Why doesn't Vaarsuvius use a wizard's staff?

[Stormlock]

Casting spells requires only one free hand.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't know about that. dispel magic caps at +10 to dispel check, so it would be unlikely to have an effect against malack.

Are you sure? While Malack's ECL is bound to be quite high, his actual caster level, which depends only on his cleric levels (and possibly magic items) and not his racial hit dice and level adjustment, is not. It's not inconceivable that V could win an opposed caster level check versus Malack's eleven or so cleric levels, though V does have a poor record of making opposed caster level checks.

That said, this might not actually matter. Sunburst is not natural sunlight, and Protection from Daylight might not hold against it. Protection from Daylight being a homebrew spell, we will not know unless and until it's tested on-panel.

And even if it works, if malack succeeds in the saving throw (and i think he should have quite strong bonuses here, I'm no expert but a template giving +8 to cr should give some boost to saves too) he will survive and heal himself the next round.

The Vampire template gives a +2 bonus to Reflex saves in the form of a +4 bonus to Dexterity. Malack would get that +2 in addition to the bonus from his natural Dexterity, +3 from being a Cleric, plus whatever bonus his racial HD give to Reflex saves (the matter of Malack's race is somewhat controversial). Let's be generous, call him a yuan-ti halfblood, and thus give him a bonus of +5 to Reflex saves from his racial hit dice. Assuming average racial Dexterity, that's a total Reflex save of +11 (+3 Dex +5 RHD +3 Cleric).

V in this scenario, on the other hand, is a wizard casting a level 8 spell with an Intelligence of 23 and with no known boosts to her save DC, which means a DC of 24. Malack would have to roll a natural 13 or better to save against it or, assuming Protection from Daylight isn't a factor for whatever reason, either because it doesn't block Sunburst or because it's been dispelled by the time V gets around to casting Sunburst, be destroyed (or possibly reduced to a gaseous state). Sunburst destroys undead that are specifically harmed by bright light if they do not save against it. Damage dice do not come into it.

And V is equally vulnerable to a cleric wide selection of save or die spells targeting his weak fortitude.

Show me a spell, and I'll show you a defense. Of the save-or-die spells Malack has actually cast, V has a very simple defense: Overland Flight.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Why doesn't V use a wizard's staff?

Simple. Nobody ever called hir smart.

[Dr.Epic]

Because it's not necessary. Rich already has to write V out of half the fight scenes so that V doesn't utterly dominate them in 1-2 rounds. V can solo entire encounters that would wipe the floor with the rest of the order combined excepting maybe Durkon. Malack? Quickened Dispel Magic, Sunburst, take 32d6 (16d6 for being undead, x 2 for being a sunlight-vulnerable creature after QDM removes Protection from Sunlight.), and chances are that's that. Note Durkon had to get into touch range and make an attack roll to do significantly less damage. V would take one round (to reduce Malack to gaseous, anyhow; obviously a little extra work goes into actually destroying a vampire.)

All it would require is V preparing Sunburst itself, since a QDM is useful enough to expect s/he'd have at least one available anyhow. Sunburst is an Evocation so I see no reason unspliced V wouldn't have it (we've only seen it used spliced) and knowing they're expecting to run into Xykon at some point while there, V could well have it prepared.

Spoiler

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V is in fact likely to save the Order's bacon pretty soon - most spell slots should still be sitting there unused as soon as V stops guilt-tripping. I imagine you're about to see exactly how unnecessary it is to give V any more magic items.

Really? V can solo it? He wouldn't let pride or some other foolish emotion get in the way and squander his awesome power? How'd that fight against Xykon when he had two epic caster bound to him go again?

[Cavenskull]

Magic staves seem rare.

Leeky activates a staff here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html . Given his surname, he's probably earned a reputation in the world for "that guy who uses the staff," which suggests staff ownership might be something unusual...

Should we make similar assumptions based on Roy's and Durkon's surnames?

[FlawedParadigm]

Really? V can solo it? He wouldn't let pride or some other foolish emotion get in the way and squander his awesome power? How'd that fight against Xykon when he had two epic caster bound to him go again?

1) You're just arguing to argue now, and trying to substitute emotion for numbers, at that. 2) V's entire plotline since the splice has been about how V's been learning to be less prideful and more thoughtful. 200 strips later, one might think that V would probably not make the same mistake this time, yes.

Which is...drum roll...exactly why V had to be written out of the fight!

[jere7my]

Should we make similar assumptions based on Roy's and Durkon's surnames?

You don't reckon Greenhilt has some connection to that green-hilted sword Roy carries around?

[Cavenskull]

You don't reckon Greenhilt has some connection to that green-hilted sword Roy carries around?

I'm quite sure that it does. Any by the logic presented previously regarding Leeky Windstaff, that would suggest that swords (or at least hilts) must be rare, based on Roy's surname. And of course, Durkon's surname by the same logic would also suggest that shields are rare.

[jere7my]

I'm quite sure that it does. Any by the logic presented previously regarding Leeky Windstaff, that would suggest that swords (or at least hilts) must be rare, based on Roy's surname. And of course, Durkon's surname by the same logic would also suggest that shields are rare.

Swords with green hilts are presumably rare enough to serve as a distinguishing characteristic, yes. That's what surnames do, historically — they distinguish "Roy the Smith" from "Roy of Vinci" from "Roy the Guy with the Green-Hilted Sword." Greenhilt, at the time it became a surname, wouldn't have been much use if everybody was running around with a green-hilted sword.

[Stormlock]

V actually has a much simpler way to shut down (albeit not kill) Malack: forcecage. Malack can likely escape with word of recall, but it puts him out of the fight for the meagre cost of a relatively low level spell. Sunburst is a strong option, but Malack could make the reflex save quite easily depending on his stats (he might have better than 10 base dex to begin with), equipment, and buffs. Vampires get lightning reflexes too iirc, which is another 2 free reflex save.

[Magdela]

Well the funnier thing is he's complaining about V having to be written out of fights and...suggesting other ways that would write V out of fights. It's not V's physical presence that needs to be curbed to keep challenges to the Order as challenges, it's V's (and to some extent, Durkon's) spells. I mean, you saw not too long ago what a single Holy Word did to the ENTIRE LINEAR GUILD, barring Tarquin, and him only for being higher level. When you can accomplish that kind of upheaval of an engagement in a single standard action, you're a fearsome beast in your own right.

Consider Fireball: a third level spell, and yet by tenth level, even hitting a lousy three creatures, it can do more damage (30d6 total between all three targets) it can do more damage than some melee builds will do in Epic levels. V can throw 20-odd spells of that or better power level around per day. While flying completely out of bow or melee range, if outdoors. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fireball

Once again, you've fallen prey to the fallacy that V thinks to do these things. Like I said, it is not the playstyle that you want. It is Rich's writing. One effective use of Holy Word was a freak accident in itself, even the Order being surprised.

I don't really see how you have a foot to stand on.

[Stormlock]

You seem to be under the impression that V hasn't been the most effective member of the order by a mile. Let me jog your memory:

Chimera. All V.
Black dragon. All V (as a lizard no less.)
Zzditri and Kilkil 2v1? V's got you covered.
Colossal pit fiend? Good thing V is around. To be fair Durkon did lower it's saving throw.

Not to mention repeatededly demonstrating the ability to handle entire groups with a handful of spells, like the ogre tribe or the thri-keen slavers. Sure, the order can handle them too... by working together and fighting a protracted battle.

Even when fighting in a completely halfassed way V demonstrates the ability to outshine the rest of the order COMBINED. If he actually fought effectively (Why hello there Redcloak. Don't suppose you can cast Disintegrate can you? No? Forcecage. Bye. How about still metamagic? No? Meet my grasping hand and enjoy being pinned while Scruffy kills you.) he would have broken the comic in half a dozen times by now. Then again, this is even worse for Redcloak and Xykon (ESPECIALLY Xykon) so eh, whatever.

[zimmerwald1915]

(Why hello there Redcloak. Don't suppose you can cast Disintegrate can you? No? Forcecage. Bye.

Not to pick nits, but Redcloak can cast Disintegrate.

[Souju]

this thread is giving me great insights into why so many demons and devils have immunities and resistances out the wazoo in 3.5 and pathfinder...

[Kislath]

I would guess it's because V hasn't yet found one worth lugging around. Let hir find a Staff Of Wizardry sometime and we'll put this theory to the test.

[Silverionmox]

It's not that "people think" it's abnormal. It is abnormal, because the system requires magic items to function as intended, and is very explicit about the fact.

That's what I mean what I say "D&D has devalued the idea of magic items".

[Cavenskull]

Swords with green hilts are presumably rare enough to serve as a distinguishing characteristic, yes. That's what surnames do, historically — they distinguish "Roy the Smith" from "Roy of Vinci" from "Roy the Guy with the Green-Hilted Sword." Greenhilt, at the time it became a surname, wouldn't have been much use if everybody was running around with a green-hilted sword.

Then how did surnames like Smith, Baker, Hunter, and Mason ever come about, when a person could count on finding people of such occupations just about everywhere? A defining characteristic does not have to be particularly unusual or rare for it to be worth using to describe someone.

Maybe a Windstaff is unusual, but that shouldn't mean that any staff at all is unusual. After all, the druid's name was Leeky Windstaff, not Leeky Staff. My point was that simply having a reference to an item in a name does not by itself make that class of item rare or unusual.

[FlawedParadigm]

Once again, you've fallen prey to the fallacy that V thinks to do these things. Like I said, it is not the playstyle that you want. It is Rich's writing. One effective use of Holy Word was a freak accident in itself, even the Order being surprised.

I don't really see how you have a foot to stand on.

Uhm...V does think to do these things. Young black dragon. Ancient black dragon. Chimera. Yukyuk/the drow, the summoned devil. Honestly the only two encounters non-spliced V has really flubbed were the Death Knight (which was a couple of levels higher and almost designed to destroy casters) and Leeky Windstaff, and that's largely in part because Druids are the only class even more ridiculous (speaking from a single class perspective.) Then there were the ogres, the titanium elementals, most of the goblin encounters...why, oddly, it looks as though V has been the deciding factor in over half the Order's victories!

If you don't see how I have a foot to stand on, try taking the sack off your head. A little light might improve your vision vastly.

[oppyu]

Is reshaping the laws of physics with naught but my incredible intellect not enough for you plebiscites? Do you also require me to lug around a phallic symbol to pointlessly supplement my ultimate arcane power? Perhaps I should also carry a bow, in case scorching my enemy to cinders with my bare hands is not sufficiently entertaining for you.

[King of Nowhere]

Are you sure? While Malack's ECL is bound to be quite high, his actual caster level, which depends only on his cleric levels (and possibly magic items) and not his racial hit dice and level adjustment, is not. It's not inconceivable that V could win an opposed caster level check versus Malack's eleven or so cleric levels, though V does have a poor record of making opposed caster level checks.

That said, this might not actually matter. Sunburst is not natural sunlight, and Protection from Daylight might not hold against it. Protection from Daylight being a homebrew spell, we will not know unless and until it's tested on-panel.


The Vampire template gives a +2 bonus to Reflex saves in the form of a +4 bonus to Dexterity. Malack would get that +2 in addition to the bonus from his natural Dexterity, +3 from being a Cleric, plus whatever bonus his racial HD give to Reflex saves (the matter of Malack's race is somewhat controversial). Let's be generous, call him a yuan-ti halfblood, and thus give him a bonus of +5 to Reflex saves from his racial hit dice. Assuming average racial Dexterity, that's a total Reflex save of +11 (+3 Dex +5 RHD +3 Cleric).

V in this scenario, on the other hand, is a wizard casting a level 8 spell with an Intelligence of 23 and with no known boosts to her save DC, which means a DC of 24. Malack would have to roll a natural 13 or better to save against it or, assuming Protection from Daylight isn't a factor for whatever reason, either because it doesn't block Sunburst or because it's been dispelled by the time V gets around to casting Sunburst, be destroyed (or possibly reduced to a gaseous state). Sunburst destroys undead that are specifically harmed by bright light if they do not save against it. Damage dice do not come into it.

Malack is level 11 or 12 from our knowledge. Assumingn his spell gives some protection (maybe it makes him no more vulnerable to sunburst that a regular human), V would need more than 10 to dispel. And then malack would still stand a chance in 3 of making the saving throw. Overall, chances of instakill aren't extremely high. And that's assuming malack don't have any magical item to boost saving throws. Ok, in oots world people don't seem to have those, otherwise belkar wouldn't be stopped by a hold person. But something worth +5 to all saving throws should cost 25000 gp, and I expect any high level adventurer to have it.
Malack, on the other hand, could reach V (if V flies M could use some other spell, or even a magi item to duplicate the effect) andd use slay living. V should have little chances against it, unless durkon did cast a death ward on him.

Show me a spell, and I'll show you a defense.

That's more opr less the point I'm trying to make. It applies to wizards too. A wizard's spells can be resisted or countered. And exactly because wizards are so powerful, I expect any powerful person around to devote more resources and preparation to counter wizards rather than warriors. That will result in soome measure of balancing.


That said, I think the original creators of the game wanted wizards to be more like V oor Xykon than like the powergamers depic them. Powerful wizards, but by no means powerful enough to do everything on their own. Powergamers then just broke the game, finding more powerful ways to use the tools they were given. In many aspects, D&D is balanced for a typical party of average players with small knowledge of powergamming. If they wanted to balance it for powergamers, they would have to make spells much weaker, and that would have left wizards unusable to any othher kind of player.
So I think the wizard in oots are more faithful to the way they were originally conceived.
Also powergamers in my opinion tend to assume too much about what spells one may have prepared. A wizard only have a few high level spells available and certainly cannot have all high level spells in the manual ready to use. In the aformentioned example, the quickened dispel + sunburst combo would take two out of 7 or 8 spell slots above level 7, and would be useful only against a vampire cleric. dispel, capping at +10, would be almost useless against any foe oof V's level who do not suffer a huge level adjustment, and sunburst have little effect against anyone who is not undead. V himself states in his fight with Z that even a wizard cannot be prepared against everything. here are scrolls to cover the gaps, and V has been shown using them, but they are expensive. they may be the reason V don't have as many magic items as the rest of the party.

Another thing, just because casters are more powerful it don't mean other classes are useless. Even if they have to fall to a supportive role, they can still make the difference. In the wheel of time saga channelers have powers comparable to high level casters in D&D (except they don't have inccreased hit dice and still die like everyone else when hit), while even the best swordsman will be comparable to no more than 5th or 6th level fighter. And yet powerful channelers ask people with pointy metal stick to guard their back, and have their lives saved by them.

[Kish]

One effective use of Holy Word was a freak accident in itself, even the Order being surprised.

Huh? It was a freak accident that Roy's plan played out almost exactly the way he planned it to, except that the Linear Guild+Tarquin was able to retreat?

[Aldrakan]

V actually has a much simpler way to shut down (albeit not kill) Malack: forcecage. Malack can likely escape with word of recall, but it puts him out of the fight for the meagre cost of a relatively low level spell.

Couldn't Malack just use Gaseous Form and go right through? At least in the comic it's always been presented as an actual cage with bars, not a solid energy barrier.

[King of Nowhere]

One effective use of Holy Word was a freak accident in itself, even the Order being surprised.

Huh? It was a freak accident that Roy's plan played out almost exactly the way he planned it to, except that the Linear Guild+Tarquin was able to retreat?

I think that's pretty much the point of spellcasting in this comic: if a spellcaster can prepare and act according to the plan, he's very strong. but if one has to improvise in front of an unexpected event, he will be much less effective.
except for a sorceror, who trades a lesser capability to prepare for a better performance when unprepared.

[Kish]

Couldn't Malack just use Gaseous Form and go right through? At least in the comic it's always been presented as an actual cage with bars, not a solid energy barrier.

Either bars of force or solid walls of force, caster's choice.

The smaller solid walls version would have been too small to contain the ancient black dragon at all; Malack is slightly smaller than her.

I am, however, blinking at the idea that level 7 is "relatively low-level."

[Aldrakan]

Either bars of force or solid walls of force, caster's choice.

The smaller solid walls version would have been too small to contain the ancient black dragon at all; Malack is slightly smaller than her.

Ah, thanks. I was misled by Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage to believe that was the standard form.

[Stormlock]

Well, 7th level is a bit up there, but it's still lower than 8th + a dispel, or a half dozen disintegrates and fireballs it would take otherwise. And forcecage is a spell we know V has, is evocation (a free slot) and is probably the most powerful spell for that entire level. The duration, lack of saving throw, and immunity to dispel are all insanely good features. It's one of the most broken spells in the game. It costs thousands of gold to cast for a reason.

Also, it hardly takes a powergamer to make a wizard overpowering in DnD. The game isn't balanced at any level of skill. It doesn't take a power gamer to realize that Fly will be really useful for not getting your face stabbed, or that even weakling critters like summoned monsters 1 or unseen servant can trigger traps for you, or that given a relatively short amount of time compared to actual labour, Wall of Stone and Stoneshape can be used to build an entire fortress, accessible by flight (or even dimension door/teleport) only no less. The list goes on. My personal favourite being Rope Trick. That spell should be 9th level, not 2nd.

And remember, you're comparing this to an unoptimized Fighter (or worse yet, Monk or Barbarian) who's skillset includes doing things a commoner can do, and hitting stuff as long as it's AC isn't too high. You know when you're playing a video game and keep asking yourself "Why doesn't the villain just not open the door? They have no way to get in otherwise." Well that only applies to fighters. They get stopped by doors, holes in the floor, walls, monsters made entirely out of stuff you can't hurt with a metal stick, things that move faster than them and have a ranged attack, things that can fly, things that are invisible, bodies of water, lack of food, long distances, and worst and most common of all; other fighters of comparable level in slightly greater numbers. A wizard is rarely stopped by any of those things for more than a round or two, and almost never for more than an entire day to memorize -a- (not 'the', there are many options) correct spell.

[jere7my]

Then how did surnames like Smith, Baker, Hunter, and Mason ever come about, when a person could count on finding people of such occupations just about everywhere? A defining characteristic does not have to be particularly unusual or rare for it to be worth using to describe someone.

When those names (which are among the oldest) came into being, there would have been only a handful of smiths in a town (at most), so "Roy the Smith" would be sufficient to distinguish him from "Roy the Mason" and "Roy the Baker". People didn't move from town to town much back then, and if someone moved to a town that already had a Roy the Smith he'd be called "Roy from Vinci" or wherever he came from.

The Stickverse, like many D&D campaign worlds, is more cosmopolitan then an authentic medieval world, so the names have to be more specific. Communication and travel over long distances are possible; Roy the Fighter isn't specific enough if people go from city to city on a regular basis and encounter many different fighters. Thus we get "Roy Greenhilt" et al.

[Cavenskull]

When those names (which are among the oldest) came into being, there would have been only a handful of smiths in a town (at most), so "Roy the Smith" would be sufficient to distinguish him from "Roy the Mason" and "Roy the Baker". People didn't move from town to town much back then, and if someone moved to a town that already had a Roy the Smith he'd be called "Roy from Vinci" or wherever he came from.

The Stickverse, like many D&D campaign worlds, is more cosmopolitan then an authentic medieval world, so the names have to be more specific. Communication and travel over long distances are possible; Roy the Fighter isn't specific enough if people go from city to city on a regular basis and encounter many different fighters. Thus we get "Roy Greenhilt" et al.

I think this is starting to go off on a tangent. I see no fault with your argument above, but I don't see how it applies to snikrept's original claim that being named Windstaff would suggest that staffs in general are rare. Here's what snikrept said before:

Leeky activates a staff here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html . Given his surname, he's probably earned a reputation in the world for "that guy who uses the staff," which suggests staff ownership might be something unusual...

If I use that same exact logic on Durkon Thundershield, it would go as follows:

Durkon carries a shield here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html . Given his surname, he's probably earned a reputation in the world for "that guy who uses the shield," which suggests shield ownership might be something unusual...

And here's a version for Roy Greenhilt:

Roy wields a sword here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html . Given his surname, he's probably earned a reputation in the world for "that guy who uses the sword," which suggests sword ownership might be something unusual...

Sure, a Greenhilt sword might be rare.
Sure, a Thundershield might be unusual.
Sure, a Windstaff might be unusual.

But does that by itself justify a claim that all swords, shields, or staffs rare? I think not.

[WoLong]

Staffs are associated with stability, wisdom, maturity, and age.

Vaarsuvius, although intelligent, is a bit childish and unstable. Staffs do not reflect his personality.

[Grogmir]

This thread lacks the usual humour and good nature I normally expect of GITP.

But from might view you're both right and wrong.

The Giant has specifically said he has to write V out of battles, because of his power.
There is only so far you can stretch the "characters don't make optimal choices". Just having V around means he'll tip the balance in the orders way.

However those that say its cause he can "one-shot" or dominate are going to far the other way. This is optimal 3.5 thinking... This is Giants story and its been shown that Melee characters are closer to Casters than is considered "normal" in the theorists eyes.
'Eck to paraphrase the giant he said, "If you're expecting perfect DnD tactics, go somewhere else".

~ ~ ~

As for why he doesn't have a staff? Who knows. there's no evidence. Personally just think its an art choice.