The MitD outwitting Xykon.

[Morty]

To say the MitD is stupid completely misses the point of his personal character arc. He's not stupid, he was just, until recently, completely passive. He went with whatever Xykon and Redcloak wanted, because they gave him food and toys, and he never saw reason to actually think or put effort into anything. Now he finally does.

[Porthos]

Did you miss how he, without even trying, identified the problem with the ritual that Tsukiko had been studying for some time without making any progress?

I might even go as far as to say that if one ignores nearly every single MitD strip since this one, over 425 strips ago, then, yes, the MitD bluffing Xykon is out of the blue.

But ever since the very next strip where he shows attachment to O-Chul and Roy and the very one after that where he remembers who The Order of the Stick are, he has shown a clear arc of character development.

He starts to engage with the world around him in that strip (and by extension, the plot/narrative) and he changes as a result of it. As has been shown by the numerous strips that have been linked since.

[Goosefeather]

And making up an excuse that the missing team members were getting the lead on them and using a genre-savy reference to who's the real hero in the story doesn't require genius level intelligence itself.

Exactly - I wouldn't bat an eyelid if Elan came up with something like that in similar circumstances.

[SowZ]

I've been trying to think of a way to put this delicately, but I've recently come to the realisation that I... don't really take the plot of this strip very seriously any more.

It isn't really just the MitD spontaneously developing yet-another previously-unannounced plot-critical superpower, or that after days, weeks and months of delay Xykon manages to arrive during the five-minute interval needed to catch the Order at the scene, while being too late to stop them. It's more like a culmination of various niggling flaws in the strip that I've found harder and harder to ignore over time.

Strangely enough, there seemed to be very little comment on this in the general comic discussion, so I was wondering if this bothered anyone else?

As for Xykon arriving at that exact moment, it has been established a dozen times at least that OOTS world literally follows rules of drama and convention since it is a world that mimics roleplaying games, (though not literally being a roleplaying game.)

[Porthos]

As for Xykon arriving at that exact moment, it has been established a dozen times at least that OOTS world literally follows rules of drama and convention since it is a world that mimics roleplaying games, (though not literally being a roleplaying game.)

It was also the Rule of Funny.

: Behold! I am here now, finally, to take over this Ga-

*KRAAAAAKKKKKOOOOOOMMMMM*
*moment of stunned silence*

: Dammit! Where was the next Gate again, Wrong-Eye?

[Carry2]

Did you miss how he, without even trying, identified the problem with the ritual that Tsukiko had been studying for some time without making any progress...

*shrugs* I assumed because he overheard Redcloak talking about it beforehand. (In which case, telling Tsukiko about it was perhaps not the brightest idea.)

He's got his eye on the prize now, what with the events of Azure City and almost losing his key to immortality...

That is one plausible interpretation. Here is another: A guy with serious impulse-control problems willing to spend decades to attain world domination is hardly unlikely to spend a few rounds venting against the nearest tangible source of his frustrations.

Again, not exactly ironclad.

[Porthos]

That is one plausible interpretation. Here is another: A guy with serious impulse-control problems willing to spend decades to attain world domination is hardly unlikely to spend a few rounds venting against the nearest tangible source of his frustrations.

Again, not exactly ironclad.

And that WAS his natural instinct (killing things, that is). Until he was given a compelling reason to leave.

After all, this wasn't the first time he was willing to let an adventurer go when he had other things to do.

Could have gone either way, and it went the other way.

[Reverent-One]

*shrugs* I assumed because he overheard Redcloak talking about it beforehand. (In which case, telling Tsukiko about it was perhaps not the brightest idea.)

Can you find any time that Redcloack discussed that Xykon only had one half of the ritual where the MitD could plausibly have overheard it?

That is one plausible interpretation. Here is another: A guy with serious impulse-control problems willing to spend decades to attain world domination is hardly unlikely to spend a few rounds venting against the nearest tangible source of his frustrations.

Again, not exactly ironclad.

Given that he specifically mentions the wasted time in Azure City and how it set them back, it's less interpertation and more stated fact.

[Carry2]

As for Xykon arriving at that exact moment, it has been established a dozen times at least that OOTS world literally follows rules of drama and convention...

Frankly, this is a convention that has started to wear a little thin for me, because I'm not sure it's actually a convention, or if it isn't possible to overuse.

IBut ever since the very next strip where he shows attachment to O-Chul and Roy and the very one after that where he remembers who The Order of the Stick are, he has shown a clear arc of character development.

Yeah, except for the strip where he mentions that Xykon was supposed to introduce him to the OOTS before devouring them. Yet Xykon himself doesn't remember any of this.

Not to mention the strip where he mentions having difficulty with the concepts of 'pushing' and 'pulling', because that requires remembering two things at once. Mensa, hold the phone.

[Carry2]

Can you find any time that Redcloack discussed that Xykon only had one half of the ritual where the MitD could plausibly have overheard it?

I don't know. When does he plausibly get time to enter magic college and take levels in spellcraft? And which is the simpler explanation?

Given that he specifically mentions the wasted time in Azure City and how it set them back, it's less interpertation and more stated fact.

And that WAS his natural instinct (killing things, that is). Until he was given a compelling reason to leave...
...Could have gone either way, and it went the other way.

Could just be me, but I'd put the odds at rather less than 50/50.

[Goosefeather]

Yeah, except for the strip where he mentions that Xykon was supposed to introduce him to the OOTS before devouring them. Yet Xykon himself doesn't remember any of this.

But, uh, it happened. All you've done there is provide proof that MitD has a better memory than Xykon...

I don't know. When does he plausibly get time to enter magic college and take levels in spellcraft? And which is the simpler explanation?

And this is what we call a false dilemma.

[Macros]

*shrugs* I assumed because he overheard Redcloak talking about it beforehand. (In which case, telling Tsukiko about it was perhaps not the brightest idea.)

Flat out impossible; The whole POINT was that Redcloak should remain unaware of what Tsukiko was doing. No, this scene clearly showed that, at the very least, the MitD has an instinctive understanding of magic, which CAN be a sign of high intelligence. That's not necessarily true, but given that the signs keep popping up recently, it is quite likely that he is actually quite intelligent, but usualy too naive and lazy to put it to use. Which is beginning to change;


about Xykon ; it's true it's not the first time he's willing to let a good guy go. It's just, I thought he'd be a bit more angry than that. But I can't shake off the feeling that he actually IS on a warpath... against Redcloak, that is. He took Tsukiko's death way too calmly, and I don't buy the easy explanation "well, he kinda forgot about her". So, perhaps this recent comic was simply a way to vent a bit of frustration by annoying Redcloak. I think what gives me trouble is the fact that a lot of things has happened to the different members of Team Evil, but we didn't get the time to see how they adjusted to that. Their dynamic is certainly not the same as before, but it's still hard to precisely point out what changed.

[Porthos]

Yeah, except for the strip where he mentions that Xykon was supposed to introduce him to the OOTS before devouring them. Yet Xykon himself doesn't remember any of this.

The MitD was referring to this and this and this, of course. That Xykon doesn't remember is rather irrelevant.

In fact, it is also well established that the MitD, more than anything, wants to be let out of the darkness. So it makes sense that he would remember things related to leaving the darkness, if somewhat vaguley.

Mensa, hold the phone.

Pretty sure none of us has claimed Mensa membership here. I do think some of us have claimed that when he is motivated he isn't quite as clueless and childlike as when he isnt as motivated.

The people who have compared MitD to Elan are on the right track I think. When Elan is motivated, he is capable of much greater things than when he just goes with the flow. Now I think it's pretty obvious that Elan is a bit higher up the ladder when it comes to perception. But the similarities between the two characters are still there.

It seems to me that you are simply ignoring all of the moments where the MitD didn't act like a drooling idiot. If there had been only one or two, I could get it. But there have been plenty of times where he has actually gone out and done things on his own.

Once again, how is this bluffing of Xykon any different than the MitD coming up with a plan to ask Tsukiko to find O-Chul. If anything I find the latter more challenging than the former, because the former was a flash of desperation rather than a planned out stratagem.

[Reverent-One]

I don't know. When does he plausibly get time to enter magic college and take levels in spellcraft? And which is the simpler explanation?

Who says he had to enter a magic college? Of the two options, that he figured it out himself, or that he only knew because of another character having an offscreen conversation that never been shown or referenced, the first is simpler (and the more common interpertation from the discussion thread on the topic). Especially when you consider the other hints about it the Giant has been dropping.

Could just be me, but I'd put the odds at rather less than 50/50.

I don't know why you'd doubt what the character explictly says without a reason to lie about it, but that's your prerogative.

[Amphiox]

This is not deux-ex-machina. It is character growth.

One of the things that bugs me to no end is people declaring deux-ex-machina all the time. You actually CANNOT, ever, determine if something in a work of literature is a deux-ex-machina until AFTER the whole narrative is done.

Because what might appear to be a deux-ex-machina can easily be the introduction of a new plot point, or simply the next step in revealing a character.

You have to know both the past AND THE FUTURE of the narrative before you can tell if any event within the narrative qualifies as a deux-ex-machina.

[Amphiox]

Here's another example of the MitD's hidden depths.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html

He proved pretty insightful concerning Tsukiko's character. And the context makes it pretty plain that he knew this for some time. Those are hardly the words of a clueless, imbecilic entity.

In fact this is an indication that even his WIS may not be terrible. As that kind of character assessment typically comes from wisdom, not intellect. Though high charisma might help with it.

[The Giant]

Could just be me, but I'd put the odds at rather less than 50/50.

Really? Oh, crap, I better change the story, since as we all know, I'm legally bound to depict only the single most statistically probable outcome to every event, with those probabilities being based solely on one reader's judgment.

HEY GUYS, NO NEW COMICS FOR A FEW MONTHS WHILE I REWRITE EVERYTHING.

[Kolhammer]

sad day here

[Carry2]

The MitD was referring to this and this and this, of course. That Xykon doesn't remember is rather irrelevant.

I think it is rather relevant. Xykon has a much better memory than the MitD when it comes to most of the relevant facts of their adventure, and it was idea to have the OOTS killed in the first place, yet after three near-fatal encounters he still can't remember who Greenhilt is, and the MitD can. I find that suspiciously convenient.

Pretty sure none of us has claimed Mensa membership here. I do think some of us have claimed that when he is motivated he isn't quite as clueless and childlike as when he isnt as motivated.

I just think it calls into question the idea of consistent character development. (It's also a little strange that merely wanting to be super-smart will cause you to spontaneously become so, any more than wishing for a third arm will cause one to grow out of your forehead.)

He was not bluffing Tsukiko. He was asking her help in a totally straightforward fashion. He's showing a little initiative, but that's not the same thing as deceit or intelligence. And yes, I believe one needs ranks in Spellcraft to independently understand arcane writings, because that's what's in the skill descriptor, and it makes intuitive sense. As opposed to certain alternatives.

HEY GUYS, NO NEW COMICS FOR A FEW MONTHS WHILE I REWRITE EVERYTHING.

Finally! Geez. The things I have to do to get service around here.


...At any rate, this discussion seems to be straying into dangerous territory, so I'll leave it there.
.

[Porthos]

It's also a little strange that merely wanting to be super-smart will cause you to spontaneously become so, any more than wishing for a third arm will cause one to grow out of your forehead.

What, precisely, has the MitD done in Comic Number 901, which is where all of this arguing started, that requires being 'super-smart'?

Answering that doesn't require one to go into 'dangerous territory' as you put it.

I think it is rather relevant. Xykon has a much better memory than the MitD when it comes to most of the relevant facts of their adventure, and it was idea to have the OOTS killed in the first place, yet after three near-fatal encounters he still can't remember who Greenhilt is, and the MitD can. I find that suspiciously convenient.

Xykon doesn't care who Roy is. He has repeatedly said so. The MitD does care about being let out of the darkness. He (?) has repeatredly said so.

There's your difference right there.

It seems to me that when presented with mountains of evidence that the MitD's actions in Comic Number 901 weren't a One Off, which was your original claim, you're now saying, "Well, I didn't like those developments either."

If you don't like the direction of the character devlopment of the MitD, that's fine. That's your perogative as a reader. But to claim that it is out of the blue and a DeM is simply not supported by the evidence.

Don't like the direction of a story? Fine and dandy. Think it is unreasonable? Also fine and dandy. But that does not make it a DeM, which was where all of this started.

[The Giant]

I just think it calls into question the idea of consistent character development. (It's also a little strange that merely wanting to be super-smart will cause you to spontaneously become so, any more than wishing for a third arm will cause one to grow out of your forehead.)

Can you prove that if the Monster in the Darkness wanted to grow a third arm out of his forehead, he would be incapable of doing so?

[Porthos]

Can you prove that if the Monster in the Darkness wanted to grow a third arm out of his forehead, he would be incapable of doing so?

Don't say things like that when the MitD theorists can hear you, Rich!

[Angel Bob]

Really? Oh, crap, I better change the story, since as we all know, I'm legally bound to depict only the single most statistically probable outcome to every event, with those probabilities being based solely on one reader's judgment.

HEY GUYS, NO NEW COMICS FOR A FEW MONTHS WHILE I REWRITE EVERYTHING.

What with comic #904's punchline and now this post, Giant, you're in rare form. Also, my sides appear to have split open, so if I could request some medical help...

[Rakoa]

Can you prove that if the Monster in the Darkness wanted to grow a third arm out of his forehead, he would be incapable of doing so?

And here is the main flaw I can see with arguing about this. The MitD has a specific set of abilities that we, as readers, are unaware of. To argue about his limitations and powers would be a bit redundant. His powers could easily be an adaptable +30 to any skill, which would explain his various Knowledges, use of Spellcraft and display of Bluff.

Or any other number of explanations. There's no way to prove it as of yet.

[Goosefeather]

Can you prove that if the Monster in the Darkness wanted to grow a third arm out of his forehead, he would be incapable of doing so?

Aha, so he has two arms and a forehead? To the MitD speculation thread!

[Emanick]

Aha, so he has two arms and a forehead? To the MitD speculation thread!

This is conclusive proof that the MitD is a shapeshifter! Team Protean is vindicated!

[Olinser]

Don't say things like that when the MitD theorists can hear you, Rich!

TOO LATE!!!

[mhsmith]

This thread is completely hilarious, but just to take it seriously (again):

1) MiTD's observations did NOT, I repeat NOT, require particularly high intelligence. Heck, he didn't start out a coherent case for leaving, it was all "uh, how about this" and hand-waving. By the end of it he'd made a case, but it's not like he was a master of logic here.

2) Xykon didn't, and still doesn't, care about OOTS. REDCLOAK does (which is highlighted throughout the strip) but it's obvious that Xykon doesn't. "we're killing them? cool. oh, we're not killing them? whatever."

Neither of these are remotely out of character or deus ex machina. Surprising to some degree, sure, but they're fundamentally consistent with both the characters and the plot.

[Leirus]

Really? Oh, crap, I better change the story, since as we all know, I'm legally bound to depict only the single most statistically probable outcome to every event, with those probabilities being based solely on one reader's judgment.

HEY GUYS, NO NEW COMICS FOR A FEW MONTHS WHILE I REWRITE EVERYTHING.

Lol. I read the Caps first and had a mini heart attack.

Anyway, I think the MitD gets a huge bonus because Xykon thinks he is extremely stupid. Only O'Chul (and us) ever realized that the monster was actually quite smart. Xykon would never suspect that "moron" trying to trick him. Neither would Redcloack, by that matter... in that strip, RC thinks the monster is just being an idiot, as always.

Also, I am starting to suspect that the Mitd just cannot see the gates. I wonder what that would mean.

[Zherog]

And yes, I believe one needs ranks in Spellcraft to independently understand arcane writings, because that's what's in the skill descriptor, and it makes intuitive sense. As opposed to certain alternatives.

Nobody's disagreeing with you that he likely has ranks in Spellcraft. What they're disagreeing with you about is that he had to go to school to get those ranks, as opposed to gaining them from some other means such as "in his blood" or whatever.