I'm feeling turn based and fantastical

[RPGuru1331]

Mostly in terms of the overland/tactical battle map deal, and the inventory links back and forth between them. JA 2 doesn't seem to really use a party based AI for the overland stuff though, certainly not to the extent that M&B does. Nevertheless, there's a reasonable amount in common between the two.

Ah, I thought you were being a little more literal and meant the engines were similar or something. Which really should have seemed more obviously not what was intended... It is a shame that MnB is relatively alone in the kind of overworld map stuff it has. It's obviously not the most complex system, but it still worked out pretty well.

So what kind of male characters are sexy for female readers, in a fantasy setting? Honest question because I'm a (hobby) comic book artist.

Women have less socially enforced standards on what to find attractive, so you get more leeway on what to make. The aesthetic I hear amongst people I know is indeed more towards the stereotypical, more 'androgynous' builds. A little more slender, a bit longer hair, not piles of muscle.

[Tengu_temp]

The one problem I see with a JA-style fantasy TBT game, is the prevalence of melee rather than range combat in fantasy. How would that translate into JA-style TBT?

Play Final Fantasy Tactics, Disgaea or Fire Emblem. Or Age of Wonders 2, from PC games.

I think this sort of game would be ideal for porting the D&D 4e ruleset to videogames. Maybe if enough people badger WotC we can get it done eventually.

Yeah, good luck with that.

[RPGuru1331]

I'm not sure I'd agree with fire emblem, with the way people keep emphasizing terrain - You can shoot through walls, after all! But yeah, the standard Strategy-RPG titles can do some nifty stuff. One I recall, called Hoshigami, even used a system more or less akin to TUs/AP.

[warty goblin]

I think this sort of game would be ideal for porting the D&D 4e ruleset to videogames. Maybe if enough people badger WotC we can get it done eventually.

Eh, D&D is so entirely dull, and the tactics so deeply artificial, I'd rather see something both fresh and much more organic.

I've been thinking how to come up with a decent, actually playable melee system for a while now. Rolling attack to beat a fixed number doesn't do it, and tossing in a bunch of abilities to modify that roll still comes back to the same problem that it's boring and flavorless.

At this point the best idea I have going is using opposed dice rolls to pay for different abilities, probably using non-numeric dice. Dice for weapon combat, footwork, etc are paired off, and the winner in each category gets to play an ability. Each ability requires so many symbols on the corresponding dice category to activate, and may get bonuses if you have a lot of the relevant ability. In order to simulate exhaustion, I'm thinking of requiring an ability to be refreshed before reuse. A fighter can refresh one ability a turn, but use two or three, so an all-out assault can leave a person unable to defend themselves or capitalize on an opening.

So for instance a slightly agile fighter with a sword might have a single six sided dice in sword combat labeled say (blank , single slash, single slash, double slash, single thrust, double thrust) , and another in footwork (blank, defense step, defense step. offense step, offense step, offense step). Her enemy, a clumsy orc with an axe, has only a single dice for axe combat. Due to the orc's greater strength, and different weapon his dice is (blank, single strike, single strike, double strike, double strike, trip/hook shield).

The fighter attacks, and rolls single slash, defense step. The orc rolls double strike. Since two strikes beats one slash, the orc gets to play an offensive ability. Being a stupid orc, he ignores the superior footwork of his adversary, and goes for a powerful damage ability. Let's call it Overhand Chop, which costs two strikes to activate, and does 5 damage.

The fighter however can use her superior footwork to activate Hasty Dodge, which lets her subtract 2*Defensive Footwork from any melee damage done by a single enemy. She escapes with a single point of damage.

Next turn the fighter rolls double thrust, offensive strike, while the orc gets only a single strike. Double thrust beats single strike, so the fighter can play Torso Thrust (a sword ability, costs 1 thrust, does 3 + number of thrusts damage) and, again taking advantage of her superior footwork, adds Solid Blow (+3 damage, a footwork ability). The orc doesn't have any armor, and gets skewered for 8 damage, enough to kill.


The idea is that it's fast and allows the combatants active control over how they fight. The dice and fatigue mechanic add luck, and keep a fighter from spamming the ability turn after turn, and ability activation adds a very reactive skill component. Plus there's lots of different avenues of advancement. More advanced fighters could have access to more dice, or better dice, and better, more expensive abilities to go with them. A skilled warrior thus isn't just a low-level schmuck with a big attack bonus and a heap of HP, but can obviously do things the schmuck can't.

[MLai]

RPGuru: Women have less socially enforced standards on what to find attractive, so you get more leeway on what to make. The aesthetic I hear amongst people I know is indeed more towards the stereotypical, more 'androgynous' builds. A little more slender, a bit longer hair, not piles of muscle.

How about "profession"? For example, is the sword-and-sandal barbarian automatically a turn-off? Or is that simply because when an artist draws a semi-naked nomadic tough fighter, he automatically draws piles of muscle?
And how about personality? Again, is the barbarian an automatic turn-off because of his personality tropes?
For example, is Khal Drogo (Game Of Thrones) sexy? I'm saying if he didn't rape a girl as his intro to the viewers (I haven't read the books).

Tengu: Play Final Fantasy Tactics, Disgaea or Fire Emblem. Or Age of Wonders 2, from PC games.

I've played FFT, and it doesn't give me the feeling of "Jagged Alliance but with swords." Probably because when I hear "Jagged Alliance but with swords," I'm thinking more realistic game mechanics. Like LOTR low-magic. Y'know, a game where the crouching-action mechanic does something.

Warty: I've been thinking how to come up with a decent, actually playable melee system for a while now.

This is actually a nice system! Allows a heap of flexibility when fighting in small groups.

Based on my gameplay experiences, it feels like it takes elements from Dungeon Dice Monsters (never played it but loved the rules) and LOTR Tradeable Miniatures Game (or Heroclix which probably comes closer, but I loved LOTR TMG). Oh, and Heroscape (the game that comes with terrain hexes for you to make a 3D game board with).

The cool mechanic that exists in LOTR TMG is that, your hero may be well-nigh unbeatable when facing off against 1-2 low-level mooks, but if he's tactically stupid enough to let 10 mooks surround him he's dead, even if they're just low-level mooks with a single die and no special abilities. And a hero throwing himself into a large brawl (combat chain) can lend his special abilities and dice pool to it to decisively turn the tide of the brawl, but risks dying if the opponents decides to concentrate all the damage onto the hero instead of just killing some Gondorian mook soldiers. That feels realistic to me.

[RPGuru1331]

How about "profession"? For example, is the sword-and-sandal barbarian automatically a turn-off? Or is that simply because when an artist draws a semi-naked nomadic tough fighter, he automatically draws piles of muscle?

To me, but some people prefer that sort of thing. But such a barbarian would still, almost certainly, be unreasonably attractive for, yanno, a barbarian. Which should surprise nobody, if the objective were parity, and yet...

And how about personality? Again, is the barbarian an automatic turn-off because of his personality tropes?

That's a lot more likely, at least, than just 'background' doing it (assuming the background comes with hotness). Avoid the mistake of thinking overwhelmingly male hollywood writers/wherever TV writers work know jack about 'what women want', and you'll likely do okay, but if the person's supposed to be sexy, don't make them utter ogres to be around. There's a market for nearly everything, but some are incredibly teensy.

[factotum]

No, it's:

Move/Move
Move/Action
Action

Isn't just "Move" a possibility as well if the character is moving too far the first time to get a second move? They call it "dashing", I think...

[Triaxx]

Yes and no. You can actually make two separate move actions. Or one single move action using both actions. The only difference is whether or not you stop between them. If you don't it's dashing.

[Brother Oni]

All Orcs Must Die or its sequel? You get to shoot orcs in the face, it has elves and it's turn based. Kind of. *Tries to keep a straight face*

The aesthetic I hear amongst people I know is indeed more towards the stereotypical, more 'androgynous' builds. A little more slender, a bit longer hair, not piles of muscle.

A question - when you say 'piles of muscles' do you mean bulk (e.g. Arnold Scharzenegger), definition (e.g. Bruce Lee) or a combination?

Spoilered for size:

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Edit: Fixed link

[RPGuru1331]

I assume that first picture is a doctored picture to mock Rob Liefeld*. Bruce Lee's build could probably work though, at least from what a few friends/relations/mother have said about other folks. That picture's not likely to, I suspect, but the build, definitely.

*Not really, but it's fun to say.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Getting off the subject of what makes men attractive (although I must agree that muscles are sorely overrated in this area), I'd like to suggest the Geneforge series. The entire thing, all five of them, is only $20 on Steam*. The graphics are a bit dated, since the first game was released at the very end of 2001 (and also, Spiderweb Software tends to focus more on the story and gameplay), but they're definitely passable. Although I'm only partway through the first game, I'm having a lot of fun.

*EDIT: Apparently, it's much less on GOG, so that's always good. I think the series, from what I've seen so far, is definitely worth $20... but $7.50 is even better!

Also, I feel as though I should mention that the setting isn't exactly the typical fantasy setting... it's a bit more like magi-tech, but at the same time... not. It should be close enough to a normal high-fantasy setting that it won't be a problem, though.

[factotum]

A question - when you say 'piles of muscles' do you mean bulk (e.g. Arnold Scharzenegger), definition (e.g. Bruce Lee) or a combination?

Arnold Schwarzenegger was always about definition, not bulk--Mr. Universe contestants are really not "piles of muscle", they're about increasing the size of particular muscle groups. Have a look at the guys who participate in World's Strongest Men competitions; they really *are* piles of muscle, and some of them you'd even call fat, but you need to have a physique like that to pull a truck along a road or bench-press 300+ kg weights. A Mr. Universe contestant who tried that would probably herniate their abdominal muscles.

[warty goblin]

Getting off the subject of what makes men attractive (although I must agree that muscles are sorely overrated in this area), I'd like to suggest the Geneforge series. The entire thing, all five of them, is only $20 on Steam*. The graphics are a bit dated, since the first game was released at the very end of 2001 (and also, Spiderweb Software tends to focus more on the story and gameplay), but they're definitely passable. Although I'm only partway through the first game, I'm having a lot of fun.

*EDIT: Apparently, it's much less on GOG, so that's always good. I think the series, from what I've seen so far, is definitely worth $20... but $7.50 is even better!

Also, I feel as though I should mention that the setting isn't exactly the typical fantasy setting... it's a bit more like magi-tech, but at the same time... not. It should be close enough to a normal high-fantasy setting that it won't be a problem, though.

And bought.

So far this thread has netted me:

• Geneforge 1 - 5 (GoG version, because GoG can have all my computer babies)
  
• Eador: Genesis (GoG version)
  
• (Randomly Blitzkrieg 1 and 2, because discount + tanks = sale, according to the ancient calculus)
  
• Assorted Warlock DLC (Return of Elves, Artifacts, and Armageddon)

I'm still on the fence for one of the Avernum games as well. But there's no sale on, so I'm not really in any rush for that.

So far Eador seems brilliant, if a bit odd in the interface department. Not unplayable, just a bit different than what I'm used to. The Warlock DLC looks good, it's nice to have another race in the mix, and apparently the Armageddon victory condition is very hard, which is good as I had the base game pretty well nailed down.

Thanks all for your suggestions!

[RPGuru1331]

Geneforge is on GOG? That merits a purchase, I wasn't aware it could be.

Is Eador on sale? I didn't see anything that indicated that, and absent a demo, I'm not buying it (I don't do impulse buys.)

[warty goblin]

Geneforge is on GOG? That merits a purchase, I wasn't aware it could be.

Is Eador on sale? I didn't see anything that indicated that, and absent a demo, I'm not buying it (I don't do impulse buys.)

It's not on sale, but at the moment it's still cheaper than the Geneforge games, which are 50% off. The (very) little I've played so far is quite excellent, like a more complex Age of Wonders sort of deal. I'm not sure the combat is quite as good, but the overland seems much deeper. Mind you, to me Age of Wonder is pretty much the thing when it comes to fantasy TBS combat.

[Ashery]

Geneforge is on GOG? That merits a purchase, I wasn't aware it could be.

Is Eador on sale? I didn't see anything that indicated that, and absent a demo, I'm not buying it (I don't do impulse buys.)

It's $6 and has as much content as games that cost $50 a decade ago.

It's an absolutely fantastic game and the first one in years to pull me into multiple full day sessions.

[RPGuru1331]

It's $6 and has as much content as games that cost $50 a decade ago.

It's an absolutely fantastic game and the first one in years to pull me into multiple full day sessions.

I'm glad you feel that way and all, but I don't know you, and I don't know how much your tastes sync up with mine. I don't do impulse buys.

[Ashery]

I'm glad you feel that way and all, but I don't know you, and I don't know how much your tastes sync up with mine. I don't do impulse buys.

But you asked if it was on sale.

[RPGuru1331]

But you asked if it was on sale.

Yeah, out of curiosity - 7 bucks is pretty low. If it lacks a demo, I'm not getting it until and unless I check it out somehow. Which likely means 'never'.

[MLai]

I say if you're in no hurry, then wait for the modern "remake": Eador Masters Of The Broken World. It's by the same developers I think, with updated 3D graphics that has an enchanting European fairy tale feel.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yeah, out of curiosity - 7 bucks is pretty low. If it lacks a demo, I'm not getting it until and unless I check it out somehow. Which likely means 'never'.

Oh, come on. Is it really an impulse buy if it's cheap, has a high rating, and other people are speaking highly of it? That's leaving out a lot of good games just because they're old and/or indie.

[Toastkart]

I've kind of been in the mood for a similar type game, but all of the suggestions so far aren't quite what I'm looking for. I could really go for something that's a cross between Final Fantasy Tactics and Brigandine. Is there anything like that out there, or are these sorts of games it?

To more fine tune what I'm looking for, I want something that has deep customization of both heroes and minions, tactical combat, and minimal upkeep or empire building. Good story is a plus, but not a requirement.

Oh, come on. Is it really an impulse buy if it's cheap, has a high rating, and other people are speaking highly of it? That's leaving out a lot of good games just because they're old and/or indie.

I'd definitely call it an impulse buy. All of the suggestions made here I would shy away from without further checking into them. Just because a game has a high rating and is spoken highly of doesn't mean that it will be well suited for me (or for anyone else). Fallout 1 and 2 are critically acclaimed by just about everyone, but I wasted money on them because when I played I felt like I was fighting the engine rather than playing the game and eventually gave up in frustration. Nothing wrong with that, or with being cautious. Not all games are well suited for everyone.

[factotum]

To more fine tune what I'm looking for, I want something that has deep customization of both heroes and minions, tactical combat, and minimal upkeep or empire building. Good story is a plus, but not a requirement.

Nearest I can think of would be King's Bounty: The Legend and its sequel Armoured Princess. It's mainly the hero that's customisable, but you can choose from a wide variety of troops to accompany them, which is almost as good as customising them.

[Divayth Fyr]

Nearest I can think of would be King's Bounty: The Legend and its sequel Armoured Princess. It's mainly the hero that's customisable, but you can choose from a wide variety of troops to accompany them, which is almost as good as customising them.

I'd second this - the third game (Warriors of the North) came out recently - it's also worth playing (especcially for those, who liked the previous two - while the game has some flaws, they did improve a few things (the classes & the rage system to name two) and added some new toys (vikings, rune magic, item crafting).

[RPGuru1331]

That's leaving out a lot of good games just because they're old and/or indie.

What does being old or indie have to do with not buying a game if I can't demo it or get an opinion off of someone with tastes like mine? If anything, Indie games on Steam are more, not less, likely to give demos.

@Evrine: This is probably a wash, but Tactics Ogre?

[warty goblin]

I've kind of been in the mood for a similar type game, but all of the suggestions so far aren't quite what I'm looking for. I could really go for something that's a cross between Final Fantasy Tactics and Brigandine. Is there anything like that out there, or are these sorts of games it?

To more fine tune what I'm looking for, I want something that has deep customization of both heroes and minions, tactical combat, and minimal upkeep or empire building. Good story is a plus, but not a requirement.

Try the original Age of Wonders. It's less deep on the minion customization, but gives you access to a really wide variety of them, with a reasonable amount of hero customization. Plus the combat is a lot of fun. The campaign is pretty decent as well, and some of the later battles can get fairly massive. Bodies everywhere by the end of 'em.

And there's a demo.

Barring that, if you're willing to stray outside of the fantasy realm, either Jagged Alliance 2 or Jagged Alliance: Back in Action could work. The first is the turn-based classic, the second is the real time remake. Personally I actually prefer the more recent one, as the fairly good realtime-with-pause system allows for better and more believable tactics. There's some slightly annoying bits with the interface, but it makes things like simultaneous breach and clear operations not only possible, but reasonably easy to pull off.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Barring that, if you're willing to stray outside of the fantasy realm, either Jagged Alliance 2 or Jagged Alliance: Back in Action could work. The first is the turn-based classic, the second is the real time remake. Personally I actually prefer the more recent one, as the fairly good realtime-with-pause system allows for better and more believable tactics. There's some slightly annoying bits with the interface, but it makes things like simultaneous breach and clear operations not only possible, but reasonably easy to pull off.

*decides to look up*

...Okay. JA2 is another TBS wargame to add to my list, and I like the possibilities of RTS + pause (so, y'know, you can all act at the same time, making RL tactics more applicable to the game).

[warty goblin]

*decides to look up*

...Okay. JA2 is another TBS wargame to add to my list, and I like the possibilities of RTS + pause (so, y'know, you can all act at the same time, making RL tactics more applicable to the game).

That's one great advantage of the RTP system. No longer can you do stupid crap like wander into a hallway and shotgun three dudes guarding said hallway, safe in the knowledge that they'll all be full of .00 buck by the time you run out of AP. Trying that in Back in Action is a fast route to a bodybag.

The other thing that Back in Action does very nicely is let you plan out moves for your entire fireteam in advance, and then sync them all up so they execute some parts of the plan together -e.g. toss the grenade into the room right after the other guy opens the door. The planning system shows you line of sight for each step of the way, so it makes planning shots easy. Obviously because things can go all pear-shaped halfway through a plan, you can pause and edit said plan at any time.


If you really really like the combination of RTP combat, surplus Soviet assault weapons and banana republics, try 7.62: High Calibre. It's got the deepest infantry combat model of just about anything ever - it models changes in reload time based on where you store your ammunition for crying out loud. Just keep in mind the rest of the game is crap.

[Toastkart]

Nearest I can think of would be King's Bounty: The Legend and its sequel Armoured Princess. It's mainly the hero that's customisable, but you can choose from a wide variety of troops to accompany them, which is almost as good as customising them.

I'd second this - the third game (Warriors of the North) came out recently - it's also worth playing (especcially for those, who liked the previous two - while the game has some flaws, they did improve a few things (the classes & the rage system to name two) and added some new toys (vikings, rune magic, item crafting).

I checked out a few videos on these and it doesn't seem like what I'm after. It looks, at least from what I've seen so far, very similar to homm, and it appears as if your hero isn't even on the battlefield but rather stands on the sidelines. Thanks anyway.

@Evrine: This is probably a wash, but Tactics Ogre?

It is, unfortunately, as it looks like it could be really interesting. I don't own any handheld systems, and acquiring the ps version would be ridiculously expensive.

Try the original Age of Wonders. It's less deep on the minion customization, but gives you access to a really wide variety of them, with a reasonable amount of hero customization. Plus the combat is a lot of fun. The campaign is pretty decent as well, and some of the later battles can get fairly massive. Bodies everywhere by the end of 'em.

I tried the demo out, and boy is that a clunky interface. I couldn't figure out how to get my elven archers to fire their bows. It also took me entirely too many turns to figure out how to create more units. Thanks anyway.

Barring that, if you're willing to stray outside of the fantasy realm, either Jagged Alliance 2 or Jagged Alliance: Back in Action could work. The first is the turn-based classic, the second is the real time remake. Personally I actually prefer the more recent one, as the fairly good realtime-with-pause system allows for better and more believable tactics. There's some slightly annoying bits with the interface, but it makes things like simultaneous breach and clear operations not only possible, but reasonably easy to pull off.

I'll keep it in mind, but for right now my non-fantasy urgings are being satisfied by xcom enemy unkown. Thanks.

[RPGuru1331]

The PSX version is easily emulatable, but nowhere near as customizable, so that's still no good. Ah well.