Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS

[Leirus]

I do not know how important it is the "love interest" thing. Haley, for example, is not Elan's "love interest" in the sense that she was not introduced in the history to fit that role, and is not limited to it. Even Celia, who fits more nicely with the idea (a secondary character whose main link with the group is the fact that she is datig Roy), had her own character developement going on.

And, I have to say, I kind of would like to have a gay character. In the fantasy works I grew up with, there were none, ever. I would love to have a character that was just gay but not stereotypical or anything. Sabine does not much count because she is a succubi. That is just her nature.

(I have to say, I have claimed O-Chul as gay in my mental canon, and I will only let him go if he gets busy with Lian.)

[Shadowknight12]

Not to mention that the matriarchal race is also evil, has pitch black skin, and has what is viewed as poor taste in animals.

Oh, that too. Which makes no sense, as living underground would've left them with exceedingly white skin, not black, but eh. What am I even arguing about. The "matriarch race is evil" thing is actually pretty terrible. If there was a neutral- or good-aligned counterpart, it wouldn't have looked so bad. And the sexual objectification of female drow in official art is downright shameful. Not to mention nonsensical, as they have nobody to impress. Patriarchs didn't go shirtless and emphasised their physical assets for the benefits of the women they were oppressing, so having drow matriarchs dressed in stripperriffic outfits makes absolutel no sense. But, you know. Male Gaze.

Eh, one's PF drow, the other's just grabbing the race for something non-mechanical. Well, and a class for abilities. That one's kind of crazy, skill wise.

Well, so long as it fits the character concept, who are we to criticise?

Which takes me back to 'the Order, as a group, was pretty much irrelevant for this time period'. Firstly, they were kind of dispersed over the city. Then they split up. There was Team Boat, which was doing B-plot stuff until V went crazy, and there was the Resistance side of things, which had Haley leading exactly one member of the Order. It just seems wrong to list it without specifically noting the situation.

Hmmmm, but we could just list her as "temporary leader" and cover both her leadership stints. She was, at one point, a leader of both the Order and the Azure Resistance. If you don't think one merits calling her a leader, there's always the other group. That way, everyone's happy.

[Carry2]

Ah, it's that ludicrous part of literary criticism that thinks that the person behind the world is wrong, got it. Never been able to understand that argument, since I sure as hell know what I mean when I write something, so I don't see why Random Person X should be considered just as likely to be right.

If you draw a circle on the wall, but swear blue in the face that you really meant to draw a square, it's still either circular or it's not.

I realise that the interpretation of literary theme/structure is a little less straightforward, but if your audience is persistently getting a different message from the work than what you had in mind, you may need to work on your communication.

[oppyu]

Well, if oppyu is so inclined, and the thread you mention is updated, we could incorporate the strip appearances, crunch some numbers and see what they tell us. While I agree that they're not an exact indication of importance, they're valuable information that merits addition to the thread (again, if oppyu agrees).

Ta-Daaaaaaaa!

Appearances Gender Balance: M 2738, F 841 (21.44%), A 344
Non-PC Appearances Gender Balance: M 1136, F 418 (26.90%)

[Shadowknight12]

Ta-Daaaaaaaa!

Appearances Gender Balance: M 2738, F 841 (21.44%), A 344
Non-PC Appearances Gender Balance: M 1136, F 418 (26.90%)

Huh. Well, would you look at that. One in five and one in four, depending on whether they're PCs or not. While it's better than the leadership gender ratio, it's still more or less in keeping with the rest of the statistical parameters you used.

Thank you for taking the time to compile and calculate that! I can't imagine it must have been easy. My hat off to you!

[Leirus]

I think that Haley definetly qualifies as a leader. Remember, she got to lead in a very difficult time, with Roy's corpse at the other side of an advancing enemy army. She got the corpse back and managed to keep alive all the people she was with (Belkar and Celia). Also people seem to forget that she actually managed to reunite the order

In strip 643 we see that when spliced V returns to the Azurite fleet, Durkon and Elan have left because they got the sending from her.

In strips 646-647 Elan and Durkon arrive to Greysky city to join her and Belkar. They are not teleported there by V.

Additional points for trying to restrain Belkar and somehow managing not to strangle Celia all that time.

It is less obvious because at that point the action was following V, but Haley definetly made a good show, in my view. It is just that she does not like being a leader, and I think that is perfectly fine.

[Raineh Daze]

Well, the 'good' Dark Elves (AKA, what the drow supposedly were before. Forgotten Realms, or D&D as a whole? Can't remember) are really tan too so... that's something, I guess? Apparently it's a curse thingy.

At least we can take solace in the greyness of the other underground races.

Umm... at what point does grabbing a corpse qualify as a feat of leadership? It's a great achievement, but not, in fact, one that involves leading.

So, her successes in leading the OotS: not killing Belkar and getting a Cleric to cast one spell. Uh... that's not really... how shall I put this... leading the group.

[Leirus]

Well, the 'good' Dark Elves (AKA, what the drow supposedly were before. Forgotten Realms, or D&D as a whole? Can't remember) are really tan too so... that's something, I guess? Apparently it's a curse thingy.

At least we can take solace in the greyness of the other underground races.

Umm... at what point does grabbing a corpse qualify as a feat of leadership? It's a great achievement, but not, in fact, one that involves leading.

So, her successes in leading the OotS: not killing Belkar and getting a Cleric to cast one spell. Uh... that's not really... how shall I put this... leading the group.

Grabbing a corpse that is behind enemy lines and carrying it during months while keeping up a fraction of a rebel alliance and ultimately managing to sneak out of a country conquered by an epic level wizard lych to contact a cleric able to contact the rest of the order seems quite feat-y to me. Sure, it is not the same kind of leadership Roy displays, but then again, Haley is not Roy. Her prime objetive was always trying to keep everyone possible alive, reunite the order and resurrect Roy. Which she did.

[Themrys]

Also, I have never argued in favour of patriarchy (on the contrary, I would see it banished from the Fantasy genre). I was arguing against straight people saying that an even gender ratio is fine because that's realistic (as women make up 50% of the population) but that a greater prevalence of LGBT+ characters is too unrealistic because we're minorities and therefore underrepresentation is fair and just when applied to us.

You are actively trying to make an enemy of me, are you?

I didn't say that the number of LGBT characters was unrealistically high, I just said that I don't see see number of gay men as being unrealistically low and am more concerned with the overall lack of women.

If you want to call it opression olympics if I object to the fact that women are put into the category "minority" together with LGBT people, and that authors seem to think one token woman and one token gay male are enough so everyone can feel included, I can't do anything about that.

[Raineh Daze]

Grabbing a corpse that is behind enemy lines and carrying it during months while keeping up a fraction of a rebel alliance and ultimately managing to sneak out of a country conquered by an epic level wizard lych to contact a cleric able to contact the rest of the order seems quite feat-y to me. Sure, it is not the same kind of leadership Roy displays, but then again, Haley is not Roy. Her prime objetive was always trying to keep everyone possible alive, reunite the order and resurrect Roy. Which she did.

And none of that contributes to making 'lead the Order of the Stick' worth noting, because none of it is leading. Grabbing the corpse and carrying it? Irrelevant to leadership! Sneaking out of the country? Irrelevant to leading the group, because only one person from it is with her! Contacting a cleric to tell the others to 'come here'? The closest thing to leadership, but she wasn't leading anyone.

You are actively trying to make an enemy of me, are you?

I didn't say that the number of LGBT characters was unrealistically high, I just said that I don't see see number of gay men as being unrealistically low and am more concerned with the overall lack of women.

If you want to call it opression olympics if I object to the fact that women are put into the category "minority" together with LGBT people, and that authors seem to think one token woman and one token gay male are enough so everyone can feel included, I can't do anything about that.

Number of gay men: one, and a random NPC. Um, that's just a teensy little bit unrealistically low. Because, you know, it implies nonexistence.

And you explicitly said you assume gay men don't feel underrepresented because it's statistically unlikely for a group of six to contain one, and decided that you have more right to object. That is the oppression olympics thing.

[Cavelcade]

Why do we continuously bring up real life in terms of gender and sexuality (and race, though that's not the point of this thread) when the story in question is pure fantasy?

I think the idea is that the fantastical elements in a story (should) exist to act as some kind of metaphor/symbol/sign-that-the-main-character-is-crazy, so their inclusion is justified based on that. While a prevalence of LGBT characters could fulfill those criteria, it would probably be deemed to be more derogatory if they were used in that way. I'd find it...odd, to say the least.

In this story, they obviously also have the link that, well, he's talking about D&D.

Further - while gender equality with regards to strength/magical capability is at least said to be equal, the reason for this isn't brought up. If it's because chicks also have increased hormonal levels that, as well as increasing muscle mass, make them a bit fighty, they should be represented just as much as males in the fighty side of things. If not, then they shouldn't be. The decision should probably rest with the author - however, I agree that in every other area they should be equally represented at minimum, and presumable in some, more represented, simply due to how the numbers work out. Possibly as non-figihty mages? Shopowners, politicians, rulers?

Also, I have never argued in favour of patriarchy (on the contrary, I would see it banished from the Fantasy genre).

Also this seems kind of...self-defeating? Just because something isn't discussed doesn't mean it doesn't exist - fantasy as a way of talking about real world issues would be diminished if the real issue of patriarchal abuse couldn't be discussed.




Also the Drow are hilarious, and the more you think about them, the sadder you get.

That is not the contradiction it seems!

[oppyu]

You are actively trying to make an enemy of me, are you?

I didn't say that the number of LGBT characters was unrealistically high, I just said that I don't see see number of gay men as being unrealistically low and am more concerned with the overall lack of women.

If you want to call it opression olympics if I object to the fact that women are put into the category "minority" together with LGBT people, and that authors seem to think one token woman and one token gay male are enough so everyone can feel included, I can't do anything about that.

It's a bit difficult to agree with your point that only women are underrepresented in the stickverse, when the only gay people shown in OOTS are a succubus and a one-strip gag in the CPPD I don't remember ever seeing.

[Leirus]

And none of that contributes to making 'lead the Order of the Stick' worth noting, because none of it is leading. Grabbing the corpse and carrying it? Irrelevant to leadership! Sneaking out of the country? Irrelevant to leading the group, because only one person from it is with her! Contacting a cleric to tell the others to 'come here'? The closest thing to leadership, but she wasn't leading anyone.

How is working to fullfill the ends of the Order not leading? She could not do anything about Elan, Durkon and V not being there. They were beyond her reach at the time. Left to their own devices, Durkon would sit on his tumbs waiting for her to contact them, Belkar would likely have joined Xykon and V went mad from impotence. She was the one leading her tiny fraction with Belkar and honorary Celia, working towards the resurrection of Roy and the gathering of the party. She always had the initiative in what they did.

Even Roy admits she made an Ok job.

If you are thinking in a more strict definition of leading, like, leading the combat in a dungeon, well, that was not the situation at hand. I think she made an Ok job with what she had. Moreso, I think she did what the situation required, while also having to play checks and balances between a psychopath and an extreme pacifist.

[Raineh Daze]

I think the idea is that the fantastical elements in a story (should) exist to act as some kind of metaphor/symbol/sign-that-the-main-character-is-crazy, so their inclusion is justified based on that. While a prevalence of LGBT characters could fulfill those criteria, it would probably be deemed to be more derogatory if they were used in that way. I'd find it...odd, to say the least.

In this story, they obviously also have the link that, well, he's talking about D&D.

... we shouldn't be allowed fair representation because there's no allegorical reason for it? I... what. So media bias should continue, echoing modern society, simply because there needs to be a reason otherwise, and working to prevent any change to society that would make a difference.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Further - while gender equality with regards to strength/magical capability is at least said to be equal, the reason for this isn't brought up. If it's because chicks also have increased hormonal levels that, as well as increasing muscle mass, make them a bit fighty, they should be represented just as much as males in the fighty side of things. If not, then they shouldn't be. The decision should probably rest with the author - however, I agree that in every other area they should be equally represented at minimum, and presumable in some, more represented, simply due to how the numbers work out. Possibly as non-figihty mages? Shopowners, politicians, rulers?

Biology went out the window the same time you got giant flying magical lizards that talk.

How is it working to fullfill the ends of the Order not leading? She could not do anything about Elan, Durkon and V not being there. They were beyond her reach at the time. Left to their own devices, Durkon would sit on his tumbs waiting for her to contact them, Belkar would likely have joined Xykon and V went mad from impotence. She was the one leading her tiny fraction with Belkar and honorary Celia, working towards the resurrection of Roy and the gathering of the party. She always had the initiative in what they did.

Even Roy admits she made an Ok job.

If you are thinking in a more strict definition of leading, like, leading the combat in a dungeon, well, that was not the situation at hand. I think she made an Ok job with what she had. Moreso, I think she did what the situation required, while also having to play checks and balances between a psychopath and an extreme pacifist.

The sheer fact that the only part of the Order she had any influence on for months on end is a single person is why I keep saying leading the resistance is a better indicator of 'most important group led by a female'. Elan, Durkon, and V were all basically leading themselves.

[Rakoa]

And none of that contributes to making 'lead the Order of the Stick' worth noting, because none of it is leading. Grabbing the corpse and carrying it? Irrelevant to leadership! Sneaking out of the country? Irrelevant to leading the group, because only one person from it is with her! Contacting a cleric to tell the others to 'come here'? The closest thing to leadership, but she wasn't leading anyone.

I think this really depends on what your definition of Leadership. She wasn't standing in front of a group of people, walking first in line if that is what you mean. But she was doing what needed to be done. Events occurred, definitely not according to plan, and she responded to them efficiently. She did exactly what needed to be done, and decisively, to make sure that the group could come together again. Her actions aren't really irrelevant to leading a group just because nobody was with her at the time, because the fact is she was completing very important tasks that nobody else did/was able to.

So yes, you could say it is relatively simple to carry a corpse, sneak it out of a country, and contact the rest of the group through a Cleric. But what she did was save their late leader, bring back his body and reassemble the Order.

But again, this all depends on what you define as "leadership". It is a loose term, but I think it fits her actions.

[Shadowknight12]

You are actively trying to make an enemy of me, are you?

I didn't say that the number of LGBT characters was unrealistically high, I just said that I don't see see number of gay men as being unrealistically low and am more concerned with the overall lack of women.

If you want to call it opression olympics if I object to the fact that women are put into the category "minority" together with LGBT people, and that authors seem to think one token woman and one token gay male are enough so everyone can feel included, I can't do anything about that.

My apologies if I misunderstood or misrepresented your points. They are valid. I would agree that women need more representation, but I disagree on the reasons why. I do not agree that women need more representation merely because they make up 50% of the population. I would strive for representation of women even if their percentages were significantly lower, because I do not think that demography should ever be a reason to decide if a certain sector of the population merits representation or not, and in what amount.

I think the idea is that the fantastical elements in a story (should) exist to act as some kind of metaphor/symbol/sign-that-the-main-character-is-crazy, so their inclusion is justified based on that. While a prevalence of LGBT characters could fulfill those criteria, it would probably be deemed to be more derogatory if they were used in that way. I'd find it...odd, to say the least.

In this story, they obviously also have the link that, well, he's talking about D&D.

Further - while gender equality with regards to strength/magical capability is at least said to be equal, the reason for this isn't brought up. If it's because chicks also have increased hormonal levels that, as well as increasing muscle mass, make them a bit fighty, they should be represented just as much as males in the fighty side of things. If not, then they shouldn't be. The decision should probably rest with the author - however, I agree that in every other area they should be equally represented at minimum, and presumable in some, more represented, simply due to how the numbers work out. Possibly as non-figihty mages? Shopowners, politicians, rulers?

The biology argument doesn't hold up. Not only because the D&D rules actively specify that women are just as physically strong and capable as men, but because the RL biology involved isn't as set in stone as pop science would have you believe (if you wish to discuss that, PM me. I am unclear as to whether that sort of thing is allowed to be discussed in the forums, so I'd err on the safe side).

As for the bit about fantastical elements: nope. That is not valid for every story in the fantasy genre, and I would argue not even for the majority or them, or any significant number. Most of the time, the fantasy races in question are just like humans, with some minor differences. While it's true that fantasy stories explore the human condition just like the rest of literature, it's simply equivocal to ascribe a sense of metaphor or symbolism to every single fantastical aspect. While some stories do work like that, they are most certainly not the majority (and I'd even go as far as to say that they are a small number within the larger fantasy genre), and D&D is most certainly not part of that school of thought.

Also this seems kind of...self-defeating? Just because something isn't discussed doesn't mean it doesn't exist - fantasy as a way of talking about real world issues would be diminished if the real issue of patriarchal abuse couldn't be discussed.

We have historical fiction for that. And academic textbooks. And history books. And contemporary fiction. The list goes on. Fantasy and Sci-Fi are the two main genres were we can explore worlds where such things do not exist. I find it quite tiresome to see the patriarchy in genres where it would be perfectly believable to replace it with any other form of sociological construct.

But, in case it needs to be said, I'm not telling writers what to do. I was merely expressing my wish (which I already know will never come true) to avoid having to deal with the patriarchy in one of the few "safe haven" genres of fiction.

EDIT:

Also, this:

Biology went out the window the same time you got giant flying magical lizards that talk.

Pretty much all there is to say on the subject.

[Leirus]

The sheer fact that the only part of the Order she had any influence on for months on end is a single person is why I keep saying leading the resistance is a better indicator of 'most important group led by a female'. Elan, Durkon, and V were all basically leading themselves.

I would object that Elan and Durkon were actually waiting for her to contact them, but I understand your point... I just... I just think that Haley had to act against her nature and take some hard decissions thinking about the whole party, decissions she would not have taken otherwise so for me that qualifies her as a leader, no matter how many members she had nearby at the time. I think Rakoa explained it better than I can.

[Themrys]

It's a bit difficult to agree with your point that only women are underrepresented in the stickverse, when the only gay people shown in OOTS are a succubus and a one-strip gag in the CPPD I don't remember ever seeing.

I thought there was a gay gladiator couple somewhere in the background. Also, male homosexuality is frequently mentioned (Durkon in his backstory, gladiators, Roy's gender change, cop), while the only mention of female homosexuality was Tsukiko saying that she didn't know the skeleton was female.

Another reason why I think the underrepresentation of women is more of a problem in terms of being unsolvable: There are plot-relevant characters who can turn out to be gay. O-Chul and Malack, for example, while the only "character" who could believably turn out to be female is probably Mr. Scruffy. (As V's sex is never going to be revealed, I don't count V. Besides, V also counts as possibly gay character)

[Raineh Daze]

If the only LGBT+ characters are one-panel gags or jokes (and the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity does not count. It's a cursed item) then there's a problem.

Add in that the only definitively fitting character that isn't a brief gag is a shapechanging incarnation of sex... yeah, that doesn't say good things.

'Solvability' isn't really the issue here, because no-one is suggesting that anything should be done. This thread is about interpretation of what's already there, unless I missed some post contradicting that.

[Rakoa]

I don't have an issue with this whole idea, and I never had time to read through the entire thread, so excuse me if this has been mentioned before...

But if the sexuality of a character isn't plot relevant, then why should it ever come up? This isn't a romance comic, it's meant to be funny. What I'm saying is, if a character's sexuality is not relevant to the plot, should it come up just for the sake of making the comic inclusive or representative of the population?

[dps]

The same goes for sexual orientation. We have things in the genre of fantasy that literally do not exist. Literally. I cannot emphasise that word strongly enough. There is a support group and plenty of group therapy for the laws of physics of fantasy worlds. But suddenly, when it comes to matters of gender, race and sexuality, we start throwing the words "realistic" and "unrealistic" around? That's completely arbitrary. I'd find a world made up entirely of bisexuals far more believable and realistic than your average fantasy world. Mainly because bisexuals exist in the real world, while elves, dragons and magic don't.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but it seems to me that the argument being made is that gay folks deserve "fair" representation in the OotS-verse because they exist in real life, but if you then make the argument that as a fantasy world, even the laws of the universe are literally not those of the real world, so it doesn't have to reflect reality (and, apparantly, shouldn't), doesn't that undercut the prior argument?

[oppyu]

I don't have an issue with this whole idea, and I never had time to read through the entire thread, so excuse me if this has been mentioned before...

But if the sexuality of a character isn't plot relevant, then why should it ever come up? This isn't a romance comic, it's meant to be funny. What I'm saying is, if a character's sexuality is not relevant to the plot, should it come up just for the sake of making the comic inclusive or representative of the population?

Well, the sexuality of characters has come up as relevant enough to be shown on-panel. And with one literal demonic incarnation of illicit sex exception, the sexuality of characters (I do not count one-strip gags as characters) has come up every time with heterosexuality.

[Leirus]

I thought there was a gay gladiator couple somewhere in the background. Also, male homosexuality is frequently mentioned (Durkon in his backstory, gladiators, Roy's gender change, cop), while the only mention of female homosexuality was Tsukiko saying that she didn't know the skeleton was female.

Another reason why I think the underrepresentation of women is more of a problem in terms of being unsolvable: There are plot-relevant characters who can turn out to be gay. O-Chul and Malack, for example, while the only "character" who could believably turn out to be female is probably Mr. Scruffy. (As V's sex is never going to be revealed, I don't count V. Besides, V also counts as possibly gay character)

If you count as V as possibly gay, you should also count him as possibly female. I think he actually helps to balance out the order because he is a blank (not male or female). If the Order had to replace Durkon or Belkar they may get a female member, bringing the parity count to three Males, two Females and one who knows.

The comic could do with more relevant women and some gay characters, but it is also based upon traditional D&D games, starting as a parody of them, so the unbalanced gender count is kind of... to be expected.

However, and this is important, the female characters we actually get are fully developed characters, never a mere "love interest" hanging around, waiting to be stuffed in a fridge. I mean, would anybody doubt that Haley is more important to the party than Belkar or Elan are? That should count for something.

I don't have an issue with this whole idea, and I never had time to read through the entire thread, so excuse me if this has been mentioned before...

But if the sexuality of a character isn't plot relevant, then why should it ever come up? This isn't a romance comic, it's meant to be funny. What I'm saying is, if a character's sexuality is not relevant to the plot, should it come up just for the sake of making the comic inclusive or representative of the population?

It would be a nice touch, yes. I like feeling included. This may sound weird to you, but even an off handed comment by, lets us say, O-Chul about him being gay would make my day.

[Shadowknight12]

(As V's sex is never going to be revealed, I don't count V. Besides, V also counts as possibly gay character)

If V's gender is never going to be revealed, then neither will V's sexuality. V is as much possibly gay as s/he is possibly female.

But if the sexuality of a character isn't plot relevant, then why should it ever come up? This isn't a romance comic, it's meant to be funny. What I'm saying is, if a character's sexuality is not relevant to the plot, should it come up just for the sake of making the comic inclusive or representative of the population?

This is something that gets brought up a lot. Quite often, actually. See, sexuality is an intrinsic part of almost every story, particularly fantasy or sci-fi stories, as they tend to deal with large casts of people, entire nations, and large scales, all of which give us a great cavalcade of relationships.

And if you're straight, you are always automatically included. It doesn't matter if it's not a romance, your sexuality is constantly being included and validated. In this very comic, we've had Durkon/Hylgia, Roy/Celia, Haley/Elan, almost Miko/Roy, Nale/Sabine, Belkar/Jenny, Elan/Samantha, Elan/Therkla and many other instances of heterosexual relationships. Despite the fact that, as you've said it yourself, this isn't a romance comic.

And even in works where less screen time is given to romantic couples, you still have mentions of "her husband", "his wife", "her lover", "Lord and Lady X" and so on and so forth, with the implications of heterosexual relationships. Your sexuality is constantly being included, validated, affirmed, portrayed as normal and positive, cherished, and so on. And this is something that, with no intention to offend anyone, most straight people take for granted. They assume that all of this is normal and expected, and therefore any attempt to include non-straight sexualities or non-cis gender is seen as abnormal and meriting special reasons. Why do we need special reasons? Why do we need to justify our inclusion when you have never had to justify yours? This isn't meant to be antagonistic, I'm merely citing questions that serve as a starting point to examine sexuality in stories and realising that the question you're asking isn't really fair to us.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but it seems to me that the argument being made is that gay folks deserve "fair" representation in the OotS-verse because they exist in real life, but if you then make the argument that as a fantasy world, even the laws of the universe are literally not those of the real world, so it doesn't have to reflect reality (and, apparantly, shouldn't), doesn't that undercut the prior argument?

My argument was not that representation relies on the fact that LGBT+ people exist in real life. That was not what I argued for. What I argued against was the notion that LGBT+ people deserved underrepresentation because they were minorities in real life. That is the logic that I am arguing against.

If a writer decides not to include LGBT+ people because he or she doesn't want to, that's perfectly sound logic. I will still argue in favour of inclusion, but I understand the logic the author is using and I acknowledge it as valid.

The logic that "because it is so in real life, so must it be in fantasy" is simply invalid.

[Cavelcade]

... we shouldn't be allowed fair representation because there's no allegorical reason for it? I... what. So media bias should continue, echoing modern society, simply because there needs to be a reason otherwise, and working to prevent any change to society that would make a difference.

That makes absolutely no sense.

That wasn't my point at all. Women should 100% be more prominent in all forms of media, and less sexualised. LGBT being represented at all is nice - it would be good if they were represented as ordinary members of whatever groups they're in. You seem to have taken what I said incorrectly - bad phrasing on my part, I assume.

I was just stating what I've understood to be the reason it's done. That doesn't make my understanding correct, and I wasn't trying to say that such worlds should never be explored. Though, because it is men writing them mostly, you will often end up with races like that Asari in Mass Effect that are interesting but disturbingly oversexualised.

To be clear, that is not me suggesting they shouldn't be done for that reason - just giving an example of such a society and then remembering the...weirdness of it.

Working against the media bias to under-represent these demographics is something which is a goal that any work in any medium should work for.

Biology went out the window the same time you got giant flying magical lizards that talk.

Why?

I mean, I understand why this means that we can't be in the world we know, but if the author wants to ground the reader then that would be an argument for keeping some things at least recognisable. This doesn't mean they should be kept this way - or even be that way in the entirety of the world. An example would be the Wheel of Time series. It has a lot of issues (especially for LGBT issues, doubly so for the L part pre-Sanderson), but it does at least show women in positions of power being considered normal in a lot of places.

The biology argument doesn't hold up. Not only because the D&D rules actively specify that women are just as physically strong and capable as men, but because the RL biology involved isn't as set in stone as pop science would have you believe (if you wish to discuss that, PM me. I am unclear as to whether that sort of thing is allowed to be discussed in the forums, so I'd err on the safe side).

I am aware that it's not definitive, but the studies I know of show in general that men tend to be ~40-50% stronger than women.

However, this might be something like the 'women are bad at maths' thing - in societies with higher levels of gender equality, women tend to do better at maths than in societies with lower levels.

I am also not a huge fan of evolutionary/biological psychology as being 'set' - but I do think there are some tendencies (like the strength) are, on average at least, correct.

I am happy to continue that discussion over PM, if you want - but I think we're probably on more or less the same page? If you disagree, please do PM me, I'm always interested in learning.




Also - maybe it wasn't clear. I wasn't saying women shouldn't show up as much in the story as men, or that LGBT should be excluded. Just that, even if women are as strong and capable as men, that doesn't mean they have to fulfill the same roles. That could well be gender normativity seeping through in my mindset, though.

As for the bit about fantastical elements: nope. That is not valid for every story in the fantasy genre, and I would argue not even for the majority or them, or any significant number. Most of the time, the fantasy races in question are just like humans, with some minor differences. While it's true that fantasy stories explore the human condition just like the rest of literature, it's simply equivocal to ascribe a sense of metaphor or symbolism to every single fantastical aspect. While some stories do work like that, they are most certainly not the majority (and I'd even go as far as to say that they are a small number within the larger fantasy genre), and D&D is most certainly not part of that school of thought.

Yes, that is probably fair. I just like to be an idealist with my readings, and prefer to see parts of the books as symbolic which probably aren't.

D&D is hilariously/tragically sexist. I won't say it's a pity that Rich didn't choose to examine that in detail given the scale of his project already, but it is a shame his cast is as...gender biased as he is. Given how thoughtful he is in general, I am willing to give him a pass on it - but then again, I am not in one of the groups which is underrepresented, so I'm not trying to suggest everyone should feel the same way about it.

We have historical fiction for that. And academic textbooks. And history books. And contemporary fiction. The list goes on. Fantasy and Sci-Fi are the two main genres were we can explore worlds where such things do not exist. I find it quite tiresome to see the patriarchy in genres where it would be perfectly believable to replace it with any other form of sociological construct.

But, in case it needs to be said, I'm not telling writers what to do. I was merely expressing my wish (which I already know will never come true) to avoid having to deal with the patriarchy in one of the few "safe haven" genres of fiction.

Fair enough, I suppose - but there are people who enjoy Sci-fi/Fantasy more than those genres who do want to read stories that deal with it? Isn't it more reasonable for you to avoid the stories containing it?

[Rakoa]

This isn't meant to be antagonistic, I'm merely citing questions that serve as a starting point to examine sexuality in stories and realising that the question you're asking isn't really fair to us.

Not antagonistic at all. That was an excellent response and helped to clear it up. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

[lio45]

This is not a valid excuse. A world that will feel as natural as possible to the readers would not include elves, dragons, magic, gods of provable existence or monsters. If you are willing to suspend your disbelief for such blatant and fragrant violations of physics, chemistry, biology and every other natural science, it's completely arbitrary to decide that gender equality is too unrealistic.

I don't really agree with that.

Let's say an author decides that it's the men who are bearing the childs and giving birth in his fantasy world, just because. Or that humans reproduce through eggs. That'd actually be a more minor breach of the real world rules as, say, magic...

...but it would likely bug the readers more. Why? Because it goes against what feels natural.

A D&D setting is something that's inspired from the real-life medieval period, with the fantasy bits (dragons, elves, magic) grafted on it. It's not something that's been conjured out of thin air. We tend to expect that basic biology will still apply -- women, not men, giving birth, etc.

Rich's story would still be an perfectly enjoyable one even if humans were born in eggs in the OotSverse, it would just be... a work of arguably slightly less quality, if there's no good reason behind that alteration.

If you want a biology debate, PM me. I'll blind you with science.

Or maybe I'll blind you with science... ;)

This is all true, and very important. One thing I would add though; many D+D worlds (even OotSverse to some extent) are loosely based on the societies of medieval Europe, and/or Tolkien's Middle-Earth. While D+D worlds are set up as gender-neutral, these fundamental resources decidedly are not. This has a significant impact on, for example, default assumptions about who has leaadership roles and positions of authority in D+Dverse societies. Certainly in my playing experience, it was lords and kings, not ladies and queens, who called the shots.

Another point, which has been mentioned above, is the gender bias in RPG players (and RPG writers). Most players and DMs are men, and therefore most PCs (and, in my experience, significant NPCs) are also male.

So according to the canon, 'D+Dverse' is a gender-blind meritocracy, and so 50% of the leaders (or wizards, or pit fighters, or master thieves, or whatever) should be men, 50% women. But the influence of the ultimate historical and literary source material, and the biases of the players/DMs/writers who create D+Dverses will naturally lead to over-representation of male characters in many cases.

Unsurprisingly, I agree with that, which is actually exactly my point. (I just went one level deeper in explaining why things are so, by invoking biology.)

I will also dare say I believe that Rich is not impervious to that phenomenon, in spite of stating the contrary in his reply to you. For example, he "chose" to split his party 4:1. (I'm giving Original V, the elven wizard with a defined gender and a name ending in -ius, the benefit of doubt, so he/she is taken out of the calculation completely.)

Would Rich be able to tell us with a straight face he could just as easily have split his party 1:4, with four female characters and only one male one?

Whether it's conscious or not, I'm observing that there still seems to be an element of wanting to mirror to an extent what people are used to see in actual D&D in the strips (especially the early ones) instead of going against the flow for absolutely no story purpose with things like a nearly all-female team of PCs, or humans who lay eggs, or anything like that.

I agree that the influences exist, yes, but then you can't use biology or "realisticness" to justify the skewed gender ratio. If you say "the skewed gender ratio exists because this takes inspiration from works where men were predominant", that makes logical sense (though it is still worth discussing, analysing, questioning and criticising). Saying "the skewed gender ratio is because biology duh" is flat-out illogical, if not outright wrong, when the setting rules specifically state otherwise.

It's actually the same thing... "the skewed gender ratio exists because this takes inspiration from works where men were predominant, which is because in real life men were actually predominant in those types of positions, which fundamentally is because biology duh".

[Raineh Daze]

And this is part of why I hate biological psychology. Nothing but endlessly reinforcing the same problems, and you can't falsify it either, because genetics is so hideously complicated...

I see absolutely no reason why a fantasy world with fairer LGBT and female representation would feel unnatural.

[zimmerwald1915]

Someone a while ago expanded the list to include race. So why not go for the trifecta of oppressive social categories? Without the benefit of extensive discussion, those designations that do not appear on oppyu's and Zmeoaice's are just my personal opinions and are subject to revision should discussion ever take place. Not that it will; people on this board really like to discuss gender and sexuality.

working definitions for the classes I used:
Aristocrats tend to possess, and derive their income from, extensive real property. They tend to rent to, and employ, others. They tend to have extensive leisure time and opportunities for higher education. They also tend to be found in and among state heirarchies.

Middle class people tend to possess, and derive their income from, rarefied professional skills or capital-intensive machinery. They may employ others. They tend to have some leisure time and opportunities for higher education.

Working class people tend to be employed by others and derive their income from their employment. They tend not to have much leisure time or opportunities for higher education.

Criminal class people tend to derive their income from taking others' possessions. Levels of organization, education, and leisure time can vary wildly.

The Order of the Stick
{table=head]Character|Status|Race|Class|Education|Occupation|Gender|Orientation|Love Interest
Roy Greenhilt|main protagonist|black|middle class|university|adventurer (leader)|male|straight|Celia
Elan|supporting protagonist|white|working class|camp|adventurer|male|straight|Samantha, Haley Starshine, Therkla
Haley Starshine|supporting protagonist|white|criminal class|guild|adventurer (second in command, leader)|female|straight*|Elan
Belkar Bitterleaf|supporting protagonist|white (halfling)|criminal class| - |adventurer|male|straight| -
Vaarsuvius|supporting protagonist|white (elf)|middle class|apprenticeship|adventurer| - | - |Inkyrius
Durkon Thundershield (dead)|supporting protagonist|white* (dwarf)|middle class|church|adventurer|male| straight|Hilgya Firehelm[/table]

Team Evil
{table=head]Character|Status|Race|Class|Education|Occupation|Gender|Orientation|Love Interest
Xykon|major antagonist|white|middle class|self-taught|adventurer (leader)|male|straight| -
Redcloak|major antagonist|goblin|middle class|apprenticeship|adventurer (second in command), general, ruler|male|straight| -
MitD|major character| - | - | - | - |male| - | -
Tsukiko (dead)|supporting antagonist|east asian|middle class|university (expelled)|adventurer (vying for second in command)|female|straight (necrophiliac)| -
Jirix|supporting antagonist|hobgoblin|middle class| - |adventurer, ruler|male| - | - [/table]

Linear Guild
{table=head]Character|Status|Race|Class|Education|Occupation|Gender|Orientation|Love Interest
Nale|major antagonist|white|middle class|apprenticeship|adventurer (leader)|male|straight*|Sabine
Sabine|major antagonist|black (succubus)|working class| - |adventurer (second in command)|female|bisexual|Nale
Thog (dead)|major antagonist| - (half-orc)|working class|guild|adventurer|male| - | -
Zz'dtri|supporting antagonist|drow (elf)|middle class| - |adventurer|male| - | -
Yukyuk (dead)|supporting antagonist|orange (kobold)| - | - |adventurer|male| - | -
Pompey|supporting antagonist|white (half-elf)|middle class|university (dropped out), apprenticeship|adventurer|male|straight| -
Leeky Windstaff|supporting antagonist|black (gnome)| - |druid circle (expelled)|adventurer|male| - | -
Yokyok (dead)|supporting antagonist|orange (kobold)| - | - |adventurer|male| - | -
Yikyik (dead)|supporting antagonist|orange (kobold)| - | - |adventurer|male| - | -
Hilgya Firehelm|supporting antagonist|white (dwarf)|middle class|church|adventurer|female|straight|Durkon Thundershield[/table]

Azure City
{table=head]Character|Status|Race|Class|Education|Occupation|Gender|Orientation|Love Interest
Shojo (dead)|major ally|east asian|aristocrat|apprenticeship|ruler (leader)|male| - | -
Hinjo|major ally|east asian|aristocrat|guild|general, ruler (leader)|male| - | -
O-Chul|major ally|east asian|working class|army|soldier|male| - | -
Lien|supporting ally|east asian|working class|guild|soldier|female|straight| -
Daigo Da-|supporting ally|east asian|aristocrat|army|soldier|male|straight|Kazumi Kato
Kazumi Kato|supporting ally|east asian|aristocrat|army|soldier|female|straight|Daig o Da-
Miko Miyazaki (dead)|major ally/antagonist|east asian|aristocrat|monastery|soldier|female|straight | -
Daimyo Kubota (dead)|supporting antagonist|east asian|aristocrat| - |noble (leader)|male| - | -
Therkla (dead)|supporting ally/antagonist|east asian (half-orc)|working class|university|assassin|female|straight|Elan[/table]

Team Tarquin
{table=head]Character|Status|Race|Class|Education|Occupation|Gender|Orientation|Love Interest
Tarquin|major antagonist|white|middle class| - |general (leader)|male|straight| -
Malack|major antagonist|albino (lizardfolk)|middle class|apprenticeship|priest|male| - | -
Empress of Blood|minor antagonist|red (dragon)|aristocrat| - |ruler (patsy)|female| - | -
Kilkil|minor antagonist|dark orange (kobold)|working class| - |accountant|male| - | - [/table]

Greysky City
{table=head]Character|Status|Race|Class|Education|Occupation|Gender|Orientation|Love Interest
Bozzok|supporting antagonist| - (half-orc)|criminal class|guild|guildmaster (leader)|male| - | -
Hank|supporting antagonist|white (halfling)|criminal class|guild|negotiator (second in command)|male| - | -
Crystal (dead)|supporting antagonist|white|criminal class|guild|assassin|female| - | - [/table]

Azure City Resistance
{table=head]Character|Status|Race|Class|Education|Occupation|Gender|Orientation|Love Interest
Ho Thanh (dead)|supporting ally|east asian|working class|guild|soldier (leader)|male| - | -
Niu|supporting ally|east asian|working class|army|soldier (second in command)|female| - | -
Eye-patched leader (dead)|minor ally|east asian| - | - | - |female| - | -
Knot-topped leader (dead)|minor ally|east asian| - | - | - |male| - | -
Team Peregrine Leader (dead)|minor ally|black (elf)|working class|army|soldier (leader)|male| - | -
Team Peregrine Lieutenant (dead)|minor ally|white (elf)|working class|army|soldier (second in command)|female| - | - [/table]

Other
{table=head]Character|Status|Race|Class|Education|Occupation|Gender|Orientation|Love Interest
Celia|supporting ally|white (sylph)|middle class|university|attorney|female|straight|Roy Greenhilt
Qarr|supporting antagonist|red (imp)|working class| - |lackey|male| - | -
The IFCC|major antagonists| - |aristocrats| - |board members|male| - | -
The Oracle|minor character|orange (kobold)|aristocrat|self-taught|seer|male| - | -
Gannji|supporting character|green (lizardfolk)|criminal class| - |bounty hunter|male| - | -
Enor|supporting character|blue (half-dragon half-ogre)|criminal class| - |bounty hunter|male| - | -
Eugene Greenhilt (dead)|supporting character|black|middle class|university|researcher|male|straight| -
Ian Starshine|supporting character|white|criminal class|guild|revolutionary|male| - | - [/table]

Order of the Scribble
{table=head]Character|Status|Race|Class|Education|Occupation|Gender|Orientation|Love Interest
Soon Kim (dead)|minor ally|east asian|aristocrat| - |adventurer, general (leader)|male|straight| -
Lirian (dead)|minor ally|white (elf)|middle class| - |adventurer (second in command)|female|straight|Dorukan
Dorukan (dead)|minor ally|white|aristocrat| - |adventurer|male|straight|Lirian
Serini| - |white (halfling)| - | - |adventurer|female| - | -
Girard Draketooth (dead)|minor antagonist|white|aristocrat| - |adventurer|male| - | -
Kraagor (dead)| - |black (dwarf)| - | - |adventurer|male| - | - [/table]

Bandits
{table=head]Character|Status|Race|Class|Education|Occupation|Gender|Orientation|Love Interest
Samantha (dead)|minor antagonist|white|criminal class|self-taught|bandit leader (leader)|female|straight|Elan
Samantha's Dad (dead)|minor antagonist|white|criminal class| - |bandit (second in command)|male| - | - [/table]

[Shadowknight12]

Not antagonistic at all. That was an excellent response and helped to clear it up. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

No problem, glad to be of service.

I am aware that it's not definitive, but the studies I know of show in general that men tend to be ~40-50% stronger than women.

However, this might be something like the 'women are bad at maths' thing - in societies with higher levels of gender equality, women tend to do better at maths than in societies with lower levels.

I am also not a huge fan of evolutionary/biological psychology as being 'set' - but I do think there are some tendencies (like the strength) are, on average at least, correct.

I am happy to continue that discussion over PM, if you want - but I think we're probably on more or less the same page? If you disagree, please do PM me, I'm always interested in learning.

Heh, everyone always brings up the physical strength thing. Don't worry, I've made that argument time and again, I'll shoot you a PM with a book and studies that suggest that the strength difference between the genders is a result of childhood rearing and societal mores.

Also - maybe it wasn't clear. I wasn't saying women shouldn't show up as much in the story as men, or that LGBT should be excluded. Just that, even if women are as strong and capable as men, that doesn't mean they have to fulfill the same roles. That could well be gender normativity seeping through in my mindset, though.

No, it doesn't mean they absolutely HAVE to, but that logically, they would. But yeah, it's probably gender normativity and gender constructs seeping through.

Yes, that is probably fair. I just like to be an idealist with my readings, and prefer to see parts of the books as symbolic which probably aren't.

D&D is hilariously/tragically sexist. I won't say it's a pity that Rich didn't choose to examine that in detail given the scale of his project already, but it is a shame his cast is as...gender biased as he is. Given how thoughtful he is in general, I am willing to give him a pass on it - but then again, I am not in one of the groups which is underrepresented, so I'm not trying to suggest everyone should feel the same way about it.

While D&D has indeed suffered from ingrained sexism, it's still a way for women to roleplay a woman in a world completely different to theirs, where the patriarchy does not exist, and their characters are viewed as exactly equal to men. That alone should be something worth cherishing.

But yeah, it has sexism issues. Lots of them.

Fair enough, I suppose - but there are people who enjoy Sci-fi/Fantasy more than those genres who do want to read stories that deal with it? Isn't it more reasonable for you to avoid the stories containing it?

Firstly, who says I don't already do that? Because I do, I assure you. There are some works I would not touch with a ten-foot pole. Secondly, no change is ever going to be made without someone going out there to try and bring education and information to people. Not to tell them what to do, but to tell them things they might not be aware of, and then letting them do with that information what they will. In a sense, I'm like a salesman. I have a sales pitch to sell you inclusion in the media, but the decision is yours.

I don't really agree with that.

Let's say an author decides that it's the men who are bearing the childs and giving birth in his fantasy world, just because. Or that humans reproduce through eggs. That'd actually be a more minor breach of the real world rules as, say, magic...

...but it would likely bug the readers more. Why? Because it goes against what feels natural.

A D&D setting is something that's inspired from the real-life medieval period, with the fantasy bits (dragons, elves, magic) grafted on it. It's not something that's been conjured out of thin air. We tend to expect that basic biology will still apply -- women, not men, giving birth, etc.

Rich's story would still be an perfectly enjoyable one even if humans were born in eggs in the OotSverse, it would just be... a work of arguably slightly less quality, if there's no good reason behind that alteration.

Yeah, you can try to justify it using vague terminology, such as "feels natural", but that's just heteronormativity and gender constructs. The whole "natural" thing does not exist in the fantasy genre. And it's absent of a big part of the sci-fi genre.

You lose the right to talk about what feels natural or not in a fantasy work when you have enormous, unfathomably heavy, intelligent lizards flying around on a wing and a prayer.

Or, you know. Anything magic does, ever.

Or maybe I'll blind you with science... ;)

By all means, feel free! I'm always up for some science in my retinae.

It's actually the same thing... "the skewed gender ratio exists because this takes inspiration from works where men were predominant, which is because in real life men were actually predominant in those types of positions, which fundamentally is because biology duh".

There is a term for that. It's called cultural inertia. It's the concept that because something cultural has been done before, it must be maintained for no other reason than because it has been done before. It is absolutely arbitrary, and therefore perfectly changeable.

*snip*

*applause*

What an excellent job. The idea of including social class was actually a stroke of genius. Classism is VERY ingrained in fantasy settings (as cultural inertia from the idea that only nobles or people with the blood of nobles/kings/gods were able to perform great deeds).