JL8 - Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman in Grade School

[Deepbluediver]

I guess I should have checked Wikipedia, but I didn't even know Martian Manhunter's title. Vortex breath, eh...

In at least some of the comic continuities; MM is as strong as Superman. I think the shape-shifing could be the more interesting power here though.

[Othniel Edden]

Martian Manhunter has better powers than Supes but has a lamer weakness than space rocks, only to be superceeded by Wonder Woman's weakness to male intitied bondage, and Green Latern's weakness to the color yellow/wood.

[TheEmerged]

Martian Manhunter has better powers than Supes but has a lamer weakness than space rocks, only to be superceeded by Wonder Woman's weakness to male intitied bondage, and Green Latern's weakness to the color yellow/wood.

GL hasn't had the yellow weakness for several years now.

Wonder Woman hasn't had the bondage weakness for a couple of decades now (closing in on three).

Fire is still a lame weakness

[Lord Raziere]

GL hasn't had the yellow weakness for several years now.

Wonder Woman hasn't had the bondage weakness for a couple of decades now (closing in on three).

Fire is still a lame weakness

Ice and Wood elementalists would like to have a word with you.

also, anyone else with actual, well built limitations and weaknesses.

[Deepbluediver]

Martian Manhunter has better powers than Supes but has a lamer weakness than space rocks, only to be superceeded by Wonder Woman's weakness to male intitied bondage, and Green Latern's weakness to the color yellow/wood.

A lot of that stuff dates back to the silver/golden ages, when weird and illogical plot lines, characters, and discontinuity was the norm. Also, the comic-books tend to give certain characters truly absurb power levels, which I don't like because I think it makes them very hard to write stories for.

I actually prefer most of the the animated or alternative interpretations, or I just read about the Batman-style heroes.
DCAU kept Superman's speed and strength down to reasonable levels so the other heros could contribute in a meaningful way, and Young Justice only had the martian's fire vulnerability occasionally crop up, when it was dramatically appropriate.
Also, there's this JL Reboot from the author/artist of Dresden Codak, which you might or might not like, but at the very least has some interesting ideas.

[Othniel Edden]

GL hasn't had the yellow weakness for several years now.

I was listing the stuff thats been there for a while. Kyle Rainer was the first without the yellow weakness, but Alan Scott still had trouble with wood up until the new 52. The switch over to either a fuel based ring or a 24 hour time limit was significant to the character.

I know that Wonder Woman hasn't had it for a while, but its the worst weakness by far in the first of comic books.

I'd also say that they had played with the Green Martian weakness as a fear based safegaurd that kept them from them becoming eldritch horrors.

Also, missing the point. Superheroes can have lame weaknesses.

[Scowling Dragon]

Also, there's this JL Reboot from the author/artist of Dresden Codak, which you might or might not like, but at the very least has some interesting ideas.

Gah. Uncanny valley-esque effect.

Just close enough too the original interpretations too make you know immediately who that character is, yet far away enough too be creepy.

Also Superman looks very Militaristic.

Edit:

Also (His her? Don't know) Dresden Codak Style peeks through in the art very much so.

[LordChaos13]

I think the intention for Supes is 'working-class' not military though the way he holds himself doesnt really lend opposition to the military idea

[BannedInSchool]

I think the intention for Supes is 'working-class' [...]

Thus the doorman's uniform.

[Scowling Dragon]

That was the intent, but the style of clothing + that button cape thing looks INCREDIBLY militaristic. Also the stance.

Also I think I finally realized why I miss the Red Undies:

They exist too make Superman look stupid. Yup. They make him look like a dolt.

And Superman (My Superman Mind you) wants that. You know why? Because at core he is a scary grim character.

He is an alien with enough power too knock the earth out of orbit if he wanted too, and flies around the world asserting himself over earth Situations.

But (My) superman doesn't want too be a Boogeyman. He doesn't want too feel like a menace, like a force in the world that everybody stops too look at in dead silence and fear. That everybody will obey because he could pound their faces in whilst sleeping.

He wants them to know that he isn't like that. That he isn't here too be mister grim, or intense. He is here too help and make you smile. He is a force yes, but he honestly isn't a "I will push you force". He wants people too follow him because "OMG, Superman shows how being good can be great- Let me follow him" and not "Oh Dear god Super (hes not JUST a man) Man is here! Best act accordingly!".

Even if it means wearing his underpants on the outside (Plus a Cape that makes him look goofy), he will make you see that hes not a threat. He just wants too help YOU. Not force governments.

And I think I can see how often people miss that. MOS is a great example of Grim superman. He is the Superman that want the government (Not just you) too take like a force.

He will smash your spy satellite because he answers too nobody.

Hes not a joke. He wants silence when he enters a room.

The Dresden Cloak re-design is like this but even worse (Or better. Depends on you).

Thus the doorman's uniform.

Actually I think (Maybe) that was the intent, but the result is almost identical to Captain Marvel. And hes called captain for a reason. The suit design is based off actual captains.

[Deepbluediver]

Also (His her? Don't know) Dresden Codak Style peeks through in the art very much so.

Yes it does, but the art style is tweakable, and was referring more to the revisions of the character's origin stories, personalities, and powers.

By now Marvel and DC have several hundred named supers/Meta-humans/whatever, but we keep coming back to the same core groups because all those heroes tend to read like: flying brick, flying brick, Batman, flying brick with energy blasts, speedster, batman-clone, flying brick, etc etc etc.

For this group there seems to a much better diversity without being overly complicated of completely impregnable to a newcomer.

That was the intent, but the style of clothing + that button cape thing looks INCREDIBLY militaristic. Also the stance.
...
The Dresden Cloak re-design is like this but even worse (Or better. Depends on you).

Actually I think (Maybe) that was the intent, but the result is almost identical to Captain Marvel. And hes called captain for a reason. The suit design is based off actual captains.

I find it amusing that you keep coming back to this, when the description of superman's motivations includes lines like:

...owing no allegiance to a particular government...

and

He has particularly targeted corporate corruption and the military-industrial complex as enemies of human progress...

and at least 2 of the other supers where created by the government specifically to oppose him.

Frankly, I can see making superman less "American" and more "protector of all humanity", but this makes him sound practically Marxist.

[Scowling Dragon]

Oh I like diversity. Diversity is good.

But everybody in that group comes off as miserable, grim, and alien. So just the reverse I guess.

Basic example is everybody scowls. Whats wrong with a open hearty smile?

Diversity is good, but the result is almost a 180 of the stuff resulting in just the same amount of identical stuff just opposite.

[Deepbluediver]

But everybody in that group comes off as miserable, grim, and alien. So just the reverse I guess.

Basic example is everybody scowls. Whats wrong with a open hearty smile?

Difference of opinion then, I guess; I didn't pick up on it being like that. Also, Green Lantern seems pretty happy, as do Batgirl and Robin.

The impression I got was that these are mainly characters who take things seriously but to a reasonable degree. So we don't have the looney-cartoonish feel (quick Robin, I need another can of Bat-shark repellant!) but we also avoid the kind of depictions where 90% of every page is black ink and the Joker kills everyone horribly, then shoots a puppy in the face.

In other words, there seemed to be potential to write stories that would appeal to a broad(er) audience. I picked up one of the relatively new comics (I think? I lose track of the release dates) and by the end of the first issue at least 30 soldiers had died gruesome deaths and 2 of the main characters had wandered off to go have sex.
It felt like it was pandering on a level that was insulting. And I'm not normally snooty or hard to please for entertainment; I enjoyed most of the Fast and Furious movies!

You want to know why comic book sales are down? Because the artwork is something that no one under the age of 14 should be looking at and the plot is something that no one over the age of 15 would find amusing for more than about 30 seconds. Maybe I'm just asking for to much, but that seems like kind of a narrow market to set for yourself there.

/endrant

[Scowling Dragon]

Well thats exactly what I think. Especially Green Lantern. Their freaking Space Cops for crying out loud! You spend more plot about their secrets and DBZ style powerups then you do on them just STOPPING SPACE CRIME.

Also because the writing is repetitious and stale.

Thinking about it, my issue with the Dresden reboot would be much less if the characters where simply all new and original.

Its much harder too reboot something decently then too write something new altogether.

The paradox though is that new material is less likely too sell because of lack of name value.

[SaintRidley]

Frankly, I can see making superman less "American" and more "protector of all humanity", but this makes him sound practically Marxist.

To be fair, that's basically how Superman was while Siegel and Shuster were writing him. He smashed up auto plants for having unsafe working conditions and the whole "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" thing was not yet attached to the character.

[Dienekes]

Also, there's this JL Reboot from the author/artist of Dresden Codak, which you might or might not like, but at the very least has some interesting ideas.

Huh, thanks for this. No idea what Dresden Codak is but I enjoy some of the designs there.

But mostly I am happy that Moss got that robot hand and is using it for good!

To be fair, that's basically how Superman was while Siegel and Shuster were writing him. He smashed up auto plants for having unsafe working conditions and the whole "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" thing was not yet attached to the character.

That is stupid, for so many reasons. He just lost all those workers their jobs.

[Scowling Dragon]

I just got it:

Dresden Codak Superman looks lik M Bison!

[Fjolnir]

When you realize that the race of martians was another attempt to enforce order by the guardians post robotic manhunters, giving them a fairly common psychological weakness was key in attempting to maintain control of them.

[Bird]

Let's see, Selina Kyle has no powers (well, unless she really does have multiple lives as vaguely hinted at in some continuities), and I guess Mr. Freeze technically has no powers, but he is by far definitely on the more unrealistic side of Batman's rogue gallery. J'onn definitely has powers. Flight, can become intangible, telepathy, super-strength, possibly a few others that I'm forgetting. Also, he's extremely vulnerable to fire.

J'onn also has some superspeed & super durability and can transform -- though we haven't seen much evidence of his powers in-comic until now, have we? Anyhow, in the DCU at least, he has one of the most diverse powersets, although he's most often relied on for his TP. (Compared to Marvel, DC is short of telepaths.)

IIRC, I don't think Mr. Freeze has been in JL8. We do have Captain Cold, a Flash villain who uses freeze-based weaponry and isn't powered. His tech is supposed to be well ahead of anything Victor has accomplished.

Also, there's this JL Reboot from the author/artist of Dresden Codak, which you might or might not like, but at the very least has some interesting ideas.

Looove those, expecially Superman (more effectively creates that working class look than the t-shirt and jeans version of the nuDC) and Wonder Woman. I always thought that Diana's origin as a fancy golem made her special and should be a more prominent part of her character.

[TheEmerged]

Looove those, expecially Superman (more effectively creates that working class look than the t-shirt and jeans version of the nuDC) and Wonder Woman. I always thought that Diana's origin as a fancy golem made her special and should be a more prominent part of her character.

Just in case you didn't know...

Spoiler

Show

Diana isn't a golem anymore in the New52. She's just a child of Zeus.

[Coidzor]

Also, there's this JL Reboot from the author/artist of Dresden Codak, which you might or might not like, but at the very least has some interesting ideas.

Interesting. Cyborg is definitely way too Dresden Codak and the Green Lantern is just his main character from Dresden Codak as a Green Lantern. Otherwise good.

[SaintRidley]

That is stupid, for so many reasons. He just lost all those workers their jobs.

Sorry, I misstated that. Because of unsafe working conditions, he smashed up the cars at the auto plants to deny the owners profit until they provided better conditions and pay.

[Scowling Dragon]

He also destroyed a slum because it was the cause of corruption in the area. It was then too be replaced by new housing.

So yeah. Old depression era Superman is a sociopath.

[Coidzor]

Well that's one way to end sub-standard housing, I suppose. I believe this was part of the era where he still casually tossed people around and didn't particularly care if he killed them too, right?

[lord_khaine]

The Dresden Cloak re-design is like this but even worse (Or better. Depends on you).

While i dont like the art design that much, the actual character motivation and baggrund is pretty good, i liked the authors comment about making Superman more like a fireman, and less like a policeman.

Well that's one way to end sub-standard housing, I suppose. I believe this was part of the era where he still casually tossed people around and didn't particularly care if he killed them too, right?

I am pretty sure Superman has newer not cared if he killed someone, that has allmost allways been a central part of the character.

[Scowling Dragon]

Um. Thats kinda the antithesis of his character you know?

Killing people is wrong?

[Metahuman1]

He never went through a phase in the golden age were he didn't care about killing. He's had some else world/alternate universe/timeline story's written about him being willing to kill, even enjoying killing, but that was much much later.

[elros]

Regarding the most recent strip, is that Booster Gold with the Blue Beetle? I like the throwback to the JLA in the 1980's, when those two were the comic relief. The tone of that comic is similar to what Yale is doing JL8. Lots of fun!

[Deathkeeper]

Um. Thats kinda the antithesis of his character you know?

Killing people is wrong?

He thinks killing people is almost always wrong. He would definitely kill a few of his villains if forced to it, but those are the "blow up planets for fun" villains. As far as I know the only being he has actually wanted to kill more than he wanted to uphold his morals is Darkseid, although I don't know if that's restricted to the AU.

[Calemyr]

Superman avoids killing because that's the right thing to do, not because it's an all consuming "one rule" like many versions of Batman have.

Tell me, does Superman ever allow mass numbers of civilians to die because he refuses to kill? Or does he always manage to save the day without ever having to make that choice?