afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

[Eldan]

Well, it would be an impossibly large project, but if you killed every creature of a given alignment in the (infinite) multiverse, and stopped everyone else fro mbelieving that alignment existed, you could probably harm or even destroy an outer plane.

Of course, the important word here is "infinity". You'd also have infinite numbers of things opposing you.

[afroakuma]

Well, it would be an impossibly large project, but if you killed every creature of a given alignment in the (infinite) multiverse, and stopped everyone else fro mbelieving that alignment existed, you could probably harm or even destroy an outer plane.

Of course, the important word here is "infinity". You'd also have infinite numbers of things opposing you.

You'd reduce its complexity. The plane itself would continue to exist without some means of actually causing it to cease to be, and at some point you'd get gods against you too.

Not to mention, people can change alignment.

Thing is, though, that Outer Planes aren't purely sustained by belief; their ability to remain diverse is. It's conceivable that you could, for example, collapse Elysium down to one layer, but the work required to move even a single layer (especially of a purely-aligned plane) is greater with every layer eliminated, and going from 1 to 0 is the sort of non-thing where the plane's own existence shrugs off losses.

Then there's the issue that you can't destroy any one plane. If Celestia were melted down, Arcadia and Bytopia would rebuild it. Creating a vacuum causes things to fill the void.

[Menteith]

Is it possible to seal a plane entirely, or even remove it from the Great Wheel?

Is there any knowledge (speculative or otherwise) of planes off the Wheel (either "drifting" in the Far Realm or an entire other planar cosmology)?

[afroakuma]

Is it possible to seal a plane entirely, or even remove it from the Great Wheel?

I'm going to assume that your questions refer to Outer Planes.

"Seal" in what regard? There is no magic that can lock down portals across an infinite landscape, nor would it help given that there are other methods of transport that don't follow conventional portal "physics" - planar rivers, Olympus, Yggdrasil and the Infinite Staircase, not to mention Sigil.

Similarly, you can't dislodge a part of the Great Wheel without breaking the multiverse itself. There's a certain Lady who would like to have words with you if you try.

Is there any knowledge (speculative or otherwise) of planes off the Wheel (either "drifting" in the Far Realm or an entire other planar cosmology)?

Well, there are of course the "alternate" cosmologies of Eberron, 3E FR and the like; whether or not they are truly alternate depends on how you choose to interpret them, of course (and you can get to both cosmologies via the Deep Ethereal/Plane of Shadow/Astral Plane in any event).

Planes from the old multiverse and other aberrations may continue to exist in dimensional cracks and Outside (what one might call the "Near Realm" and "Middle Realm" from a figurative standpoint) but searching for planes without the structure of the Great Wheel is a very dangerous proposition. Entities such as keepers or Pandorym seem to come from such planes, and the mysterious chososion likewise is believed to originate in an unknown plane or non-plane realm (called the "Macroverse" in such theories). Of course, chososions may simply originate in the Ordial Plane.

There are a few that may or may not know of other planes and previous orders of the multiverse, but by ancient treaty discussion of such topics is forbidden.

[Menteith]

I'm going to assume that your questions refer to Outer Planes.

Primarily, though I would also be interested in what would occur to the Prime if an Inner plane was destroyed/negated (How would the concept of "death" change if the Negative Energy Plane was nullified, for example. Is "death" or entropy possible without the NEP, would reality simple shatter apart without such a core component, would the nature of reality warp such that it no longer needs Negative Energy, and so on).

There are a few that may or may not know of other planes and previous orders of the multiverse, but by ancient treaty discussion of such topics is forbidden.

Is there a treaty in a literal sense (such as the Pact Primordial) or in an unspoken agreement among higher powers? In either case, what beings are responsible for enforcement, and how did it come about?

For the record, most of your answers are being used to directly help me write a campaign, and I want you to know how much I appreciate this!

[afroakuma]

Primarily, though I would also be interested in what would occur to the Prime if an Inner plane was destroyed/negated (How would the concept of "death" change if the Negative Energy Plane was nullified, for example. Is "death" or entropy possible without the NEP, would reality simple shatter apart without such a core component, would the nature of reality warp such that it no longer needs Negative Energy, and so on).

Inner Planes cannot be destroyed; they mix with contaminants and push them "outward." It might be interesting to see what occurs if you strike at the metaphysical "conflux" of all the Inner Planes, but such a feat would be very perilous and wouldn't involve damage to the Planes themselves...

Is there a treaty in a literal sense (such as the Pact Primordial) or in an unspoken agreement among higher powers? In either case, what beings are responsible for enforcement, and how did it come about?

There is indeed. It's called the Draeden Compact, and its signatories are the devetes of the Astral Plane, the githzerai of Limbo, the keepers of who knows where, the mapmakers of Pandemonium and the rilmani of the Outlands. It has not been seen "enforced," but it's likely that the keepers, given their nature, are in some way responsible for whatever enforcement clause lies within the Compact. Given the current racial insanity permeating the devetes, it is possible that at some point they attempted to breach the Compact in some way, though this is absolute conjecture on my part.

[Menteith]

Inner Planes cannot be destroyed; they mix with contaminants and push them "outward." It might be interesting to see what occurs if you strike at the metaphysical "conflux" of all the Inner Planes, but such a feat would be very perilous and wouldn't involve damage to the Planes themselves...

I'm not sure I understand. Where (or likely more accurately, what) is the conflux point, and if one cannot (feasibly) destroy, seal, or effect a change of the Great Wheel, what would a strike on it be?

[afroakuma]

I'm not sure I understand. Where (or likely more accurately, what) is the conflux point, and if one cannot (feasibly) destroy, seal, or effect a change of the Great Wheel, what would a strike on it be?

There is, theoretically, a point at the metaphysical center of the Inner Planes where they all touch. This should by rights be the Prime Material Plane (the realization of the combined fundamentals of existence) except... it isn't. There exists a metaphysical centerpoint at the place where Dust, Steam and Shadow once existed apart, and it may be the key to pushing outside the known multiverse... or doing untold devastation in this one.

[123456789blaaa]

Are there half-fiend children of the Demon Princes running around? What about children of their aspects?

Would Obox-ob gift his venom to his intelligent servitors? If so, what would they have to do to earn it?

What is Juiblex's abyssal layer like?

Where did Kyuss worms come from? Did Kyuss create them? Did the first come form the far realm? (I'm sure I heard that somewhere...)

EDIT: What is the definition of "fiend"? Is an aspect of Tiamat one?

[Sgt. Cookie]

"This [multiverse]" how many are there?!

Better question, how do you even have multiple multiverses?

[afroakuma]

Are there half-fiend children of the Demon Princes running around? What about children of their aspects?

Oh, there are a couple, but most of their children who are currently alive are full fiends.

Would Obox-ob gift his venom to his intelligent servitors? If so, what would they have to do to earn it?

In small doses, it's certainly possible, but given its powers I believe it requires a bit of his own personal strength to keep its potency outside the Abyss; not to mention, it's a part of him and could be abused. It would take great trust or need for him to give that out. I would imagine that his servitors have been given alchemical mixtures containing it, things they would have found great and terrible uses for...

What is Juiblex's abyssal layer like?

Juiblex actually occupies two layers. The first is Shedaklah, the 222nd layer, a foul place of bogs, fungus forests, toxic green skies and mud-brown clouds. Everything is moist and coated in a thin film of vileness. It's flooded with plant and fungus creatures there to pay homage to the master of its surface, Zuggtmoy. In the caverns below lie the slime servants of Juiblex, who have seized portions of the surface and wage war on Zuggtmoy's territories. Shedaklah has the minor positive-dominant trait.

Juiblex himself holds court in a far deeper realm; the 528th layer, occasionally attested as Molor, the Stinking Realm, which has been charitably described as the world's biggest garbage mound. Here in his realm of pillars, cyclopean stonework, pools and refuse dwells Juiblex, surrounded by his slime minions and such demons as have been pressed into his service.

Where did Kyuss worms come from? Did Kyuss create them? Did the first come form the far realm? (I'm sure I heard that somewhere...)

Kyuss is a noted creator of various forms of life (and unlife). Kyuss worms are likely more of his work.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I was wondering something, are there any places in the abyss/hells/evil alligned plane that would be considered pleasant by most Prime material standards?

[afroakuma]

"This [multiverse]" how many are there?!

Better question, how do you even have multiple multiverses?

Same way you have multiple universes . Or multiple galaxies. Or multiple continents. That last is probably the easiest way to envision it, really.

[afroakuma]

I was wondering something, are there any places in the abyss/hells/evil alligned plane that would be considered pleasant by most Prime material standards?

Well, let's see. If you can get down to the Seventh Hell, the cities are wondrous, if strange and terrifying. In particular, Grenpoli is perfectly safe and not particularly horrible - it's just extremely strict. Both Yggdrasil and Mount Olympus have their roots in the Gray Waste, and sections of each are pretty tolerable, though you'd still rather be further up if you could help it. Graz'zt's triple realm, Azzagrat, is tremendously "safe," and though it's creepy, unnerving and cosmically bizarre, it's a massive marketplace where fortunes are made and lost in a fashion generally considered "fair." Any trader who can get the six-fingered mark of Graz'zt to display is protected from thievery and thuggery. Shendilavri looks like a paradise, but one shouldn't be fooled. The nastiest of them is Vallashan, an Abyssal layer that's temporarily peaceful, as long as you come at the right time and don't stay long.

Gehenna and Carceri are both built to unleash just steadily worse torments on visitors, no help there. The exception to all of the above, of course, would be divine realms. Some gods of the Lower Planes keep realms that are quite tolerable for Primes.

[Chilingsworth]

What about Androlynne (layer 471), and the layer that draws goody-twoshoes to attempt "cleansing it" as a form of trap? Are any places on either of those layers hospitible?

Also, what about layer 77, called the "Backdoor to Paradise" and its two lords the Munkir and Nekir, white and black guardians? All I know about them is their entries in the "Lords of the Abyss" table near the back of Fiendish Codex 1. But I figure there has to be a story worth telling about them.

[afroakuma]

What about Androlynne (layer 471), and the layer that draws goody-twoshoes to attempt "cleansing it" as a form of trap? Are any places on either of those layers hospitible?

The latter would be Vallashan. And I don't consider any obyrith's personal child-hunting ground to be "hospitable." That may be just me, though.

Also, what about layer 77, called the "Backdoor to Paradise" and its two lords the Munkir and Nekir, white and black guardians? All I know about them is their entries in the "Lords of the Abyss" table near the back of Fiendish Codex 1. But I figure there has to be a story worth telling about them.

From what I understand of the Backdoor/Gate of Heaven, it's a pretty grim lot with a portal to the Upper Planes. There's nothing in canon about these two apart from their token appearances in various lists, but there is an image of the two struggling against Azor'alq, a Greyhawk hero-deity, in a pretty barren place.

[afroakuma]

On a side note, I'm pleased with the response to this thread. I hope it's proving helpful to people.

[Chilingsworth]

On a side note, I'm pleased with the response to this thread. I hope it's proving helpful to people.

I'm sure found your explination of the binding process helpful. Also, this thread on the whole is very interesting, and thanks for the link to mapping the infinite.

[afroakuma]

Well that's good to hear.

[Chilingsworth]

Ok, inspired by a post in another thread.

What happens if a mindless creature is put on the plane of air, or another plane with subjective gravity? Does this change if the creature in question is controled by a sentient creature?

[afroakuma]

Ok, inspired by a post in another thread.

What happens if a mindless creature is put on the plane of air, or another plane with subjective gravity? Does this change if the creature in question is controled by a sentient creature?

A mindless creature is not sentient and cannot determine its own subjective gravity. It experiences no gravity on a plane of subjective directional gravity.

The second question is debatable. One could consider it to be like attending to an object; that is to say, giving it a "push" and letting inertia do the rest. The question that would raise is at what point the control flags. Technically speaking, a nonsentient creature cannot be given gravity on a plane of subjective directional gravity, but if you wanted to rule otherwise as a DM, you could probably figure out a house rule involving the need to make Wisdom checks for nonsentient creatures you're supervising.

[willpell]

You don't have to speak 2e to adapt or be inspired by the fluff.

True, but I have a tendency to get very hung up on details that most could figure out without much trouble. To use Eldan's example, if I read that the fires of some place deal 2d6 damage, I can't realistically figure out what sorts of creatures can survive a tromp through those flames relatively unscathed because I don't know what the hit point ranges on typical lifeforms are in this edition. If I'm in the wrong sort of a mood I can get entirely and completely confusticated over such a triviality. Even converting 3.0 to 3.5 is a tall order for me, alas.

If Zargon were what the book claims him to be (he's not), he'd be the thing that most terrifies demons and devils.

What is the thing that most terrifies demons and devils? If the book (which I haven't read) says that Zargon is that thing, how do you know otherwise? An earlier or later book?

Better question, how do you even have multiple multiverses?

That's simple enough. A multiverse is a set of connected universes which obey a single (however complex, self-contradictory, and subject to change) set of rules or standards or whatever you want to call them. D&D's Great Wheel is at least one such multiverse, but if you decide that Neth, the Plane that Lives is a layer of the Abyss which was dislodged and started wandering around loose, that's part of the truth of your one specific multiverse. Then if you want to later say that Neth is some wizard's Genesis demiplane that outlived him, that can be true, but in a different multiverse, one where the Abyss never contained the future Neth. So there can be multiple Great Wheel multiverses, and there can be other multiverses that aren't Great Wheels (the last chapter of the MOTP presents numerous possibilities, and of course you can always just ignore the books and make up whatever you like). I've previously proposed the term "Pantoverse" (not very good Greek; "Panopliverse" might be preferable) to refer to a set of connected multiverses, in case it's possible to travel between multiple versions of the same multiverse or between different, explicitly non-interacting multiverses (which necessarily means your own ability to interact with them is sharply limited at best; you might be able to do no more than look around, and even that might be injuncted by whatever powers are responsible for maintaining the separation).

[afroakuma]

What is the thing that most terrifies demons and devils?

McDonalds franchises. Lysol. See, you thought I'd put the real answer here, but then I didn't.

If the book (which I haven't read) says that Zargon is that thing, how do you know otherwise? An earlier or later book?

Yes.

[Lord_Gareth]

Would a large-scale convergence between two Inner Planes just "strengthen" the appropriate quasi of paraelemental plane, or would it have a different effect? What would happen if a large-scale convergence happened between an Inner Plane and an Outer Plane?

[afroakuma]

Would a large-scale convergence between two Inner Planes just "strengthen" the appropriate quasi of paraelemental plane, or would it have a different effect?

The border region would certainly encroach and deepen for a time, but the Inner Planes can push back against larger-scale convergence. When that happens, typically "pockets" of each plane launch into the other, and the convergence subsides. This is often how you find solid ground on the Plane of Air, for example, and is a major reason for breathable pockets on other planes.

What would happen if a large-scale convergence happened between an Inner Plane and an Outer Plane?

Well, it can't. Planar "physics" don't work that way.

[Lord_Gareth]

Well, it can't. Planar "physics" don't work that way.

Ah, a clarification - I was speaking more of a forced convergence, such as one might find on Eberron. Now, if such a feat is impossible by magic then I understand entirely, since I've yet to read of even a forced convergence of two planes that don't already share a border of some variety (or are on Eberron with its unique cosmology).

[afroakuma]

Ah, a clarification - I was speaking more of a forced convergence, such as one might find on Eberron. Now, if such a feat is impossible by magic then I understand entirely, since I've yet to read of even a forced convergence of two planes that don't already share a border of some variety (or are on Eberron with its unique cosmology).

Impossible.

[Lord_Gareth]

Aside from Vecna and Soth (may he rot in hell), have any Darklords canonically escaped the Demiplane of Dread in a fashion that didn't involve their permanent death?

[Arcanist]

Soth (may he rot in hell)

whats wrong with Lord Soth? Whats the matter? not feeling any love for the poster boy of the Death Knight?

[afroakuma]

Aside from Vecna and Soth, have any Darklords canonically escaped the Demiplane of Dread in a fashion that didn't involve their permanent death?

Officially it's just those two.