OOTS #873 - The Discussion Thread

[Barsoom]

The only thing about this turn of events that upsets me is that it seriously cuts down on the probability of Belkar going vampire, which is about the only way I can see for him to get the WIS boost needed to cast 1st level spells.

Mainly because that's a vital prereq for something I've wanted to see ever since he threw an angry housecat at Tsukiko's face.

See if you can finish the progression.

1) Mr. Scruffy
2) Magic Fang
3) PROFIT!

I think I have the solution to your riddle.

[Commander672]

The Ultimate Duel Between Clerics has begun!

Spoiler

Show

And not a single save was thrown that day!

I do love the contrast between natural strengths and stats against bookworming and spell buffs.

[Sir_Leorik]

Hating mindless undead on principle makes perfect sense.

When you start to deal with those that retain all their mental faculties? Then there's a bit of an issue. Doesn't one setting have good-aligned elf liches, of all things?

The Forgotten Realms has two types of good Liches: Baelnorn are elves who choose to become liches to serve the Elven community, while Archliches are good liches. Both are incredibly rare. (In 4E, Archliches are available as an Epic Destiny for PCs in the Arcane Power supplement. I'm not sure if Baelnorn were described or not.)

The difference between Archliches and Baelnorn on the one hand, and Vampires, Ghouls, Ghasts, Lacedons, Cannibal Zombies, Shadows, Wights, Wraiths, Cerebral Vampires, Paenenngallen and any other Undead that consumes the flesh, blood, brains, souls or life energy of living beings, in the process creating spawn of their kind, on the other, is that Archliches and Baelnorn a) are always volunteers; no one can be forces to become a Baelnorn against their will; b) they don't eat people; c) they contribute to their community by guarding ancient tombs and/or knowledge (I'd add Crypt Things as well); d) they don't eat people; e) they are incredibly rare; f) they don't eat people; g) in 4E, Archliches who reach 30th level and complete their Destiny Quest abandon their Undead bodies and enter the afterlife; Baelnorns eventually join the Seldarine as petitioners and abandon their Undead bodies; and finally, h) they don't eat people!

[Raineh Daze]

In regards to the Giants' rant: Bravo Giant, not only are all of these people working against the interests of the story, they are exactly the sort of pain in the %$^ I hate playing D&D with. We have a standing rule at our table, "The DM may change any rule that is brought up at the table." If your elf ranger is immune to the sleep effect, you may not be, or the sleep effect may become an acid effect, who knows? these people kinda take over the forums here too. Go back and look at any comic update post. pages 1-2 are grats and wows, somewhere around page three people starting bring up rules points and by page 6-8 its practically a flame war. Some where after that someone posts the link to your statements about the rules are your fuzzy little plaything and you can alter them whenever you darn well please. Thread dies off shortly thereafter.

Thanks for all the rapid updates. I absolutely love seeing that little one box on my RSS feed!

It's a bit jerkish, as a DM, to decide that a racial bonus that has been present since character creation should be met with overturning rules, thereby nullifying part of the reason to pick that race in the first place.

[hamishspence]

(In 4E, Archliches are available as an Epic Destiny for PCs in the Arcane Power supplement. I'm not sure if Baelnorn were described or not.)

The difference between Archliches and Baelnorn on the one hand, and Vampires, Ghouls, Ghasts, Lacedons, Cannibal Zombies, Shadows, Wights, Wraiths, Cerebral Vampires, Paenenngallen and any other Undead that consumes the flesh, blood, brains, souls or life energy of living beings, in the process creating spawn of their kind, on the other, is that Archliches and Baelnorn a) are always volunteers; no one can be forces to become a Baelnorn against their will; b) they don't eat people; c) they contribute to their community by guarding ancient tombs and/or knowledge (I'd add Crypt Things as well); d) they don't eat people; e) they are incredibly rare; f) they don't eat people; g) in 4E, Archliches who reach 30th level and complete their Destiny Quest abandon their Undead bodies and enter the afterlife; Baelnorns eventually join the Seldarine as petitioners and abandon their Undead bodies; and finally, h) they don't eat people!

4E (Open Grave) does manage to have Unaligned Vampires that eat people- Vampire Muses.

They find artists, inspire them to heights of creativity, and drink from them, a bit at a time.

The artists tend to die young as a result.

[Geezlewark]

I don't think the fight's over yet. There is going to be some kind of dramatic turn-a-round, and I predict that it's going to involve Malack's staff (in comic #871). He has a number of charges on that thing (what spells?), and perhaps this could turn the tide.

[mawexzon]

It's a bit jerkish, as a DM, to decide that a racial bonus that has been present since character creation should be met with overturning rules, thereby nullifying part of the reason to pick that race in the first place.

Yeah, houserules like that should be established from the start, and not changed until a new adventure starts.

[ThePhantasm]

4E (Open Grave) does manage to have Unaligned Vampires that eat people- Vampire Muses.

They find artists, inspire them to heights of creativity, and drink from them, a bit at a time.

The artists tend to die young as a result.

So the vampires are like plagiarists?

[Nymrod]

The Forgotten Realms has two types of good Liches: Baelnorn are elves who choose to become liches to serve the Elven community, while Archliches are good liches. Both are incredibly rare. (In 4E, Archliches are available as an Epic Destiny for PCs in the Arcane Power supplement. I'm not sure if Baelnorn were described or not.)

The difference between Archliches and Baelnorn on the one hand, and Vampires, Ghouls, Ghasts, Lacedons, Cannibal Zombies, Shadows, Wights, Wraiths, Cerebral Vampires, Paenenngallen and any other Undead that consumes the flesh, blood, brains, souls or life energy of living beings, in the process creating spawn of their kind, on the other, is that Archliches and Baelnorn a) are always volunteers; no one can be forces to become a Baelnorn against their will; b) they don't eat people; c) they contribute to their community by guarding ancient tombs and/or knowledge (I'd add Crypt Things as well); d) they don't eat people; e) they are incredibly rare; f) they don't eat people; g) in 4E, Archliches who reach 30th level and complete their Destiny Quest abandon their Undead bodies and enter the afterlife; Baelnorns eventually join the Seldarine as petitioners and abandon their Undead bodies; and finally, h) they don't eat people!

Crypt Things were changed into those positive undead things from BoED anyway, and in all fairness so should baelnorn considering they are created through elven high magic rituals.

As for the fact that their diet is enforced on them and have no way of avoiding it, I don't consider that reasons for a moral gray ground. If I needed a liver and there was no transplant around but I knew a guy who had a match, killing him and taking his liver would never be considered anything but evil, even if I had no other way to survive. That is exactly what the majority of undead do on a daily basis. Intelligent once are doubly damned. They could seek at least seek destruction.

[Luka]

It's funny because Heal in videogames is usually either the most basic or the 2nd healing spell

[Jiggs]

This may not contribute to the discussion but, I wanna say,
I LOVE IT !!!

[sam79]

Great strip! I know this fight probably isn't over yet, but GO DURKON! I knew you could do it! Awesome.

[hamishspence]

So the vampires are like plagiarists?

More like a supernatural version of Shakespeare's "dark lady".

[Sir_Leorik]

In regards to the Giants' rant: Bravo Giant, not only are all of these people working against the interests of the story, they are exactly the sort of pain in the %$^ I hate playing D&D with. We have a standing rule at our table, "The DM may change any rule that is brought up at the table." If your elf ranger is immune to the sleep effect, you may not be, or the sleep effect may become an acid effect, who knows?

Hmm. It sounds like your GM might find more enjoyment running Paranoia. In Paranoia the players do not have security clearance to know the rules of the game, and the GM is encouraged to change things just to keep them guessing! Paranoia is a fun game! Friend Computer says so! Your DM would find it much easier than playing Non-Fun Games. Only Commie-Mutant-Traitors like to run Non-Fun Games! Is your GM a Commie? I sure hope not!

[MeanMrsMustard]

1. All the battle scenes so far (yes, even the ULTIMATE DUEL BETWEEN CLERICS) have kept me entertained, even if I'm more into the character-based plotting. I never think of OotS in terms of D&D anyway, so I've never thought along the lines of why doesn't Character X use Spell Y? or whatever.
2. I think by now I should have learned to not try and predict what'll happen next. So I'll just sit back while the run of strips is going.

[Threadnaught]

I am now going to rant:


*snip*

It's a very well written story and it's great to see the characters' personalities shine through no matter what actions they take.
I'm actually kinda sad that Durkon won't come to any compromize with Malack and that they have to fight, but bravo sir, they're both fighting like gentlemen as they were expected to.

I'm also amazed at the speed of these updates, afaik that's two sine I checked last week and another since this morning. I'm glad your recovery has been going so well.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm waiting to see if Belkar's alignment chages. From Chaotic EVIL, to Chaotic Evil.

[oppyu]

He may not get the most character development, but Durkon has shown time and time again that he is awesome.

[Sir_Leorik]

4E (Open Grave) does manage to have Unaligned Vampires that eat people- Vampire Muses.

They find artists, inspire them to heights of creativity, and drink from them, a bit at a time.

The artists tend to die young as a result.

I assume the artists get full disclosure ahead of time that their "muse" is going to drink their blood? And they make sure to keep the artist alive? Because otherwise it doesn't sound too different from some of the arrangements Lady Kazandra has with members of the Kargatane...

[Adeptus]

Awesome strip. Nail bitingly exciting, and with excellent jokes.

Also one / day strips this week! Mind - blown!

[Raineh Daze]

As for the fact that their diet is enforced on them and have no way of avoiding it, I don't consider that reasons for a moral gray ground. If I needed a liver and there was no transplant around but I knew a guy who had a match, killing him and taking his liver would never be considered anything but evil, even if I had no other way to survive. That is exactly what the majority of undead do on a daily basis. Intelligent once are doubly damned. They could seek at least seek destruction.

It takes a vast amount of willpower to actively seek out your own demise. I really do wish 'not doing your best to die' would stop being declared evil so readily.

[ZerglingOne]

Oh man, 75-150 damage to a character with no con modifier. Barring Gaseous Form, Malack is in some serious trouble here. One more of those and Malack's gonna need to fly fly fly away and hope Durkon doesn't follow.

But if he's a vampire lord (which there's evidence against in him requiring a protection from daylight spell), they're notoriously difficult to kill. They make the lich template look terrible by comparison, and we all know how hard they are to kill for good.

[hamishspence]

I assume the artists get full disclosure ahead of time that their "muse" is going to drink their blood? And they make sure to keep the artist alive?

I would think so- with the proviso that after the muse leaves, the artist's lifespan seems to have been significantly shortened.

Still, I could see an artist accepting the bargain with their eyes open- live fast, die young, leave a legend behind.

[The Troubadour]

Awesomer and awesomer!

[Nymrod]

I assume the artists get full disclosure ahead of time that their "muse" is going to drink their blood? And they make sure to keep the artist alive? Because otherwise it doesn't sound too different from some of the arrangements Lady Kazandra has with members of the Kargatane...

I think vampire muses actually exist in folklore as fey. Ain't the leanan sidhe exactly that?

[Sir_Leorik]

As for the fact that their diet is enforced on them and have no way of avoiding it, I don't consider that reasons for a moral gray ground. If I needed a liver and there was no transplant around but I knew a guy who had a match, killing him and taking his liver would never be considered anything but evil, even if I had no other way to survive. That is exactly what the majority of undead do on a daily basis. Intelligent once are doubly damned. They could seek at least seek destruction.

Let me clarify: Vampires sometimes ask permission before they sire Vampire Spawn, but that's the exception. Ghouls, Shadows, etc, just create spawn from unwilling victims, who then repeat the cycle.

Let me repeat for emphasis: Vampires eat people. Every night. That is Evil.

[Gnoman]

The fact that Malak has such a high potential for escape should he be defeated makes this scene ripe with character development potential. Durkon winning here would set up another nemesis dynamic should Malak take things personally or Durkon set out to finish the job, which would greatly increase the complexities of Durkon's character.

[zimmerwald1915]

It takes a vast amount of willpower to actively seek out your own demise. I really do wish 'not doing your best to die' would stop being declared evil so readily.

There are two objections to be made. First, someone like Malack has a vast amount of will power by definition. Second, that in a world with a verifiable afterlife, demise in the mortal realm is not demise as such, but simply a transition to another state of being. Dying might hurt, but it is not the end.

[Trixie]

May I take the time to remind people that Heal is exactly as dangerous as Harm and that Clerics get a good Will save (as well as high Wisdom), so it's a bit early to be declaring anybody dead?

Not only this, Xykon was smart enough to think of getting anti-positive energy ring, so why a cleric wouldn't think of the same? It should be obvious and priority #1 for Malack, especially if he only ever wanted to heal his allies...

Sensing switch in first frame of next comic :<

[Sir_Leorik]

I would think so- with the proviso that after the muse leaves, the artist's lifespan seems to have been significantly shortened.

Still, I could see an artist accepting the bargain with their eyes open- live fast, die young, leave a legend behind.

Blech. The artist would be better off becoming a Fey Pact Warlock in that case; they might be able to become a Feylord and live forever in the Eladrin Kingdoms. (Epic Destiny from Arcane Power.)

[hamishspence]

I think vampire muses actually exist in folklore as fey. Ain't the leanan sidhe exactly that?

The Open Grave one is fey in some sense- looks like an eladrin.

Probably where they got the idea from.