OOTS #876 - The Discussion Thread

[Eric Tolle]

So with Durkon and possibly Belkar vampires, we may actually being set up for a failure ending to the series. Without Belkar and Durkon, the Order won't be able to take on the Linear Guild, much less Xycon. So the Order fails, Xycon messes with the rift and destroys the world, and somehow Elan and Haley end up on the world in the rift.

Bottom line, I don't see the Order winning if Durkon is vamped.

[Poppatomus]

Seeing nothing in the MM about Abominations' being insane.

I think he may have been thinking abberations:

"An aberration has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three." - d20 SRD

[rewinn]

... he cannot crush Durkon like a soda can.

Yes, sodas go around crushing dwarves. Many a noble Dwarf has lost its life to the soda.....

You jest? But behold this Bane Of Dwarves:

Spoiler

Show

[Adeptus]

Durkon returning to his homeland posthumously, and also bringing doom to it when he returns is starting to be rather likely... unholy crap

But what about the Belkster? Does he get to be Durkon's even shorter sidekick in evil? Also I can see unlife warping Durkon into a dark mirror of himself... but would Belkar really change that much? So many questions...

[Mutant Sheep]

Ok, those bulges in Malack's cloak are weird looking. Extra arms? (also, his full length cape reaching the floor, but his tail being coiled weirdly, looks silly. Malack is freaaaaky. Cant wait for more!

[Vectner]

Well poop, Durkon needs help

[Raineh Daze]

... oh dear. If Malack is a YTA... no wonder he'd have been part of that adventuring party. Substantially more HD than a simple vampire, his stats all racially in the upper teens at least? Limited casting or no, that's terrifying.

[Hugo]

Nothing is lost for the Dwarf.
The solution to this problem is very easy.

Vampire Weaknesses

For all their power, vampires have a number of weaknesses.
Repelling a Vampire

Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.

If You’re Grappling

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
Activate a Magic Item

You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require spell completion activation. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item.

He just needs to hold his Cleric Holy Symbol. That easy.

Also, for all who where saying in the previous comics for him to use Protection from evil. You should read the description on Vampiric domination and Dispel Evil.

[Raineh Daze]

He just needs to hold his Cleric Holy Symbol. That easy.

That isn't activating a magic item, however.

[Hugo]

If you can activate a magic item you can hold a magic symbol.

[Nephrahim]

You can also see that his hands cannot move, as he's struggling to do so in the comic. I can't see how he'd grab his Holy symbol.

[Feddlefew]

Ok, those bulges in Malack's cloak are weird looking. Extra arms? (also, his full length cape reaching the floor, but his tail being coiled weirdly, looks silly. Malack is freaaaaky. Cant wait for more!

Maybe he's wearing a large modified bag of holding, and those weird bumps are crinoline that makes it stay in a robe-like shape?

[Sir_Thaddeus]

Regarding speculations on Malack's true race, is it possible that he belonged to a primitive, unevolved offshoot of the lizardfolk race back when he was alive? Seems a bit unlikely, given (a) no parallel with real-life evolution, (b) 200 years isn't that long, in evolutionary terms, and (c) lizardfolk are already fluffed in D&D as primitive, so Malack's having belonged to an "ignorant barbarian... tribe" doesn't imply anything less evolved than standard lizardfolk. Still, something to consider; I'm not certain of The Giant's likelihood of using homebrew, though.

[r2d2go]

That's pretty pro planning, Giant. Though I suppose I should expect nothing less...

[E^G]

Woah woah woah, so if Durkon is vamped, he automatically becomes Evil, even if he is not really evil (like, still trying to help the Order). So as a cleric that change in capitalized alignment means he loses his casting abilities right? Would Thor really turn his back because of something that happened to Durkon against his will?

Oh.
I hadn't really thought that through.

If Durkon is vamped the Order can still kill Malack, freeing him.
HOWEVER even if Durkon is a free willed vampire the team can't kill and resurect him because he's the only Cleric.

Pragmatics would force them to keep Durkon with them so they had a cleric (who might lose domain specific spells, but should keep cleric spells - though the planar ally plan would get complicated). And they could probably sneak Malack's resist sunlight spell later.

Wow. Durkon would loathe himself, but his duty to his team (and the material world) would force him to exist as a vampire to help defend the gates.

That would be AWESOME!!!!



Free willed self-conflicted vampire Durkon coming up! Let's hope! Defeat Malack, exist as a monster for the betterment of the world. Time for some internal character conflict/development for the dwarf! :) [Edit: Once task is completed he asks comrades to stake him and send him home to be ressurected.]

[WoLong]

So with Durkon and possibly Belkar vampires, we may actually being set up for a failure ending to the series. Without Belkar and Durkon, the Order won't be able to take on the Linear Guild, much less Xycon. So the Order fails, Xycon messes with the rift and destroys the world, and somehow Elan and Haley end up on the world in the rift.

Bottom line, I don't see the Order winning if Durkon is vamped.

It won't necessarily mean that Durkon will no longer be part of the order if he's turned into a vampire. You can't be certain that the OotS will fight the linear guild again, and Elan won't get his happy ending if Xykon wins.

[JackRackham]

If you can activate a magic item you can hold a magic symbol.

Except that activating a magic item doesn't generally involve moving. Reaching for a holy symbol would. He could attempt it, but would need to succeed on a grapple check. Unless Malack had a pretty serious Str penalty before being turned or Durkon is mug stronger than we know, he'd be at a serious disadvantage. Moreover, the text implies that Malack has Inproved Grapple.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Wait, do Vampires get a +6 or a -6 to strength?

I know it's one of them, but I'm not sure which.

If it's -6, combined with a Yuan-Ti's not-too-high strength, than no crushing for Durkon. If it's +6 and there's some obscure "negate the drawbacks of your former race" thing that I don't know about, Malack could very well crush Durkon in his armor.

EDIT: Armor, Dangit! I meant ARMOR!

[Stormlock]

V can't dispel the Dominate, but break enchantment might work I think? He had that last time he fought Z. Not that I expect him to walk in, unless it's so he can immediately get controlled by Malack or the IIFC.

Assuming Durkon does become a vampire, he won't actually be much of a threat. He's got lousy combat stats and skills, and will be a fallen cleric- Thor sure as hell isn't granting him any divine assistance, and I doubt Nergal is going to grant him high level spells just because he used to have them from Thor. Malack likely worshipped Nergal before he got vamped, or converted to Nergal over a period of time. Becoming a vampire isn't like becoming a blackguard for a paladin, especially if it's unwilling. Vamp durkon is just going to be an ex-cleric until he finds a new god to follow.

Belkar, OTOH, would be a monster with an extra 6 str and 4 dex, given he already uses light armour and dual wields with inexplicable efficiency. And with his cha he'd probably have a good gaze attack as well. I guess his new title ought to be Really sexy shoeless god of war.

[E^G]

Maybe he's wearing a large modified bag of holding, and those weird bumps are crinoline that makes it stay in a robe-like shape?

Haha. Certainly not true, but also an AWESOME idea.

A bag of holding with two ends.
A tail extends from one, an upper body the other.

Imbetween?

Infinite. Serpent. Torso.

[Raineh Daze]

Wait, do Vampires get a +6 or a -6 to strength?

I know it's one of them, but I'm not sure which.

If it's -6, combined with a Yuan-Ti's not-too-high strength, than no crushing for Durkon. If it's +6 and there's some obscure "negate the drawbacks of your former race" thing that I don't know about, Malack could very well crush Durkon in his amor.

+6, and a Yuan-ti Abomination (which Malack seems to match the description for) has 9 HD and Strength beyond the human maximum. Most likely, his Strength score before Divine Favour would be in the low 20's. Now? Nearly 30 or above.

[ReaderAt2046]

1) Yes, and Yes, and yes, yes, and Yes. We know, but he knows that we know, but we know that he knows that we know, but he knows that we know that he knows that we know, but we know that he knows that we know that he knows that we know, but he knows we know that he knows that we know that he knows that we know, but do we know that he knows we know that he knows that we know that he knows that we know?


2)Since everyone was predicting it in the last thread, I predict an inversion... Thor's Might... slamming Malack through the ceiling and out into the sun... then dispelling the sun protection... and allowing the sun to Rule of Dramatic, cure him and Belkar of the Vampire effects since they weren't fully turned.

1. Well, now we know that he knows we know that he knows that we know that he knows that we know, because we know he knows that you know that he knows we know that he knows that we know that he knows that we know. And therefore he knows that we know that he knows we know that he knows that we know that he knows that we know.

2. I'm pretty sure that won't work. Durkon can't use Thor's Might if it would cause him to hit the ceiling, the spell would fizzle.

[My2Cents]

I've always found Durkon to be kind of boring.
A lawful good dwarven vampire would actually be interesting.
Even if a little cerebus syndrome.

[Feddlefew]

Haha. Certainly not true, but also an AWESOME idea.

A bag of holding with two ends.
A tail extends from one, an upper body the other.

Imbetween?

Infinite. Serpent. Torso.

Robe of Holding: Removes penalties from disguise checks caused by having extra limbs and being +/- one size category.

[E^G]

2. I'm pretty sure that won't work. Durkon can't use Thor's Might if it would cause him to hit the ceiling, the spell would fizzle.

Just because there's a ceiling above them doesn't mean it's attached to the roof. Not that durkon can cast anyway.
I'm predicting (hoping) for free willed vampire durkon after allies kill Malack. :)
(And by allies I probably mean V. The fact that rather than save her ally she makes him a free-willed (possibly evil) monster is just awesome. Durkon will reassure her and make her feel that much more conflicted! :) )

[Zmeoaice]

So with Durkon and possibly Belkar vampires, we may actually being set up for a failure ending to the series. Without Belkar and Durkon, the Order won't be able to take on the Linear Guild, much less Xycon. So the Order fails, Xycon messes with the rift and destroys the world, and somehow Elan and Haley end up on the world in the rift.

They still might be able to get help from the paladins, Celia, or Ian.

Regarding speculations on Malack's true race, is it possible that he belonged to a primitive, unevolved offshoot of the lizardfolk race back when he was alive? Seems a bit unlikely, given (a) no parallel with real-life evolution, (b) 200 years isn't that long, in evolutionary terms, and (c) lizardfolk are already fluffed in D&D as primitive, so Malack's having belonged to an "ignorant barbarian... tribe" doesn't imply anything less evolved than standard lizardfolk. Still, something to consider; I'm not certain of The Giant's likelihood of using homebrew, though.

(d) snakes evolved from lizards, not the other way around.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

So I guess Malack pretends to be a lizard-folk because he doesn't want anyone to think he is incredibly dangerous in a grapple (the vampire's energy drain applies to all natural attacks). Very clever, that kind of deception takes a lot of dedication.

I've always found Durkon to be kind of boring.
A lawful good dwarven vampire would actually be interesting.
Even if a little cerebus syndrome.

Durkon will be lawful evil if he gains the vampire template. Knowing the Giant, this will be played both for laughs and well-written. If Redcloak is any indication, it's going to be veeery interesting.

[Subzero008]

Am I the only one who thinks that Belkar would wake up just as Durkon's con is nearly drained; and then Belkar will stab and kill Durkon, preventing his becoming a vampire?

Is that even possible?

[EccentricFellow]

Heh,heh,heh. I doubt Durkon is going to be vamped, I don't know the specifics of how long it takes, etc., but we have so many other possibilities for action yet, including the cavalry coming in at the last minute, that predicting the fate of anyone yet is highly premature. Afterall, Durkon could have dined heavily on garlic last night and Malack will soon be spitting blood. ;)

Nonetheless it is fun to speculate about that particular outcome. It would be a most fascinating continuation if Durkon was changed. Is Durkon the one who finishes off Belkar completely rather than turn him into an undead abomination? Does Durkon return to wreak a terrible vengeance on his homeland? (Seems most unlikely to me) Another fun round of speculation and contemplation.

Good work Giant, your drive is inspiring and the story is riveting. It is appreciated.

[Sir_Thaddeus]

(d) snakes evolved from lizards, not the other way around.

Covered in my (a), no parallel with real-life evolution. At least that's what I intended it to cover, I may have communicated poorly. But yes.