Warhammer 40K Tactics

[Oracle_Hunter]

Well, I haven't looked at 5E, but I do have some Eldar questions:

(1) Howling Banshees. Why?

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They cost exactly as much as Striking Scorpions, but are worse in every way. Striking Scorpions have STR 4 and tons of attacks, meaning that they will eventually beat through any armor save. If bad comes to worse, an Exarch with a Scorpion's Claw can handle around 3 units a turn with his 3+ powerfist attacks

Meanwhile, Howling Banshees have power weapons, but STR 3 - they need 5+ to wound Marines (their primary target), and only have a 4+ armor save to keep them alive from the counter-attack. They don't get as many attacks as Scorpions, and at best their Exarch can atttack at STR 5 for, at best, 3 attacks.

(2) Dire Avengers. Why?

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They cost 4 points more per model than Guardians, and just aren't worth it. Guardians can carry around a support platform which can mount a useful weapon (helpful for range, and great if your Farseer isn't busy). If someone gets within 12", they'll at least get a chance to hurt them (20 STR 4 shots are good for something!).

Dire Avengers, on the other hand, don't have decent ranged weapons (18" my butt!) so they can't do a shooting advance. Only their Exarch is even close to being equipped for close combat, and with saves of 4+ and S/T of 3, they really shouldn't be charging anyone. Which means they're good for defense... but they can only start shooting when the enemies get within 18", and if they're lucky, that means they can shoot for 2 rounds before getting swarmed in close combat.

Heck, at minimum unit costs, Dire Avengers are 60 points and Guardians are 80, and the Guardians have twice as many bodies on the field!

(3) Jet Bikes. I'm doing it wrong?

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So, they're very fast, and reasonably protected from close combat, but are they really worth 22 points? Having to get within 12" of your enemy to open fire with twin-linked shuriken catapults just seems like a bad idea. Sure, they would be good for flanking, but are there really that many times when those 66 points spent on flanking wouldn't be better spent on getting a few more Scorpions or even putting some more heavy weapons in your Guardian squads? I just can't find a use for them, even against IG

If I'm wrong on any point generally, I'd love to hear it. Even better, if 5E made these poor units useful, I'd love to hear about it

[hamishspence]

Banshees work well against Sisters and maybe stormtroopers, depending on how much you value the armour piercing.

Scorpions Claw can't benefit from CCW to get an extra attack anymore- you need two fists if you want one bonus Fist attack.

Bikes- Eldar Jetbikes, so, can fall back in assault phase.

Avengers- yes, pretty underpowered. Maybe an ok counter-charge unit- general support.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Banshees work well against Sisters and maybe stormtroopers, depending on how much you value the armour piercing.

Scorpions Claw can't benefit from CCW to get an extra attack anymore- you need two fists if you want one bonus Fist attack.

Bikes- Eldar Jetbikes, so, can fall back in assault phase.

Avengers- yes, pretty underpowered. Maybe an ok counter-charge unit- general support.

Meh, Banshees still suck then. I miss 2E when they were ridiculously powerful

And boo to de-powering Scorpions! Well, I guess that means nobody is taking Scorpion Claws then? Or does the Exarch still get one Power Fist attack? And what happens to his initiative?

Jetbikes can fall back in the assault phase, but IIRC, only 6". That's not usually going to get them out of line of sight for return fire.

[hamishspence]

Exarch gets bonus attack from mandiblaster (expressed as +1 A means it benefits from whatever Str you are using- S6 in this case.) And you get bonus from charging, and your base 2 attacks. So, 3 attacks, 4 on charge. You just don't get CCW benefit as well.

[Erloas]

I don't know the codex that well yet, but Banshees have fleet of foot while scorpions do not. They always strike first in combat (unless you end up against something Int 10 too) and they can ignore the fact that the enemies they are attacking are in cover or if they have gernades. Of course scorpions have the option to be able to infiltrate. They also have the counter-assault ability so they can count as charging even if they get charged.
I plan on using both, I'll see how their advantages really work out in-game.

If you always have a transport to use then fleet is less of an issue, and if you don't have a lot of cover/obsticles for your opponents to hide behind or they don't ever have gernades then the mask isn't of a whole lot of use. And if you aren't going against an assualty opponent then countercharge isn't going to be used much either.



Main thing with dire avengers is that at least at 18" you can shoot at something before it can assault you. At 12" range then you don't get any shots at all until you put yourself within assault range. Dire avengers also have BS4 instead of BS3 (don't see stats as being a copyright issue since GW has them posted on their site for all to see anyway), they have LD9 instead of 8, Int 5 instead of 4, and a save of 4+ instead of 5+. So they will be hitting from farther away and they will be hitting more often. Also with bladestorm you can increase your attacks for a round.

Sure they don't have the tank killing possibilities of guardian weapon platforms, but against a group of 'nids or Orks I would much rather have the increased range and BS of the dire avengers.



As for bikes, the main use is of course speed. With the bike they have the T and save of a space marine, they are relatively durable. The main point I think is usually to upgrade a few to the shuriken cannons, because they have the str to be dangerous to anything. They can fairly reliably take out any armor 10 tanks with the cannon, and they have the speed to get behind almost any army, and even a 14 armor tank has a lot to worry about from a shuriken cannon when it is being shot in the back.

The way I see them being used isn't so much as a powerhouse on their own, but as a tool to help shape the battlefield. They might not take out a huge amount on their own but they are dangerous enough that they can't be ignored and fast enough that they can be used to force your opponents actions to some extent. If you toss a warlock on a bike with a singing spear with them then they have the power to take out any tank and the rest of the bikes are there for protection.

[Oracle_Hunter]

@Erloas

Banshees

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Good luck with the Banshees. In my experience, Fleet of Foot just meant they could get boltered to death sooner

Dire Avengers

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My main concern with Dire Avengers is their point value. Do I really want to spend 12 points a model on suicide troopers, when I could instead spend those extra points on a Scatter Laser or Star Cannon for a squad of Guardians?

The way I see it, you shouldn't bother fielding a 5-man Dire Avenger squad. One man down and they'll start taking Leadership Checks, and that's never good. So let's say a 10 man squad for 120 points. Well, you're going to want to have Bladestorm, which means an Exarch, so that's another 27 points, bringing us to 147 points. I'm not going to bother kitting out the Exarch for close combat - it's just not worth it. This squad can take care of everything within 18" with a hail of 18 BS4 shots and 2 BS5; pumping it up for 30 shots total if anyone gets within 12" who might charge.

For 147 points I could get a 10 man Guardian Squad with an EML (if the Farseer is near) or a Scatter Laser, and throw in a Warlock with Conceal to protect the poor bastards from bolter fire. That comes out to 135-140 points, and it gives me a squad that's roughly as durable (5+ Invulnerable vs. 4+ normal), but it can fire at range (36") with power (S6) and volume (Heavy 4). Sure, with only a BS 3 the Guardians may only get 2, S6 shots off a turn, but thanks to their range & mobility, they can probably get a round of shooting every turn.

Would you really take a squad of Dire Avengers over this? I suppose if you need a cheap troop choice, a 5 man squad of Dire Avengers will do it for you (60 points), but that's even less effective than a base set of Guardians who cost only a little bit more.

What say you?

Jetbikes

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Hmm... a valid point. A 3 man Guardian Jetbike squad with a Cannon comes to 76 points and if you can keep them in cover, that gives you a 3 S6 against AV 11 (maybe 10, if you're lucky). You still need a 5+ to do anything, but against a concentrated army, you might be able to do some real damage. It's a troop choice, cheaper than a Guardian Squad with a Scatter Laser, and probably about as effective.

Plus, a 3 man squad with a Warlock would do best to just charge the rear armor. Witchblades are nasty against vehicles - I wouldn't bother with the Singing Spear though. Still, that's 111 points, almost as expensive as a 5 man Swooping Hawk squad which might do better with their wings and haywire grenades.

Well, definitely a choice for a large table.

[Tren]

I already touched on the banshee vs. scorpion thing in the other thread, but it all comes down to who you're fighting. If you mathhammer it out scorps are only a little less effective against MEQs, but they won't do it as fast. What mathammer doesn't take into account with Banshees is how much more they benefit from doom than scorps (at least vs MEQs). A charging banshee squad with rerollable wounds is likely to shred an MEQ squad so thoroughly in as to either wipe them out in one phase, or render the counter attack impotent. Banshees can roll through flanks much quicker than scorpions can. They also have the benefit of ignoring FNP and WBB.

For an all-comers list, or definitely versus horde armies the scorpions are the way to go, but the ladies when used right excel at taking out marines.

As for DA's, I have to respectfully disagree. I think they're probably our most versatile and potent troop choice. They're a pretty fierce amount of mobile foot-based dakka, and a well-timed bladestorm can decide a game. They are more likely to be killed than a guardian squad sitting back taking pot shots with the assault platform, but they'll also rack up a lot more kills.

As for jetbikes, they're okay for light vehicle hunting, last minute turbo-boost objective capping/contesting, and maybe some JSJ harrasment. But I generally don't bother fielding them anymore, they're MEQ but as any marine player will tell you that 3+ save doesn't make you invulnerable.

[Oracle_Hunter]

As for DA's, I have to respectfully disagree. I think they're probably our most versatile and potent troop choice. They're a pretty fierce amount of mobile foot-based dakka, and a well-timed bladestorm can decide a game. They are more likely to be killed than a guardian squad sitting back taking pot shots with the assault platform, but they'll also rack up a lot more kills.

OK, first I'll need a translation of: JSJ, FNP, WBB

But here, I have to ask: how do you deal with bolter fire?

You're getting hit with S4 shots from 6" further away than you can hit them. Even with cover saves, their ability to rapid fire while you move into range has to overcome your eventual response.

So, generally: how do you use Dire Avengers effectively?

[hamishspence]

Feel No Pain, We'll Be Back. Not sure about third.

[Erloas]

Well rapid fire is only 12", so while they do get 1 shot at 24" when you are out of range, between 18" and 12" the dire avengers have superior fire power.
In comparision to guardinas being only 12" range you can't shot at all without being within the rapid fire range.

[hamishspence]

i'm guessing while a Wave Serpent might protect them from shooting till they can get into melee, its another big price increase- maybe not worth it?

as in- 24" move, next turn, they hop out, shoot, charge.

[Tren]

You're gonna take fire and casualties no matter what, it's really just a question of where/how you advance your guys to minimize that. If you're advancing against a squad of marines who are also moving up, they've only got a 12'' range (maybe 24'' for some storm bolters), versus your 18'' assault. You can even scoot backwards and keep shooting while they advance up and stay out of range. On a 4x6 or 4x8 table I've never had to advance more than a round without having something to shoot at, and I've never really had a problem with unmanageable casualties.

The other thing is priority, usually I put enough other more urgent targets on the board for my avengers to not be a big target. I'm generally fielding some combination of an avatar, wraithlord, or reaper squad which draws a lot of fire.
It may just be a difference in play style, but you certainly shouldn't discount the avengers. I can tell you they're very effective for me and a lot of eldar players.

As for JSJ, it's Jump-Shoot-Jump; using your 12 inch move, shooting, and using your 6 inch jetpack/eldar jetbike move to scoot back behind cover or out of range.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Hmm... I guess I've gotten out of practice, with all the Tau I've been fighting as of late. It'd be dicey, to be sure, and the Dire Avengers couldn't advance on a fortified position, but they'd make decent skirmishers, I suppose. Well, food for thought.

And you actually use an Avatar? Mine always just end up as expensive shooting-magnets instead of actually smashing anyone in the face. It's probably the Tau again, but how to you use him?

[YPU]

From what I hear tournaments have become increasingly objective capturing focused. This makes jet bikes a great option as you can engage the opponent in a standoff and claim the remaining objectives in the last turn or two, torbo boosting helps.

Hamerhead with railgun shooting magnet as well. When I started 40K tau were relatively new, so the talks of this awesome railgun were still fresh. At games that often led to the enemy trying to fling everything at the hammerhead. Of course this would sometimes end with them being flanked between my 40+ kroots.

Another question on the battle for MaCragge nids, how much points would that be approximately? And if I would have that twice what would be the best options to add get a small but rounded force? I believe it lacks a HQ?

[Selrahc]

Theoretical exercise: If you could make a 1500pts army with troops from any codex being allowed, what list would you make? Like what crazy combos would you get out of being allowed tau units in a tyranid army to shore up the tank killing ranged power, or demons in a space marine army or whatever.

Anyone think of anything fun that would come up from such a list?

[onasuma]

marines with... more marines. But these marines are sickly and plaguey. Yeah, plague marines in drop pods.

[Eldan]

Hmm. Chaos Marines in a Falcon?

Also, no matter what else, a monolith, because I love the heavy stuff.

[Kane]

I saw this idea somewhere else, but like it enough that I'd do it.

One unit from each codex, just for the challenge of explaining it all away.

Opponent: *looks at hive tyrant next to monolith* "The tyranids?"

Me: "Necron mind control device."

Opponent: "And Abbadon?"

Me: "Uh....."

[Eldan]

"Very good mind control device. Same for that Hammerhead and the Falcon."

[Oracle_Hunter]

Nah, it'd be easy.

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Player A: "Well, the Tau got contacted by the Lugganath Craftworld and convinced them to join the Greater Good. So, the Eldar gave them webway technology and soon the Tau were everywhere. They picked up Orks, Imperial Guard, a lost Space Marine chapter, some Sisters... heck, they even convinced some Noise Marines!"

Noise Marines: "The Greater Good ROCKS!"

Player B: "Okay, but what about the Inquisitors? The Grey Knights?"

Player A: "They're double agents."

Player B: "Tyranids?"

Player A: "Specially modified control pheromones. Very effective."

Player B: "Okay, I'll buy that. But Necrons? They just want to kill all life!"

Player A: "Listen, the way the Tau's Grand Alliance is going, pretty much everyone is going to be dead or allied in not too long. The Necrons want to be well-placed to wipe out the victors, so they're pretending to be allied too. It's all a plan by the Deceiver."

Player B: ". . ."

[Eldan]

And see that Inquisitor there? He's actually just waiting for his chance to strike. That's also why the sisters of battle are there.

[tribble]

and "Abbadon the Despoiler" is actually a clone of Horus that the real Abbadon missed.

[Eldan]

"See, you know how there have been thirteen black crusades and why the Chaos gods always let Abaddon try again? It was actually thirteen different abaddons, each one a clone. But the newest clone, number 14, defected to the Tau, instead of being used for the next black crusade."

[hamishspence]

Push it up to 3000 instead of 1500 and you can actually mostly do that- Apocalypse.

the sample suggestion was 3 carnifexes jumping out of a Skullhamma battlefortress.

[onasuma]

Oh, heres one: Penitent engine in a drop pod.

Speaking of srop pods, can you assualt straight out of them? After all, it is open topped.

[Bryn]

The 5th ed rulebook seems to imply that a unit inside a drop pod still counts as deep striking, so the only move they can make is to disembark the transport vehicle and they cannot assault. Of course, if the Penitent Engine stayed inside the drop pod for a turn after it landed, it could presumably charge the enemy just fine

Genestealers in a Valkyrie.

[hamishspence]

drop pod- dedicated transport- when deployed it must carry unit it was selected for.

though that might not apply in apocalypse, a late 4th ed book.

Space Marine codex- unit that deep strikes in drop pod may not assault on turn it arrives.

[onasuma]

Then, another question. Vanguard in a drop pod calls heroic intervention. Can they assualt even though the drop pod deep striked, not them?

[hamishspence]

Nope- rules state clearly that only jump-pack equipped Vanguards get it, and you can't put jump-pack equipped Vanguard in a drop pod.

[onasuma]

Ok, this may seem a little farfetched, but im now moving on to some more serious armour for my space dwarves, having already decided on my infantry, my eliets and my hq choices.
So, im thinking of a landraider crusader for my termies to travel in. However, I wont be placing hurricane bolters on it. No, instead I have a better idea. I shall be mounting the most awesome turret ever: this

That will make the most expensive conversion ive ever done, but hopefully it will be awesome enough to balance it out.

Edit: Or actually, i might mount the hurricane bolters and make the turret count as the assualt cannon. Thorghts?


Edit, again:

Another question on the battle for MaCragge nids, how much points would that be approximately? And if I would have that twice what would be the best options to add get a small but rounded force? I believe it lacks a HQ?

Youd have about 250 points. Aditions i would make would be: first off, more gaunts with fleshborers. You want to bulk out your numbers more. A hive tyrant. You always need a hive tyrant and possibly a broodlord to go with the stealers. Zyntropes would aid your ranged powers which the army is lacking, as would biovores. I think it would probably end up roughly like this at 1000 points

Hive tyrant: 1 gun + scything talons.
2 tyrant guard (with or without lashwhips. If your going after independant characters the whips are a good idea, if not, dont bother)
16 gaunts
16 more gaunts
16 more gaunts
12 stealers + broodlord
carn or 2 zyntropes
carn or flying warriors
standard warriors

You could just about fit that into 1000 points if your lucky. Btw, if you ever find yourself with 150 points spare: 3 winged warriors with 2 devourers each and toxin sacs. 24 S4 reroll to hit, reroll to wound shots a turn.