Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

[Raineh Daze]

But part of it is also just because, as much as I hate to admit it, D&D 3.5 is not half as simulationist as it was intended to be and that game is the foundation for the OotS universe. Humans can successfully interbreed with giant magic lizards and sexless lovecraftian horrors but not dwarves. Even geniuses are unable to identify themselves as a member of their own species without specialist training. And the only physical differences between men and women are on the height/weight table, which doesn't even have the decency to be correlated with Strength.

I rather like the lack of stuff like that (aside from the inability to interbreed with dwarves, which is just itching to be corrected). D&D is complicated enough as it is.

... would also annoy me to have to determine my character's appearance based on stats, because I like deciding appearances. It is an RPG and not an exact world simulator.

[The Giant]

Bringing up that there are indeed some basic gender differences (i.e. bringing up human biology), whether people want to hear it or not, is about as squarely on topic as can be.

Well, I disagree. This thread should be about OOTS specifically and any related media examples—not a general discussion about biology, how it works, and the implications thereof. If someone wants to start a new thread about it in Media Discussions, they can.

But consider this a pre-warning to such a thread that any digression into real-world politics or religion—or any actual sexism—will get the thread locked without a second chance.

[dps]

And, just to show how hard it is for an author to get matters involving gender and gender roles right, here's a quote from the favorite character tournament thread:

Anyway, you're right it wasn't really chauvinistic action, but definitely not gentleman-like. I suppose it's because I find any violence against women really repulsive, so I hate to see Roy brutally kicking Sabine and Miko (even though there are bad guys, they're still girls).

FWIW, the person who posted that apparantly is female.

Yep, writers can't win. I've tried my hand at writing some fiction, but it's never been good enough that I've tried to get anything published, and only once did I even share any of it with anyone. After this discussion, even if I ever write something that I think might be good enough to get published, I'm not sure I'd want to.

[lio45]

Whether you understand it or not, Rich has already echoed the sentiment that the "bodybuilding stuff" is off-topic.

Off-limits, not off-topic.

Well, I disagree. This thread should be about OOTS specifically and any related media examples—not a general discussion about biology, how it works, and the implications thereof. If someone wants to start a new thread about it in Media Discussions, they can.

But consider this a pre-warning to such a thread that any digression into real-world politics or religion—or any actual sexism—will get the thread locked without a second chance.

No problem -- it's your sandbox, you're the one drawing the line.

[Shadowknight12]

Exactly... What's all this BS about taking stuff to PM?

Really, I have a very hard time understanding why some forumers would actually want something as central to the topic at hand be swept under the rug (a.k.a. switched to PM). It's just baffling.

The Giant has given you the green light to make such a thread. If you want, do so and drop a link in this one for people who were following that discussion and would like to know how it continues.

And the only physical differences between men and women are on the height/weight table

I would consider this to be a very good thing. If it were up to me, those tables would not even differentiate between genders.

[Raineh Daze]

I would consider this to be a very good thing. If it were up to me, those tables would not even differentiate between genders.

I just checked, and one of my closest friends falls outside the given height range for a human female. Fortunately, I don't think I've ever been required to use the table.

[jere7my]

Off-limits, not off-topic.

"This thread should be about OOTS specifically and any related media examples—not a general discussion about biology." Off-topic.

[Shadowknight12]

I just checked, and one of my closest friends falls outside the given height range for a human female. Fortunately, I don't think I've ever been required to use the table.

They are not required. They are purely optional. Thankfully.

Do I need to bring up That RPG Which Must Not Be Named? Best possible example to argue against simulationism in terms of gender and sexuality.

[Raineh Daze]

They are not required. They are purely optional. Thankfully.

Do I need to bring up That RPG Which Must Not Be Named? Best possible example to argue against simulationism in terms of gender and sexuality.

Nearly did it myself. Also as an example of just how much rolling must be done to 'simulate' anything, at which point you're playing 'Be a Computer: The Game'.

So... where were we before this?

[dps]

I just checked, and one of my closest friends falls outside the given height range for a human female. Fortunately, I don't think I've ever been required to use the table.

IIRC, according to the table, it's not possible for a human male of my height to weigh as much as I do. Granted, I'm overweight, but I'm not that badly overweight.

[Water_Bear]

dps brings up a good point; as Haley mentions while fighting Tsukiko, there is a lot of segregating women in fights. This comic is actually really really good at letting the women get bloodied without getting fetishistic IMO, but I'm curious how other feel about that.

I just checked, and one of my closest friends falls outside the given height range for a human female. Fortunately, I don't think I've ever been required to use the table.

Not to mention that the system would routinely generate really odd results; average weight for a human man was 600lbs and 425lbs for a human woman.

BAD MATH ALERT!

Hmm, the weird thing is that now looking at the proper way to do it, I can't exist either. I do plan on losing enough weight this summer to be capable of becoming an adventurer though, so I guess that's okay?

[lio45]

"This thread should be about OOTS specifically and any related media examples—not a general discussion about biology." Off-topic.

"This thread should be about OOTS specifically and any related media examples—not a general discussion about biology" totally reads as "off-limits" to me.

"This thread should be about X, not Y" means Y is an unwelcome topic; off-limits. (In the case of this thread, X leads directly to Y, so it should not come as a surprise that Y popped up very naturally after a couple pages, until it was specifically stated as off-limits on page 19 by the Giant himself.)

[dps]

Not to mention that the system would routinely generate really odd results; average weight for a human man was 600lbs and 425lbs for a human woman.

OK, either I mis-remember the table (maybe getting it confused with a table from another game) or you have mis-read it. As I said, I've overweigh, but I definately weigh a LOT less than 600 lbs.

I'm 5'9", and back when I was playing D&D my memory is that the most a 5'9" human male could weigh was 195 lbs. At the time, I weighed about 210.

EDIT: Ah, I see now that it was a math error on your part. Good; I'll admit to being out of shape, but I really don't want anyone to think that I weigh 600 lbs.

[Shadowknight12]

Nearly did it myself. Also as an example of just how much rolling must be done to 'simulate' anything, at which point you're playing 'Be a Computer: The Game'.

So... where were we before this?

You hit the nail with that observation. Spot on.

Hmmmm... I recall we were debating how awesome it'd be if Hinjo was gay, but that might just be my inner fanboy showing. There were also bad memories about Miko and Celia, but the sooner we put that to rest, the better.

We could discuss Sabine's sexuality and whether it's empowering or disempowering (or neither) for women and LGBTQ+ people.

I personally think that the Giant has done such a good job showing depth and character for her that I am convinced that she doesn't merely exist to titillate the straight male audience, that she exists as a mostly fleshed out character, with virtues and flaws, and whose sexuality is only a part of the whole and not the entire character.

But I can see how others might disagree.

dps brings up a good point; as Haley mentions while fighting Tsukiko, there is a lot of segregating women in fights. This comic is actually really really good at letting the women get bloodied without getting fetishistic IMO, but I'm curious how other feel about that.

Pretty sure I expressed my views on the subject several pages ago.

[Water_Bear]

We could discuss Sabine's sexuality and whether it's empowering or disempowering (or neither) for women and LGBTQ+ people.

I personally think that the Giant has done such a good job showing depth and character for her that I am convinced that she doesn't merely exist to titillate the straight male audience, that she exists as a mostly fleshed out character, with virtues and flaws, and whose sexuality is only a part of the whole and not the entire character.

But I can see how others might disagree.

Can I take a middle ground and say her sexuality is probably disempowering for women and (bi/pan)sexuals but also unlikely to be intended purely to titillate and done surprisingly well?

Succubi / Incubi in myth are terrifying demonic beings whose visitations are heralded by nightmarish paralysis and followed by drained sickness. Succubi in D&D are demons with big knockers who like to party. There's very little that can be done with either to be empowering; a succubus is either going to be characterized as a predator or a slut. I certainly can't imagine how I would write Sabine better than Rich has given that baggage.

Plus, I think her sexuality has been well handled; jokes are made about it, but she isn't the butt of those jokes. I think it informs her character and adds conflict to the story, both externally with Nale and with her own feelings for him despite her nature.

Pretty sure I expressed my views on the subject several pages ago.

The thread is moving at the speed of a freight train, so please forgive me for missing your post.

[lio45]

I would consider this to be a very good thing. If it were up to me, those tables would not even differentiate between genders.

Or you could simply go one tiny little step further and just say those tables should not even exist; if you want your character to be short and heavy, or tall and thin, then why not?

[Raineh Daze]

Or you could simply go one tiny little step further and just say those tables should not even exist; if you want your character to be short and heavy, or tall and thin, then why not?

I think the point of it is to give an impression of the general proportions of each of the races in comparison to one another, honestly. And that does need to be somewhere.

[dps]

Or you could simply go one tiny little step further and just say those tables should not even exist; if you want your character to be short and heavy, or tall and thin, then why not?

Think people have already said or implied as much. Though some of the criticism is more along the lines of the table being poorly designed than anything involving gender issues.

[Shadowknight12]

Can I take a middle ground and say her sexuality is probably disempowering for women and (bi/pan)sexuals but also unlikely to be intended purely to titillate and done surprisingly well?

Succubi / Incubi in myth are terrifying demonic beings whose visitations are heralded by nightmarish paralysis and followed by drained sickness. Succubi in D&D are demons with big knockers who like to party. There's very little that can be done with either to be empowering; a succubus is either going to be characterized as a predator or a slut. I certainly can't imagine how I would write Sabine better than Rich has given that baggage.

Plus, I think her sexuality has been well handled; jokes are made about it, but she isn't the butt of those jokes. I think it informs her character and adds conflict to the story, both externally with Nale and with her own feelings for him despite her nature.

I agree with the general design, but I think that her relationship to Elan and the IFCC, and her defiance of Qarr (coupled with her Banishment speech) were excellent touches of character depth and characterisations that helped move her away from the "purely fanservice" role.

I think the problem mainly comes from what I mentioned before about the danger of the single story (all credit goes to the wonderful Chimamanda Adichie). The problem with characters like Sabine is not inherent in them. There's nothing wrong with an evil bisexual woman. Bisexual women have every right to be antagonists, and to use their sexuality against others if that's what they want. Saying "this characterisation is wrong!" is flat-out ignorant.

The problem with stereotypes is not that they are untrue, it's that they are incomplete. The problem lies not in how Sabine was depicted, but in the fact that Sabine fits squarely into the single story that we're told about about bisexual people (and "women as temptresses" too). The problem is not her, specifically, it's the lack of other stories of people like her. In the "woman" area, we have some positive examples of women who are portrayed differently. Haley, despite being used for fanservice more than once, is an independent woman who fights, is good-aligned and has a different personality and approach to sexuality than Sabine. Celia and Miko, maligned though they might be, are also women who are not like Sabine at all.

In terms of LGBTQ+ depictions? That's where the single story comes into play, and where the depiction of Sabine becomes problematic. When the most important depiction of an LGBTQ+ person falls squarely into a stereotype, we have the danger of the single story.

[mandatory bit about not blaming the Giant for his decisions nor demanding him to change anything, and so on and so forth]

The thread is moving at the speed of a freight train, so please forgive me for missing your post.

Oh, no problem, it was just a gentle ribbing.

Or you could simply go one tiny little step further and just say those tables should not even exist; if you want your character to be short and heavy, or tall and thin, then why not?

I've never used the tables, so I wouldn't miss them. However, I know some players need a little help to imagine the height differences between elves, halflings, dwarves and humans, or how heavy they are (dwarves, for example, seem to be heavier than humans, despite being quite shorter). I'd never want it as a restriction, but it could make for a useful general guideline.

[lio45]

I think the point of it is to give an impression of the general proportions of each of the races in comparison to one another, honestly. And that does need to be somewhere.

Is that info not already in the text? Do we need a table to know a halfling's supposed to be short?

Think people have already said or implied as much.

Yep, that was my point: with what people have said/implied so far, I'd fully expect to hear that those tables are absolutely irrelevant.

[Raineh Daze]

Is that info not already in the text? Do we need a table to know a halfling's supposed to be short?

No, but what's wrong with compiling it in one place? Also, tables are nice. Tables summarise stuff in one place. I hate having to comb text to find a tiny detail. Also, neat formatting.

[Grey Watcher]

I agree with the general design, but I think that her relationship to Elan and the IFCC, and her defiance of Qarr (coupled with her Banishment speech) were excellent touches of character depth and characterisations that helped move her away from the "purely fanservice" role.

I think the problem mainly comes from what I mentioned before about the danger of the single story (all credit goes to the wonderful Chimamanda Adichie). The problem with characters like Sabine is not inherent in them. There's nothing wrong with an evil bisexual woman. Bisexual women have every right to be antagonists, and to use their sexuality against others if that's what they want. Saying "this characterisation is wrong!" is flat-out ignorant.

The problem with stereotypes is not that they are untrue, it's that they are incomplete. The problem lies not in how Sabine was depicted, but in the fact that Sabine fits squarely into the single story that we're told about about bisexual people (and "women as temptresses" too). The problem is not her, specifically, it's the lack of other stories of people like her. In the "woman" area, we have some positive examples of women who are portrayed differently. Haley, despite being used for fanservice more than once, is an independent woman who fights, is good-aligned and has a different personality and approach to sexuality than Sabine. Celia and Miko, maligned though they might be, are also women who are not like Sabine at all.

In terms of LGBTQ+ depictions? That's where the single story comes into play, and where the depiction of Sabine becomes problematic. When the most important depiction of an LGBTQ+ person falls squarely into a stereotype, we have the danger of the single story.

[mandatory bit about not blaming the Giant for his decisions nor demanding him to change anything, and so on and so forth]



Oh, no problem, it was just a gentle ribbing.



I've never used the tables, so I wouldn't miss them. However, I know some players need a little help to imagine the height differences between elves, halflings, dwarves and humans, or how heavy they are (dwarves, for example, seem to be heavier than humans, despite being quite shorter). I'd never want it as a restriction, but it could make for a useful general guideline.

You know, this whole thread has been reminding me of a failed TV series called Normal, Ohio. John Goodman played a beer-swilling, blue-collar gay guy. Of the many criticisms heaped on the show from all angles, one was that audiences wouldn't believe Goodman's character because he didn't fit into the prevalent stereotype of gay men as effete, cultured, and physically fit.

[Shadowknight12]

You know, this whole thread has been reminding me of a failed TV series called Normal, Ohio. John Goodman played a beer-swilling, blue-collar gay guy. Of the many criticisms heaped on the show from all angles, one was that audiences wouldn't believe Goodman's character because he didn't fit into the prevalent stereotype of gay men as effete, cultured, and physically fit.

At the risk of sounding repetitive, behold the power of the single story.

Chimamanda Adichie was told by her American college professor that her novel was not "authentically African" (I left a link to the whole conference earlier in the thread) because the main character was a middle-aged, middle-class college professor like him. The characters, he said, were not starving, they drove cars, and were, in short, very much like him.

Imagine that. An African student, being told by an American college professor (who, by all rights, ought to know better), that her novel was not authentically African. The pervasive, frightening power of the single story.

That's why I said earlier that Roy as a gay man would have been unbelievably progressive, and not just because he's a masculine warrior, and who happens to be intelligent and well-rounded, blending the "jock" and "nerd" stereotypes to form something completely different. No, I think the most progressive thing would have been the stint with the Belt. That would have never, ever happened to a gay man. The point of that, narratively, was to show him what it's like to walk a mile in the other gender's shoes, and to help him gain wisdom and character growth. Nobody actually realises that all of that is just as valid and applicable to gay guys too. Just because I like dudes a lot more than I like girls doesn't mean I have some ineffable insight into the opposite gender. I am just as capable of being inadvertently sexist as a purely straight guy, and I need to learn my lesson too.

But I digress.

[blauregen]

Even that wouldn't have prevented the possibility of them not being an opposite-sexed couple: DnD does, afterall, have mechanics for transgenderism, and there are plenty of same sex couples in the real world who are the both the biological parents of their children. But it does open up more options.

In a way. They have mechanics like the girdle of genderchange, and the most famous Elminster Aumar started his wizard career as a female priestess and ocassionally hung out as a woman later in his ( or her ) career. So technically at least the FR have gender reassignment magic.

From this there is a possibility that V, as an apprentice to a high level wizard, fathered ( or gave birth to ) their children and had hir master perform it on hir later.

Of course, Joe and Jane Commoner are likely too low on the wealth-table to track down a high-level wizard for resolving GID, but there is precedence.

[Raineh Daze]

A cursed belt and one setting's mage does not qualify for what they were saying.

[Cerlis]

Succubi / Incubi in myth are terrifying demonic beings whose visitations are heralded by nightmarish paralysis and followed by drained sickness. Succubi in D&D are demons with big knockers who like to party.

pretty sure you are confusing player's scewed use of Succubi, with actual DnD Succubi.

[Bling Cat]

On the topic of the Giant being afraid of getting LGBT characters wrong, I think it's worth noting a quote I heard recently from George R.R. Martin (Who I'm sure people will disagree with me on whether he writes good characters of marginalised groups, or whether he is inclusive enough), but no matter what you're viewpoint I think this quote is good. When asked how he's able to write from the perspective of so many different characters with so many different personalities (And Sexes, and since the most recent book, sexualities), he responded with:

I think the one thing that unites all of these people as different as they may be in terms of age and sex and religious faith and whatever is that they all are basically human beings. I write some characters who are like me, although none of them are precisely like me because I was not born into a medieval feudal society. I write characters who are, on the surface at least very unlike me, but in every case for the motivating emotional power I have to look inward, I think all writers do that, you know the only person we ever truly know is ourselves, our hopes, our dreams, our fears, the things that haunt us at night so I think you need empathy and to remember that as different as different types of people may be we all share a common humanity and are not ultimately that different from each other.

Again, not a comment on his writings, I just think that this quote is something every writer should bear in mind when seeking to write characters who are different in some way to them.

[Water_Bear]

pretty sure you are confusing player's scewed use of Succubi, with actual DnD Succubi.

The art assets (boom!), the suggested tactics of seduction rather than coming in the night (yes!), and the way people are familiar with succubi on the table (I am the pun-master!) all are part of how we think about succubi in D&D.

And even at their best, D&D succubi are all about seduction rather than creating demonic offspring* which puts the focus squarely on their sex appeal rather than on the sexual violation that they're supposed to represent. Combine that with the virtual non-existence of incubi, the art and other fluff issues, and it adds up to a pretty clear sign that succubi are supposed to be sexy fun rather than fiendish horror.

*I would love to see this done well in a game some day, with players who were okay with it in advance obviously. Sleep paralysis, demonic possession, body horror, scary children; the incubus has got more horror in it than 90% of the Fiend Folio put together.

[Shadowknight12]

Combine that with the virtual non-existence of incubi

That reminds me, the only time I used the succubus in a game was actually as an incubus (same stats, opposite gender; not the separate creature) who I sent to the party's stoic paladin (who was played by the absolute best roleplayer I have ever met) to give her plenty of roleplaying opportunities as I knew she would undoubtedly seek to redeem him through philosophy. I was going to let her succeed, too (in a Planescape: Torment-esque style).

If the game hadn't been cut short, it would have been pretty awesome to explore the ramifications of the incubus slowly realising that he had a choice, that he could break out from his lifelong purpose if he tried hard enough, that he could be more than a generic tempter.

Sorry, I took a trip down Memory Lane there.

[blauregen]

A cursed belt and one setting's mage does not qualify for what they were saying.

It certainly isn't ubiquitous, but if someone wanted it in a backstory or as a personal quest, having the character seek out and convince an approachable wizard who actually researched that kind of spell seems a plausible way to approach GID in an AD&D-setting.