DoTA 2 One: Not to be confused with DoTA 1 Two

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

If your mid isn't bottle-crowing, you can get away with a DK off, I suppose. Though the times when it'd be viable are pretty small. They'd have to be running either an aggro trilane or a dual lane+jungle with pretty poor kill potential. And you'd want to be Radiant, because that's a much more forgiving safelane at low levels.

[Dumbledore lives]

Honestly in pubs you can get away with a lot of stuff. I've been doing offlane jakiro occasionally when they have a jungler and it works out pretty well. Basically you get level 7 then start pushing down towers, and you hurt their safelane farmer pretty decently with liquid fire. That and as Jakiro you only need levels, not really farm.

[Anteros]

Honestly in pubs you can get away with a lot of stuff. I've been doing offlane jakiro occasionally when they have a jungler and it works out pretty well. Basically you get level 7 then start pushing down towers, and you hurt their safelane farmer pretty decently with liquid fire. That and as Jakiro you only need levels, not really farm.

But...why don't they just kill you every time you come in xp range?

[Mando Knight]

XP range is pretty big, and many pub players are terrible at setting the creep equilibrium to punish bad offlane heroes. A ranged hero who doesn't need a lot of gold makes a decent offlaner in this case (though a melee hero that does need gold and lacks some way to escape doesn't).

[Anteros]

If the lane pushes, you dive under his tower and kill him while the tower is hitting creeps. Tower aggro is easy enough to manage. Jakiro is a hero that can do a lot with a level advantage...but if I was laning as a support in a tri or even a dual against a solo Jakiro, it would be my sole mission to make sure he never gets level 2 from lane xp.

Don't get me wrong, off-lane is my favorite spot to play. You can get away with quite a lot in pubs, but something like a Jakiro has no escape, no durability, and no real potential to kill the enemy if they dive you. No one is going to be carrying TPs to respond to a dive on their offlaner at level 1. You're almost entirely reliant on the enemy team being passive to survive. Granted, these situations do happen, I've certainly survived in lanes where I wondered why they didn't just dive and kill me over and over. If you're making it work, and having fun go for it...but I personally wouldn't pick a hero for a role with that requires the enemy team to play completely passive for me to succeed.

[Dumbledore lives]

If the lane pushes, you dive under his tower and kill him while the tower is hitting creeps. Tower aggro is easy enough to manage. Jakiro is a hero that can do a lot with a level advantage...but if I was laning as a support in a tri or even a dual against a solo Jakiro, it would be my sole mission to make sure he never gets level 2 from lane xp.

Don't get me wrong, off-lane is my favorite spot to play. You can get away with quite a lot in pubs, but something like a Jakiro has no escape, no durability, and no real potential to kill the enemy if they dive you. No one is going to be carrying TPs to respond to a dive on their offlaner at level 1. You're almost entirely reliant on the enemy team being passive to survive. Granted, these situations do happen, I've certainly survived in lanes where I wondered why they didn't just dive and kill me over and over. If you're making it work, and having fun go for it...but I personally wouldn't pick a hero for a role with that requires the enemy team to play completely passive for me to succeed.

It's real bad in a lot of situations, but like I said it's pubs, and not that high mmr. Like if it's something like a Lich and Spectre or something you just sit just in xp range and everything is good. Ice path also kind of discourages diving. Works better on the radiant offlane of course because you basically get a free level no matter who you are the creeps meet so close to the tower, and the enemy is level one so they basically can't kill you.

[amalager]

DOTA2 DOTA2 DOTA2! This thread is very usually. In the first place. I thank you for this information. Though, Im noob here at dota2. I only have 2.6k MMR. Because initially, Im a MMORPG player. Hahaha. I play Rohan Blood Feud. Just sharing .HAHAHA.

[HalfTangible]

So i just had my first good game as techies. Got first blood and helped ensure we got the bottom lane (PL did most of the work, admittedly, but he's PL) But good lord, Bounty was calling me retarded (his word, not mine) and stupid and horrible pretty much from the moment i picked techies because 'they'll get an early gem waaah waaah i'm so pro because i got like 4 kills with bounty waaah stop denying yourself with your suicide squad waaaah'

I think i stayed pretty calm, given the circumstances. Called him a troll, mostly ignored him, occasionally turned his comments into stupid jokes.

"DUDE PLANT MORE MINES!"
"I am, but people keep walking over them. So rude."

We won, and the rest of the team was also pissed at bounty, so i presume i did well.

[Dumbledore lives]

It's real bad in a lot of situations, but like I said it's pubs, and not that high mmr. Like if it's something like a Lich and Spectre or something you just sit just in xp range and everything is good. Ice path also kind of discourages diving. Works better on the radiant offlane of course because you basically get a free level no matter who you are the creeps meet so close to the tower, and the enemy is level one so they basically can't kill you.

Apparently at least one team thinks it can work. Radiant offlane Jakiro from EG against C9. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIEmYry6VwY

So i just had my first good game as techies. Got first blood and helped ensure we got the bottom lane (PL did most of the work, admittedly, but he's PL) But good lord, Bounty was calling me retarded (his word, not mine) and stupid and horrible pretty much from the moment i picked techies because 'they'll get an early gem waaah waaah i'm so pro because i got like 4 kills with bounty waaah stop denying yourself with your suicide squad waaaah'

I think i stayed pretty calm, given the circumstances. Called him a troll, mostly ignored him, occasionally turned his comments into stupid jokes.

"DUDE PLANT MORE MINES!"
"I am, but people keep walking over them. So rude."

We won, and the rest of the team was also pissed at bounty, so i presume i did well.

Yeah, people can be really toxic about playing techies. Easiest thing is just to mute someone like that, they rarely have anything of value to say. I really enjoy techies, but play it rarely because of the flames, though I'm sure they'll die down in not too long. After all their popularity dropped to like half after a day.

[Anteros]

I have to say that while I won't flame someone for picking him, I am REALLY tired of having a Techies in every single all pick game. Especially since 90% of the time they are terrible, disappear into the jungle for 30 minutes and never contribute. I've actually abandoned all pick soley because of this hero.

Techies is like Anti Mage or Spectre. They're usually terrible, and even when they're good they force your team to play a very specific style of Dota in order for them to contribute.

That's not to say you shouldn't continue to pick him if you're having fun, I just wanted to rant a bit.

[Trixie]

Guess what

No Diretide though?

[HalfTangible]

Guess what

No Diretide though?

I like PL's rework and SF's new design. Bloodseeker's new ability is a little iffy, given that Bloodbath was kind of his whole shtick. Brood gets to spin her web more often, which is good since that's her entire shtick.

Riki... people are gonna have a field day with that one.

[Lighturtle]

I'm not a fan of how thoroughly they wrecked early game strategies. Push and take towers? Enjoy your **** gold reward, their free glyphs, and their cheap TPs so they can defend at all times. Draft strong early game heroes? Woops, your lead is gone with the insane rubber-banding bonus! Etc.

[Trixie]

I'm not a fan of how thoroughly they wrecked early game strategies. Push and take towers? Enjoy your **** gold reward, their free glyphs, and their cheap TPs so they can defend at all times. Draft strong early game heroes? Woops, your lead is gone with the insane rubber-banding bonus! Etc.

Well, just look how many people complained at TI deathball strategies and whined it was worst grand final ever...

If Valve wants to make the game more appealing as mass entertainment, forcing together clashes of 5 vs 5 and buffing supports was pretty much inevitable. Encouraging comebacks helps, too, if you're ahead you should press your advantage.

What is interesting is a lot of people gained fifth skill either base one or granted by scepter. End of QWER era, start of QWERT? I also like killing of a lot of grandfathered in loopholes and exceptions. Making game more accessible is always good.

Though, will miss my Lina AS ult pretty four digit damage numbers

Also, CM, Lina, TA and Luna still kind of weak...

[Dumbledore lives]

So 6.82 just dropped in the middle of a best of three for Starladder, and in the middle of a 100K+ Chinese tournament. And everything is changing and Bloodseeker is a offlaner who can't offlane and PL no longer split pushes and everything.

[HalfTangible]

So 6.82 just dropped in the middle of a best of three for Starladder, and in the middle of a 100K+ Chinese tournament. And everything is changing and Bloodseeker is a offlaner who can't offlane and PL no longer split pushes and everything.

Why can't PL split push anymore? He still does the image thing

[Dumbledore lives]

Why can't PL split push anymore? He still does the image thing

His illusions only last 8 seconds now, or 4 if it's illusions making them. So he can still split push, but his hero has to be there with them to get any real momentum. This is opposed to the no risk push from before.

[HalfTangible]

His illusions only last 8 seconds now, or 4 if it's illusions making them. So he can still split push, but his hero has to be there with them to get any real momentum. This is opposed to the no risk push from before.

Fair enough, but his illusions also get that new charge thing of his, so they push faster. And I always needed PL there to get serious momentum in my pushes anyway.

[Andre]

Well, considering that 4/5 of the CM games between competent people ended up with either team taking all outer towers by the 15 mins mark tops and threatening high ground <20 mins in with an Aegis in tow I'd say the deathball nerfs were well overdue

[Anteros]

The new bounty gold is completely game ruining. It's possible to get 5k gold in a single team fight now on multiple heroes. 20,000 gold swings from 1 team fight are ridiculous.

[Trixie]

Wasn't it just nerfed in minipatch this morning?

Also, to get 20.000 gold you'd need, what, beyond goldlike streak on enemy player and him having not only big part of his team worth, your team worth total would need to be some 10.000 behind?

I even tried to calculate it but got some absurdly big net worth difference and gave up

[Mando Knight]

Fair enough, but his illusions also get that new charge thing of his, so they push faster. And I always needed PL there to get serious momentum in my pushes anyway.

With the short duration of the Juxtapose illusions and the lower illusion propagation rate, it's impossible for the new PL to split push by himself: the new illusions don't last long enough to self propagate without the main PL there (to keep a group of 8-second illusions), and they can't even move between waves (or lanes) unless there's something else for them to attack to keep themselves up. The charge is also fairly short (shorter than Blink Dagger), so you can mostly use it to start a fight or move between enemies within a fight, not move between creep waves.

[Bucky]

Wasn't it just nerfed in minipatch this morning?

Also, to get 20.000 gold you'd need, what, beyond goldlike streak on enemy player and him having not only big part of his team worth, your team worth total would need to be some 10.000 behind?

I even tried to calculate it but got some absurdly big net worth difference and gave up

20,000 gold swings from one kill is absurd except in extreme late game situations where the carry in question has been farming for literally an hour after getting 6-slotted. Realistic conditions top out at about a 6k bonus on top of the normal kill and streak gold. A 20,000 gold swing from one teamfight, however, is quite possible with buybacks (counting the buyback cost) and happens even without buybacks for leads of over 35k gold.

Also, they nerfed the comeback gold bonus but didn't touch the also-huge comeback experience bonus.

[Anteros]

20,000 gold swings from one kill is absurd except in extreme late game situations where the carry in question has been farming for literally an hour after getting 6-slotted. Realistic conditions top out at about a 6k bonus on top of the normal kill and streak gold. A 20,000 gold swing from one teamfight, however, is quite possible with buybacks (counting the buyback cost) and happens even without buybacks for leads of over 35k gold.

Also, they nerfed the comeback gold bonus but didn't touch the also-huge comeback experience bonus.

I haven't done any math on the subject, but I do know that I got 5,000+ gold from one team fight in a game where we managed to kill 3 heroes with no one dying. Assuming everyone around me got the same amount, that's a 25,000 gold swing for 3 kills. I'm all for comeback mechanics but it was way too much before. I'm glad they nerfed it.

With the short duration of the Juxtapose illusions and the lower illusion propagation rate, it's impossible for the new PL to split push by himself: the new illusions don't last long enough to self propagate without the main PL there (to keep a group of 8-second illusions), and they can't even move between waves (or lanes) unless there's something else for them to attack to keep themselves up. The charge is also fairly short (shorter than Blink Dagger), so you can mostly use it to start a fight or move between enemies within a fight, not move between creep waves.

He can now farm as fast as an anti mage with battlefury starting from lvl 6, even if he has nothing but boots. He's also much, much stronger in team fights and early game ganks now. He can't split push well at all, but he was more than compensated. I actually think he might be too strong and will get nerfed.

[Bucky]

I haven't done any math on the subject, but I do know that I got 5,000+ gold from one team fight in a game where we managed to kill 3 heroes with no one dying. Assuming everyone around me got the same amount, that's a 25,000 gold swing for 3 kills.

That's an unsafe assumption because of kill gold, which can include streaks. But you don't need to do all the math; you can check the replay instead.

I suspect you picked up a streak bonus and some of the kills didn't have all five of you in assist range.

[Trixie]

I haven't done any math on the subject, but I do know that I got 5,000+ gold from one team fight in a game where we managed to kill 3 heroes with no one dying. Assuming everyone around me got the same amount, that's a 25,000 gold swing for 3 kills. I'm all for comeback mechanics but it was way too much before. I'm glad they nerfed it.

I think the killer is the only one who gets bonuses for stuff like ending streaks, sure gold for kill, and whatnot. I also think comeback bonus will never exceed team worth difference, at least judging by the equation, so at worst it will be forced parity.

Also, there's the context. Gold bonus for taking towers had been lessened. If your team was behind, after won fight you could have claimed a tower or two and get bonus gold. Now that bonus was moved to team fights, and with nerf, it might turn out comebacks are less possible than in last patch.

Hmm. On one hand, I don't like lengthening the game, on the other, I like that the focus was moved from camping that poor underfarmed support kills to try and snipe carry. This also opens up a few interesting strategies where underfarmed hero or two that gave all their farm to team is no longer as big liability as before. Hmm. We'll need to wait and see.

[Bucky]

Picking off supports is still good comeback XP.

[Anteros]

That's an unsafe assumption because of kill gold, which can include streaks. But you don't need to do all the math; you can check the replay instead.

I suspect you picked up a streak bonus and some of the kills didn't have all five of you in assist range.

I got none of the kills, I was playing Treant. It was just a broken system, and that's why they nerfed it twice already. Honestly it's probably still too strong. They need to nerf the exp gain too.

Right now there's no reason to play good early game heroes because if you die one time you're going to give away the entire advantage you managed to learn. Combine that with a hero that already falls off as the game progresses and it's a recipe for throwing the game every time.

[Trixie]

So, apparently 6.82b has further XP reductions:

http://store.steampowered.com/news/14529/

EDIT: Science!

[Anteros]

All random deathmatch is easily the best mode. Tonight I got to play as blink dagger, shadowblade Riki. I'm clearly starting a new meta.