OOTS #876 - The Discussion Thread

[Nephrahim]

I don't think we're really suggesting he is, though, as looking at the ECL alone would be rather ludicrous.

That's the other thing. I don't play D&D that often (Or more then once.) so I'm not expert, but telling me this thing has an ECL of 35 (That's 15 levels into epic ) seems insane, but I don't know how much, if anything really, ECL affects.

[Raineh Daze]

I don't think we're really suggesting he is, though, as looking at the ECL alone would be rather ludicrous.

Eh, I consider it possible. Sure, the ECL is ludicrous, but 20HD isn't going to be too far off Tarquin's, and neither Yuan-ti nor Vampire abilities seem like an additional 15 levels' worth of stuff.

That's the other thing. I don't play D&D that often (Or more then once.) so I'm not expert, but telling me this thing has an ECL of 35 (That's 15 levels into epic ) seems insane, but I don't know how much, if anything really, ECL affects.

XP gained, starting wealth. That's about it.

[SaintRidley]

Eh, I consider it possible. Sure, the ECL is ludicrous, but 20HD isn't going to be too far off Tarquin's, and neither Yuan-ti nor Vampire abilities seem like an additional 15 levels' worth of stuff.

Very true. At that level, vampire and Yuan-Ti abomination abilities are not a huge chunk of the power. Although, in order to gain any experience whatsoever, Malack would have to be fending off level 27 encounters in order to get his 11th cleric level. That might be a problem in terms of everything else, because he'd need a team like he has with Tarquin to do that, and that would probably push the rest of the team into low Epic on HD alone.

Unless he gained his 11th cleric level before becoming a vampire, in which case he'd only need level 20 encounters to gain experience, and would also explain why he has so much difficulty finding challenges since.

[E^G]

{{scrubbed}}

LOL

I bet you really get into these clerical battles, aye? :)

[Raineh Daze]

Very true. At that level, vampire and Yuan-Ti abomination abilities are not a huge chunk of the power. Although, in order to gain any experience whatsoever, Malack would have to be fending off level 27 encounters in order to get his 11th cleric level. That might be a problem in terms of everything else, because he'd need a team like he has with Tarquin to do that, and that would probably push the rest of the team into low Epic on HD alone.

It may just be that his clerical abilities have stagnated since vampirism, though. In which case, he wouldn't have gained anything since dying, except wealth.

Given the group we're talking about, though, I wouldn't put it past them to take out unreasonably strong encounters, given that it took 26 nations to defeat Tarquin's army.

[Horatius]

I must say I have trouble buying the "backdoor passcode" in the Divine spell. Arcane spells, sure, they are inventions of the spell researcher, with no 3rd party involvement, but the source of divine magic is the deity of the caster (Thor, in this case). Why would Thor allow Malack to trump HIS magic with a password? We already know that Thor can/may take a personal role in the spell "memorization". I would not allow this particular stunt in a session that I ran, and I would object if the DM tried it.

[Raineh Daze]

I must say I have trouble buying the "backdoor passcode" in the Divine spell. Arcane spells, sure, they are inventions of the spell researcher, with no 3rd party involvement, but the source of divine magic is the deity of the caster (Thor, in this case). Why would Thor allow Malack to trump HIS magic with a password? We already know that Thor can/may take a personal role in the spell "memorization". I would not allow this particular stunt in a session that I ran, and I would object if the DM tried it.

If the password is part of the spell design... unless Thor is attentive enough to exactingly analyse something one of his clerics has designed and requested, why would he remove it?

[Harry Leipzig]

It's amazing how these comic threads can create discussions about almost every topic that is brought up in the comic in question.

To further elaborate on the lizard/snake debate, lizards and snakes are squamates, or scaled reptiles, one of four groups of reptiles. Together with tuataras, they are a sister group to the archosaurs, which includes dinosaurs, crocodilians, and birds. Fossil evidence for lizards and snakes dates back to the Jurassic Period, but recent mitochondrial phylogeny suggests that squamates first appeared in the late Permian.

While the current theory is that snakes evolved from burrowing lizards due to vestigial hips in some snake species, the lack of snake-ancestor and early snake fossils, and their comparatively fast genetic clocks, makes their connection to other squamates difficult to pin down.

The more you know.

[SaintRidley]

I must say I have trouble buying the "backdoor passcode" in the Divine spell. Arcane spells, sure, they are inventions of the spell researcher, with no 3rd party involvement, but the source of divine magic is the deity of the caster (Thor, in this case). Why would Thor allow Malack to trump HIS magic with a password? We already know that Thor can/may take a personal role in the spell "memorization". I would not allow this particular stunt in a session that I ran, and I would object if the DM tried it.

It'd probably be best not to let clerics research spells, but that's out of the bag. It's not like Thor necessarily knew the spell had a back door, though. Couldn't figure out what it was the first time Durkon tried casting it, after all.

[Zmeoaice]

Covered in my (a), no parallel with real-life evolution. At least that's what I intended it to cover, I may have communicated poorly. But yes.

Ah. I thought you were more going for this.

What is this "evolution" of which you speak?
The Gods (re)created stickworld a few thousand years ago. The normal process for the creation of species involves an argument between pantheons, although it's theoretically possible for a sufficiently powerful caster to create new species. There must be little more frustrating than to be a molecular biologist on that world.

[GCI-Flynn]

I think a sudden appearance by V is Durkon's only shot at getting out of this.

I'm thinking this is a good time for the final part of Belkar's prophecy to come true

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

[ellindsey]

It is however a bit pointless to use the evolution of real-world snakes as a clue to Malack's ancestry, considering that all the creatures in the OOTS world were created as-is by the gods in recent times. It's not clear if there's even been time for evolution to have any effect since then, or even if the basic principle applies to the OOTS universe.

[Shale]

I must say I have trouble buying the "backdoor passcode" in the Divine spell. Arcane spells, sure, they are inventions of the spell researcher, with no 3rd party involvement, but the source of divine magic is the deity of the caster (Thor, in this case). Why would Thor allow Malack to trump HIS magic with a password? We already know that Thor can/may take a personal role in the spell "memorization". I would not allow this particular stunt in a session that I ran, and I would object if the DM tried it.

Ah, but what if Malack's "help" included a touch of power from Nergal?

[DarkEternal]

So, would this fulfill the prophecy then?

Spoiler

Show

If I remember correctly, the Oracle said that Durkon would see his homeland post death or something, and being a vampire kind of sort of applies?

[Tannhaeuser]

Though of Malack the dwarf is defiant,
On his Death Ward he was too reliant.
Will our dwarf friend be lucky
Or end up blood-sucky?
That’s a plot curve I’ll leave to the Giant.

Or, you know, the incredibly powerful vampire cleric could kill the lawyers. Actually, that would be pretty awesome.

Eh, why bother? They’re already Lawful Evil bloodsuckers.

[Horatius]

If the password is part of the spell design... unless Thor is attentive enough to exactingly analyse something one of his clerics has designed and requested, why would he remove it?

Exacting analysis is pretty much a prerequisite, I think; they have to know how it works, to be able to grant it to the Cleric; when they didn't (in the earlier strip), Durkon was unable to cast the spell. They -- Thor + his divine assistants, who are much more studious than he is -- have to know what the spell is supposed to do. I can see how a "backdoor" that allows the Caster to dismiss it ("Dismissable") might escape scrutiny, but a 3rd party? No dice.

And if Nergal is allowed to corrupt a spell going to a high-level Cleric of Thor, I would be looking for Thor to intercede directly.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Ooh! Ooooh! Ooooooooooh!

The Archosaurs ruled the world for millions of years, and then their descendants are (1) Those absolutely terrifing flying reptiles with wings and no teeth, like Pterodactyls and Pteranadon, (2) Dinosaurs (3) birds, which may be considered a subset of Dinosaurs or may be considered their own subset of the Archosaurs, based on where "Archosaur" ends and "Dinosaur" begins; and (4) crocodilians, which are my favorite of all.

Since 1 and 2 are extinct, the closest non-crocodilian relative of crocodilians would be birds; and vice versa.

Birds are more closely related to aligators than Alligators are to snakes, lizards, or any other reptile.

Read the book Supercroc and the Origin of Reptiles for an excellent education on the subject.

[NerdyKris]

So, would this fulfill the prophecy then?

Spoiler

Show

If I remember correctly, the Oracle said that Durkon would see his homeland post death or something, and being a vampire kind of sort of applies?

Possibly, but I doubt Tarquin and Malack are going to abandon their current plan completely to go to a different continent. Right now, this is next door to them. The Dwarven homelands and the gate are on the other side of the planet.

[Shale]

Yeah, but you have to assume this gate is going to get exploded or rendered useless somehow. Otherwise there's no reason for anybody to go to Kraagor's Gate.

[Commander672]

Now for Durkon's secret weapon: Dwarven Blood Alcohol Content!

[ReaderAt2046]

{{scrubbed}}

[Raineh Daze]

Exacting analysis is pretty much a prerequisite, I think; they have to know how it works, to be able to grant it to the Cleric; when they didn't (in the earlier strip), Durkon was unable to cast the spell. They -- Thor + his divine assistants, who are much more studious than he is -- have to know what the spell is supposed to do. I can see how a "backdoor" that allows the Caster to dismiss it ("Dismissable") might escape scrutiny, but a 3rd party? No dice.

And if Nergal is allowed to corrupt a spell going to a high-level Cleric of Thor, I would be looking for Thor to intercede directly.

Hey, it's Durkon's devised spell. Why not give the dwarf what he asks for? It's assumed he's the one that wrote that in, surely?

[Gift Jeraff]

1 of Malack's fangs is on the other side of his mouth in Panel 3, when usually we see 3 fangs on the side facing us when his mouth is closed.

Not sure if it's an art error or not. I actually prefer it this way.

[TRH]

Eh, why bother? They’re already Lawful Evil bloodsuckers.

They're Lawful Stupid, not Lawful Evil.

[rgrekejin]

So... I don't know how much of this was mentioned because I only sort of read the entire thread up until this point.

1. I know several people have pointed out the weird bulges in Malack's cloak look like arms, and they may well be. If they are, it invalidates my second suggestion.

2. I don't know if anyone pointed this out or not, but look at the person in on the far left in the second generation. Two arms, long tail, apparently lizard-y head judging by the coloration.

I'm not suggesting Malack is related to the Draketooths, but he might be the same class of creature? Maybe?

Admittedly, something Yuan-Ti related seems more likely, though.

[Smolder]

Now for Durkon's secret weapon: Dwarven Blood Alcohol Content!

As funny as that would be, it's fairly unlikely that Durkon has had a drop to drink at least since entering the Windy Canyon unless he's been hiding a flask and sipping off panel. Plus, human alcohol wouldn't get him drunk enough.

On the other hand, he does slur his speech...

[Raineh Daze]

So... I don't know how much of this was mentioned because I only sort of read the entire thread up until this point.

1. I know several people have pointed out the weird bulges in Malack's cloak look like arms, and they may well be. If they are, it invalidates my second suggestion.

2. I don't know if anyone pointed this out or not, but look at the person in on the far left in the second generation. Two arms, long tail, apparently lizard-y head judging by the coloration.

I'm not suggesting Malack is related to the Draketooths, but he might be the same class of creature? Maybe?

Admittedly, something Yuan-Ti related seems more likely, though.

That would make him a half-dragon lizardfolk vampire, which is even more circuitous. Nale would be jealous.

[Nephrahim]

Ooh! Ooooh! Ooooooooooh!

The Archosaurs ruled the world for millions of years, and then their descendants are (1) Those absolutely terrifing flying reptiles with wings and no teeth, like Pterodactyls and Pteranadon, (2) Dinosaurs (3) birds, which may be considered a subset of Dinosaurs or may be considered their own subset of the Archosaurs, based on where "Archosaur" ends and "Dinosaur" begins; and (4) crocodilians, which are my favorite of all.

Since 1 and 2 are extinct, the closest non-crocodilian relative of crocodilians would be birds; and vice versa.

Birds are more closely related to aligators than Alligators are to snakes, lizards, or any other reptile.

Read the book Supercroc and the Origin of Reptiles for an excellent education on the subject.

The term "Reptile" has all but no meaning in evolutionary biology these days. Learning about the Archosaurs really shattered my idea that you could organize all the animals into 5 groups.

These days birds are sometimes considered reptiles in some biological circles. While at the same time... you could really make an argument that they're no more related to reptiles then mammals are, since they're all decedents of reptiles in one way or another (Since many reptiles like dimetrodon are more closely related to us then they are to lizards OR birds.)

[Feddlefew]

As funny as that would be, it's fairly unlikely that Durkon has had a drop to drink at least since entering the Windy Canyon unless he's been hiding a flask and sipping off panel. Plus, human alcohol wouldn't get him drunk enough.

On the other hand, he does slur his speech...

Undead are immune to poison, so....

Poor Durkon.

[Menas]

I'm thinking that now would be a perfect time for V to tunnel exit into the same room that Durkon and Malack are in, armed to the teeth with disintegrate and gust of wind spells...