Personal Woes and Advice 3

[Skeppio]

That is simply wrong. Practice without talent beats talent without practice any day of the week. Yes, life is unfair and some people have a better start than others. But anyone who's ever accomplished anything worth mentioning did so because of their dedication, not because of beauty, luck or birthright. So as one of the "gifted" people let me tell you something: it matters jack squat how good or successful you are at something - it's not going to make you happy if you lack the right attitude. Why? Because you will still want more and still feel like someone else is doing better than you. You will still have days where you feel like an impostor that can't accomplish anything. Go ahead and read the biography of any random famous person if you don't believe me. There will always be someone who is better than you at what you do or what you like and it will make you feel bad it times. Which is why you have to derive your self-worth from yourself and the things you do, not from some relation to any other person. Your happyness is your own job - don't push the responsibility for that on someone else, because that's not how it works. Having someone in your life isn't magically going to make you happy or fix your problems.

Talent means you will always be good at what you do. Practice can and will fail you. Gifted people are born to be superior beings to ungifted trash like me. Luck, wealth and beauty will always get you further than honest hard work. Hard work is always exploited. No good deed goes unpunished. That's the world we live in, like it or not. Celebrities who doubt themselves are just greedy whiners who aren't satisfied with their millions of dollars, worldwide prestige, massive popularity, etc. Nothing but sickening whiners who'll never know what real problems are.
Having someone in my life gives me a reason to live. Someone worth living for. Proof that there is good in the world. It would shatter my grim worldview, because I'd have evidence that it cannot be true. Alone, I have nothing to be proud of. Why should I be proud of being an ugly 26-year old man who lives with mummy and daddy and doesn't even have his license? I'm a disgrace.

If you had spent even half the energy that you're currently using to try to convince yourself and everyone in this thread of how miserable your life supposedly is, you'd have already accomplished something that would make you feel better (and no, I don't mean killing yourself). If you find your life to be so horrible that you don't want it anymore, then change it. You don't have to kill yourself to end your current life. There are plenty of options for a completely fresh start. And as you've pointed out time and again, you apparently have absolutely nothing to lose by trying.

There's no way to change my life. No-one will accept any change in me unless I completely destroy everything that makes me who I am and become someone I never wanted to be, just to please others. Is that what you want? Of course it is. All you people ever want is someone to completely change who they are for your approval. **** individuality, individuality means there might be people who disagree with you! People should be only what YOU want them to be, right? I have everything to lose by changing my life, because that's exactly what changing my life means!

If in fact you are clinically depressed. Than by present models the neurotransmitters in your brain/ firing patterns are out of balance.

I know I'm clinically depressed. No-one cares though.

Meaning what you currently view as realistic view of the world is influenced by the imbalance in your mind. It's a cruel reality of depression and what tends to make it self-perpetuating. you get a depressive spiral.

No, it just makes me able to see the truth of my situation. The worthless happy pills doctors gave me were just an attempt to keep me drugged and incoherent so I couldn't see the harsh truth that my life is nothing but a cruel joke.

Going to a psychiatrist, figuring out if you have depression and taking medication won't fix the external world, but it will likely change your perspective on reality. Which will open door to allow you to fix your physical situation that your mental state had closed off.

My perspective has no bearing on my problems. I can be happy, sad, angry, indifferent, but my problems are exactly the same. They're all reliant on external factors that my outlook, a psychiatrist, and any medication cannot alter. It cannot make people love me, they decide that they hate me regardless of my attitude.

There's not much more I can say except that it's worth a shot, because if you have clinical depression your whole reality is skewed. And when making a life ending desicion I think you owe it to yourself to be sure you are thinking clearly. Do you think that is true?

No, I do not. I already know I'm thinking clearly when I say I'm planning to kill myself. It's the clearest, most logical thought I could ever have in my life. It's the answer to all my problems, nothing else can even promise a possible solution over even one problem. Suicide guarantees a swift end to them all in one go.

With all due respect, Skeppio you don't.

Yeah, I love it when people put smiley faces everywhere when they're being patronising and insulting. As if I don't already know how smug and condescending you're being, that I apparently need a visual aid.

I used to draw people as some kind of weird ass combo between a pig and a hieroglyph illustration. I despaired, because I couldn't draw very well and gave up drawing altogether. Then, while going back from a trip to Paris (that went horribly btw it didn't inspire **** in me and I managed to ruin trip to Paris for my sister too :P; I hated Paris with a rage of thousand suns), I saw a child drew a picture, and I said to myself. I can draw like that. Funny enough, several months of practice after - I did. It's not a huuuuuge step forward (ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED: You can draw better than a small child), but it's showed me I can improve. Now I'm not too great, but I can occasionally copy a character to a higher fidelity than before.

Depends on the practice. To quote my math teacher, practice is necessary but not sufficient condition.

If you just attempt to draw and draw without stopping to compare and fix you won't progress. There is a thing called deliberate practice. It involves stopping, looking at the work, noticing where it went wrong and attempting again to fix it. Sometimes you might need an expert opinion to help guide you, but usually you can tell where picture deviates.

That's not what I'm trying to convey. I remember a story about a Buddhist monk. He used to trawl the sites, trying to help suicidal people. But the more he helped, or tried to help, the more he became depressed. The pain of so many people he couldn't save weighted on his soul. Until one day, it dawned upon him. He would no longer traverse the sites looking for people to help, he'd tell people that were depressed to meet him at his temple, for he realized that there are people you can't save, and only people that truly wanted his help would go a long way to seek him out physically at his temple.

I similarly spent my time reading and trying to help people, but the more I did, the more depressed I became. I too knew, that for every person I help, a millions more die or starve. Then one day I read the story above and was enlightened. I'm just another human. I can't save everyone. And I can't help you, if you don't want to help yourself. It's like the proverb about horse and water. I can only take you so far.

And no, I don't have any understanding what your life is like. Likewise you have no understanding what my life is like. ****, my dream is to moving to a more prosperous place like Australia, instead of being stuck where I am. As far as I'm concerned, you are living my dream

That's horrible! So basically the monk said "Come to me if you want help. If you're bed-ridden, or have a broken leg, or can't afford to get over to MY place, you don't deserve help". Not everyone can just get up and go to where they need. Not everyone is able to help themselves. You're basically saying that no-one should ever need help. Attitudes like that are responsible for countless suicides.

No, you don't want to come here. Australia is not a land of prosperity, it's a land of hatred, unaffordable living costs and lack of opportunity. This whole country is a laughing stock.

I refuse to believe that. Every human has within himself something of worth. It's only the question of (re)discovering it. I'm going to echo other people and ask you to try to seek professional help. I don't wish you any harm (and I fear anything else I say may further harm you). I think they can help you appreciate yourself and help you reach your inner peace.

Professionals can't help me, they can't do anything to end or lessen the factors that make me unhappy. And gee, how sad that you don't wish me any harm, because you sure made me pretty damn miserable today.

There are dozens of different forms of medication. Dismissing all of them based on a very small number of them is not rational and I think you know that, even if part of you is trying very hard to stop you from acknowledging it.

It's perfectly rational. There's no "make me popular" pill, no "love potion", nothing to alter the things that make me unhappy. My perception and attitude has no influence on others, they decide to hate me no matter what attitude I show to them.

Then you need to start seriously considering the possibility that a lot of what you are convinced of, or are trying to convince yourself of, may not be the truth.

That would require me to believe in lies. Not gonna happen.

Nothing you've said is different from the things other depressed people say. None of your attempts at reasoning seem closer to being sound than theirs. Every one of them I suspect though that you don't think that every depressed person is just reacting rationally to the truth; that everyone who attempts suicide because of their depression is making the logically sound choice.

It's our choice to make. There's nothing for me to live for, this is fact, not opinion.

No one would, because it's not a rational, logical choice; it's someone's depression interfering with their thoughts. Depression which will be telling them that their hopelessness and misery is entirely logical, and which will be trying extremely hard to find anything it can use as evidence to persuade them of it.

Depression is just a way to see the harsh truth of the world. Life is unfair and cruel, and nothing can change it.

Sure, that might not be you, but you can't know that without seeing professionals about it.

I have seen professionals about it. You people are never satisfied!

I went through 3 different kinds of anti-depressants before I found one that sorta worked. Same with therapists, just cause it doesn't gel with one doesn't mean it won't with all of them.

They can't help with the real issues. Nothing they do can change that.

[TechnOkami]

The fact that you are still responding to all of our attempts at helping you is evidence that despite everything you've said and what you might say, you still want to reach a healthier state of mind. You made the first post of this thread, and you still want to be in a better place than you currently are in life. If not, keep yourself latched onto that idea, that you want to become healthier. We may not be able to help you in the ways you wish, but we are trying. There's only so much we can do across the internet on our individual keyboards. That said, there's a lot you've said that I bluntly disagree with. I'm not going to say what or refute your comments though because it's only going to give you more things to yell at, for lack of a better way to describe it. I know you have already disregarded the advice, but please, please consider setting up regular appointments with a therapist and/or setting up an antidepressant regimen with your doctor. Depression will leave you trapped in toxic thought, and its inaction only breeds more inaction. The first step in becoming healthier, regardless of your thoughts and what you say everybody thinks and how you think everybody will react and every other way you can rip my words and thoughts apart, is deciding that you want to become healthier. Technically by your presence in the thread you have already reached that step. The second and far more difficult step is actually following through on that decision. Again, we can only do so much. You, must do this. Do it for yourself, and hold it to nobody else.

[Skeppio]

The fact that you are still responding to all of our attempts at helping you is evidence that despite everything you've said and what you might say, you still want to reach a healthier state of mind. You made the first post of this thread, and you still want to be in a better place than you currently are in life. If not, keep yourself latched onto that idea, that you want to become healthier. We may not be able to help you in the ways you wish, but we are trying. There's only so much we can do across the internet on our individual keyboards. That said, there's a lot you've said that I bluntly disagree with. I'm not going to say what or refute your comments though because it's only going to give you more things to yell at, for lack of a better way to describe it. I know you have already disregarded the advice, but please, please consider setting up regular appointments with a therapist and/or setting up an antidepressant regimen with your doctor. Depression will leave you trapped in toxic thought, and its inaction only breeds more inaction. The first step in becoming healthier, regardless of your thoughts and what you say everybody thinks and how you think everybody will react and every other way you can rip my words and thoughts apart, is deciding that you want to become healthier. Technically by your presence in the thread you have already reached that step. The second and far more difficult step is actually following through on that decision. Again, we can only do so much. You, must do this. Do it for yourself, and hold it to nobody else.

It won't matter. I can never return to a healthy state of mind and no-one will ever care. No-one notices when I seem happy, people only look my way when I snap and get angry, because it fits the biased narrative everyone has that "Skep's an evil vile monster that deserves misery and pain. Don't try to be his friend, we all hate him, so should you!".
Therapists can't change that. They can possibly make me feel happy, but it won't make anyone else see me as a happy person. What's the point of trying to be happy when everyone will treat me horribly and shun me anyway? I'll just be ignored and I'll feel miserable and unwelcome all over again. I'm fated to be unwanted, people decided that before I had a chance.

[aspi]

Celebrities who doubt themselves are just greedy whiners who aren't satisfied with their millions of dollars, worldwide prestige, massive popularity, etc. Nothing but sickening whiners who'll never know what real problems are.

True. Now go ahead and compare your own life to the life of someone in a third world, war torn country who is starving and living in fear every day of their life. Who of the two is privileged now? As someone who lives in an industrialized country you have already been handed more than 90% of the world's population will ever achieve in their lifetime. And yet you still try to convince us that you're basically the most unhappy and most unlucky person on the planet. You claim that you're being rational about this. This is not rational.

Having someone in my life gives me a reason to live. Someone worth living for. Proof that there is good in the world. It would shatter my grim worldview, because I'd have evidence that it cannot be true.

No, it wouldn't. Right now you're completely incapable of accepting any such proof. We've given you plenty of evidence already and you keep dismissing it. Having someone that loves you would change nothing if you don't treat your depression as the source of your problems. And for that you need professional help.

There's no way to change my life. No-one will accept any change in me unless I completely destroy everything that makes me who I am and become someone I never wanted to be, just to please others.

And killing yourself doesn't destroy everything you are? Changing yourself isn't about pleasing others, it's about finding your self-respect and gaining perspective. Right now, your perspective is completely skewed because you can't get what you want and you're so obsessed by getting it that you can't (and don't want to) see anything else. Well, guess what? You can't always get what you want. Doesn't mean you can't find happyness in something else.

There is nothing left. Death is the only answer.

I have everything to lose by changing my life, because that's exactly what changing my life means!

It's also what killing yourself means. You are contradicting yourself.

Depression is just a way to see the harsh truth of the world.

Yes. It's just a way of seeing the world. Which means that there are other ways.

[Skeppio]

True. Now go ahead and compare your own life to the life of someone in a third world, war torn country who is starving and living in fear every day of their life. Who of the two is privileged now? As someone who lives in an industrialized country you have already been handed more than 90% of the world's population will ever achieve in their lifetime. And yet you still try to convince us that you're basically the most unhappy and most unlucky person on the planet. You claim that you're being rational about this. This is not rational.

I never said I was the worst off. I was saying that people who have a safety net so huge they need never fear the risk of failure that still find time to be depressed are not being rational. Just because I'm not living in total poverty and starvation doesn't mean I don't suffer.

No, it wouldn't. Right now you're completely incapable of accepting any such proof. We've given you plenty of evidence already and you keep dismissing it. Having someone that loves you would change nothing if you don't treat your depression as the source of your problems. And for that you need professional help.

Having someone that loves me would mean they're physically here, outside the realm of the internet. I could not deny the physical evidence in front of my very eyes. I'd have someone to live for. I'd have a purpose and a reason to go on. The source of my problems is loneliness, not depression. Depression is a by-product of my loneliness. It all comes down to loneliness.

And killing yourself doesn't destroy everything you are? Changing yourself isn't about pleasing others, it's about finding your self-respect and gaining perspective. Right now, your perspective is completely skewed because you can't get what you want and you're so obsessed by getting it that you can't (and don't want to) see anything else. Well, guess what? You can't always get what you want. Doesn't mean you can't find happyness in something else.

Killing myself frees me from the worries entirely. Changing myself is all about pleasing others. If I was able to find self-respect, I'd be perfectly happy as I am. You're asking me to change everything I am solely for the approval of others, which means getting rid of anything that makes me Skeppio.
And I can't get what I want? There's only one thing I want. Is one thing, one simple thing that everyone else takes for granted, really too much to ask of the world? If so, then I'm better off dead!

It's also what killing yourself means. You are contradicting yourself.

Killing myself means I never have to worry about such concerns again.

Yes. It's just a way of seeing the world. Which means that there are other ways.

It's the most accurate way to see my life. There's no good in it to see.

[dehro]

SKEPPIO...Until you start truthfully considering the possibility that you might be wrong and that your view of the world, yourself and your situation is horribly skewered by your depression, thereby distorting anything you claim to be logical process but is in fact no such thing, you will never gain the benefit of seeing things another way. The sad thing is that that benefit is there for the taking. You only have to accept the possibility that you might be wrong about a thing or two and the rest of the world may actually have at least a couple points.
So.. What is it that stops you from entertaining this possibility? Is it your depression? Then you must admit that taking steps towards attempting to cure that depression could chance things for you..
If it is not the depression that causes you to dismiss the possibility of being wrong.. What is it? Sheer arrogance?
Either you're depressed and this affects your thought processes and view of the world,.. But there are cures for this!!! .. Or you're not and you must find what it is that stops you from thinking you might be wrong..Because there is no doubt for anybody here that on at least a number of issues you've tackled here you are either demonstrably wrong or dealing in bad faith.

[TechnOkami]

Think of it this way Skeppio.

A Therapist is paid to care.

[-D-]

Talent means you will always be good at what you do. Practice can and will fail you. Gifted people are born to be superior beings to ungifted trash like me.

Gifted people are people that practiced and practiced every day in spite any opposition. Take anyone good at something and at some point they had to face someone that was better than them. Thing is no one remembers the kid that once managed to out play Michael Jordan. Or who was funnier than Louis CK. Because great people don't give up. They out grew those people.

I don't remember where I read this, but it's painfully true: First step towards being great, is being really bad at it.

Having someone in my life gives me a reason to live.

In my experience having someone in your life is a force multiplier. If your life is negative, they'll just make it more negative. If it's positive they'll make it better. I'm not saying you should be alone or something. I'm saying you might want to sort your life first.

Also you mentioned your mom and dad. Don't they care for you? You are living with them. That seems to indicate they care.

Why should I be proud of being an ugly 26-year old man who lives with mummy and daddy and doesn't even have his license?

Like driving's licence? I'm 27 and I don't have one either. Or is that some kind of weird work license?

Yeah, I love it when people put smiley faces everywhere when they're being patronising and insulting. As if I don't already know how smug and condescending you're being, that I apparently need a visual aid.

Well, I tried to convey I wasn't angry or anything. I try things, sometimes they work.

That's horrible! So basically the monk said "Come to me if you want help. If you're bed-ridden, or have a broken leg, or can't afford to get over to MY place, you don't deserve help". Not everyone can just get up and go to where they need. Not everyone is able to help themselves. You're basically saying that no-one should ever need help. Attitudes like that are responsible for countless suicides.

That's misinterpreting things, he said "Come to me if you want help." Even if they are bed ridden or have a broken leg or can't afford to get over to his place, they might ask others to drive them or walk if they have legs but don't have money. Either way, it requires that they first admit to themselves they have a problem and to perform a concerned effort to get help. Also IIRC correctly he was mostly focused on hikomoris which have both functioning legs, but never leave their house.

No, you don't want to come here. Australia is not a land of prosperity, it's a land of hatred, unaffordable living costs and lack of opportunity. This whole country is a laughing stock.

Pfft. Try the Balkans. It has everything you mentioned and more.

I got no delusions about Australia, but its definitely a nicer place than where I'm currently at. Although the critters here are less keen on killing you.

[aspi]

I never said I was the worst off. I was saying that people who have a safety net so huge they need never fear the risk of failure that still find time to be depressed are not being rational. Just because I'm not living in total poverty and starvation doesn't mean I don't suffer.

But you yourself have a huge safety net. Never having to worry about starving or having a roof over your head is more safety than most people will ever have. Compared to the average human being on the planet you already are privileged. There's absolutely no difference between you and someone who was born beautiful or famous or gifted when you get down to it. They have their own problems that are just as meaningless and just as important as your own. They're just as terrified of failure as you are, maybe even more so because they have more to lose.

Money can't buy you happiness. Beauty doesn't mean that people will actually love you and talent doesn't mean that you can't fail. There's no highs in life without the lows. Your problem is that depression won't let you enjoy the good parts so you get stuck on the bad.

Having someone that loves me would mean they're physically here, outside the realm of the internet. I could not deny the physical evidence in front of my very eyes. I'd have someone to live for. I'd have a purpose and a reason to go on. The source of my problems is loneliness, not depression. Depression is a by-product of my loneliness. It all comes down to loneliness.

It would not take away your doubt and your insecurity. Right now you have people in this thread who care about you, ignore your insults and are still there for you. Yet you dismiss them and claim that it's not real. There's absolutely no reason to believe that a physical presence would make any difference and that you wouldn't start doubting their sincerity as well. As long as you yourself cannot accept that you aren't worthless, you won't be able to accept that you do mean something to someone else.

Changing myself is all about pleasing others. If I was able to find self-respect, I'd be perfectly happy as I am. You're asking me to change everything I am solely for the approval of others, which means getting rid of anything that makes me Skeppio.

No. My point is that the approval and love of others doesn't matter even nearly as much as you claim. Changing yourself is about finding a way to live with yourself and being happy with what you have. You should stop making this about others. Don't rely on others for your happyness, for their approval or for their love. This is about you. You can be happy on your own. And if you can do that, then maybe you can also be happy with someone else. But don't expect a white knight to rush in and take away all your problems.

And I can't get what I want? There's only one thing I want. Is one thing, one simple thing that everyone else takes for granted, really too much to ask of the world? If so, then I'm better off dead!

Love is not a small, simple thing to ask for. And it certainly isn't something that is any easier to get if you're rich or beautiful - quite often, that makes it even harder. Many people do not take it for granted and most of those who do don't have the faintest idea what love even means. But it's also not a magical solution to everything else. Life isn't a fairytale where true love conquers all. Love is one foundation upon which you can build relationsships (often the romantic kind), but there are others that can be just as rewarding. By exluding all that and fixating on true, unconditional love you are indeed asking for a lot - more than most people ever get, even the famous and privileged ones.

Start with something smaller and keep going. That's what we all do.

[Skeppio]

SKEPPIO...Until you start truthfully considering the possibility that you might be wrong and that your view of the world, yourself and your situation is horribly skewered by your depression, thereby distorting anything you claim to be logical process but is in fact no such thing, you will never gain the benefit of seeing things another way. The sad thing is that that benefit is there for the taking. You only have to accept the possibility that you might be wrong about a thing or two and the rest of the world may actually have at least a couple points.
So.. What is it that stops you from entertaining this possibility? Is it your depression? Then you must admit that taking steps towards attempting to cure that depression could chance things for you..
If it is not the depression that causes you to dismiss the possibility of being wrong.. What is it? Sheer arrogance?
Either you're depressed and this affects your thought processes and view of the world,.. But there are cures for this!!! .. Or you're not and you must find what it is that stops you from thinking you might be wrong..Because there is no doubt for anybody here that on at least a number of issues you've tackled here you are either demonstrably wrong or dealing in bad faith.

My depression doesn't distort my worldview. It's the reality of the world that makes me so depressed. If I try and think positively, the world will savagely smash that silly hope right out of my skull.
I can't take that possibility, because like every other time I've tired it, it'll end in miser and loneliness. I've tried more times and for far longer than you've even known me, and not once has a glimmer of hope shown itself.

Think of it this way Skeppio.

A Therapist is paid to care.

No they aren't. Just like crisis support workers. I've talked to several out of desperation, and they were uncaring and uninterested. They hung up on me more on than one occasion. No job in the world is paid to care. Even carers, who's job is literally called carer, just go through the motions, talk crap about their clients and steal from the disabled and elderly. They don't care and they still get paid.

Gifted people are people that practiced and practiced every day in spite any opposition. Take anyone good at something and at some point they had to face someone that was better than them. Thing is no one remembers the kid that once managed to out play Michael Jordan. Or who was funnier than Louis CK. Because great people don't give up.

They know first step towards being great, is being really bad at it.

Gifted people are those who began on an uneven playing field rigged in their favour. They don't call it "natural talent" for nothing.
No, being bad at something is the first step to being terrible at it. You don't get good by getting bad, that's called getting bad.

In my experience having someone in your life is a force multiplier. If your life is negative, they'll just make it more negative. If it's positive they'll make it better. I'm not saying you should be alone or something. I'm saying you might want to sort your life first.

That's not how I work. Having people who care about me with me is invariably a net gain. Things like a hug or a kiss always makes my mood better, they make me feel like it's worth living another day. But I don't have anyone like that here with me, thus I don't get any of those things. I'm all alone, thus my mood will always fall back to depressed, no matter how much I try to escape it.

Pfft. Like driving's licence? I'm 27 and I don't have one either.

You must have other qualities that make people like you. I don't.

Well, I tried to convey I wasn't angry or anything. I try things, sometimes they work.

This time, it didn't.

That's misinterpreting things, he said "Come to me if you want help." Even if they are bed ridden or have a broken leg or can't afford to get over to his place, they might ask others to drive them or walk if they have legs but don't have money. Either way, it requires that they first admit to themselves they have a problem and to perform a concerned effort to get help. Also IIRC correctly he was mostly focused on hikomoris which have both functioning legs, but never leave their house.

And if they have no-one to do so? The monk just told them to go **** themselves. Not everyone has that ability or motivation, and to just dismiss anyone that doesn't come all the way to him is a horrible notion. What a terrible man.

Pfft. Try the Balkans. It has everything you mentioned and: Crushing Poverty! Xenophobia! Genocide! Homophobia! Corruption (got no money for a bribe? you go to the twenty year waiting list mother****er)! Rampant toxic Nationalism! Misogyny! Visas!

I got no delusions about Australia, but its definitely a nicer place than where I'm currently at. Although the critters here are less keen on killing you.

So I'd be likely to die a lot sooner than I am living here? Where do I sign up?!

But you yourself have a huge safety net. Never having to worry about starving or having a roof over your head is more safety than most people will ever have. Compared to the average human being on the planet you already are privileged. There's absolutely no difference between you and someone who was born beautiful or famous or gifted when you get down to it. They have their own problems that are just as meaningless and just as important as your own. They're just as terrified of failure as you are, maybe even more so because they have more to lose.

Oh right, "CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE SKEP!". Nice. I was wondering how long it'd take for someone to pull the privilege card to try and shut me up. I forgot only minorities are allowed to speak up about their problems.

Money can't buy you happiness. Beauty doesn't mean that people will actually love you and talent doesn't mean that you can't fail. There's no highs in life without the lows. Your problem is that depression won't let you enjoy the good parts so you get stuck on the bad.

Money buys you happiness and love in abundance. Beauty means people will adore you and forgive you when they'd condemn an uglier person.

It would not take away your doubt and your insecurity. Right now you have people in this thread who care about you, ignore your insults and are still there for you. Yet you dismiss them and claim that it's not real. There's absolutely no reason to believe that a physical presence would make any difference and that you wouldn't start doubting their sincerity as well. As long as you yourself cannot accept that you aren't worthless, you won't be able to accept that you do mean something to someone else.

A physical presence means all the world to me. Don't you dare tell me what I can and can't like and enjoy. Physical presence of people has a special meaning to me. A physical hug given to me is like giving someone a case full of precious jewels and gold. Every time I've been given one, it completely shattered my dark mood and made everything so much clearer and more hopeful. But it's been too long since anyone was willing to give even that to me.

No. My point is that the approval and love of others doesn't matter even nearly as much as you claim. Changing yourself is about finding a way to live with yourself and being happy with what you have. You should stop making this about others. Don't rely on others for your happyness, for their approval or for their love. This is about you. You can be happy on your own. And if you can do that, then maybe you can also be happy with someone else. But don't expect a white knight to rush in and take away all your problems.

It doesn't matter to you. I'm not you. Love of others is important to me. I don't want to die and be forgotten by everyone the moment I'm dead. I want to have people in my life who I know care and would remember me if I die. If I'm on my own, the loneliness will creep back in, despite all my efforts. It's happened so much that I'm too weak to fight it any more.

Love is not a small, simple thing to ask for. And it certainly isn't something that is any easier to get if you're rich or beautiful - quite often, that makes it even harder. Many people do not take it for granted and most of those who do don't have the faintest idea what love even means. But it's also not a magical solution to everything else. Life isn't a fairytale where true love conquers all. Love is one foundation upon which you can build relationsships (often the romantic kind), but there are others that can be just as rewarding. By exluding all that and fixating on true, unconditional love you are indeed asking for a lot - more than most people ever get, even the famous and privileged ones.

Start with something smaller and keep going. That's what we all do.

If you have money, you can buy someone's undying adoration forever. And beautiful people get love dished out to them like it's candy. And they all take it for granted, because why would they expect things to be different? They've got it made and that's all that matters. If love is that unlikely, why does everyone else have it? Everywhere I look, everyone's got somebody. And I've got no-one.

I don't know what smaller thing there is to start with.

[aspi]

Oh right, "CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE SKEP!". Nice. I was wondering how long it'd take for someone to pull the privilege card to try and shut me up. I forgot only minorities are allowed to speak up about their problems.

You're missing my point. People can be unhappy no matter how privileged, talented or lucky they are. The fact that you are incapable of seeing this is proof of your completely skewed world view where eeryone is out to get you in particular. We're all sitting in the same boat and trying to deal with life. You'd do well to see how others are doing that - and the first step towards that is to acknowledge that others do in fact have to deal with the same loneliness as you, no matter their circumstances. Rembember the quote "It's lonely at the top"? Where do you think that comes from?

A physical presence means all the world to me. Don't you dare tell me what I can and can't like and enjoy. Physical presence of people has a special meaning to me. A physical hug given to me is like giving someone a case full of precious jewels and gold. Every time I've been given one, it completely shattered my dark mood and made everything so much clearer and more hopeful. But it's been too long since anyone was willing to give even that to me.

I dare telling you that the one thing you crave is not the only thing that can ultimately make you happy. Yes.

It doesn't matter to you. I'm not you. Love of others is important to me. I don't want to die and be forgotten by everyone the moment I'm dead. I want to have people in my life who I know care and would remember me if I die. If I'm on my own, the loneliness will creep back in, despite all my efforts. It's happened so much that I'm too weak to fight it any more.

Then why would you want to kill yourself right now?

I don't know what smaller thing there is to start with.

How about a chat with someone? How about a laugh? How about making someone laught? How about a view or a place that makes you forget all this for a moment? Noone is going to just fall in love with you out of the blue. You already know that. But if you get to know new people and spend time with them, then you'll have that time, even if you don't end up with one of them.

[Skeppio]

You're missing my point. People can be unhappy no matter how privileged, talented or lucky they are. The fact that you are incapable of seeing this is proof of your completely skewed world view where eeryone is out to get you in particular. We're all sitting in the same boat and trying to deal with life. You'd do well to see how others are doing that - and the first step towards that is to acknowledge that others do in fact have to deal with the same loneliness as you, no matter their circumstances. Rembember the quote "It's lonely at the top"? Where do you think that comes from?

Nice try, a bit late to backpedal. And if everyone has to deal with the same loneliness, how come no-one else around me is lonely? How come they always have a friend or a loved one at their side, always there to prove that they are valued and loved?
That phrase comes from jealous losers who want to convince others and themselves that they don't mind the miserable squalor they live in, or the fact that they'll be forgotten the moment they die. Sometimes the grass really is greener on someone else's lawn.

I dare telling you that the one thing you crave is not the only thing that can ultimately make you happy. Yes.

So you'll gladly tell me "the one thing you want out of life will leave you just as miserable"? Cool, so there's nothing for me to live for. Okay. :)

Then why would you want to kill yourself right now?

Because I'm too sick of life to care anymore.

How about a chat with someone? How about a laugh? How about making someone laught? How about a view or a place that makes you forget all this for a moment? Noone is going to just fall in love with you out of the blue. You already know that. But if you get to know new people and spend time with them, then you'll have that time, even if you don't end up with one of them.

How do I chat? How do I make them laugh? How do I do any of that when every other human around me will look at me with disgust or grunt angrily at me should I approach them? I can't even meet new people who will treat me with anything but hostility! I've looked everywhere I can reach over and over again and I've found nothing but hostility and disinterest.
And there is no view or place that won't just make me wish I had someone with me to share the view with and talk about it.

[Mx.Silver]

I know I'm clinically depressed.

Then you know you are mentally ill.
You know that the mental illness you have causes disproportionate levels of despair, hopelessness and self-loathing. You know it leads people to experience social isolation, to sabotage themselves and attempt suicide.

Given this, do you not think it is just a little bit odd that you'd display all these symptoms, while having this condition, but that all these symptoms are entirely rational results of completely unrelated external factors and not actually stemming from you mental illness in any way?
That's one hell of coincidence, and it's what your 'my wanting to kill myself is the rational, truthful choice' line of thinking is resting on.


Incidentally, being convinced that everyone around has a very low opinion of you is also a very common symptom of depression. As are things like reading indifference as hatred, and assuming that if you have one disagreement or argument with someone, they now hate you and will no longer tolerate your presence.
I have had to struggle this these for years. Most people with depression have to struggle with these.

No, I do not. I already know I'm thinking clearly when I say I'm planning to kill myself.

I was thinking clearly when, back in my university days, I emptied a kettle of boiling water over my arm as punishment for getting three questions, that would not effect my grade in any way, wrong in a seminar group nine hours earlier that day.


That is what having a mental illness means - there will be some things that seem entirely true or rational to you that would be obviously not so for anyone else.
Once again: if someone else was in this thread saying the sort of things you have been, I highly doubt you'd be agreeing with them and telling them 'yes, you should kill yourself'. I highly doubt you'd be telling them they were being rational about it.

It's perfectly rational. There's no "make me popular" pill, no "love potion", nothing to alter the things that make me unhappy.

If you are dismissing any option that might take you some of the way towards improvement because it won't magically fix everything with a snap of the fingers, you are not being reasonable. At best it's extreme black-and-white thinking, which is not exactly rational approach to things.

You are arguing that the world is horribly unjust to you in how it denies you what you feel you need, yet when confronted with the very real possibility that your attempt to exit it could make your situation even worse, you say that you would deserve additional suffering because you're worthless.
Those two things are contradictory; you cannot with good reason believe that you don't deserve to suffer and that you deserve to suffer more.
Switching between those is not the mark of making an informed decision, it looks a lot more like trying to find a post-hoc justification for something you already believe for irrational reasons.
This is common with depression. Your depression will always be looking for more 'evidence' to justify itself with.

It's our choice to make.

But it's not a free, rational choice. It is an extreme fatal symptom of a mental illness; the product of extreme mental stress.

Again: I have tried to kill myself before. More than once. I've had friends and family attempt suicide.
I know that it feels like the sensible choice, like a rational, logical decision, but that does not mean it is the sensible choice.

Depression is just a way to see the harsh truth of the world.

I have been clinically depressed for over a decade. I have had parts of my life utterly ruined by it. I am not even remotely the only person this has happened to. And no, I have never had a security net big enough to never need to worry about failure. Neither has anyone I've known who've had depression.

It is most emphatically not "just a way to see the truth".

(and yes, I know about depressive realism - it doesn't say it's 'just another way to see the truth' either).

I could not deny the physical evidence in front of my very eyes.

You would be surprised.
It is actually quite easy to dismiss someone who is right there, telling you they care about you; to believe that they are lying, or wrong, or deluded or just don't know what they're talking about. To start putting up barriers, distancing yourself.
I've done this, often without realising I was doing it at the time. I've watched other people do this.

That is the crucial point: depression and loneliness feed off each other. Depression will makes loneliness feel worse, and will make the prospect of loneliness more certain. It will hold you back from trying to do anything that would make you less lonely.

[aspi]

So you'll gladly tell me "the one thing you want out of life will leave you just as miserable"? Cool, so there's nothing for me to live for. Okay. :)

I'll repeat myself, bolded for emphasis: I dare telling you that the one thing you crave is not the only thing that can ultimately make you happy.

Long-term happyness has nothing (and I mean absolutely nothing) to do with getting what we want short term. Humans are incredibly bad at wanting what makes them happy. You are fixating on something that makes you feel better for a moment and turning it into a solution for all your problems.

How do I chat? How do I make them laugh? How do I do any of that when every other human around me will look at me with disgust or grunt angrily at me should I approach them? I can't even meet new people who will treat me with anything but hostility!

If you truly believe this then please get professional help. This is not a rational reality and you cannot base rational decision on this.

[-D-]

No, being bad at something is the first step to being terrible at it. You don't get good by getting bad, that's called getting bad.

That's bull**** and irrational. Unless you are implying some people are born in utero with artistic gifts. And that upon their delivery they take a brush and draw Virgin Mary. Even Picasso smeared his first paper with his fist. Even Shakespear made crappy plays.

That's not how I work. Having people who care about me with me is invariably a net gain.

How about your parents? You are with them, maybe try reaching out to them. My family helped me overcome a dark period my life. I'm not saying/implying yours will, but hell, it's worth a shot.

You must have other qualities that make people like you. I don't.

Ah, that's a good one. No. I just embrace my existence as it is and make peace with it.

And if they have no-one to do so? The monk just told them to go **** themselves. Not everyone has that ability or motivation, and to just dismiss anyone that doesn't come all the way to him is a horrible notion. What a terrible man.

There is always someone you can reach out. Either pay, or ask them. Hitchiking is another option. If people don't have ability and/or can't muster motivation to pull themselves out of their downward spiral, then what chance does a stranger have?

This time, it didn't.

It's possible I'll fail. I'll beat myself more if I don't try.

Money buys you happiness and love in abundance. If you have money, you can buy someone's undying adoration forever.

Beauty means people will adore you and forgive you when they'd condemn an uglier person.

Not really. Sure you have friends that love you for your money, but they don't love you. Once money is gone, so are they. Beauty gives you a pass here and there, it comes with heaps of envy and very limited expiration timer. No one looks good at 80. Very few look good at 40.

[dehro]

My depression doesn't distort my worldview.

This is patently not true. Depression affects and distorts one's world view. It's the main thing it does. Causing people to feel hopeless and trapped in an inescapable negative cycle is precisely what it does. There's a reason it's called depression.
You may deny this evident truth all you like, in fact depression is what leads you to deny it... but that doesn't make it any less true.
Again, what makes you so sure, knowing that you suffer from depression, and I assume that you have read up on the effects and symptoms, that nothing in your view is flawed or incorrect?

[lio45]

If you have money, you can buy someone's undying adoration forever.

Okay, then... couldn't you pick that as a goal and start working towards it?

You live with your parents, it's great.

I was also living with my parents back when, right after graduating uni, I chose to spend over a year working like a madman and living an ascetic lifestyle. Then I invested those proceeds in something that paid off (while I continued to work). That was a decade ago, and I'm pretty well off now.

Wouldn't setting a goal and working hard for it help get your mind off your issues?

[lio45]

No-one will accept any change in me unless I completely destroy everything that makes me who I am and become someone I never wanted to be, just to please others. Is that what you want? Of course it is. All you people ever want is someone to completely change who they are for your approval. **** individuality, individuality means there might be people who disagree with you! People should be only what YOU want them to be, right? I have everything to lose by changing my life, because that's exactly what changing my life means!

You know, no one can get away with everything... If you're too extreme, you'll scare people off. Social skills and charisma automatically imply that you're not always going to be 100% of what you'd like to be if you could get away with it. That applies to EVERYONE.

If "being truly yourself" (whatever it means) means you can't get/keep any friends, then you have a choice to make. Either stay lonely, but at least you don't have to make ANY compromises, or else try to change a few things so that this new you -- which would still be you -- is more likeable to other human beings around you.

You are what you decide to be. If you change things, the resulting "new you" is still you. You can drastically change your hair style, it's still going to be you. If you're out of shape, you can get in better shape and it's still going to be you. If you regularly make remarks that annoy others, you should tone it down and it's still going to be you. If you have a short fuse with others, you can start working on your temper and it's still going to be you.

I don't know exactly why you're alone but you're probably aware of what you should try to work on if you wanted to change that.

[YossarianLives]

Tell us one thing Skeppio. Do you actually want help?

[Skeppio]

The worst part of realising my mistakes is having to see all the horrible things I did beforehand...

Everyone, I'm so sorry for the way I've been the past few days. I'm going to be searching for local therapists tomorrow (I have work today, so I'm unable to do it right now).
I didn't want to because I'm afraid of what people will think of me. I'm always scared of other people, that they'll laugh at me for being "inferior", or they'll attack me, even if they're family. I just don't want them to be ashamed of me or disappointed. I feel like I'm such a burden.
I'm also stressed out to hell about my job. I've been stuck trying to fix the same thing for weeks, and I've gotten nowhere. I should've told my boss ages ago, but I'm scared I'll lose my job as a result. And if I lose my job, I'm scared that my family will hate me or think I'm too stupid or lazy. I wish I had a different job, where I didn't have so much responsibility.

I'm just so scared...I just want to stay in my room where I don't have to be near any scary people forever. My nice warm room, where I can just sleep and stay out of the world that I'm so afraid of.

[Lissou]

*hugs* I hope you feel better soon. I don't think people here are upset with you. I know I'm not (although I wasn't part of the discussion anyways so I really wouldn't have any reason to be upset in the first place). I think some people may be frustrated, because we want to help but we know we can't do much.

I think a therapist will be able to help you, but going in the first place is very difficult.

I'm sorry that your job is so stressful, and that you feel like a burden. Depression can be very difficult. I'm depressed too, sometimes I just lay there and do nothing, and want to close my eyes until things stop sucking. It's usually when I need to get help the most that the prospect of even trying just makes me want to disappear and stop existing, because things are just so hard to face. On top of that you're trans, which I'm not, and I'm sure it makes things harder.

I've been reading the exchanges but I haven't talked much, because I've been trying hard to think of what to say that just wouldn't make things even worse. I know that seeking help did actually do a lot for me, and I hope it will for you too, even though it is a slow process.

You told us you feel very lonely. You also say you live with your parents. Would it be possible to seek support from them? I realise you've also said you're worried about disappointing them, and since I don't know them I don't know how they would react, but if they can support you, it would make you feel less alone during the process, and that makes a huge difference. Just knowing there are people who are there for you. I don't know your parents, but you live with them and that means they may be around, both to ask them and to support you afterwards.
Sometimes parents are the people you want to ask the least about stuff because of the fear of disappointing them, or the idea they may tell you to suck it up or something, because it would be worse coming from them. But maybe if you tell them you want to see a doctor, they could help you set up the appointment, which can be really difficult. Even after deciding to make an appointment I can delay it for ages thinking maybe if I don't do anything, things will just get better (they don't, of course). In your case, you may feel like it's pointless. I think that having someone physically present to remind you that it is not pointless would help.

If you can't ask your parents, maybe you can call a line meant for people who struggle. Sometimes hearing a voice on the phone that you know cares (they wouldn't have chosen that job if they didn't, especially since many of them volunteer) can help you too.

I wish you the best. If posting here helps you, then keep posting. That's where the thread is for. I know I would like to hear about things, if you feel up to sharing them, when there is any progress, or even when there isn't.

[HalfTangible]

The worst part of realising my mistakes is having to see all the horrible things I did beforehand...

Everyone, I'm so sorry for the way I've been the past few days. I'm going to be searching for local therapists tomorrow (I have work today, so I'm unable to do it right now).
I didn't want to because I'm afraid of what people will think of me. I'm always scared of other people, that they'll laugh at me for being "inferior", or they'll attack me, even if they're family. I just don't want them to be ashamed of me or disappointed. I feel like I'm such a burden.
I'm also stressed out to hell about my job. I've been stuck trying to fix the same thing for weeks, and I've gotten nowhere. I should've told my boss ages ago, but I'm scared I'll lose my job as a result. And if I lose my job, I'm scared that my family will hate me or think I'm too stupid or lazy. I wish I had a different job, where I didn't have so much responsibility.

I'm just so scared...I just want to stay in my room where I don't have to be near any scary people forever. My nice warm room, where I can just sleep and stay out of the world that I'm so afraid of.

You're upset. It's fine. Let out whatever you need to let out.

I'm no expert on interfacing with your boss (in fact, if this is really stupid, someone say so) but have you tried telling him you feel overwhelmed?

You could try looking for another job in your off time. Yeah, the job market isn't great right now, but it'd be a start, and if you DO get fired when you tell your boss about the problem you're having (which I find unlikely so long as there's still time to fix the problem, but then again I don't know what you do) you'll have an immediate back-up plan to get another job.

[-D-]

The worst part of realising my mistakes is having to see all the horrible things I did beforehand...

Don't stress. Learn to forgive yourself, mistakes are part of life. As the saying goes, you can't make an omelette without dropping a few eggs on the floor and having to clean them up[1].

Everyone, I'm so sorry for the way I've been the past few days. I'm going to be searching for local therapists tomorrow (I have work today, so I'm unable to do it right now)..

*INITIATE REMOTE HUGGING PROTOCOL*

[1]True story. Except there was yelling.

[RoyVG]

The worst part of realising my mistakes is having to see all the horrible things I did beforehand...

Everyone, I'm so sorry for the way I've been the past few days. I'm going to be searching for local therapists tomorrow (I have work today, so I'm unable to do it right now).
I didn't want to because I'm afraid of what people will think of me. I'm always scared of other people, that they'll laugh at me for being "inferior", or they'll attack me, even if they're family. I just don't want them to be ashamed of me or disappointed. I feel like I'm such a burden.
I'm also stressed out to hell about my job. I've been stuck trying to fix the same thing for weeks, and I've gotten nowhere. I should've told my boss ages ago, but I'm scared I'll lose my job as a result. And if I lose my job, I'm scared that my family will hate me or think I'm too stupid or lazy. I wish I had a different job, where I didn't have so much responsibility.

I'm just so scared...I just want to stay in my room where I don't have to be near any scary people forever. My nice warm room, where I can just sleep and stay out of the world that I'm so afraid of.

Now that is the best news I've heard from you.

Being afraid of what people say is natural. But asking for help is not a sign of weakness and you should never be ashamed of yourself for asking. Think of it this way, it shows you are not willing to give up on something and want to finish it, and if that means achieving something together with someone or with a group, it means you are willing to share your life with those people, even for only a minute or two. I wish you were as fortunate as many of us are to have good friends that are willing to help, but considering the amount of people that have come in and tried to help you, it shows you have more friends than you give yourself credit for .

I wish you the best and good luck on finding the help you need.

[Dire Moose]

So I just found out that the museum isn't keeping any of its summer technicians, and I'll be out of a job at the end of August.

I've applied for eight other jobs, which is all I can find in paleontology. It's a really limited field as jobs go, and since it's so competitive, I doubt any of them are going to work out and I'm pretty sure I'll just wind up moving back in with my parents until I can get another temporary position next summer. The only positions that I seem to qualify for are temporary seasonal internships designed for undergraduates working toward a master's degree, which leads me to my next point.

Getting an actual full-time permanent job in paleontology is practically impossible without a master's degree, which I cannot get due to GPA issues. I'm not sure entirely what my GPA is since I finished two degrees, one with a 3.17 and one with a 2.972. However, the latter is closer to the truth since it includes some transfer credits from the former, and since most graduate schools calculate GPA using the most recent years and my best years were the earliest ones, even a 2.972 is probably better than what they'll calculate. Every school I've looked at has a 3.0 minimum GPA as a requirement to get into their program, which means I'll need to be at least a few points above that to compete. Even if I go back to school full time (which I can't due to lack of money), I will probably need around a full year of really high grades to undo the damage. I have heard that there are universities abroad that do not use a GPA system, but I doubt they'd let me in after looking at my grades either. And experience isn't likely to offset it as it isn't the same as academic credit from an administrative bureaucracy's perspective. So it would appear that getting a master's degree is never going to be a possibility.

I can't switch to another field either; although my two degrees in biology and geology would appear to give me a wide range of possibilities, all of my coursework and practical experience is geared toward paleontology. I submitted at least 50 different job applications to environmental consulting firms, oil companies, and the like over the last year, but none of them even called me back.

So I really have no idea what to do from here. My experience has apparently trapped me in a field I cannot possibly hope to succeed in thanks to my screwing myself over in school.

[Skeppio]

So I asked a healthcare clinic in my town about referrals to a therapist, and I got a name and number for their staff that handles it, so now I'm just waiting for a call back (the line was busy D:). Hopefully they can help me further.

[Lissou]

Skeppio: that's great!

Moose...that's a difficult situation. I don't really know how Canada's education system works well enough to be of any help here. However, if you wanted to switch careers, there are some places that offer online courses, and others that don't require diplomas at all, just experience, so maybe you could look into that. If you're actually considering studying abroad, I believe some places just do a placement test, which you may do well on regardless of previous grades. I wish you the best either way.

[Dire Moose]

I should mention that I only moved to Canada around the end of April and have spent most of my life in the USA. I will almost certainly be returning there when my job ends in August, as my work visa only lasts as long as I'm employed.

I wish I didn't have to return though. I get along with people much better up here, and people are less rude and obnoxious in general.

[Skeppio]

I should mention that I only moved to Canada around the end of April and have spent most of my life in the USA. I will almost certainly be returning there when my job ends in August, as my work visa only lasts as long as I'm employed.

They don't give you any leeway period to find another job? :c

[Dire Moose]

Unfortunately, they do not. My contract ends August 31st, and thus the customs officials said I had to leave by September 1st.