OOTS Kickstarter Bonus PDFs: The Discussion Thread *Unmarked spoilers*

[Anarion]

Hmmm... On the one hand I want to say that, because Durkon has Scottish (-ish) accent, that he should be the one to do the Macbeth plot. On the other hand, blind ambition, grasping for power, and the consequences thereof is the spine of Vaarsuvius' character arc.

Either way, I definitely hope that future Stick Tales give us at least one story each told by/about Durkon and Vaarsuvius.

I think V has to be MacBeth. The use of the IFCC as the three witches is really too perfect to pass up. I'd say the Banquo role is up in the air though. Of course, Roy's Dad has the ghost schtick locked down in this comic. But he's got no real connection to V. Haley is probably V's closest friend, but I can't see V murdering her, even in a crazy MacBeth plot.

I'm having trouble placing Durkon in a starring role for a Shakespeare play. His character just doesn't lend itself well outside the supporting positions. On the other hand, I'd love to see Shojo and the Sapphire Guard in a King Lear parody.

[JCarter426]

I'd say the Banquo role is up in the air though. Of course, Roy's Dad has the ghost schtick locked down in this comic. But he's got no real connection to V.

True, but he has a connection to Durkon, if it's Durkon telling the story.

Although, while I agree the archfiends are a nice fit, I'd also like to see Roy as Macbeth, if only because that makes Celia Lady Macbeth.

[Zea mays]

But Kyrie is so perfect for Lady MacBeth.
In being absolutely the opposite character.

Durkon could have a "son" - the same way Malack did.

I do like the FCC as the three witches, but the Oracle should play Hecate.
Belkar would be the gate keeper. No, on second thought, that's the natural job of the MItD.

Wait, does this mean the ABD gets to play MacDuff?

[Kurald Galain]

Durkon doesn't have a son, though.

He might. We haven't seen Hilgya in a while...

[RMS Oceanic]

But Kyrie is so perfect for Lady MacBeth.
In being absolutely the opposite character.

Durkon could have a "son" - the same way Malack did.

I do like the FCC as the three witches, but the Oracle should play Hecate.
Belkar would be the gate keeper.

Wait, does this mean the ABD gets to play MacDuff?

Even funnier:

Young Adult Black Dragon: Thou liest, thou shag-hair'd villain!
First Murderer: What, you egg!
YABD: Hey, that was 70 years ago-*Stab* He has kill'd me, mother.

[Kish]

Even funnier:

Young Adult Black Dragon: Thou liest, thou shag-hair'd villain!
First Murderer: What, you egg!
YABD: Hey, that was 70 years ago-*Stab* He has kill'd me, mother.

That sounds glorious.
Despair thy charm, and let the fiends, whom thou still hast served, tell thee: Black dragons are hatched from eggs.

[JCarter426]

He might. We haven't seen Hilgya in a while...

That... is a very good point.

[ti'esar]

Even funnier:

Young Adult Black Dragon: Thou liest, thou shag-hair'd villain!
First Murderer: What, you egg!
YABD: Hey, that was 70 years ago-*Stab* He has kill'd me, mother.

Best Shakespeare pun I've heard since... well, Haleo and Julelan.

[Yagerr]

Did anyone else notice the Ice king at the party? The gaunt is an adventure time fan!

[oball]

I'd like to see Tarquinus Andronicus.

[Jay R]

If Durkon is Macbeth, he would actually fear the coming of Birnham Wood.

But Macbeth is so unrelievedly dark and depressing that I would cast our lighthearted Elan in the role.

Lady Macbeth would be Haley, of course, scrubbing and scrubbing the gold trying to remove the stains.

And I can just imagine the appearance of the ghost of Banjuo.

[Ted The Bug]

And I can just imagine the appearance of the ghost of Banjuo.

slowclap.gif

[Sermil]

Awesome!

One reference I didn't get, though:

That girl, just like her old man.

An ephemeral mystically-bankrupt sasquatch?

[Shale]

That's just V's normal disdain for non-elves and non-spellcasters. They're short-lived ("ephemeral"), have no talent for rearranging the fabric of reality ("mystically bankrupt") and comparatively stocky and hairy (like a sasquatch).

[Grey Watcher]

That's just V's normal disdain for non-elves and non-spellcasters. They're short-lived ("ephemeral"), have no talent for rearranging the fabric of reality ("mystically bankrupt") and comparatively stocky and hairy (like a sasquatch).

Well, I think "ephemeral" and "sasquatch" refer more to Haley and Ian being human and not elves (which are much longer-lived and have lighter, less hairy bodies).

[Shale]

I thought that's what I said?

[SavageWombat]

I thought that's what I said?

Yes, but you're not a Retired Moderator.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Some people criticize the modern windmills for their impact in the landscape, the amount of trees chopped down to install them, and because apparently they kill birds in droves.

Cell phone towers are a couple orders of magnitude worse.

[Grey Watcher]

I thought that's what I said?

It is, but I apparently can't read.

[Sir_Leorik]

Hmmm... On the one hand I want to say that, because Durkon has Scottish (-ish) accent, that he should be the one to do the Macbeth plot. On the other hand, blind ambition, grasping for power, and the consequences thereof is the spine of Vaarsuvius' character arc.

Either way, I definitely hope that future Stick Tales give us at least one story each told by/about Durkon and Vaarsuvius.

No, no, no! Rich can't tell a "Macbeth" "Stick Tale" until after Durkula (or Durkon) returns to the Dwarven homelands, and we meet several more Dwarves to play the various Thanes and lesser lordlings. We also need at least two more hags, otherwise Samantha and some other Sorcerer or Warlock will need to round out the three witches.

Of course we already have a perfect Lady MacBeth: Hilgya!

As for "Haleo and Julelan", it was phenomenal! Much more of the original dialogue from the play than in "Greenhilt: Prince of Denmark", cameos galore (Ice King! Skeletor! Fruit Pie the Sorcerer!) and it even feels a little like a play, since the characters don't actually have x's in their eyes. (I know this was meant to keep Haleo's survival a secret, but it would play in nicely with the framework of "Elan telling a story based on a play".)

I liked Vaarcutio's reference to Mab/Titania, who has indeed been statted out for D&D, as well as Vaarcutio's "Guy Fawkes" mask (appropriated by Alan Moore for "V for Vendetta"). Other great costume choices: Nybalt as Bizarro, Tarquin as John Travolta's character in "Saturday Night Fever", Yokyok as "the Dread Pirate Roberts" from "The Princess Bride" (though he was originally spoofing Inigo Montoya, Westley did turn the role over to Inigo, so Yokyok is actually "Inigo Montoya as "The Dread Pirate Roberts""). Plus, Elan as a "pineapple". Comedy gold!

Excellent work Rich!

[Grey Watcher]

I think V has to be MacBeth. The use of the IFCC as the three witches is really too perfect to pass up. I'd say the Banquo role is up in the air though. Of course, Roy's Dad has the ghost schtick locked down in this comic. But he's got no real connection to V. Haley is probably V's closest friend, but I can't see V murdering her, even in a crazy MacBeth plot.

...

Unless Haley is Lady Macbeth and Inkyrius is Banquo. But that's just a dark.

[Sir_Leorik]

Unless Haley is Lady Macbeth and Inkyrius is Banquo. But that's just a dark.

You guys are looking at this all wrong. Rather than looking at the play and shoe-horning in characters to fit, you need to look at it the way Rich clearly did for "Greenhilt: Prince of Denmark" and Haleo and Julelan": what is the character arc of the OotS member, and how does it relate to the play?

Vaarsuvius would work best as Prospero in "The Tempest"; that is where her character arc is seemingly leading her. ("Faust" would work better, but we're discussing Shakespeare.)

Depending on what twists Durkula's story takes in Book Six, especially if he goes on a rampage in the Dwarven Homelands, Durkon would, sadly, make a very appropriate Macbeth: a noble thane brought low by greed and paranoia.

The idea of using the IFCC directors to represent the three witches is a nice idea, even if they never interact with Durkula/Durkon in the main comic.

[Grey Watcher]

You guys are looking at this all wrong. Rather than looking at the play and shoe-horning in characters to fit, you need to look at it the way Rich clearly did for "Greenhilt: Prince of Denmark" and Haleo and Julelan": what is the character arc of the OotS member, and how does it relate to the play?

Vaarsuvius would work best as Prospero in "The Tempest"; that is where her character arc is seemingly leading her. ("Faust" would work better, but we're discussing Shakespeare.)

Depending on what twists Durkula's story takes in Book Six, especially if he goes on a rampage in the Dwarven Homelands, Durkon would, sadly, make a very appropriate Macbeth: a noble thane brought low by greed and paranoia.

The idea of using the IFCC directors to represent the three witches is a nice idea, even if they never interact with Durkula/Durkon in the main comic.

I'm not familiar enough with The Tempest to say how good a fit that is, but I still think V fits remarkably well into Macbeth. Both characters are driven by ambition to do horrible things and ultimately face severe and unforseen consequences. I think Durkon ultimately isn't a good fit for Macbeth because his ruin was brought on him by someone else (Malack). Even if he goes on a roaring rampage of revenge as a result, that still makes him a better, I dunno Shylock (although, again, I'm stepping out of my element)? A very, very weird variant on Othello?

Really, the problem isn't that V doesn't fit Macbeth, it's that the supporting cast doesn't line up as neatly as, say Ian Starshine and Tarquin making near-perfect analogues to Lords Montague and Capulet or the Empress stepping into the role of the Prince.

[Sir_Leorik]

I'm not familiar enough with The Tempest to say how good a fit that is, but I still think V fits remarkably well into Macbeth. Both characters are driven by ambition to do horrible things and ultimately face severe and unforseen consequences. I think Durkon ultimately isn't a good fit for Macbeth because his ruin was brought on him by someone else (Malack). Even if he goes on a roaring rampage of revenge as a result, that still makes him a better, I dunno Shylock (although, again, I'm stepping out of my element)? A very, very weird variant on Othello?

Prospero, like V, is someone who left home in search of power. That connection alone makes for some interesting parallels. (Of course, Prospero had been exiled, unlike V.)

You could argue that without the interference of the three witches, Macbeth and Lady Macbeth would never have murdered Duncan or Banquo, or siezed the throne. The three witches placed a self-fulfilling prophecy in Macbeth's head, and once it started coming true ("Thane of Glomis, then Cawdor"), his greed began to grow. You're right that Durkon would not be the most promising candidate, but now that he's Durkula, and given that there is a whole book full of twists and surprises ahead, by the time Book Six comes to a close the parallels may be very clear.

Shylock is not the protagonist of "The Merchant of Venice", he's the antagonist. Antonio is the protagonist; I'll say no more to avoid violating the forum's rules.

Really, the problem isn't that V doesn't fit Macbeth, it's that the supporting cast doesn't line up as neatly as, say Ian Starshine and Tarquin making near-perfect analogues to Lords Montague and Capulet or the Empress stepping into the role of the Prince.

Or the way Eugene and Sarah fit as Old King Hamlet, and the Queen, with other characters from books two through four rounding out the rest of cast. And Optimus Prime; the Cybertronian influence in Elizabethan and Jacobean theatre is not taught properly these days. Did you know that Shakespeare took the historical details of Henry V, and merged them with Rodimus's relationship to Kup to come up with the dynamic between Prince Hal and Falstaff in Henry IV, parts I & II? Scholars have heated debates over who "Pistol" is based on; most believe him to be analogous to Grimlock, but others think that Pistol's sociopathic tendencies reflect Sunstreaker.

[Porthos]

I would like to point out that none of us saw Roy being written out of Haleo and Julelan coming. Nor Belkar having what amounted to a cameo. At least as far as I remember.

So I wouldn't be too quick in assigning roles for various plays.

[Sir_Leorik]

I would like to point out that none of us saw Roy being written out of Haleo and Julelan coming. Nor Belkar having what amounted to a cameo. At least as far as I remember.

So I wouldn't be too quick in assigning roles for various plays.

Hey, Roy and Belkar were in prison at the time, practicing for the most dangerous show this side of "Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark!" They had no time for frivolities like the theatre!

[Grey Watcher]

Prospero, like V, is someone who left home in search of power. That connection alone makes for some interesting parallels. (Of course, Prospero had been exiled, unlike V.)

You could argue that without the interference of the three witches, Macbeth and Lady Macbeth would never have murdered Duncan or Banquo, or siezed the throne. The three witches placed a self-fulfilling prophecy in Macbeth's head, and once it started coming true ("Thane of Glomis, then Cawdor"), his greed began to grow. You're right that Durkon would not be the most promising candidate, but now that he's Durkula, and given that there is a whole book full of twists and surprises ahead, by the time Book Six comes to a close the parallels may be very clear.

I guess if you go with the "pawn of fate" interpretation of the character, Durkon does make more sense. I just think that makes for a more boring interpretation of the original.

Shylock is not the protagonist of "The Merchant of Venice", he's the antagonist. Antonio is the protagonist; I'll say no more to avoid violating the forum's rules.

I know I've been told that before and I always forget. Doesn't help that the only thing that I ever hear quoted from MoV is Shylock's "If you wrong me, do I not revenge?" speech.

Or the way Eugene and Sarah fit as Old King Hamlet, and the Queen, with other characters from books two through four rounding out the rest of cast. And Optimus Prime; the Cybertronian influence in Elizabethan and Jacobean theatre is not taught properly these days. Did you know that Shakespeare took the historical details of Henry V, and merged them with Rodimus's relationship to Kup to come up with the dynamic between Prince Hal and Falstaff in Henry IV, parts I & II? Scholars have heated debates over who "Pistol" is based on; most believe him to be analogous to Grimlock, but others think that Pistol's sociopathic tendencies reflect Sunstreaker.

I... wait. I mean... Wha...?

[Sir_Leorik]

I know I've been told that before and I always forget. Doesn't help that the only thing that I ever hear quoted from MoV is Shylock's "If you wrong me, do I not revenge?" speech.

Shylock is intended to be the villain by Shakespeare, but he makes Shylock a sympathetic villain. Personally I don't see what Antonio does to earn protagonist status, when he's saved by Portia disguising herself as a young man, and acting as Antonio's lawyer. Antonio is the title character, a "Merchant" who lives in "Venice"; Shylock is a Jewish moneylender. Antonio is not solvent at the beginning of the play, so he when his buddy needs cash quickly to court Portia, Antonio goes to Shylock. Antonio has mistreated Shylock in the past, and at first is only willing to lend the money at a very high interest rate. This offends Antonio (for reasons I can't go into on this forum), Shylock defends his means of earning a livlihood, then offers a compromise: he'll loan Antonio the money interest-free, as if Antonio were Jewish, but if Antonio defaults, Shylock gets to claim a pound of Antonio's flesh. The "if you wrong me" speech actually begins "To bait fish withal!", as Shylock attempts to explain why he is demanding the pound of flesh from the now destitute Antonio.

I... wait. I mean... Wha...?

I told you, they're not teaching it properly anymore. Rodimus Prime, nee Hot Rod, is the basis for the character of Prince Hal in "Henry IV, part 1", "Henry IV, part 2", but not "Henry V". Rodimus was neither as eloquent as King Henry is (see the St. Crispin's day speech, as opposed to Rodimus yelling "Till all are one!" repeatedly, along with "Yeah! Let's get 'em!"). Just as Rodimus was reckless, irresponsible and took risks that endangered the lives of his Autobot cohorts, and innocent humans, Prince Hal was seen as a drunken wastrel, who accompanied Falstaff and other undesirables, while a civil war loomed over England.

Likewise, Shakespeare based the fictional character Sir John Falstaff, from "Henry IV, part 1" and "Henry IV, part 2" on Kup, Rodimus' mentor, a crotchety old soldier who drank unrefined engex, told stories about the wars he'd fought in (most of which were clearly embellished with repetition) and was famed for fighting zombies. Unlike King Henry, who repudiates Falstaff after becoming king, Rodimus remained fond of Kup, and entrusted him with greater responsibilities, which the old soldier complained about in public (but privately he preferred to being decommissioned).

Scholars believe that Poins, Bardolph and Peto, friends of Falstaff who accompany Hal, are based on Springer, Blurr and Arcee (who had her gender flipped to make the play acceptable to the master of revels). Falstaff's new companion, the hot-headed Pistol, Falstaff's young page and the character of "Rumour" who introduces the play, in "Henry IV, part 2" seem to be based on Grimlock, Wheelie and Blaster, but some scholars dispute that. They argue that Pistol could be based on Sunstreaker, Ironhide or Drift, while the page seems to be a composite of Bumper, Swerve and Tailgate.

EDIT: Just to be clear: I'm refering to the literary character of King Henry V, aka Prince Hal. I know that there was a real Henry V, who predated the Autobot/Decepticon skirmish in the Elizabethan era, but that is when Shakespeare was writing the play. King Henry V had nothing to do with alien robots. Shakespeare was the one who did.

[SavageWombat]

Not an English or Shakespeare scholar, but I presume Antonio is the protagonist because he's the one that drives the narrative - it's his needs and his struggle that causes there to be a story.

The fact that he's an unlikeable lout who's saved by his girlfriend makes him a questionable protagonist by modern standards. This is another play where Willy S. is ripping off older works, yes? How does the protagonist differ in those?

[Sir_Leorik]

Not an English or Shakespeare scholar, but I presume Antonio is the protagonist because he's the one that drives the narrative - it's his needs and his struggle that causes there to be a story.

The fact that he's an unlikeable lout who's saved by his girlfriend makes him a questionable protagonist by modern standards. This is another play where Willy S. is ripping off older works, yes? How does the protagonist differ in those?

Portia isn't even Antonio's girlfriend; she's Bassanio's girlfriend/fiance. Antonio is probably gay, and Bassanio may or may not have been Antonio's boyfriend, depending on how deep into the subtext you want to read. Even if you don't go that far into the subtext, Bassanio decides to court Portia, but needs money. Antonio isn't solvent, so he goes to borrow money from Shylock.

Meanwhile, Lorenzo, a friend of Antonio and Bassanio, falls in love with Jessica, Shylock's daughter, and Lorenzo and Jessica elope together, stealing from Jessica's father in the process. This unhinges Shylock, adding to the misery that Antonio and his friends heap on him. So when Shylock hears that Antonio's ships are lost at sea, Shylock demands the pound of flesh. Portia disguises herself as a boy, and defends Antonio in court.

Antonio is the most passive protagonist in Shakespeare's plays. Bassanio, Portia, Lorenzo, Jessica and Shylock all move the plot forward, while Antonio sits there like a golem, not really doing much of anything. His loutish behavior makes him even harder to root for. Shylock is definitely the play's antagonist, but Antonio is little more than "guy in the play's title who does little to nothing".

EDIT: Shakespeare borrowed the basic plot from an Italian fable, where it was "evil Jewish moneylender tries to murder righteous merchant". He grafted on another fable (the three chests that Portia's suitors need to choose from to propose to her), then he made Portia the hero who saves Antonio, and made Shylock much less offensive than the original character he was based on. Basically "Merchant" has a lot in common with other "problem comedies" where the female character resolves her own problems, or saves her suitor or another man from death, usually while cross-dressing.