Couldn't Tarquin/Malack work with the OOTS now?

[Fish]

Are you sure Tarquin knows? Really sure? Are you sure Nale told the truth?

[Jokunen]

Tarquin's biggest error is that he thinks he is the Big Bad when he's just a side villain, an also-ran. Thus he winds up sucking up oxygen and time better spent fighting the real threat. But asking Tarquin to have the humility to be something other than the center of attention, to aspire to being the main villain, is to ask Tarquin not to be Tarquin.

Has he even heard of Xykon?

[Math_Mage]

Are you sure Tarquin knows? Really sure? Are you sure Nale told the truth?

We know that Tarquin knows of "Gates", that there is a Team Evil Nale used to work for who's interested in the Gates, and that TE has a means of controlling the Gates. We can be reasonably certain Tarquin does not know how strong Team Evil is--Nale may not know, and if he knows he concealed it. I mentioned that in my previous post.

Beyond that, what would Nale have lied about, such that the additional information Durkon/OotS provides would in any way change the state of play? If we assume Tarquin knows what Nale knows about the Gates, then Durkon has nothing to add. If we assume Nale lied in some way to make the prospect of acquiring a Gate more appealing, and that Durkon therefore has new information to offer...we end up at the same end state.

[Fish]

What do you mean, "besides the strength of Team Evil?" Nale referred to an epic city-destroying lich sorcerer as somebody he used to work with. That's a pretty big omission -- we don't know if Nale is even aware that Xykon was behind the city attack, or that he's on his way Right Now. For all Nale knows, they're still in the Dungeon of Dorukan. Dad won't be happy to hear that Xykon plans to set up camp in his Empire.

You need something more besides?

[Math_Mage]

What do you mean, "besides the strength of Team Evil?" Nale referred to an epic city-destroying lich sorcerer as somebody he used to work with. That's a pretty big omission -- we don't know if Nale is even aware that Xykon was behind the city attack, or that he's on his way Right Now. For all Nale knows, they're still in the Dungeon of Dorukan. Dad won't be happy to hear that Xykon plans to set up camp in his Empire.

You need something more besides?

I already discussed that. If you want to talk about it, start there--don't just pull it out like some big gotcha I ignored. Also, Nale knows it was Team Evil that attacked Azure City.

[Fish]

Very well, let's start there: Nale should know that Xykon is coming because Zz'dtri scryed upon Elan's message. He's not just concealing their strength but their imminent arrival. Tarquin would be keen to know that.

Or, possibly Zz'dtri never mentioned it to Nale.

[Math_Mage]

Very well, let's start there: Nale should know that Xykon is coming because Zz'dtri scryed upon Elan's message. He's not just concealing their strength but their imminent arrival. Tarquin would be keen to know that.

Or, possibly Zz'dtri never mentioned it to Nale.

Since Tarquin's plan involves using Nale to get the information out of TE at some point, how does Elan's extremely vague message that TE is coming at some point in any way change his plan?

[Shred-Bot]

Has he even heard of Xykon?

Well, whatever Nale told him, which could very well be almost nothing. Other than that? Probably not... his role in Azure City was not really public (up in the air with Roy and in the throne room) and it was Redcloak actually leading the army. So actually it's more likely that Tarquin has heard of the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle.

Remember that Azure City didn't know of Xykon either until the Order was brought in, so somehow people seem not to know about an epic sorcerer lich whose 2 favorite words are "meteor" and "swarm".

[rodneyAnonymous]

For Tarquin to join Team Evil would be completely out of character.

That is solid reasoning.

However...

That's like saying 'sure, the Miami Heat have three of the greatest superstars of the modern era, but what they really need is a better reserve point guard.'

No it's not. I didn't say anything about what they need. A proper analogy would be if the Heat could acquire a better reserve point guard, of course they would, regardless of the state of the rest of the team.

[Haleth]

I doubt that'll happen—Tarquin has no reason to go adventuring with the Order when his main goal is to expand his empire and conquer the continent. Malack seemed likely until he turned Durkon into a vampire, so I doubt that'll happen.

[dps]

I doubt that'll happen—Tarquin has no reason to go adventuring with the Order when his main goal is to expand his empire and conquer the continent. Malack seemed likely until he turned Durkon into a vampire, so I doubt that'll happen.

While you're correct about Tarquin's goals, Xykon ruling the world would put a severe crimp in those plans, so he may have a lot of incentive to help the Order defeat Team Evil--but that depends on how much he learns about Xykon and Redcloak. AFAIK, all Nale told him about Team Evil is that they're someone he worked with before who know a ritual to control the gate.

[Bravo]

Why the Order might work with Tarquin and Malack: Durkon will say they should. Currently, they're stuck on a desolate desert continent ruled by various members of an old evil adventuring party, with no cleric. Even if they survived long enough without a cleric to overcome the Linear Guild, they have no way to raise Durkon on this entire continent - I would be disinclined to trust any cleric who lived here. If Durkon gets free will, he'll suggest that the Order not get themselves killed, Haley will see the sense in it and suggest that they make an alliance, but be sure to betray Tarquin before he surely betrays them. Roy will know that there isn't really another option that lets them live more than a few rounds against Team Evil, and will relish the opportunity to give Tarquin and the Guild a taste of their own medicine by hanging them out to dry against Team Evil at a crucial point in battle.

Strangely, I think the strongest objections will come from Elan and maybe even Belkar.

Durkon's already proved that he just wants his friends to survive, and although as a cleric of Thor he'd never consider it, as a vampire he'll probably be a lot more... morally flexible. Haley's savvy enough to go for it, and Roy's vindictive enough to like the "betray them later" part. Elan is genre-savvy enough to know the betrayal will likely backfire, and Belkar's bloodthirsty (and upset) enough to not want to do anything but stab that lizard cleric b*****d.

[pendell]

Strangely, I think the strongest objections will come from Elan and maybe even Belkar.

Ultimately, the decision will be Roy's. Would he permanently ally with a bloodthirsty empire out to set up a continent-wide program of mass extermination? No. Would he concoct a temporary alliance in order to defeat an evil which will destroy the world in months, as opposed to utterly ruin a continent in a generation? Probably.

Regardless, Roy regards Elan's counsel of no more weight than the chirping of birds, and he has little but contempt for Belkar. So I don't see either of those persuading Roy to so much as eat tacos for lunch, much less change his mind when the fate of the world is at stake.

*checks watch* ... mmm ... tacos ...

At any rate, I would expect the voice most strongly raised against a temporary alliance proposal, if it is, to be Vaarsuvius'. Vaarsuvius just took a long, deep dive into the evil end of the pool, and the entire party is still paying for V's miscalculation, for V's willingness to embrace evil means as necessary in order to achieve good ends. I find it likely V will be reluctant to do so again unless all other options really are exhausted.

Durkon's already proved that he just wants his friends to survive,

Durkon the dwarf did, but realistically his conversion -- was just reading about this -- is as significant as the one experienced by Sarah Kerrigan . Until we've actually seen freewilled Durkon on panel, we can't be sure whether he will still WANT living friends, or simply come to view them as his next meal.

Sarah the Queen of Blades is a different person from the Sarah kerrigan who was a Terran Ghost. I think it highly likely that Durkon the Vampire will be different from Durkon the Dwarf. I'm certain that aspects of the original personality will be changed, but exactly what is coming out the other end -- ally with an unfortunate affliction or arch-nemesis -- is yet to be seen.

Belkar's bloodthirsty (and upset) enough to not want to do anything but stab that lizard cleric b*****d.

At constitution 1 , Belkar isn't going to be doing much of anything except sit in the corner. Sure hope he doesn't mean to make a fort save, because at this point anything but a natural 20 would fail. Or at least, I expect so.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[sims796]

I'm surprised that no one answered the thread title with a simple "no".

[JackRose]

It most certainly doesn't. When reading arguments, people can get far too caught up in the details.

I would think, though, that Roy's Lawful alignment would prevent him from making any deal with Malack after what he did to Durkon, stemming from a sense of loyalty. In the same way that Durkon wouldn't compromise with Malack, I doubt that Roy will.

I agree with essence, but beg to differ on one point- I'd say that Roy's Lawful Alignment doesn't prevent him from making a deal, but rather that his unwillingness to make that deal is what makes him Lawfully Aligned.

[Rakoa]

I agree with essence, but beg to differ on one point- I'd say that Roy's Lawful Alignment doesn't prevent him from making a deal, but rather that his unwillingness to make that deal is what makes him Lawfully Aligned.

What I meant was, his unwillingness to make a deal stems from his Lawful alignment in that it would be a betrayal of the loyalty he has to Durkon.

[kickassfrog]

Team Evil does not have a high-level fighter.

MitD?
Not that it's likely to do much.
I wonder if we shall find out what it is at the final battle for Kragor's gate.

[ReaderAt2046]

I'm surprised that no one answered the thread title with a simple "no".

That's impossible. There's a 10-character minimum length for posts.

[Kish]

Noooooo!!!

[pendell]

Noooooo!!!

Thumbs up to Kish for that one, even if I disagree with her point.

Fact: Roy is ALREADY technically working for Tarquin as his employee.

ETA : As of this strip .


Respectfully ,

Brian P.

[Kish]

And will continue to do so as long as Tarquin orders him to do what he was going to do anyway.

Should Tarquin try to give any other orders, which might quite possibly include "don't cut me in half with that greatsword," it will be another story.

[pendell]

Pff. 1v1 , just Roy and Tarquin at full strength, I think Tarquin can defeat Roy in 99 out of 100 battles. He's more experienced and better prepared and has I don't know how many regeneration and healing items.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[gerryq]

I agree with essence, but beg to differ on one point- I'd say that Roy's Lawful Alignment doesn't prevent him from making a deal, but rather that his unwillingness to make that deal is what makes him Lawfully Aligned.

Even with three folks who, even if they are Evil, are certainly Lawful?

If they are willing to make a deal, Law can't be too much of an issue.

[Math_Mage]

Even with three folks who, even if they are Evil, are certainly Lawful?

If they are willing to make a deal, Law can't be too much of an issue.

'Lawful' does not mean 'Will cooperate and/or make deals with others of Lawful alignment.' Roy sharing a characteristic on the ethical alignment axis with Tarquin and Malack by no means entails his being willing to work with them.

[Byzantine2]

With the fate of the world at stake and Team Evil arriving any minute now I find it likely they may just end up teaming up. If Tarquin and Malak aren't foolish the first thing they would do is quiz Durkon about the gates, as he is unlikely to lie and I don't think Tarquin is foolish enough to actually trust Nale. Once they realize the other team has an epic-level lich and a very strong cleric, and is planning the utterly rule the world (as far the OOtS know), they are likely to realize they are going to be using the gate, and Xykon is a greater threat than anything they have ever faced before.

Also, I do not believe Roy will be in much of a position to deny their aid, when they are trapped with the end of the world looming and no chance real hope of beating Team Evil (who I expect to be making a timely appearance right about when Tarquin and Malak find out what is really going on).

[Mike Havran]

If Niu's sending to Hinjo was made in about the same time the Order found the guarded door, it's been only a few hours since the defeat of Resistance. Redcloak went to astral plane, where he needs to wait about a day to replenish his cleric spells then cast it in Xykon's fortress, then wait a day again, and only then go to the desert. So Team Evil will appear a day, but probably two days later.

In the meantime, the Order are without their cleric, without their wizard, with another member barely able to stand. With no hope of getting any other help. With no means of escape. In hostile and unknown environment.

So yes, they may have a little discussion on the Lesser Evil theme and decide to parley.

In the Linear Guild camp, Durkula tells everything he knows about Xykon and Nale's "cooperation" with him. Tarquin mutters something about failing him for the last time and then Malack bites Nale's head. Off. And after that, they may agree to set an ambush for the lich together with the Order.

[Onyavar]

Answer to OP: Yes, he could/would/should, once he learns about the complete setup.

There are two problems, that were discussed in this thread in length:
a) he doesn't know about the complete setup.
b) the OotS is not likely to work with him, that would need a good evil deal of persuasion skills

Of course, I believe

Spoiler

Show

that once Malack dies, Durkon is able to broker a deal between Tarquin, himself and the OotS. He's done so before in the encounter with Miko, showing wisdom and good reasoning.

Now, the thing is, what are Tarquins plans? Nale believes Tarquin has a cunning plan, and is trying to deduce this plan for quite some time now.
But I bet that Tarquin doesn't even have a plan at the moment. He and Malack are just exploring possibilities by having a side adventure in their own campaign - that's what Tarquin believes at the moment. Roy and the Order - just some NPCs.
Tarquin hasn't invested anything of real value into this adventure, he believes that he can gain some XP and maybe a nice opportunity to gain new powers or evil tools. Once he knows the setup, he can flexibly adapt to whatever the situation is and make the best of it, snatching the item and claim it for his campaign. That's his plan.
We readers know it's worthless with TE incoming. Tarquin doesn't.

Tarquin and Shojo are on opposite ends of the alignment scale, but state leaders of the same calibre. Shojo knew about his NPC status all along. I'm waiting desperately for the strip when Tarquin realizes he's a only a major NPC side character. It will either be his demise or much needed character growth.

[Longest Skies]

Has he even heard of Xykon?

I pointed that out before. or his world threatening nature not that many people know of him. Or the gates for that matter.

Asides from the Order and Sapphire guard some nobles, and that last resistance member. I don't think any one really knows about Xyclon.

Tarquin may have heard about a Goblin force crushing the Azurites, but asies from that I don't see him knowing as much of the situation as he would like or thinks he knows.

[CWH10301964]

MALACK KILLED DURKON! OOTS looking over that would be completely out of character. And stupid.

I'm expecting battle betwen LG and Team Evil soon. Haley, Belkar, Roy and Elan have to find V, Girard's gate, destroy it before it falls to Tarquin's or Xykon's hands, and run as fast as they can to Kraagor's gate. LG fighting with Team Evil would be great chance for them to escape unnoticed.

Not to mention, it would be great to see Malack vs Redcloak duel (hopefully, not this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html).

That was HILARIOUS.