The MitD outwitting Xykon.

[Carry2]

I've been trying to think of a way to put this delicately, but I've recently come to the realisation that I... don't really take the plot of this strip very seriously any more.

It isn't really just the MitD spontaneously developing yet-another previously-unannounced plot-critical superpower, or that after days, weeks and months of delay Xykon manages to arrive during the five-minute interval needed to catch the Order at the scene, while being too late to stop them. It's more like a culmination of various niggling flaws in the strip that I've found harder and harder to ignore over time.

Strangely enough, there seemed to be very little comment on this in the general comic discussion, so I was wondering if this bothered anyone else?

[mhsmith]

not really. For starters:

1) MiTD made a legitimate tactical argument. "Screw it, these losers aren't important and the A team is probably in the other dungeon anyway" actually makes a lot of sense given the information at hand.

2) Xykon has been impulsive / random in his actions for a while. It's been driven home a bunch of times that he simply DOES NOT CARE about military tactics, strategy etc.

3) Xykon has on multiple occasions (here and here for instance) made it fairly clear that he likes challenges and is happy to let "good" aligned opponents hang around and level up until they become legit threats.

So yeah, I'd say this is completely in character and makes perfect sense in the context of the plot and events so far.

[Reverent-One]

It isn't really just the MitD spontaneously developing yet-another previously-unannounced plot-critical superpower,

What superpower? Being more intelligent than he appears/normally acts? That's nothing new.

[Kiraxa]

The mitd has been shown to be very intelligent, but not very wise. He picked up Go quite rapidly, and that's a very complex game.
Edit: damn ninjas!

[Morty]

What's more, Xykon would never expect the MitD to lie to him. So when he actually made a somewhat decent point, it never crossed his mind that he might have an ulterior motive.

[Carry2]

1) MiTD made a legitimate tactical argument. "Screw it, these losers aren't important and the A team is probably in the other dungeon anyone" actually makes a lot of sense given the information at hand.

Yes, except that the MitD is a moron, established as being oblivious to 90% of his surroundings and even to the existence of the Gates. That's what I mean by 'unannounced superpower', in that he's suddenly developed enough intelligence to cobble together a plausible cover-story based on obscure facts and artful conjecture in less than a minute.

While I might, with serious reservations, swallow Xykon's suspiciously-convenient insistence on shaving thirty seconds off a months-long time delay, I'm having trouble adjusting to the other bit.

[Kish]

Strangely enough, there seemed to be very little comment on this in the general comic discussion,

I wish.

It's a rare strip that doesn't get any "the comic isn't any good anymore" posts.

[Goosefeather]

No idea what you're talking about.

Apart from anything else, since when does 'constructing a decent argument' count as "yet-another previously-unannounced plot-critical superpower"?

'Surprising plot point' =/= Deus ex machina.
'Plot point I don't like' =/= Deus ex machina.
'Coincidence' =/= Deus ex machina.

We don't know what the MitD is. The fact that he might have powers of which we are not aware is a logical consequence of this.


Also, unrealistic coincidences and serendipitous timing form the crux of a vast amount of literature. Is it bad writing that Romeo wakes up five minutes too late to save Juliet, that Gandalf arrives just in time to save the day at Helm's Deep, or that Charles Darnay and Sydney Carton look virtually identical?

[Carry2]

Apart from anything else, since when does 'constructing a decent argument' count as "yet-another previously-unannounced plot-critical superpower"?

'Surprising plot point' =/= Deus ex machina...

In this case, yes, it is:

A deus ex machine... ...is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved, with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

To be fair, I wasn't ware of the Go reference, but it's also pretty obscure.

Also, unrealistic coincidences and serendipitous timing form the crux of a vast amount of literature. Is it bad writing that Romeo wakes up five minutes too late to save Juliet, that Gandalf arrives just in time to save the day at Helm's Deep, or that Charles Darnay and Sydney Carton look virtually identical?

When it happens all the damn time, yes. I would argue it is.

[Reverent-One]

Yes, except that the MitD is a moron, established as being oblivious to 90% of his surroundings and even to the existence of the Gates. That's what I mean by 'unannounced superpower', in that he's suddenly developed enough intelligence to cobble together a plausible cover-story based on obscure facts and artful conjecture in less than a minute.

Except it's also been established that the MitD has an intelligence buried within his childlike mindset. You have to ignore several events in order to support your conclusion.

[Kiraxa]

Yes, except that the MitD is a moron, established as being oblivious to 90% of his surroundings and even to the existence of the Gates. That's what I mean by 'unannounced superpower', in that he's suddenly developed enough intelligence to cobble together a plausible cover-story based on obscure facts and artful conjecture in less than a minute.

While I might, with serious reservations, swallow Xykon's suspiciously-convenient insistence on shaving thirty seconds off a months-long time delay, I'm having trouble adjusting to the other bit.

You're mixing intelligence with wisdom. Wisdom in d&d controls the major senses, as well as general naive...ness. The mitd has been shown to have awful awful wis, but quite high int.

[Carry2]

There are two lines in a strip from 450 pages back that might support this conclusion, as opposed to dozens of strips demonstrating absolute and utter cluelessness. Speaking personally, I'd prefer a little more buildup than that.

[davidbofinger]

He picked up Go quite rapidly, and that's a very complex game.

Actually, go is a very simple game, at least to play badly. The rules are about as complex as drafts or checkers, significantly easier than chess or its relatives.

The board position we're shown looks like a game between players who are quite weak though not utterly clueless. That probably describes Monster-san. I'm guessing it might take an amateur under instruction a few dozen games to play as well as Monster-san did. That's a huge guess.

O-Chul might be stronger - probably is - but if so he's treating the game purely as a teaching exercise and not trying to win. Which would be normal in that situation.

[RMS Oceanic]

The MitD also made an argument that appealed to recent events. By listening to Redcloak and staying in Azure City, Xykon ended up getting burned by the near loss of his phylactery, so when Redcloak proposes another delay, he's far less inclined to listen when a well reasoned counter argument exists.

Tangentially, it makes a nice comparison that Xykon is underestimating Roy the same way Wizards have underestimated him all his (un)life.

[Porthos]

"Don't confuse not caring with not knowing"
- Some random dude.

See, what makes you think Xykon was outwitted and doesn't now suspect something is up with the MitD? As has been said, he was given good reason (for him) to blow this popsicle stand. That he might suspect that the MitD is no longer 100 percent commited to Team Evil just means that he'll start keeping more of an eye on him.

And perhaps test him down the road, ala <SPOILERS DELETED>

Of course, maybe Xykon doesn't have any doubts about the MitD. But that'd be a sign of Xykon's ego at work (thinking that he is in such control of the MitD that it'd never betray him).

[F.Harr]

Why would I be bothered? The MitD isn't STUPID, he's willing to be lead. That doesn't make him a genious, either, but he doesn't pay attention. He might still be young for one of his kind. And if we knew the full range of powers he had, then we'd know what he is and the darkness would be superfluous.

It's still a good story.

[Goosefeather]

In this case, yes, it is:

A deus ex machine... ...is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved, with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

We don't have an established comprehensive set of abilities for the MitD. This is not the norm for a literary character. If Roy were to suddenly shoot fire from his eyebrows to defeat Xkyon, that would be DeM, because the new ability is outside of his previously established skillset. This does not apply to the MitD, because we don't know what he is, nor what he is capable of.

[Reverent-One]

There are two lines in a strip from 450 pages back that might support this conclusion, as opposed to dozens of strips demonstrating absolute and utter cluelessness. Speaking personally, I'd prefer a little more buildup than that.

I didn't just link to the Go strip.

Actually, go is a very simple game, at least to play badly. The rules are about as complex as drafts or checkers, significantly easier than chess or its relatives.

The board position we're shown looks like a game between players who are quite weak though not utterly clueless. That probably describes Monster-san. I'm guessing it might take an amateur under instruction a few dozen games to play as well as Monster-san did. That's a huge guess.

O-Chul might be stronger - probably is - but if so he's treating the game purely as a teaching exercise and not trying to win. Which would be normal in that situation.

The emphasis O-chul places on how quickly the MitD is learning implies it's surprising how well he's taking to it, and when the MitD later shows more intelligence than is expected, it becomes obvious foreshadowing.

[Sir_Leorik]

It isn't really just the MitD spontaneously developing yet-another previously-unannounced plot-critical superpower, or that after days, weeks and months of delay Xykon manages to arrive during the five-minute interval needed to catch the Order at the scene, while being too late to stop them. It's more like a culmination of various niggling flaws in the strip that I've found harder and harder to ignore over time.

[CrocodileDundee]That's not a plot-critical superpower, this is a plot-critical superpower.[/CrocodileDundee]

The MitD made a Bluff check followed by a Diplomacy check; he has a pretty decent Charisma score (see circus scene in SoD), and may even have ranks in either skill. Xykon was inclined to believe him, which didn't provide Xykon with a bonus to his opposed Sense Motive roll. Redcloak did have a reason to disagree with the MitD, but once Xykon was convinced, there was no more arguing.

The MitD has taken O-Chul's speech about thinking for himself and free will to heart. He's not stupid, but he is gullible and naive. He's done some pretty smart things before, and some really foolish things, indicating a high Intelligence and low Wisdom.

[F.Harr]

I've been clueless and gullible. And I'm very smart.

The MitD's possibly just a child.

[Porthos]

I would also point out that the MitD bothers to think when it comes to O-Chul was very memorably well established in the comic. Otherwise he is willing to be led around the nose, sailing through life.

How different is this scene you are talking about than the ones where O-Chul was in danger or where they were talking about philosophy and An Unexamined Life?

O-Chul awoke something in the MitD, and the MitD hasn't been the same since.

ETA: While MitD 2.0 (MitD Awakened? MitD Elightened? ) does seem to be more aware of things and able to remember his past (observations on both Tsukiko's character and remembering about the Astral Plane), he still has his he still has his blind spots when it comes to people (Awww Tsukiko's not that bad *munch* *munch* *munch* *munch*)

Why it's as if the MitD is undergoing Character Development!

[JennTora]

Mitd may not even be able to see the gates... For some reason...

[Carry2]

We don't have an established comprehensive set of abilities for the MitD. This is not the norm for a literary character. If Roy were to suddenly shoot fire from his eyebrows to defeat Xkyon, that would be DeM, because the new ability is outside of his previously established skillset...

No, that would be closer to comic relief, because human non-casters flat-out cannot shoot fire from their eyebrows. But even if the MitD's species being unknown somehow legitimated being a DeM-factory, we're not talking about an unknown quantity here. The MitD's intelligence and connection to reality is established as being as being abysmal in dozens of strips, with questionable evidence to the contrary.

I mean, sure, I've been known to dwell on minutiae myself, but I'd still have a problem with certain characters going directly from 'glaring suspicion' to flowers-and-chocolates-for-all in the space of one strip, just because the protagonists find it handy.
.

[Reverent-One]

No, that would be closer to comic relief, because human non-casters flat-out cannot shoot fire from their eyebrows. But even if the MitD's species being unknown somehow legitimated being a DeM-factory, we're not talking about an unknown quantity here. The MitD's intelligence and connection to reality is established as being as being abysmal in dozens of strips, with questionable evidence to the contrary.

Again, incorrect. Simply ignoring the counter evidence doesn't make it go away, if you want people to take your arguments seriously, you'd do well to actually address it.

[F.Harr]

How much focus does a five-year-old have? Maybe the MitD is simply a small child in his species?

[Porthos]

but I'd still have a problem with certain characters going directly from hack-slash-kill to flowers-and-chocolates-for-all in the space of one strip, just because the protagonists find it handy.

But it's NOT one strip, as we have pointed out.

Consider, the MitD took the initiative to seek out Tsukiko to try to find out what happened to O-Chul. He realized that Tsukiko had the skill set to help him with a problem and fashioned a plan of attack to execute it.

This isn't the actions of a brain dead drooling idiot.

That he overlooked the Cloister problem just means he didn't take in the whole picture.

The MitD has been slowly coming out of his shell and acting on his own as opposed to being happy with being fed and lounging around.

His problem wasn't intelligence. It was that he was a underachieving slacker. Who may have had a huge blind spot in regards to memory on things he didn't particularly care that much about.

[Macros]

As it was mentioned, MitD's connexion to reality seems to have improved a lot recently, especially when O-Chul is concerned. so yeah, bluffing Xykon with a well-thought argument certainly was a first, but I find it to be in the continuity of his recent appearences (let's add to that that the MitD is probably the last person you expect a bluff from, so that must help. Even Redcloak must be a bit confused right now).

Now, what I DO agree with is the fact that for a guy who just ate an explosion to the face, and that just saw ANOTHER chance at world domination go *poof*, Xykon demonstrates unusual self-control; I'd expect him to at least murder something to calm down a bit, and yet, he passed out on the chance of killing a couple of guys, keeping him busy for, what... three-four rounds, tops ? I'd agree that seemed a bit convenient, but it'd take a lot more to break my suspension of disbelief.

[Carry2]

I didn't just link to the Go strip.

That's not showing outstanding intelligence so much as less-than-absolute stupidity. Even if we accept that O-Chul's remark means the MitD has hidden potential- rather than being a flattering remark to encourage a shaky novice- he has never cannily bamboozled his way past anyone before. It's completely out of the blue.

And when it comes to something this absolutely 100% plot-critical, I prefer the narrative underpinning to be pretty f***ing ironclad. This is not it.

Now, what I DO agree with is the fact that for a guy who just ate an explosion to the face, and that just saw ANOTHER chance at world domination go *poof*, Xykon demonstrates unusual self-control; I'd expect him to at least murder something to calm down a bit, and yet, he passed out on the chance of killing a couple of guys, keeping him busy for, what... three-four rounds, tops?

EDIT: Also, that.
.

[Porthos]

And when it comes to something this absolutely 100% plot-critical, I prefer the narrative underpinning to be pretty f***ing ironclad. This is not it.

One might say that the MitD bluffing Xykon WAS the plot-critical moment.

If one believes that The Order of the Stick is a character driven work of fiction, that is.

[Reverent-One]

That's not showing outstanding intelligence so much as less-than-absolute stupidity. Even if we accept that O-Chul's remark means the MitD has hidden potential- rather than being a flattering remark to encourage a shaky novice- he has never cannily bamboozled his way past anyone before. It's completely out of the blue.

Did you miss how he, without even trying, identified the problem with the ritual that Tsukiko had been studying for some time without making any progress? That's quite a bit better than less-than-absolute stupidity. And making up an excuse that the missing team members were getting the lead on them and using a genre-savy reference to who's the real hero in the story doesn't require genius level intelligence itself.

Now, what I DO agree with is the fact that for a guy who just ate an explosion to the face, and that just saw ANOTHER chance at world domination go *poof*, Xykon demonstrates unusual self-control; I'd expect him to at least murder something to calm down a bit, and yet, he passed out on the chance of killing a couple of guys, keeping him busy for, what... three-four rounds, tops ? I'd agree that seemed a bit convenient, but it'd take a lot more to break my suspension of disbelief.

He's got his eye on the prize now, what with the events of Azure City and almost losing his key to immortality. Wasting time unneccessarily (like killing irrelevant adventurers) is something he's strongly against now.