The current main-plot is boring

[Excise]

At the end of Star Wars, one does not care that the Death Star is about to blow up Yavin 4; one cares that the Death Star is about to kill the protagonists, some of whom happen to be on Yavin 4.

I'd actually disagree with this. I care about more than 'just' whether Han, Luke, Leia and the others live or die. The threat of knowing the Empire will keep ruling the galaxy and do evil things to people is important. The stakes would be too low if it was just about the protagonists living or dying.

[The Giant]

I'd actually disagree with this. I care about more than 'just' whether Han, Luke, Leia and the others live or die. The threat of knowing the Empire will keep ruling the galaxy and do evil things to people is important. The stakes would be too low if it was just about the protagonists living or dying.

The Empire does keep ruling the galaxy—for two more movies. So clearly, that's not really what was at stake there. What was at stake was whether the protagonists (and their allies) would be alive to keep fighting the Empire.

If Yavin 4 had been blown up, but every single protagonist had escaped, it would have had no impact on the rest of the movies at all. The planet was narratively disposable, just like Alderaan before it (whose only purpose was to show how eeeeevil the Empire was). Conversely, if every protagonist died but Yavin 4 was saved, that would have still been an awful ending, because it's the protagonists we care about.

But I don't really want to argue Star Wars; it's an example, not my main point. It may not be the best possible example, but it's the one that popped into my head while writing.

[Lvl45DM!]

The current arc thats happening right now isn't about the Linear Guild i feel. Its about Tarquin and Malack and the Empire of Blood. Rich just put as much effort into these guys as he did Azure City.
I'll grant I'm not feeling the overwhelming threat of the Snarl in each strip. I don't think I ever have felt the overwhelming threat in any fantasy work except LOTR. I care way more about Tywin being an evil monster than the mostly theoretical ice zombies up North in ASOIAF. I care more about Sam and Dean killing the Demon of the episode than stopping the apocalypse of the season. I care more about Parson beating Spacerock (sort of) than his destiny as the one who stops Erfworld's wars.
That said when the ice zombies Horsemen of the Apocalypse and crazy Carnymancers obsessed with fate attack I care about the epic plot then. But right now I'm not in the frame of mind to worry about what's going on with the Snarl COS DURKON IS GETTING EATEN BY A VAMPIRE SNAKELIZARD GENOCIDAL LUNATIC. The Snarl thing happens when it happens. This is an episodic series. Enjoy the episodes

[Carry2]

...The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story.

Yeah, but my point (at least) was that it's not clear how the recent plotline has actually showcased the characters' conflicts (and that the Snarl plotline is actually, in certain ways, orthogonal to that purpose. To take your Star Wars example, the overriding goal of destroying the Empire is interesting mainly as a counterweight to, for example, Luke's desire to redeem Vader in ROTJ, or rescue Han and Leia in TESB. That's how you know he cares about them, because he's willing to compromise that laudable goal for the sake of those personal relationships.* That's how you gain information about the character- i.e, find them relatable.)

It just kinda feels like the Order have been following the path of least resistance for a while now. Aside from Belkar's twinge of conscience in the arena, V's pang of conscience in the pyramid, and a total absence of conscience regarding YukYuk's treatment, I don't really know much about the Order's personalities that wasn't reasonably clear 200 strips ago.

Malack and Tarquin, on the other hand, have gotten a great deal of development (in the sense of personality-revelation, not necessarily personality-change,) and over that timeframe have arguably been the most significant movers and shakers behind depicted events. That's why I see them as the agonists of this sequence- not because they're sympathetic as such, but because we know who they are, and why that matters.


*I'm reminded of a line from The Immunity Syndrome:

"I've noticed that about your people, Doctor. You find it easier to understand the death of one, than the death of a million. You speak about the objective hardness of the Vulcan heart, yet how little room there seems to be in yours."

.

[gerryq]

I agree that the Linear Guild are a bit weak, but they introduced Tarquin and Malack, two characters with huge potential. I think they may well be involved in the final face-off, possibly on opposite sides. Tarquin, ultimately a nihilist, may join Xycon. Malack, who cares only for lawful, ordered destruction, may fight him.

Edit: yes I know, Angelus versus Spike

[Chantelune]

It just kinda feels like the Order have been following the path of least resistance for a while now. Aside from Belkar's twinge of conscience in the arena, V's pang of conscience in the pyramid, and a total absence of conscience regarding YukYuk's treatment, I don't really know much about the Order's personalities that wasn't reasonably clear 200 strips ago.

Character's growth is a tricky thing to manage. Too much and not only it might become a trivial thing, but it might even changes the character way too much in too little time. Evolving is good for character, but sometimes, it's best if they stay true to themselves long enough so the sudden character growth or change get more impact.

Takes Durkon : he stayed mostly the exact same for nearly 900 strips, having very little changes during all that time. I think this is partly why people are so moved by him becoming what he always loathed. We knew "good old Durkon" to the point that such a drastic change seems all the more baffling.

[Fitzclowningham]

Just in reply to #1, I don't know how you can fail to find Malack fascinating. All the LG stuff has been comedy relief and window-dressing to the Malack-Durkon plot.

[Jay R]

The planet was narratively disposable, just like Alderaan before it (whose only purpose was to show how eeeeevil the Empire was).

"Narratively disposable". What a perfect phrase. It communicates your point precisely.

[Temotei]

If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles—whether those struggles are external or internal, relevant to the MacGuffin plot or not—and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing. And more importantly, I won't care. The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story. The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World. Ultimately, it seems like you want the story to be about things it is not going to be about, so it's unlikely you are ever going to enjoy it.

To be fair, Winter said he does enjoy the comic (and, in fact, it's one of his favorites, according to a following post). He cares about the protagonists and (most of) the antagonists. His problem lies in the background--"the armature upon which [you] hang the characters' conflicts"--itself.

I might not agree with Winter, but his point of view is that that armature is boring while the characters are interesting and if the background were just a bit more vivid, the entire story would be just a bit brighter.

I'm not trying to speak for you or Winter. That's just what I got out of it.

Good post, though, overall. I especially like the distinction between the Snarl as the main threat versus Xykon as the main threat.

[The Troubadour]

I partly agree with the OP. Personally, what's keeping me most interested in the story right now isn't the plot, but the characters; I loved the confrontation between Durkon and Malack, and I'm very anxious to see how Elan will deal with Tarquin. But the plot itself? I'm not that interested anymore. Maybe when I read the book with the collected strips, it will flow better.

[WoLong]

I did not have time to read the last replies, but given the current comic shows it so nicely:

THIS is how you set up a decent threat and make readers believe "Yes, that is something that needs to get stopped!"

I am so sick of the 'stop the horrible threat' kind of stories. Why does the story always have to revolve around 'high-stakes' races and doom if the protagonists fail? That describes almost all high fantasy; give me something new.

Of course I don't mind if that's a major element, but you seem to be complaining that you're not feeling sufficiently threatened all the time.

[Temotei]

I am so sick of the 'stop the horrible threat' kind of stories. Why does the story always have to revolve around 'high-stakes' races and doom if the protagonists fail? That describes almost all high fantasy; give me something new.

Of course I don't mind if that's a major element, but you seem to be complaining that you're not feeling sufficiently threatened all the time.

Just because you're tired of it doesn't mean others don't want that sort of story.

[The Giant]

Just because you're tired of it doesn't mean others don't want that sort of story.

It just doesn't matter what sort of story I want, right?

[Lombard]

Let's not forget it's a campaign.

The Party got beat by Xykon because they weren't nearly epic enough to defeat him. DM creates some distractions to keep Xykon busy for awhile and the party goes off on a sub-campaign to become truly epic.

Did you think that the OoTS would become capable of defeating one of the world's most powerful villains by doing some dungeon crawls and a few outdoor modules? No, they've got to become legendary in their own right first. Each of them must become more than they were. That process, so easily quantified on a character sheet, is being expressed quite well in story form I think. Your mileage may vary.


Edit: posting under The Giant ftw

[MeanMrsMustard]

It just doesn't matter what sort of story I want, right?

That is the greatest comeback I have seen all day.

My two cp: I totally trust the Giant with this. It's not like he's writing by the seat of his pants — he's had this planned out for about as long as my youngest brother has been alive. He's consistently shown that he's good at writing and telling a story, so if there's a "slow patch" or whatever, it really doesn't bother me. The humor, characters, and storyline have been enhancing my life for over a year now, and I intend to stick with this comic until it's finished.

[Malak'ai]

It just doesn't matter what sort of story I want, right?

Rich is right. This is his story. He's telling it how he wants to and I'm just thankful that he takes the time to sit down and draw it for us to enjoy.

[SavageWombat]

It just doesn't matter what sort of story I want, right?

Ignore the haters. Get some sleep.

[Winter]

I am so sick of the 'stop the horrible threat' kind of stories.

Well, if you look at it, there are basically only two kinds of stories (at all).

• Ones where the stakes for the "surroundings" are high and where it actually is about fighting that threat (and character Development is very enjoyable to read, but it ultimately is a mean to that).
• Ones where it actually is not about the stakes, but it actually is about the main character's development (and the Big Threat is actually only a mean to drive the character).

No matter what it is on the surface, if you look below it, it turns out to be one or the other. The stories where it really is a mix are relatively rare, if it is one, the other is very often a side effect, filling or a McGuffin (please note the "scale" does not move the second category into the first).

Stories of the first type are for example the Lord of The Rings, Star Wars, Order of the Stick and basically every big Blockbuster Hollywood churns out for this Blockbuster-Season.

Stories of the second type are for example Planescape: Torment, Memento, 12 Monkeys, Fight Club, 8 Bit Theatre, maybe also The Hobbit.
In some way, A Song of Ice and Fire is this type as well (so far, after 5 books, we do not even know what the actual threat is actually supposed to be), it just is not "about the Main Character" but "About Basically Every Character".

(Note that which category a work is says nothing about its quality!)

I think complaining the first is not the second is off the point, I think. OotS is a classic epic-let's-fight-the-threat-story, therefore, you need the epic threat it's all about.

[Temotei]

It just doesn't matter what sort of story I want, right?

I was just pointing out that not everyone has the same desire. If anything, that helps rather than harms you.

Ignore the haters. Get some sleep.

I don't think anybody here is a hater, or we wouldn't spend so much time posting about stick figures.

OotS is a classic epic-let's-fight-the-threat-story, therefore, you need the epic threat it's all about.

Categorizing the story like that seems...off, to me. The story isn't finished, first of all, so it's hard to say what type it falls under, if we stick to the idea that there are only those two types of story. Secondly, I think it could be argued that Order of the Stick is in the first, second, or "mixed" category. Regardless, that doesn't change the story itself, and the story itself is again, not finished, and also not ours to categorize.

[The Giant]

Well, if you look at it, there are basically only two kinds of stories (at all).

• Ones where the stakes for the "surroundings" are high and where it actually is about fighting that threat (and character Development is very enjoyable to read, but it ultimately is a mean to that).
• Ones where it actually is not about the stakes, but it actually is about the main character's development (and the Big Threat is actually only a mean to drive the character).

No matter what it is on the surface, if you look below it, it turns out to be one or the other. The stories where it really is a mix are relatively rare, if it is one, the other is very often a side effect, filling or a McGuffin (please note the "scale" does not move the second category into the first).

Stories of the first type are for example the Lord of The Rings, Star Wars, Order of the Stick and basically every big Blockbuster Hollywood churns out for this Blockbuster-Season.

Stories of the second type are for example Planescape: Torment, Memento, 12 Monkeys, Fight Club, 8 Bit Theatre, maybe also The Hobbit.
In some way, A Song of Ice and Fire is this type as well (so far, after 5 books, we do not even know what the actual threat is actually supposed to be), it just is not "about the Main Character" but "About Basically Every Character".

(Note that which category a work is says nothing about its quality!)

I think complaining the first is not the second is off the point, I think. OotS is a classic epic-let's-fight-the-threat-story, therefore, you need the epic threat it's all about.

How does it not occur to you that it is far more likely that you are miscategorizing OOTS than that I am making an elaborate series of mistakes in telling my own story?

This is me, the author, telling you that you are wrong. It's the second kind. It has been for a long time, certainly since the "Haley's Aphasia" plotline. You're looking at my Type #2 story and complaining that I haven't made it Type #1 enough. Mind you, I don't actually agree that those are the only two types of story, but within the context that you have set up? You're jamming a square peg into a round hole and then blaming the peg maker for it not being round enough.

[EmperorSarda]

I am so sick of the 'stop the horrible threat' kind of stories. Why does the story always have to revolve around 'high-stakes' races and doom if the protagonists fail? That describes almost all high fantasy; give me something new.

Read Twilight then. No stakes, no horrible threat, no doom if the protagonist fails.

[Temotei]

Read Twilight then. No stakes, no horrible threat, no doom if the protagonist fails.

To be fair,

Spoiler

Show

in the first book, Twilight, if Edward failed to protect Bella from the other vampires, she would have probably died. If she didn't die, she would have become a vampire, something he never wanted. Later on, the Volturi become the main threat in that they threaten Bella and everything she holds dear with deformed justice in the form of death/destruction. These are the main dangers, though there are others throughout the series.

The Twilight Saga sucked balls, but it had some stakes.

Still, this is about The Order of the Stick, not The Twilight Saga.

[deworde]

I cannot express enough my confusion at this thread not being locked before the Giant even posted.

1) The title is deliberately inflammatory, as a negative absolute statement always is. ("Is Anyone Else Bored?" would have been better, "What About The Snarl" would have been even better still)
2) These arguments were tired when they were being made during DStP, and at least there the whole point was either party's lack of progress towards or away from the endgame. Here there is direct, measurable progress, by at least three parties capable of affecting the outcome, as well as a bucketload of character development for Belkar, V and Durkon. I mean, if this is annoying you, the Cliffport saga must have driven you *mental*.
3) The inbaked assumptions in the OP (vis, that this is a story about saving the world, rather than a story about a party of adventurers) have been discredited by the author and questioned by about half the posters.
4) It seems to be annoying the Giant, which leads us to the Zivkovic principle:

"Free Speech ... does not mean you have the right to say your stuff on my blog. It means you have the right to start your own blog."

5) We're now arguing about the narrative nature of classic genre fiction, which is at least more interesting than "I'm Bored", "But look at all the cool stuff..." "Still Bored!", but surely we've got an existing thread for this by now, and one with a better title.

By virtue of title alone, this thread? It be a troll thread. If voting to lock was an option, I would.

[Winter]

This is me, the author, telling you that you are wrong. It's the second kind. It has been for a long time, certainly since the "Haley's Aphasia" plotline. You're looking at my Type #2 story and complaining that I haven't made it Type #1 enough. Mind you, I don't actually agree that those are the only two types of story, but within the context that you have set up? You're jamming a square peg into a round hole and then blaming the peg maker for it not being round enough.

I am sorry if there was a misunderstanding: I wasn't replying to you, I have been replying to the person complaining about your story. In this case, I pointed out the person is reading a classic "There's Evil going on Story" and therefore should not complain it's a classic There's Evil going on Story (with more Character Development than you'd see in a movie as this comic has more time).
If we're agreeing or disagree if OotS is that does not really matter here as the conception of the person I replied to is like. I actually defended your story here.

I am not complaining OotS isn't enough Type #2.
Yet, I am a bit tired of dissecting what I was actually complaining about as OP and I really do not want to state again "Yes, I have that complaint, but in general I enjoy the story very much" so I'm just dropping this as it's not mattering that much. As it has also started to actually incite you, I'm seeing it doing much more harm than good anyway, so I'm not going to proceed.
I'm just enjoying OotS to, I don't know, 90% of what it's "Personal Enjoyment Potential" is and I'm fine with that.

Sorry for raising those 10% by voicing them, in the future I'm just going to talk about the other 90%.

[Bulldog Psion]

How does it not occur to you that it is far more likely that you are miscategorizing OOTS than that I am making an elaborate series of mistakes in telling my own story?

This is me, the author, telling you that you are wrong. It's the second kind. It has been for a long time, certainly since the "Haley's Aphasia" plotline. You're looking at my Type #2 story and complaining that I haven't made it Type #1 enough. Mind you, I don't actually agree that those are the only two types of story, but within the context that you have set up? You're jamming a square peg into a round hole and then blaming the peg maker for it not being round enough.

The person you're answering doesn't appear to be blaming you, complaining about your story, or saying that you have made any mistakes. They seem to be on your side.

They were answering someone else who was possibly answering someone else. There is nothing negative in what they said, and nothing negative in about 2/3 of the posts in this thread, either, from what I can see.

[Kish]

Let's not forget it's a campaign.

The Party got beat by Xykon because they weren't nearly epic enough to defeat him. DM creates some distractions to keep Xykon busy for awhile and the party goes off on a sub-campaign to become truly epic.

...Pretty sure that's zero for four.
(Not a campaign. There is no DM. Xykon is not distracted, he is advancing his world domination scheme. The Order has been actively opposing that scheme ever since they found out he's still among the unliving, not going on a sub-campaign "to become truly epic.")

[allenw]

The person you're answering doesn't appear to be blaming you, complaining about your story, or saying that you have made any mistakes. They seem to be on your side.

However, they seem to (still) be saying that OotS is a "Type 1" story, even after Rich explicitly says it's not. I suspect some kind of miscommunication is happening.

[Winter]

However, they seem to (still) be saying that OotS is a "Type 1" story, even after Rich explicitly says it's not. I suspect some kind of miscommunication is happening.

Could you please drop that? There seems to be a miscommunication what the Type #1 and #2 mean that I introduced (Rich seems to have read something other than I wrote, so we were talking about different things) but I totally don't see the point to dissect that further.
There's only so much ad-hoc made-up categories can communicate and even if we'd be on the same page, the information gain would probably not be worth the characters used to explain it.

My point why I added the categories in the first place was this:
I find it unfitting to read a work about/around/before an epic conflict and then complain it has an epic conflict.

Anything beyond that basic statement can slide.
Especially if it'd be about getting into a lengthy and ultimately pointless discussion with the author about where what made-up category might get interpreted in what way, where this or that miscommunication might have happened and what the interpretational-ly scope and meanings could be etc etc etc.

[SavageWombat]

You know, Rich's comment brings to mind an interesting point.

When we attempt to predict the end of the story, we've been predicting how some sort of climactic fight would go. Or something similar.

If Rich is primarily telling a character story, then we need to focus on the character-development crisis point - probably with Roy - and what would that be?

[Kish]

I find it unfitting to read a work about/around/before an epic conflict and then complain it has an epic conflict.

Uh...what?