The "Tales of" Series

[Airk]

Ah alright, it said to hold X after using an Arcane Art (and those are pretty much all I use anyway), so I tried and nothing happened when I held X, but I haven't tried guardian field yet, thanks.

Uh, if those are the only ones you're using, you're crippling yourself; The Artes chaining system in Abyss is basically all about alternating between base and arcane artes. Even with no AD skills at all, you can still do: Attacks > Base Arte > Arcane Arte, and IIRC, there are AD skills that let you do more.

Also, if you're playing a "caster" (at least, IIRC, Jade & Tear, not sure about Natalia and Anise) you need to actually use a 'High' Fonic Arte, rather than an Arcane Strike Arte to trigger your Mystic Arte.

Oh, and the arte needs to make contact with an enemy, I believe. If you whiff, no MA for you. Oh, and also, remember that X is NOT the Arte button. It's the normal attack button. Sometimes people make that mistake because they think they "just need to hold the button."

[Shekinah]

If you're Tear, any of the fonic hymns will trigger the Mystic Arte--even Nightmare and Force Field.

[Demolator]

I use Luke, and it feels like NOTHING triggers it.

Uh, if those are the only ones you're using, you're crippling yourself; The Artes chaining system in Abyss is basically all about alternating between base and arcane artes. Even with no AD skills at all, you can still do: Attacks > Base Arte > Arcane Arte, and IIRC, there are AD skills that let you do more.

I had no idea this could happen, thanks! It just got me through a boss battle with half the God-Generals.

[Sylthia]

Spoilery question about Dr. Mathis from the side-quest at the end of the game.

Spoiler

Show

If Jude's dad is from Elympios, how does he practice medicine if he has no mana-lobe? Does he use an aspyrixis to do it? Has anyone noticed that he doesn't have a mana-lobe? That side-quest raised more questions than it answered. Maybe I just missed something.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Spoilery question about Dr. Mathis from the side-quest at the end of the game.

Spoiler

Show

If Jude's dad is from Elympios, how does he practice medicine if he has no mana-lobe? Does he use an aspyrixis to do it? Has anyone noticed that he doesn't have a mana-lobe? That side-quest raised more questions than it answered. Maybe I just missed something.

It isn't explained anywhere in the game (near as I can find) so we are left with speculations

Spoiler

Show

1) He's one of those rare lucky Elympians who actually can. Its mentioned in the Helioborg event you can get after being able to freely travel that Balan has figured out Elympians have mana lobes they're just very very underdeveloped after 2000 years of disuse and Maxwell taking those that could to Rieze Maxia.

2) He's found other methods using tools that aren't Spyrix powered. Like Alvin's gun. A skit reports that Alvin lied (no, really) about it channeling fire spirits but doesn't explain how it actually does work. We do see him using some odd devices when treating Millia.

3) He's got some slight of hand trickery going on probably through his wife, since presumably she can.

4) Something to do with the difference between martial and spell arts that got lost between "in-world" and "in-game" mechanics. Again like how Alvin uses all his powers and a Lilium Orb. (Note how Jude has no spells!)

[Zevox]

Whew, alright, so I'm at what I'm pretty sure is the final dungeon at last. The past couple of days I've used a guide to mop up the side-quests I had started, finally collecting the last of the Devil Arms today (for New Game+ transfer, mainly). I was going to do the arena as well, but ring-outs are ticking me off, and the fights take much too long for my liking.

So, with any luck I'll finish the game tonight or tomorrow.

[Demolator]

Turns out the problem with the Mystic Artes was I kept forgetting to put on Over Limit, heh...

Spoiler

Show

Is the party just gonna' forgive Anise for kidnapping and indirectly causing the death of Ion? At least Zelos made up for it when he turned traitor. I know it's pretty impossible, but I kind of want Arietta to win the duel. I bet she'd make a suitable replacement for the party.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Whew, alright, so I'm at what I'm pretty sure is the final dungeon at last. The past couple of days I've used a guide to mop up the side-quests I had started, finally collecting the last of the Devil Arms today (for New Game+ transfer, mainly). I was going to do the arena as well, but ring-outs are ticking me off, and the fights take much too long for my liking.

So, with any luck I'll finish the game tonight or tomorrow.

Yeah that arena Advanced Single really requires some non-standard play. If you don't make a point to free run back to the center from time to time you will get ringed-out.

I swear I did that like a hundred times with Jude on my first play through. Ended up only pushing Milla and Jude through, which was a shame because Alvin turned out to be a beast at it in my New Game+ though I was like ten levels higher that time. Variable Trigger is seriously the best arte for the arena.

[Zevox]

Yeah that arena Advanced Single really requires some non-standard play. If you don't make a point to free run back to the center from time to time you will get ringed-out.

Yeah, it's especially bad with Milla being as mobile in the air as she is. I actually air-dashed off the stage more than once during my earliest attempts.

I swear I did that like a hundred times with Jude on my first play through. Ended up only pushing Milla and Jude through, which was a shame because Alvin turned out to be a beast at it in my New Game+ though I was like ten levels higher that time. Variable Trigger is seriously the best arte for the arena.

Speaking of which, while I don't think I'll jump into New Game+ immediately, I am planning to do so, and would like to use someone other than Milla and Jude as my main character during it (since I've spent most of this play-through with Milla and used Jude extensively when the group was separated). I'm guessing either Alvin or Leia, since Elize and Rowan are largely sit-back-and-cast characters (not that you'd know it from the AI's behavior sometimes, but I digress). Anybody have advice for those two? I tried Leia briefly when she first joined, but found her tough to use well and switched back to Jude, and I haven't played Alvin at all.

[Sylthia]

Yeah, it's especially bad with Milla being as mobile in the air as she is. I actually air-dashed off the stage more than once during my earliest attempts.


Speaking of which, while I don't think I'll jump into New Game+ immediately, I am planning to do so, and would like to use someone other than Milla and Jude as my main character during it (since I've spent most of this play-through with Milla and used Jude extensively when the group was separated). I'm guessing either Alvin or Leia, since Elize and Rowan are largely sit-back-and-cast characters (not that you'd know it from the AI's behavior sometimes, but I digress). Anybody have advice for those two? I tried Leia briefly when she first joined, but found her tough to use well and switched back to Jude, and I haven't played Alvin at all.

Alvin is very slow, but I found Leia pretty easy to use.

[Shekinah]

Turns out the problem with the Mystic Artes was I kept forgetting to put on Over Limit, heh...

Spoiler

Show

Is the party just gonna' forgive Anise for kidnapping and indirectly causing the death of Ion? At least Zelos made up for it when he turned traitor. I know it's pretty impossible, but I kind of want Arietta to win the duel. I bet she'd make a suitable replacement for the party.

Spoiler

Show

Yes, and it sucks. Rezzy and I could probably make a whole thread about how rage-inducing that is, but now you know why she's my least favorite Tales character. With Arietta coming as a close second.

[Airk]

Turns out the problem with the Mystic Artes was I kept forgetting to put on Over Limit, heh...

Spoiler

Show

Is the party just gonna' forgive Anise for kidnapping and indirectly causing the death of Ion? At least Zelos made up for it when he turned traitor. I know it's pretty impossible, but I kind of want Arietta to win the duel. I bet she'd make a suitable replacement for the party.

Because you really, REALLY need to 'forgive' someone for being blackmailed?

I don't want to get into this discussion, but the person who is most upset about this is probably Anise herself anyway.

Re: Xillia arena - I actually turned off Milla's aerial jump, because it just resulted in me hopping out of the arena a lot. The real trick to this though, seems to be to abuse ringouts yourself. Jude is HILARIOUSLY easy to win the arena with, because his Arcane Arte has hilariously stupid knockback on it, and can hurl most enemies out of the arena if they're anywhere near the edge. Oh, and it breaks guard. Other characters can abuse this too, but Jude seems to be far and away the best at it.

Actually, Jude seems to be a stupid good character in general. Both he and Milla are kinda broken compared to the rest of the cast, I think.

With regard to characters for a 2nd playthrough, well, I am mystified that anyone would even want to play as only one character for an entire playthrough. x.x But anyway, for the non-main characters:

Alvin is okay; He's slow as a very slow thing (though somehow still not as slow as Rowen) but his weapon attacks cover a big ol' area. He's bad at inflicting knockdowns, which is annoying if you are trying to link with Leia to steal things, but he has an arte for just about every elemental flavor, and he even has a healing arte (Guardian Field) which makes him pretty versatile. His 'charge' mechanic is interesting, but really requires a BUNCH of skills to be more than a gimmick. Once you have all those skills though, he's pretty good. Though a lot of the time he's actually better as a link partner, because guard breaking is super handy, and even with skills, he's better at it when linked then he is by himself.

Leia feels...incomplete to me. Like, she just doesn't have enough artes. Jude has more than 20, plus "Second Artes" plus Milla link artes. Leia has like...12. Three of which are basically the same, because when you get right down to it, First Aid vs Heal vs Cure is just a matter of "how long do you think you can stand still?" And three of which are stat buffs, which, as usual, are crap. She's also completely unable to use her signature Link ability (Stealing) when you play her. Her staff extension is neat and actually pretty strong, because it gives her Alvin+ levels of reach, but unlike Jude, who gets like 3 skills to make his backstep related ability activation better, Leia gets...none. Though at least Staff Extension 2 allows you to activate it via flash guard, which makes it vaguely viable to use. I really really wanted to like playing Leia, but her Martial artes are often really slow or mysteriously short ranged, her healing is kinda meh because everything takes too long to cast and she doesn't really get ANY casting support skills and she doesn't even have a status ailment removing arte. (Why Elise gets Recover AND Dispel eludes me, since there is basically NO reason to use Recover once you get Dispel.); She does get some item related skills, but honestly, I don't like item related skills very much (didn't use Repede in Vesperia) and the one that sounds most useful (Use items without having to stop) doesn't even really seem to work. She's not AWFUL - there are some things you can do with her Martial Artes if you practice, she has good elemental coverage (and Elemental Impulse) and Staff Extension is fun - but she seems more effective as an item stealing link partner and supporting healer (She doesn't have enough healing oomf to heal serious battles by herself, though you might be able to do it if you link her with Jude and use Pixie Heal a lot.)

Elize is actually pretty cool; She's a ridiculous healer, and her Dark spells are pretty good. Plus the ability to toggle Teepo and gain boosts to her Martial artes actually means she's not much worse than Leia at straight up fighting. A lot of her attacks are straight up hilarious as well.

Rowen is...interesting. Overall, he's a much BETTER caster than Milla is - he gets Tidal Wave way before she gets Solar Flare, and it's just a better Arte overall, and his Arte Tuning stuff makes casting with him much more interesting than doing it with Milla. Most importantly though, he gets way more casting support skills - reducing his casting time, preventing interruptions, and most importantly, allowing him to resume if interrupted. He really has a lot of power backing him up, and he can snap off low level spells VERY fast with the right skills. This is fortunate, because he is IMPOSSIBLY slow (though he does have an awesome backdash dodge ability if you are good at that) and his martial artes are pretty much junk (Though can be helpful when running away.). Rowen is actually much better when played by a person, I think, but that's more a reflection on his AI than anything.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah, it's especially bad with Milla being as mobile in the air as she is. I actually air-dashed off the stage more than once during my earliest attempts.


Speaking of which, while I don't think I'll jump into New Game+ immediately, I am planning to do so, and would like to use someone other than Milla and Jude as my main character during it (since I've spent most of this play-through with Milla and used Jude extensively when the group was separated). I'm guessing either Alvin or Leia, since Elize and Rowan are largely sit-back-and-cast characters (not that you'd know it from the AI's behavior sometimes, but I digress). Anybody have advice for those two? I tried Leia briefly when she first joined, but found her tough to use well and switched back to Jude, and I haven't played Alvin at all.

Well I used everybody some just for kicks on + game. I don't know about optimizing each for control but here's my impressions.

Alvin: TANK, but when you actually control him you notice he starts out really desperately slow. Gets better maybe mid-game if you make a point to nab his AGI points ASAP. Still very usable because he'll never go to zero HP but pretty different too. I tended to just bash things to death over using many of his arte since those go off a little slow too, need a bit more timing then just spamming them.

Leia: Jude-lite. She's probably the easiest to switch to from Jude and Milla since she's maybe the second fastest in the party and you don't have to use her as caster. Opposite of Alvin since she hits pretty fast but not that hard. Is really improved by her extending staff special ability since it seems to me to boost stun/stagger/etc not just reach so when its on she can really dominate enemies. Later on Soulstroke Spin is possibly the most spam happy move in the game. Has tons of neat linking artes too, mostly with Jude. I never used her healing spells though while controlling her.

Rowen: Umm most improved by controlling directly? I like AI Rowen well enough but Spell Tuning you get much more out of under your control. Hits pretty well for being a mage too but doesn't have a lot of tricks there. Like every mage ever is better later then sooner. Late game with casting speed boosts he can smash normal encounters to tiny pieces. Though this really isn't a casting oriented game... like at all.

Elize: Surprisingly tank-y? I only used her really late, because heal-botting is something the AI did really really well for me. When I did I found that despite her lower HP she seemed to take quite a pounding. Several Teepo moves are actually pretty good (Shot, Squash, Quake, Roar) and she seems to take the most pounding before an enemy will stop her spell casting. Her darkness spells are fairly decent but kinda limited. Late game (Tantalian Abyss late) she has the only quest-able ultimate weapon so will have it before you grind to max out the shops. She's even slower then Alvin though, and AI is better at heal-bot then me.

Overall I'm not sure any are quite up to Jude and Milla's smooth level of control while being able to easily rack up combo+arte+link-arte beatdowns for lots of damage, but for variety its still interesting. Alvin is probably the best for a third primary since you get him early and he's about even in effectiveness through the game.

[Zevox]

So, I got to what I'm 99% certain is the final boss. Frustration follows:

Spoiler

Show

So, I spent something like 15 minutes fighting Gaius and Muze, whittling them down much too slowly for my own liking, before noticing that Muze is using an item. I bring in Leia and steal that item, swap her back out for Alvin, figure things ought to proceed fine from there. A little later though, I check Muze's health, and she's somehow recovered to full (135k)! From about half!

I turned the game off at that point, just too ticked at how long the fight was going to take. And of course, since for some reason there was no save point before the fight, I now have to redo the final dungeon entirely. Including the boss fights with Wingul and the 2-on-1 with Gaius.

Yeah, I think I'll just turn the difficulty down to moderate, or even normal, permanently to finish this up. I like a challenge, but at this point the main challenge is to my patience, because of how ridiculous the health amounts these bosses get is. Especially Gaius in the final battle - if it was taking me that long to remove half of Muze's 135k health, I don't want to know how long it would take to whittle down his 300k.

[Soras Teva Gee]

So, I got to what I'm 99% certain is the final boss. Frustration follows:

Spoiler

Show

So, I spent something like 15 minutes fighting Gaius and Muze, whittling them down much too slowly for my own liking, before noticing that Muze is using an item. I bring in Leia and steal that item, swap her back out for Alvin, figure things ought to proceed fine from there. A little later though, I check Muze's health, and she's somehow recovered to full (135k)! From about half!

I turned the game off at that point, just too ticked at how long the fight was going to take. And of course, since for some reason there was no save point before the fight, I now have to redo the final dungeon entirely. Including the boss fights with Wingul and the 2-on-1 with Gaius.

Yeah, I think I'll just turn the difficulty down to moderate, or even normal, permanently to finish this up. I like a challenge, but at this point the main challenge is to my patience, because of how ridiculous the health amounts these bosses get is. Especially Gaius in the final battle - if it was taking me that long to remove half of Muze's 135k health, I don't want to know how long it would take to whittle down his 300k.

Don't worry that's the final boss.

I played only on the default difficulty so this may not hold up for you but...

Spoiler

Show

The trick seems to be walloping on Muzet's as fast and continuously as you can, she apparently heals when she guards or something so you have to not give her a break at all. Alvin is possibly a preferable link here for breaker, I did it with Jude and Milla.

And she comes back from the dead once. Yeah seriously.

Once you kill her the second time then wallop on Gaius.

Raging Beast and/or the final variation on Flare Blast for there good disruption seem the way to go.

[Zevox]

Don't worry that's the final boss.

I played only on the default difficulty so this may not hold up for you but...

Spoiler

Show

The trick seems to be walloping on Muzet's as fast and continuously as you can, she apparently heals when she guards or something so you have to not give her a break at all. Alvin is possibly a preferable link here for breaker, I did it with Jude and Milla.

And she comes back from the dead once. Yeah seriously.

Once you kill her the second time then wallop on Gaius.

Raging Beast and/or the final variation on Flare Blast for there good disruption seem the way to go.

Spoiler

Show

She comes back from the dead once?! Okay, that squares it, I'm definitely dropping the difficulty for that one, possibly all the way to normal. She's way too durable on hard for me to put up with that.

Edit: Alright, beat it. Thoughts tomorrow.

[Sylthia]

A bit too late now, but in Xillia, you can also quick save at any time, which is nice. That way you can still save in the area before the final boss, in case you need to grind.

[Airk]

A bit too late now, but in Xillia, you can also quick save at any time, which is nice. That way you can still save in the area before the final boss, in case you need to grind.

Stop it with the logic, when we want to complain about save spot placement, your fancy schmancy, newfangled "Quick saves" won't stand in our way! ;P

[Sylthia]

Stop it with the logic, when we want to complain about save spot placement, your fancy schmancy, newfangled "Quick saves" won't stand in our way! ;P

Back in my day, we beat Super Mario Bros in one sitting and we liked it!

[Wolf_Haley]

Late game Xillia

Spoiler

Show

I don't know why but the way Agria and Presa died bugged me, feel Alvin didn't get enough commeuppance for betraying Presa, that side storyline feels really underdeveloped. And it might have more to do with how it was done but Agria letting herself fall also bugged me. Kind of tried of that trope where the bad guy is going to die, good guy saves them, and the bad guy lets him/herself die

[Zevox]

A bit too late now, but in Xillia, you can also quick save at any time, which is nice. That way you can still save in the area before the final boss, in case you need to grind.

I know. But I was expecting a save point before the final boss - there had been one just before every boss prior to entering the final dungeon, after all - so I was caught completely off-guard when I wound up fighting it without ever running into one. I did quick-save before my second attempt, though.

Anyway, spoilery thoughts on the game now that I've finished it:

Spoiler

Show

It's fairly good, but not as much so as I'd hoped. It's a fun fantasy story with good twists and likeable characters, but I don't see much in the way of deeper themes like I do with Abyss and Vesperia.

I do like how there's not really any true villain to the story, with just blatantly malicious intentions to their actions. Well, okay, there's Agria, who's clearly just plain crazy, but she's an underling. Instead we get Nachtigal, who is being manipulated by Exodus; Exodus, who are definitely in the wrong in many of their actions but who we can come to see as victims of circumstance doing what they think is best for their world; and Gaius, who we see enough of to know he's simply doing what he thinks is best for both worlds, and who doesn't even spend the entire game in an antagonistic position. I actually think Gaius may be the most interesting character in the game, and I'll need to pay more attention to his parts, especially when he's talking with Milla, when I do New Game+. I feel like I may have missed exactly how his character develops from those interactions.

For the main party, sadly I think a lot of them are underdone. Jude does have an arc to his character I suppose, but it's mostly going from tagalong protagonist who follows Milla because circumstances force it or because he's enamored with her to being just as set on accomplishing her goals as she is. The whole series of scenes with him after Milla's death is pretty powerful, but sadly on the whole he's kind of bland.

For Milla, though I think I shouldn't pass full judgment on her until seeing her version of the story, I do think she's better. She plainly becomes a lot more human over time through her interactions with Jude and the others - though I wish her voice acting showed this a little more, as she never quite loses the monotone entirely - and in hindsight it is interesting to see how she ends up going against Maxwell's intentions precisely because she's trying to carry out the mission he gave her. Though I'm sad to think that she probably won't be a main, playable character in Xillia 2 because of how things end.

Of the others the most interesting is Alvin. I don't know that I can say entirely what I think of him yet though - I want to see his earlier actions again in light of everything we learn about him later in the game when I do New Game+. I will say that it did feel problematic to me how easily he was let back in the group after his first betrayal, though. Yes there's something to be said for keeping an eye on him, but there's also something to be said for not giving a known traitor a chance to betray you again. Oh, and it would've been nice to have a better idea of what his history is with Presa - as-is that was merely hinted at quite obliquely.

Then there's Rowen, who I think would be a more powerful character if so much of his backstory weren't running up against the "show, don't tell" rule. But since he's a secondary character at best it's kind of understandable, as it'd probably take a whole other game telling the story of him and Nachtigal to get that right. And maybe there's some side-quests giving more details about him that I missed.

Elize and Leia... eh. There's more there for Elize I suppose, but nothing too interesting to me. Although I think in my second play-through I'll have to watch more closely for insights into her character from what Teepo says, given what we learn about how he works. Leia though is pretty much like Cheria, only more likeable. And her problem isn't that Jude doesn't realize she likes him (although he doesn't) so much as that he has someone else he likes. I do appreciate them not making Leia go into jealous fits about that and turn it into an awkward sort of love triangle, though. She at least remains a pretty upbeat character throughout.

Gameplay-wise, it could've used Graces' system for normals - so that, you know, which one you used actually mattered - but on the whole I was quite pleased with it. Playing Milla was a lot of fun, with all the options that open up for her, between the skills that greatly enhance her air mobility (first time in possibly ever that jumping has actually mattered in a Tales game) and the variety of moves she gets, particularly since every spell is actually two moves. The link system was kind of fun too, in that it let you do a big super-style move pretty frequently. Seems a bit weird that there's hardly any reason not to be linked at all times, though. Auto-items was a good idea too, though strangely the AI just stopped using it after a little ways into the game. Have no idea why. (Before anyone brings it up: yes, I had the "use auto-items" thing in the strategy section set to "on" for everyone, and they still didn't use them).

[Soras Teva Gee]

I can see where your coming from with some of those points. Apparently Xillia ended up on a rushed schedule and while I wouldn't say it "shows" in the sense of being bad because of it they could definitely have done more without impacting the quality negatively.

I will say that Millia side while filling in some gaps... well the gaps from Jude's side are bigger so I was glad I did her second.

Now Alvin, you get a bit more just from Milla's side but he really depends on what (missable) side quests you do. Goes for everyone but I think especially him.

I found this guide very helpful for sub events.

[Zevox]

I will say that Millia side while filling in some gaps... well the gaps from Jude's side are bigger so I was glad I did her second.

That doesn't surprise me. I had started Milla's side first initially, but decided to switch to Jude's because the opening was just confusing me, jumping right into the middle of the action as it was. Jude's opening definitely helped with that, even though it reached the same point quite quickly.

Now Alvin, you get a bit more just from Milla's side but he really depends on what (missable) side quests you do. Goes for everyone but I think especially him.

Good to know. I'll definitely use a guide to make sure I hit all the missable side-quests in my New Game+ run.

Those are honestly something I kind of wish Tales could do away with though. I hate missing things like that, especially things that you have to go quite out of your way to find to begin with.

[Airk]

That doesn't surprise me. I had started Milla's side first initially, but decided to switch to Jude's because the opening was just confusing me, jumping right into the middle of the action as it was. Jude's opening definitely helped with that, even though it reached the same point quite quickly.

Oddly, I didn't feel that Milla's opening was at all "in the middle of things" except that Jude's entrance was totally baffling with his "Oh, I fell onto your glowing lillypad thing because I dropped something and went to pick it up." comment, which was like "...." Well, okay, and Jude made some references to a doctor we'd never met, but it didn't really throw me.

Those are honestly something I kind of wish Tales could do away with though. I hate missing things like that, especially things that you have to go quite out of your way to find to begin with.

Well, they can't ENTIRELY do away with the concept of missable quests without making the game sortof bland, because sometimes things happen, and people die, or places change, or whatever, and if there was a quest that depended on person X being alive or town Y still being in state Z, then it makes no sense for you to still be able to do that quest after that state has changed.

What _I_ wish Tales games would get rid of is the absurd "Okay, now that you are RIGHT BEFORE the final boss, at the point which should be the dramatic climax of the story, we are going to unlock 117 sidequests so that instead of following the dramatic arc of the plot, the thing you are 'supposed' to do is go help women find their pigs, collect a bunch of random gems, and explore some dungeons that you were inexplicably unable to access prior to this point." stuff. It's TERRIBLE design and I don't understand why it was EVER done, let alone why it KEEPS being done.

Missable quests, overall, are mostly just story/background stuff that fleshes out the characters and the world further, and the odd piece of optional/powerful gear. Effort should be made to make the 'missability' of sidequests make SENSE (**** you, Brionac quest in Vesperia!) but I don't think there's anything wrong with quests being missable. There are lots of other issues surrounding sidequests in these games, but the fundamental idea of 'missability' is not the problem, IMHO.

[Zevox]

Oddly, I didn't feel that Milla's opening was at all "in the middle of things" except that Jude's entrance was totally baffling with his "Oh, I fell onto your glowing lillypad thing because I dropped something and went to pick it up." comment, which was like "...." Well, okay, and Jude made some references to a doctor we'd never met, but it didn't really throw me.

It opens with Milla walking across water, Jude randomly popping up as you mentioned, Milla encasing him in an orb of water rather callously, and her entering an unknown building on an unexplained mission via the sewers. You're given no context to have any idea where you are, who either character is, or what's really going on.

Contrast to Jude's opening, where you very quickly learn that he's a medical student at a school, are given some important basic information about the setting when they explain spirits and how spirit artes work, and given a setup for how Jude becomes involved in events at the research facility. Milla remains a mystery for a time, but you have a lot better context for everything else.

Well, they can't ENTIRELY do away with the concept of missable quests without making the game sortof bland, because sometimes things happen, and people die, or places change, or whatever, and if there was a quest that depended on person X being alive or town Y still being in state Z, then it makes no sense for you to still be able to do that quest after that state has changed.

I understand the reasoning behind it. That still doesn't make me okay with it. I'd rather they made any event that was dependent on a certain character being alive or the like part of the main story to begin with, so it can't be missed. I suppose I'm less bothered by lesser quests that don't involve anybody important, like simple fetch quests that might be lost because a town is destroyed or something, though I can only imagine those would be easily enough moved to another town.

At the very least I think such quests ought to be made much easier to simply stumble into, rather than being something you have to go out of your way to find, as they tend to be now. I really don't want to use a guide on my first time through, yet with the Tales series I feel like I miss some interesting, potentially character-developing events by not doing so. And honestly, I can't say I can think of any other series that does that, so apparently every other game manages to get around this problem.

[Airk]

It opens with Milla walking across water, Jude randomly popping up as you mentioned, Milla encasing him in an orb of water rather callously, and her entering an unknown building on an unexplained mission via the sewers. You're given no context to have any idea where you are, who either character is, or what's really going on.

There was also some intro cinema, IIRC, and everything else about what she was doing there was explained within 15 minutes. It's not like they kept you in the dark for hours or something. I mean really.

Contrast to Jude's opening, where you very quickly learn that he's a medical student at a school, are given some important basic information about the setting when they explain spirits and how spirit artes work, and given a setup for how Jude becomes involved in events at the research facility. Milla remains a mystery for a time, but you have a lot better context for everything else.

I guess, but who really cares how the "magic system" works right off the bat? It's not as if they explain anything during the "beginning" of the game that is dependent on the player having that knowledge. And the rest of that is really only relevant to Jude - if you're playing Milla's story, it doesn't really make any difference Jude is a med student, even if you couldn't figure that out from seeing him dressed like one in the intro. So no, I disagree that you have "a lot better context for everything else." The additional context is explained before you need it. Frontloading the game with it doesn't make it better.

I understand the reasoning behind it. That still doesn't make me okay with it. I'd rather they made any event that was dependent on a certain character being alive or the like part of the main story to begin with, so it can't be missed.

Why? How does that even work? After all, many sidequests involve locations that you're not going to at that point as a result of the main story. Many of them don't even have much to do with the party (Think "Cecille and Frings" in Tales of the Abyss.) Trying to integrate them would, frankly, make a train wreck of the main storyline.

At the very least I think such quests ought to be made much easier to simply stumble into, rather than being something you have to go out of your way to find, as they tend to be now.

So you want to remove all sense of discovery from the game? That's what they're for, you know. To give you a sense that the world and the characters are more than this simple linear tale that you're pushing X to get through.

I really don't want to use a guide on my first time through, yet with the Tales series I feel like I miss some interesting, potentially character-developing events by not doing so.

Er, so what? Why do you believe you should get everything in a single playthrough? I don't use a guide for my first playthrough, and I have never felt that it was "lacking" because I missed some quest that I wouldn't even KNOW about if I hadn't read about it on the Internet. I think your problem isn't actually missing quests, but rather, knowing that you are missing quests. Maybe you should stop reading spoilers. And if you're not reading spoilers, how do you know you are missing this stuff?

And honestly, I can't say I can think of any other series that does that, so apparently every other game manages to get around this problem.

I don't usually like to just tell people that they are completely wrong, but you are completely wrong. Half the selling point of most western RPGs these days is all the optional non-linear content, ALL of which is missable. What series are you playing that don't have missable content? Atelier is FULL of this. Umpteen times worse than Tales. Final Fantasy? Maybe FF13 with it's "run down the corridor" gameplay and story didn't have much, but historically? The franchise is full of it. Seriously. What series of RPGs are you playing that DOESN'T have optional missable content? Or are you talking about non-RPGs? Hell, I've played adventure games that contained missable content. For years. Missable/optional content is a feature for story driven games.

[Zevox]

I guess, but who really cares how the "magic system" works right off the bat?

It helps give a sense of what this setting is like, which I feel is important at the start of a fantasy game. It also helps give an idea of the exact importance of Milla's claim to be the Lord of Spirits, and the fact that she was using the four Great Spirits, which does happen right at the start.

And the rest of that is really only relevant to Jude - if you're playing Milla's story, it doesn't really make any difference Jude is a med student, even if you couldn't figure that out from seeing him dressed like one in the intro.

Um, yes it does. He's still one of the main characters, regardless of if you select Milla as the main one to follow.

Why? How does that even work? After all, many sidequests involve locations that you're not going to at that point as a result of the main story. Many of them don't even have much to do with the party (Think "Cecille and Frings" in Tales of the Abyss.) Trying to integrate them would, frankly, make a train wreck of the main storyline.

I'm thinking of how a great many of them start simply by walking past a particular section of a town or talking to a particular character in a town after the first time you visited it - just have those trigger during that first visit instead of requiring backtracking. I don't recall the specific quest you're referencing from Abyss to address that one, unfortunately.

So you want to remove all sense of discovery from the game?

You mean besides the discoveries that you make over the course of the main story? I can honestly say I wouldn't mind that.

I don't use a guide for my first playthrough, and I have never felt that it was "lacking" because I missed some quest that I wouldn't even KNOW about if I hadn't read about it on the Internet. I think your problem isn't actually missing quests, but rather, knowing that you are missing quests. Maybe you should stop reading spoilers. And if you're not reading spoilers, how do you know you are missing this stuff?

Because I know from other entries in the series that Tales has those sorts of quests, of course. Also, I had a couple time-out on me in the middle of my own play-through (after finishing part 3 I believe) - ones which I had no hints on how to continue, so I can only assume they're among the sort that trigger when you walk past a particular area or talk to a particular person that you need to backtrack to. Before that point I technically didn't know for sure that Xillia hadn't done away with that, because no, I do not read spoilers or guides normally, but I had every reason to suspect it, and that confirmed it for me.

I don't usually like to just tell people that they are completely wrong, but you are completely wrong. Half the selling point of most western RPGs these days is all the optional non-linear content, ALL of which is missable.

In the sense that you could complete the game without doing it, maybe. Can't say that I've heard of many which actually have some become unavailable after a certain point. And perhaps you haven't seen them, but I've posted quite a few times how much I dislike that style of game design, especially the epitome of it, sandbox games.

Okay, I had typed out a longer post addressing specific statements you made after this more thoroughly, but I think I ought to make this more concise. To begin with, let me be specific about my problem here: it is not optional content. Optional content is anything not required to beat the main storyline, which I have no problem with per se. It's missable content, which can only be completed during a specific period of the game. And specifically for Tales, because of two things: one, many of the side-quests in Tales are activated by back-tracking that you wouldn't normally do, some by simply walking through an area even though there's no reason you would know that doing so will trigger anything. Two, some of these contain development for the characters, which in particular I feel should not be missable in a story-centric game.

All that said, on reflection, I can think of some other games with missable content. Always with reasons that it's not nearly as much of a problem for me as in Tales though: either the point where it expires is clearly delineated (Persona 3's Elizabeth quests, DA2's clearly defined chapters, etc), or at least the quests are assigned to you automatically and obvious in how to go about completing rather than being awkward to find as Tales' are (ME3's two timed side-quests being an example of this).

I can think of quite a few RPGs that I've played in the past few years without missable content as well, however. Valkyria Chronicles, Radiant Historia, Fire Emblem: Awakening, the mainline Shin Megami Tensei series, and Kingdoms of Amalur (I think - I admit I stopped doing anything but the main quest in that one after a while anyway) all come to mind, and there could be more that I'm forgetting.

Since you specific mentioned it, I should say that I have not played the Atelier series at this point. I've only had a PS3 since last Christmas, so there's a lot of exclusives that I haven't gotten around to trying, that among them. It's good to be forewarned about that though, thank you. And as for Final Fantasy, I don't have much history with the series, and never really spent much time actually trying to do side-quests in the ones I have played, so I can't say much about that.

[Soras Teva Gee]

What _I_ wish Tales games would get rid of is the absurd "Okay, now that you are RIGHT BEFORE the final boss, at the point which should be the dramatic climax of the story, we are going to unlock 117 sidequests so that instead of following the dramatic arc of the plot, the thing you are 'supposed' to do is go help women find their pigs, collect a bunch of random gems, and explore some dungeons that you were inexplicably unable to access prior to this point." stuff. It's TERRIBLE design and I don't understand why it was EVER done, let alone why it KEEPS being done.

Cutting out the melodramatic exaggeration that's not really a Tales thing so much as a JRPG thing. Going back at least to the tracking down of ultimate weapons IIRC in some of the earlier FF's and nabbing the ultimate weapons/spells/etc. Which of course establishes the purpose of waiting so they don't turn a game into easy mode should you nab them early.

Now Xillia the end quests don't really have much in the way of rewards since you will beat out the Devil Arms if you've been keeping up the shop leveling... but then the end game only sidequests are truly optional too for much the same reason.

Its the ones you have to start before that point that really add some nice developments to say Gaius, Jude, Alvin, and Elize but are seriously missable because the game doesn't encourage a lot of wandering to start these things, much less when something will suddenly be Gone Forever.

(That said I suspect they wanted more between Triglyph and the Final Dungeon)

More generally I've yet to find the game that can manage to dramatically pace both side-quests and a main plot out very well. The more you encourage just going around finding things, the more you diminish your main story. Conversely the more commanding the main story the more you can wonder why the character(s) are wasting time when the world's about to end.

[Demolator]

I actually kind of wish they'd give you a better indication of when sidequests are available in Tales games. I haven't gone on a single one in Abyss, I don't even know what sidequests it has.

Spoiler

Show

In Symphonia, I didn't even know about Yuan's ring until it was too late for me to start it.

[Sylthia]

Unfortunately, missable quests are a necessary evil in RPGs. I'm keeping Gamefaqs open for my New Game Plus Graces playthrough, just so I don't miss anything.