OOTS #873 - The Discussion Thread

[sims796]

Oh, it's not that; I just think his dying would be a shame. Malack's continuing to be around would have interesting effects on Durkon. Dying would largely reduce the chances of that.

Oh yeah, well, that makes sense too, didn't even think of that!

[Dr. Gamera]

I stumbled across some possibly scary foreshadowing in OOTS #834 (A Seasoned Woodsman):

"I'm sick of fighting the Linear Guild when we're at some huge tactical disadvantage. For once, I want us to be the ones with the edge. So we're going to sit here and wait for our spellcasters if it takes all night and all day."

[The Giant]

Also, it looks like Malack's neck wound is missing in panel 9. Though I think small mistakes are forgivable with the ridiculously fast updates recently

Not a mistake. Malack has Fast Healing.

[Art Mage]

My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

Yep. Sounds about right.

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!?!?!

[Grendus]

Well, immunity to criticals, poisons, some enchantments, and 10/silver is a convenient defensive array, even if nothing easily stacks up on offense. (The fun begins when you can grapple enemies and your wizard friends casts Cloudkill on top of the fray.)

If you are skilled at hiding your "condition", getting in close has more advantages than disadvantages. No tactic is really without risk. Trading spells from a distance is a not a great choice either -- Durkon probably has substantially more HP.

Not much of an advantage when you're starting from a cleric base though. Everything you get from vampirism can be replicated with spells from the basic cleric list, meanwhile you've traded 8 caster levels for a few at will SLA's, some touch attacks, and a few bog standard immunities. Vampires make decent monsters (because 2 CR isn't too harsh a penalty), and pretty good BBEG's due to their suite of minion abilities, but it's a terrible PC template.

Durkon probably has more cleric levels than Malack, even with his lower ECL, and good aligned clerics are better suited to take down undead than evil clerics are at taking down the living. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the battle ends anticlimactically with Malack running away. Regardless of whether or not Malack made his saving throw, he will still take 75 points of damage (Heal acts like Harm against undead, and Harm is only will save for half), if Malack has 15 hit dice with d12's that's about 2/3 of his average hit points in one spell. Tack that onto Thor's Lightning and a few hammer blows from Durkon and he's probably on his last hit points.

[allenw]

If the first panel of the next strip is 'CLW', I... will probably be disappointed, given the cliffhanger. There have been rather a lot of anticlimaxes recently.

Unless the Heal actually managed to drop Malack to 0 HP (which by RAW it probably couldn't), then Malack will have an action before Durkon does (and even if Malack was at or below 0, as a vampire he could still flee, so that would be the first panel). That action will probably be "Harm", on himself (unless some third party such as Belkar or V gets a chance to act first).
While it would be hilarious if Durkon had thought to also include *Malack* in the Mass Death Ward (and thus render self-"Harm" ineffective), we saw the spell visibly target Belkar, but not Malack.
They seem to be standing next to each other. Theoretically, Durkon could disrupt Malack's casting with an attack of opportunity, but that didn't come up with Malack's Poison spell, or Durkon's Heal, so the AoO rules may be overidden by Rule of Drama.
Durkon is probably out of Heals, but he *could* then convert his Planar Ally or Resurrection spell into a Cure Critical Wounds to damage Malack. Not a great option, since that would blow a 6th or 7th level spell to do a maximum of 4d8+15 damage.

Also, as a CoDZilla Cleric (one who stacks buff spells and enhancements on themselves and their party once at Durkon's level where they have a Mass version of everything) Durkon would have had buffs anyways. It was worth leading in with Dispel Magic to begin with >.< So why he burned a Quickened Spell is beyond me.

It was a gamble. If Durkon *hadn't* remembered to include himself, then he could follow up the same round with Harm and possibly been very close to winning (or at least to making Durkon burn his Heal on himself). I agree that it wasn't a smart gamble, but Malack is under a lot of stress.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

he's probably on his last hit points.

From my limited knowledge of D&D, I think that more correctly, he is probably on his last hit point, since Harm cannot reduce you beyond 1 HP.

GW

[Sir_Leorik]

Well, immunity to criticals, poisons, some enchantments, and 10/silver and magic is a convenient defensive array, even if nothing easily stacks up on offense. (The fun begins when you can grapple enemies and your wizard friends casts Cloudkill on top of the fray.)

If you are skilled at hiding your "condition", getting in close has more advantages than disadvantages. No tactic is really without risk. Trading spells from a distance is a not a great choice either -- Durkon probably has substantially more HP.

You need silver and magic to overcome a Vampire's DR. The thing is that Clerics do not really benefit from becoming a 3.5 Vampire the way that Fighters, Rogues, Wizards or Rangers do. It also helps if the character is an NPC and the DM is ignoring the Level Adjustment in favor of the boost to CR when designing the Vampire. Unfortunately, Malack is stuck in the OotSverse, where everyone, including NPCs need to earn XP and everyone is stuck with their LAs and ECLs. As a result Malack is probably only a level higher than Durkon at most, not the high level Cleric I'd assumed him to be. In addition, Malack is not relying on some of his best Vampire abilities, such as assuming Gaseous Form, summoning bats, rats or wolves, and thanks to the Mass Death Ward Malack can't inflict Negative Levels on Durkon.

If I were running Malack as a Vampire NPC I'd have him immediately assume Gaseous Form before being reduced to negative HP (unless the Heal spell took him to negatives) and start using guerrilla tactics against Durkon. If Malack flees, Durkon will need to cast remove paralysis on Belkar and then heal the both of them (possibly needing to cast Restoration on Belkar as well.) That gives Malack time to summon rats, send them to attack and then cast spells at Durkon. I don't see Giant having Malack doing this. He's been portrayed as too honorable; he wants to win this in a face to face confrontation. As seen from strip 859, Durkon has no problem fighting dirty when he has too.

That said, there are still prophecies hanging over Belkar and Durkon like Swords of Damocles! Still this is gearing up for the most exciting duel in the strip since V and O-Chul faced Xykon!

[urandom]

Malack is most likely at 1 hp now. Even if he made his will save (which he more likely did) he'd lose 75 hp. Thor's lightning is ~35 damage on top of that. He seems to have less cleric levels than Durkon so he's 2 lizardfolk HD + ~11-14 cleric HD. So at 13 cleric levels ~ 90 hp + 15 temp from draining Belkar - belkar falling damage. That would put his ECL at the stratospheric 24. Unless he finds Zykons to fight regularly he's pretty much out of luck with getting more experience.

As an aside I love how Durkon implies that the reason for dwarf resistance to poison is terrible dwarf cooking.

[Lheticus]

(snip) Unless he finds Zykons to fight regularly (snip)

Oh no you di'int!

[Sir_Leorik]

I'm not rooting for him; it seems that such an outcome would be narratively dull at best.

Even if Durkon works hard to defeat a sloppy villain like Malack? (Seriously, who tries to poison a Dwarf?)

[Shale]

I am now going to rant:
My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

I think it's time to retire the hairstyles quote in my sig.

[Peelee]

Not a mistake. Malack has Fast Healing.

Aha. I probably should have realized.

[Brom]

Woo, Durkon, kickass!

I like how the last panel mirrors Malack's casting of Harm on Nale in #811, and as Malack is undead the Heal has the same effect on him. It would be a bit much to have the next comic start with Malack saying "Unnnh... I'm still... undead" and Durkon countering with "I'm na finished. Quickened Cure Moderate Wounds" though. :P

The one thing that stops me from anticipating that parallel is that we've seen no sign that Durkon actually HAS Quickened Spell. I imagine his feats are going to Combat Casting and other things that help shore him up as a warrior cleric in the thick of it using Healing spells with a Range of Touch that provoke AoO. Would be a terrible serendipity though.

From the GiantHere's the thing: No matter what I draw in any battle scene, within ten minutes of posting it someone chimes in about how the characters are stupid for not executing this, that, or the other tactic. Never mind that said tactic would likely end the fight in one panel when it is my job to provide you with an entertaining battle scene. Never mind that said tactic may result in the person winning whom the plot does not need to win. Never mind that the fight may not be over yet. No, all that matters is that these characters are not living up to someone's imagined D&D tactical mastery.

I get a bit wordy here and the Giant deserves a response, so forgive me.

Spoiler

Show

I'll lead in with an apology; I'm sure that this is a sore spot for you due to the frequency it occurs with, and had no intention of diminishing the comic as a whole. This is the first time (I believe) that I've posted anything like this; the imperfection of some of the characters is (usually) something that furthers the immersion, story, and characterization, however, so I want to emphasize that my own surprise and commentary on the current action in the narrative comes from it seeming out of character from Malak, in this particular battle.

As a Cleric, he knows what Clerics are capable of. As someone who has served alongside Tarquin and shown signs of contemplation, foresight, and intelligence, he's someone capable of putting together a good plan. As a Vampire who has figured out how to sustainably hide his condition, he is aware of his own weaknesses. So seeing Durkon seemingly shunt him at every turn is a bit stunning.

I suppose I did sound inappropriately jilted; I really like seeing stories that aren't fueled by brash action and bellicosity, so Malak wins major points as a character for me, and at the same time, there seemed to me a lot of buildup to suggest he was going to be quite the dangerous foe.

The difference feels worth pointing out to me; I admire good tactcs, but have understood that using spells that are saving throw as opposed to hit point based doesn't *look* very good in the visual medium. It's why Fireball is a favorite spell. At the same time, the amount of damage that Durkon can mete out on Malak seems so overwhelmingly tilted in his favor that I feel a bit stymied by what I see.

Anyways, I just want to leave off with this; please take this as a commentary on the current narrative (and I mean this panel, exclusively) and only that. This line of criticism on my part surely puts me in with the commentators you're mentioning (and I've seen the posts too, Giant) at first glance, and does a terrible job showing my fondness for the comic on the whole. I have recommended it to anyone I've ever seriously been friends with (even people who don't like D&D!) and have purchased all of the hardcovers, and read the things that shed more light on your process and thought as a storyteller (like your homebrew for the 'new world,' using D&D modern, or your Podcasts, Kickstarter commentary, etc) with quite a bit of admiration. I suppose it would be more encouraging and fair to include those kinds of comments; it's a human tendency to be silent in appreciation but vocal in complaint, yet that doesn't make me feel any better about having shown it.

If you did read all this, thank you. If you didn't, I understand; you've got quite an ambitious and admirable set of goals insofar as the art and stories you produce. I wrote it anyways because the quality of work and frustration you conveyed deserved a response, even if I frankly suck at keeping it succinct.

*goes and quietly occupies a corner now*

[Tundar]

I am not going to make any predictions and instead sit back and enjoy this stream of great reads.

I'm with you on this one.
Where's my popcorn?!

[Koo Rehtorb]

The artwork on the dispel was a bit unclear, at least without the characters to explain it.

Also, I'm still calling a Malack victory.

[mawexzon]

The outcome more interesting narratively probably would be if Malack defeats Durkon and turn him into a Vampire, since that would cause big character development in Durkon, both moral and the whole "stopping being so necro-phobic(is that the word?) thing.

[Alex Star]

Personally I enjoy being shown that at their base the PC's are not pushovers. Like most good guys they spend a lot of time in "retreat" mode. Fighting on the defensive requires that though.

It's nice when we get to see that when it comes down to it each of them is a fairly competent badass.

And to the incomparable Mr. Rich Burlew. I'm here because I love not only this webcomic but the world, characters, and story you've created. Thank you so much for staying devoted to this project despite all of the issues you've faced over the years.

[Raineh Daze]

Even if Durkon works hard to defeat a sloppy villain like Malack? (Seriously, who tries to poison a Dwarf?)

Yes. Because that makes this whole situation a grand lead up to... what? Anticlimaxes and a fight. Working hard changes nothing, in the end; it makes this whole thing feel like it's going in circles.

(Answer: someone banking on a bad roll)

[Peelee]

*snip*

If it makes you feel any better, I got shut down too.

[Barsoom]

They seem to be standing next to each other. Theoretically, Durkon could disrupt Malack's casting with an attack of opportunity, but that didn't come up with Malack's Poison spell, or Durkon's Heal, so the AoO rules may be overidden by Rule of Drama.

Or the rules of Casting Defensively. I guess The Giant didn't feel the need to explain every little rule minutiae.

[Tragak]

We'll explain it to you when you're older.

P.M. if you still don't get it

Edit: Swordsaged! D'oh!

And here I thought that was just a joke about Durkon blinding V with Turn Undead

[allenw]

Or the rules of Casting Defensively. I guess The Giant didn't feel the need to explain every little rule minutiae.

Sure, Casting Defensively would cover it. I wasn't complaining, just noting that AoOs would have slowed down the flow of the action.

[The Giant]

(snip)

It's all OK, no hard feelings. I sort of just wanted to get that off my chest anyway. It's gotten to the point where it hurts my enthusiasm for drawing battle scenes, knowing that some people will use them to prove why Character X is an idiot for not casting Spell Y.

[Sir_Leorik]

Here's the thing: No matter what I draw in any battle scene, within ten minutes of posting it someone chimes in about how the characters are stupid for not executing this, that, or the other tactic. Never mind that said tactic would likely end the fight in one panel when it is my job to provide you with an entertaining battle scene. Never mind that said tactic may result in the person winning whom the plot does not need to win. Never mind that the fight may not be over yet. No, all that matters is that these characters are not living up to someone's imagined D&D tactical mastery.

Well, I don't give a damn anymore. The characters fight the way they fight to make an interesting page. They may make subpar decisions, I don't care. I don't spend enough time with the D&D rules anymore to eke out all of these Ultimate Killer Strategies anyway, so we're really running up against the limits of my knowledge and ability. The characters can't be better strategists than I am, and I care more about other aspects. Such strategies are usually boring to read and visually bland to look at anyway. There aren't going to be a lot of invisible save-or-die effects thrown around, because there are only so many ways I can draw characters succeeding at Fortitude saves (and then I still have to verbally explain what just happened). You should stop expecting them, because I'm not going to use them.

My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

Here, here! Having DM'ed a large number of D&D 3.5 games with players who were much more proficient at pulling off perfect tactics using that rules system than I am (especially in the now defunct Living Greyhawk tournament system from the now defunct RPGA), I can definitely agree with the Giant. Fights that are over in less than 1 round are boring. Fights that are over during the surprise round are frustrating. Durkon is employing good strategies against Malack, in an exciting fight scene. Malack is making a number of assumptions that make narrative sense: Malack has not been adventuring in years. He's been mostly engaged in subterfuge as part of Tarquin's scheme. Vampires are very good at subterfuge. They don't really make good adventuring Clerics.

Furthermore Durkon has rarely gotten an oppurtunity to shine. He had the forbidden romance with Hilgya, the time he became the Bandit King, his backstory in OtOoPCs, his battle in Cliffport against Leeky and his bonding with Malack. Durkon deserves some spotlight time. The Giant deserves to tell his story as he wants to. (That won't stop me from guessing what Malack might do next, it just means I won't take it as a personal affront that the author chooses something else.)

[Beelzebub1111]

150 damage is not an easy soak. He'll be left at one. luckilly vampires are tough to kill permanently. At zero he'll just turn to mist and get away.

[Xelbiuj]

I hope my poison comment didn't help to set Rich off, I actually really like this comic. Been
Discussing their behavior, tactical as well as their interrelationships is interesting to me.

I'm sooo freaking glad Durkon is winning (atm). People need to stop fanboying on newer guys the second they show any prowess. lol

[Mauve Shirt]

I'm just here to comment on how Durkon's a badass.

[Brom]

If it makes you feel any better, I got shut down too.

Does make me feel marginally better for a reason I can't quite place, so thanks >.> /sheepish

Baah?

[ReaderAt2046]

Also, it looks like Malack's neck wound is missing in panel 9. Though I think small mistakes are forgivable with the ridiculously fast updates recently

Malack fast-heals 5 points a round, so that may have something to do with it.