High Seas Ubermount - need some ideas

[Nightgaun7]

So I was working on a few ideas for a backup character for a campaign I'm in, on the off-chance we turn into ghouls (I'd be a ghast).

One idea that really caught my eye was the ubermount. We're in a ocean-going campaign, and I think it would be absolutely awesome to have a halfling charging around on his mount on the deck of the ship. Also, one of the current characters is a chaotic neutral halfling, and I think the character of an enthusiastic halfling knight would be hilarious, bouncing off him.

There are a couple of issues I've run across in researching it, though.
1) Size of the mount - there doesn't seem to be a consensus on whether or not your mount gets bigger as you gain levels. Ideally, there would be some way to have my mount go from medium to large as the situation needed, but if not, I may have to stick with a medium mount.

2) given that it's an ocean-going campaign, at some point I may need my mount to go underwater. Are there any creatures that are good both above and below water? A flying speed would be good too, but is slightly less vital. One way to solve this might be the Aquatic Paladin ACF, but I'm not sure how this interacts with other things, given that it primarily appears to give you mounts that work in the water. The Waverider PrC from Savage Species has the same issue.

As a side question, I see a lot of people taking two levels in Beastrider. But insofar as I can tell, all that gets you is Alertness, which is pointless since you're just going to get it in a level or two from Halfling Outrider. Can anyone explain what the deal is?

[HunterOfJello]

Are you talking about the Beastmaster PrC? If so, people probably dip into that to get a fast-tracked animal companion from a class that has full bab and 2 good saves. Beastmaster gets an animal companion as if they were a druid of their beastmaster level +3.

A Beastmaster + Wild Outrider combo would be used to get a fast-tracked animal companion, then give it abilities that help you move around on it while mounted.

[Nightgaun7]

Yes, I get why they take the first level of Beastmaster. But why the second? Like I said, all I can see getting from it is Alertness, which you would then get from Halfling Outrider.

[Vaz]

First I thought of is a Terlen - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/m...pl?name=Terlen

Fly and Swim speeds.

Problem is; Magical Beast, Always NE, Extraplanar.

[Nightgaun7]

First I thought of is a Terlen - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/m...pl?name=Terlen

Fly and Swim speeds.

Problem is; Magical Beast, Always NE, Extraplanar.

The "Classic" Ubermount is a metallic dragon. Are there any dragons that can go in the water? I'm really not familiar with D&D monsters, haven't been playing too long.

[Vaz]

Black, Green and White Dragons have a Swim speed, but only Black and Green have water Breathing.

Bronze, Gold can Swim and Water Breathe.

But still; Flying Shark.

[Nightgaun7]

Black, Green and White Dragons have a Swim speed, but only Black and Green have water Breathing.

Bronze, Gold can Swim and Water Breathe.

But still; Flying Shark.

Gold dragons have a swim speed and water breathing? Excellent! A draconic paladin for a paladin's mount! Sir Pepin thanks you.

[Vaz]

Make sure you can Water breathe yourself! Not much fun diving in with your dragon to hold your breath for 5 rounds, then drown.

[Nightgaun7]

Any ideas on the size issue?

[Urpriest]

Any ideas on the size issue?

They only grow if the base creature grows, so you'll likely be sticking with Medium. The extra HD are bonus HD, not advancement, so they don't grant size increases.

[Vaz]

You don' t want it huge. At 20 HD, a Gold Dragon is Huge. However I think a Very Young Gold Dragon (still Large, mind) is the only one you could take outside as a Dragon Cohort due to its huge Level Adjustment (12, 14, or something stupid high like so).

Still, while it is less of an issue in water based campaigns, you are shanked if an underwater cave is only 6 ft wide entrance

However it is not a Caster until it hits young, so it could do with a teleport and telepathy item to allow it to get to where the fighting is. Without the steed an ubermount sucks.

[nedz]

Why has no one mentioned Blue Whale ?
Too big perhaps ?

I'm not sure of the climate, so I'll start in the north and head south.

Something like a Shark or a Walrus would be cool — though Shark is a bit obvious. Orca maybe ?

Stingray or Dire Barracuda would be interesting choices if you are much further south.

[Nightgaun7]

Main problem is that all of those are only useful in the water. I need something that can at the least swim and walk, and preferably fly so that getting it onto the boat, onto shore, etc. isn't a huge pain.

[Palanan]

Clearly, you want an Aiwha.

[Srasy]

What about a Giant crocodile that you give animal devotion? and just give it some long term way to stay underwater forever?

[Kuulvheysoon]

My vote is on croc or a Polar Bear.

[Shalist]

Its worth noting that bronze dragons are the pirate-stomping 'ocean dragons,' that their lightning breath might work better underwater than a gold's fire breath (*shrug* dunno), and that they start gaining racial casting* and other stuff two HD / ECL sooner than golds.

Regarding any sorcerer casting it might get:

As noted in the Monster Manual, creatures with innate spellcasting abilities, such as dragons, do not require material components to cast their spells. If a spell has a focus, however, a dragon or other innate spellcaster must have the focus on its person. Dragons can use the Embed Spell Focus feat to satisfy this requirement.

Incidentally, 'Favorable sacrifice' is a nifty hr/lvl defensive buff that normally has a 10,000 gold material component...level 1 in 'miniatures handbook,' level 3 in spell comp, though.

Whether bonus HD from special mount / animal companion / whatever advance a dragon's innate abilities (casting, natural armor, etc) like regular racial HD is an interesting question...but for an actual, real game, sneaking in a relatively low level character with a mount that can cast 'true resurrection' without needing any material components might make the DM's book-throwing hand a bit twitchy :P

[Nightgaun7]

As a tangential question, how does Pounce work if you have it while riding a mount?

[Agent 451]

Does Pounce work underwater?

[Nightgaun7]

Don't see why not.

PS - Nice avatar. LotGH ftw

[Urpriest]

As a tangential question, how does Pounce work if you have it while riding a mount?

You get the benefits of the charge, so if you have Pounce you can make a full attack. The mount needs Pounce to get its own full attack.

Does Pounce work underwater?

Pounce doesn't literally mean you jump on top of your enemies, unless it lists itself that way.

[Agent 451]

Pounce doesn't literally mean you jump on top of your enemies, unless it lists itself that way.

Oh no, I get that. I've never noticed an underwater creature that had (or if it did, used) Pounce. I can't see a problem with it considering you can Charge underwater, I've just never actually seen it stated anywhere.

[Vaz]

Mostly because ulif you are in the water, you didn't intend to be there, so aren't designed for it. An Aboleth or other tentacle-y monster isn't going to be fun at the best of times, pounce while underwater = likely TPK.

[Nightgaun7]

I'm looking at two variations for this, after doing a bit more research, and here's what I've got:

1) the "normal" approach of paladin 5/beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10/whatever 4

and

2) A slower-starting Fighter 2/Cleric 3/Prestige Paladin 2/Beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10/whatever 2

Assuming I'll be starting play around level 8, of course.

Which leaves 2 questions - which do you think is better, and what to round out the last few levels with? It already has maxed out the Special Mount benefits, and the Animal Companion is at 17 after Natural Bond. The normal suggestion is Wild Plains Outrider, which is rather meh, since all it really does is advance your animal companion. Taking two levels in Beastmaster works, if you want the last bit of bonus for your AC, but that has the doubling-up on alertness I mentioned earlier.

Anyone got any good ideas?

[Diovid]

I'm looking at two variations for this, after doing a bit more research, and here's what I've got:

1) the "normal" approach of paladin 5/beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10/whatever 4

and

2) A slower-starting Fighter 2/Cleric 3/Prestige Paladin 2/Beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10/whatever 2

Assuming I'll be starting play around level 8, of course.

Which leaves 2 questions - which do you think is better, and what to round out the last few levels with? It already has maxed out the Special Mount benefits, and the Animal Companion is at 17 after Natural Bond. The normal suggestion is Wild Plains Outrider, which is rather meh, since all it really does is advance your animal companion. Taking two levels in Beastmaster works, if you want the last bit of bonus for your AC, but that has the doubling-up on alertness I mentioned earlier.

Anyone got any good ideas?

I don't really get the complaint here. The whole idea of supermount builds is to get a mount that's as strong as possible. Which is why the build is designed in such a way that it gets an Effective Druid Level of 21 (which means an Animal Companion with 4 HD, 4 natural armor, 2 strength and 2 dex more than you have now).

[Nightgaun7]

I don't really get the complaint here. The whole idea of supermount builds is to get a mount that's as strong as possible. Which is why the build is designed in such a way that it gets an Effective Druid Level of 21 (which means an Animal Companion with 4 HD, 4 natural armor, 2 strength and 2 dex more than you have now).

1) It's inelegant

Edit: A note on Wild Plains Outrider - the main attraction is Wild Plains Offensive, which is later essentially duplicated by Halfling Outrider. So you effectively get a ride bonus and a slightly sneakier mount.

2) I was under the impression that you can't take your animal companion into epic-level benefits, which I believe is what you have to get once you get past the 18 level mark.

3) I was asking if anyone knew of alternatives.

Perhaps there's something in Dragon?

[Nightgaun7]

Doing some more tinkering.

{table=head]Level|Class|Feats
1st |Fighter| Mounted Combat, Skill Focus (Handle Animal), Power Attack, Track
2nd |Fighter| Spirited Charge
3rd |Cleric| Holy Mount
4th |Cleric|
5th |Cleric|
6th |Prestige Paladin| Dragon Steed
7th |Prestige Paladin|
8th |Beastmaster|
9th |Prestige Ranger| Devoted Tracker
10th |Prestige Ranger| Combat Style: Ride-By Attack
11th |Halfing Outrider |
12th |Halfing Outrider |Natural Bond
13th |Halfing Outrider |
14th |Halfing Outrider |
15th |Halfing Outrider |Battle Blessing
16th |Halfing Outrider |
17th |Halfing Outrider |
18th |Halfing Outrider |Feat
19th |Halfing Outrider |
20th |Halfing Outrider |
[/table]

Now, there is a problem here: the prereqs for Prestige Ranger and Halfling outrider haven't been met. Mounted Archery and Two-Weapon Fighting/Rapidshot don't fit the concept of halfling knight-virtuous very well. Endurance and Track just suck. Skill Focus (Handle Animal) is enough of a feat tax, I say! But Track is a prereq of Devoted Tracker anyways, so I guess I'll roll with that one.

I don't mind fitting in some mounted feat for prestige ranger, but I took the ones that would probably serve as a prereq already. Is there some feat that would work with a lance or sword that would make a good substitute prereq? I was thinking cleave, perhaps, or maybe knock-back or something for lancing. Driving Attack would be great except it's got a laundry list of prereqs of its own.

My last two feats are open, but I think I'll make one of them Battle Blessing.

Assuming I manage to beg my DM to lessen these requirements, how does that look? It's both a bit more compressed in terms of feats and a bit more strung out in terms of class levels than the standard ubermount build, but I think it works pretty well and I also like that it fits the character story I have in mind, a halfling fighter who at first joins an order and then becomes a knight-errant.

[Vaz]

Endurance and Iron Will and Track are intended to be feat taxes.

You can free up Fighter 2 by taking the Lance which grants Spirited Charge with that weapon.

Problem is, you get an Ubermount Build to make a strong mount. That means sacrificing some of your own personal power; so taking things like power attack will only lower it.

How did you get 4 Feats to start with? Strongheart Halfling, and 1 Flaw? Try getting another.

Cleric 2 and 3 are dead Levels, a Druid would give you animal companion bonus, and Druid 3 would do more.

[nedz]

Ranger 3 gets you Endurance and Track. You also get a combat style feat — for which there are several options.

[Nightgaun7]

Endurance and Iron Will and Track are intended to be feat taxes.

You can free up Fighter 2 by taking the Lance which grants Spirited Charge with that weapon.

Problem is, you get an Ubermount Build to make a strong mount. That means sacrificing some of your own personal power; so taking things like power attack will only lower it.

How did you get 4 Feats to start with? Strongheart Halfling, and 1 Flaw? Try getting another.

Cleric 2 and 3 are dead Levels, a Druid would give you animal companion bonus, and Druid 3 would do more.

In terms of feat taxes, there are already 2 - Skill Focus (Handle Animal) and Track. And as for feat taxes in general, just because something has them doesn't mean it's worth anything, or vice versa. In fact it can make it useless - just look at spring attack. I'm already devoting a huge number of feats to getting the only real trick this character has going for it working. Sadly, it is RAW.

Re: Power Attack - I thought you can power attack from the back of a mount, and in case I am ever off, it will help.

I can only take 1 flaw.

Taking Druid...
1) Cleric fits the character concept
2) gets me into prestige paladin
3) 3 levels in cleric advances Cleric casting - not that it gets me tons, but it's better than splitting it up

Ranger 3 gets you Endurance and Track. You also get a combat style feat — for which there are several options.

Good point, and I guess I could cobble something together based on that, but I'm really loving how well the build I posted earlier fits the character I had in mind.

EDIT: Might as well go Ranger 4, to pick up a level of AC advancement, but then I'd still have to dip into cleric to pick up the prereqs for prestige paladin, and then I'd be having both pitiful ranger casting and pitiful cleric casting. I think having at least level 3 spells with the other progression will give me ~something~ to do in the event I'm ever unmounted (which I certainly will be, at some point)