Worldbuilding Talk Thread

[Yora]

I am currently considering the options to make humans and elves two closely related species like neanderthals and homo sapiens.

So far, my elves are not particularly elven to begin with. I've dialed their normal life expectancy down to 300 years and they have no innate magic. They are also the only two races that can interbreed, other than spirits, which are not really humanoids or even mortal. Humans are sturdier while elves live longer, and the main advantage elves have is that they got agriculture, writing, and metalworking 3,000 years earlier. Humans are not simply tougher, but they also have all the adaptation for running long distances on hot days, while elves have this trait only much less developed. (When need to, a 10 year old human can outrun veteran elven hunters given enough of a head start.)
I had planned on three main ethnic groups of humans, but one of them is very different in looks to the other two and also lives in a very different region, so I think of actually treating them as a separate race too. Their way of living is basically polynesian and they have dark brown skin and straight, earth-brown hair, while the other two groups are more Slavic and central Asian.

Do you have any ideas how I might emphasise these three races as being closely related but clearly different (each having multple ethnic groups)? And what could I do with the "Islanders" to make them more a different homind subrace rather than just "humans #2"?

And any other thoughts how this might affect things in general?

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I had planned on three main ethnic groups of humans, but one of them is very different in looks to the other two and also lives in a very different region, so I think of actually treating them as a separate race too. Their way of living is basically polynesian and they have dark brown skin and straight, earth-brown hair, while the other two groups are more Slavic and central Asian.

Do you have any ideas how I might emphasise these three races as being closely related but clearly different (each having multple ethnic groups)? And what could I do with the "Islanders" to make them more a different homind subrace rather than just "humans #2"?

And any other thoughts how this might affect things in general?

Hmmm. In my current setting (incomplete handbook here), I based three human groups off of Slavic, Central Asian, and Afro-Arabian lines. The situation being somewhat similar, this is how I dealt with differences. With the Slavic-derived humans, I thought of Eastern Europe/Eurasia. Or, the stereotypes thereof. So, as one person advised me: Don't go into the forests, there are monsters that will eat you. Don't swim in large bodies of water; you'll be eaten. The monsters in the forest are bad, the nobles who rule you are usually worse. You can hate them, so long as you smile to their faces, but there is little point. You don't have to hate Cossacks, but it helps. The best thing you can do is go out and chop down trees in the forest. It destroys the forests that will eat you, and you can use the wood to either build a fire or a coffin. Anything to keep your mind off of how bleak and F***ing miserable every second of your life is and how much you hate everyone and everything that isn't you.

I drew on a more "Steppe Rider" theme for Central Asian humans. They were lovers of horses and swift flowing rivers (which lead them to lootable cities). They honor the dead and gives offerings to the Spirits, but don't particularly care for anyone else's deities so long as the tribute keeps flowing. Whereas a Veloskan noble would demand an honorable duel, a "Vednyek" Horsemaster would rather avoid a fair fight. It gets less people (particularly yourself) killed, and seriously what kind of an idiot fights that way? Pragmatism wins out for these people.

Finally, I had as I said an Afro-Arabic themed islander nation. I essentially based them off a combination of the two biggest hero types I knew about: Sinbad the Sailor, and Mansa Musa. Which told me they were extraordinarily brave and clever adventurers, while also being quite wealthy/successful merchants. From there, they've grown into a sort of laizes-faire merchant/pirate caliphate.

With your Polynesia theme, I would go back to the roots of their culture/broad strokes/stereotypes. I know Polynesians are magnificent sailors, and that at one time their "Empire" covered more territory than any in history (sure most of it was ocean but whatever). Hawaiians can be seen as a race of people who worship Fire, but live beside Water. In a sailing game I ran once, Half Orcs were Polynesian. They lived in volcanoes, their Paladins and Clerics were Fire themed, and they sailed monumental distances on huge outrigger boats, with some riding surfboards as "fighter craft" during pirating raids. There's also the engineering aspect brought to us by the Easter Island stone heads.

A common theme I see here is an emphasis on Faces, and the Fire/Water dichotomy. I've also heard some Polynesian myths deal with the Children of the Sea, who are apparently 2spooky4me, as my worldbuilding buddies have said.

That all being said, connecting the two Human groups while excluding the third into its own race is an interesting thought. Perhaps the two Human groups could be identified by roughly similar skin and hair color ranges? If you wanted a cultural connection, you could also give them some sort of religion to connect them. I would go for Horses, as a general theme myself. Horse Gods, or Spirits. Like Rohan, but up to 11. The Polynesian group would need something to differentiate themselves physically from baseline humans. Perhaps you could have them resemble the Polynesian Tiki masks? Somewhat monstrous, passionate...wooden? You could make them similar to the Flamekin from MTG?

Spoiler: Flamekin

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[BootStrapTommy]

Any time I read a new campaign setting, I am always disappointed if the setting has over a hundred towns but it's history seems to go back 6 months.

I'm something of a student of Tolkien in this regard. 10 millennia of history, if I were able.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I'm something of a student of Tolkien in this regard. 10 millennia of history, if I were able.

Eh. I always feel that if your timeline could encompass all of real recorded human history and technology is still Medieval, there' something wrong.

[BootStrapTommy]

Eh. I always feel that if your timeline could encompass all of real recorded human history and technology is still Medieval, there' something wrong.

Homo sapien has been a distinct species for over 200 millenia. We've only advanced to the point we are largely in the time frame of the last two centuries, or 0.001 percent.

And we've had the benefit of not being under threat of violent magical cataclysms and pantheons of temperamental deities duking it out. Unless you're one of the religious folks.

My campaign setting, however, might have about 2 millienia under its belt. Which means my guys are ahead of the curve.

In a sailing game I ran once, Half Orcs were Polynesian.

Morbidly aware of my privileged and subconsciously trained by racebaiting dialogue, I always find this kinda thing makes me flinch. I even did it when I made my Orcs Berber/Bedouin.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Morbidly aware of my privileged and subconsciously trained by racebaiting dialogue, I always find this kinda thing makes me flinch. I even did it when I made my Orcs Berber/Bedouin.

I've learned not to care. I've had settings where Elves were European, or Orcs were American (industrial revolution ho!), or where any MM race was vaguely related to a RL culture as a matter of name generation, getting my players to visualize what things look like, or just because there was some sort of mental connection made in the generation of said group.

Every fantasy writer has done it, and there's nothing wrong with it if there's no malice intended.

[BootStrapTommy]

I've learned not to care. I've had settings where Elves were European, or Orcs were American (industrial revolution ho!), or where any MM race was vaguely related to a RL culture as a matter of name generation, getting my players to visualize what things look like, or just because there was some sort of mental connection made in the generation of said group.

Every fantasy writer has done it, and there's nothing wrong with it if there's no malice intended.

I have no malice either. But racebaiters have malice, and the implied threat of being called a racist looms overhead, much to my annoyance. It's hard to shut off.

It's a problem I've had to tackle with my campaign setting, since the "Lands of Endless Summer" are basically "Take Africa and add Mesoamerica".

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I have no malice either. But racebaiters have malice, and the implied threat of being called a racist looms overhead, much to my annoyance. It's hard to shut off.

It's a problem I've had to tackle with my campaign setting, since the "Lands of Endless Summer" are basically "Take Africa and add Mesoamerica".

But that sounds cool. Anyone who gets angry about someone making cool things is a bad person, by definition. Well, someone's definition. Mine, mostly. Which is correct.

Then again, I am an impossibly violent person, liable to destroy any puny mortal who accuses me of such things. Best to ignore the opinions of others in cases outside of, like, personal hygiene and such things unless you specifically asked for input. If someone accuses you of being a racist, it's most likely their own issues causing them to declare Badwrongfun. So gently explain to them your intentions and ask them to elaborate on theirs. Compromise, but never doubt your own intentions and never countenance the stupid.

And then set them on fire. It builds character. Not sure for who. Oh well.

I have had a worldbuilding thought I seek help on:

Okay, so imagine a "standard fantasy setting"* where we have all the various pseudo medieval kingdoms and knight errants, wizard towers and dragon hoards, sneaky rogues and ugly orcs, the whole nine yards. And then, someone lost a bet. Don't know who, but someone apparently had a hand that couldn't possibly lose, and then did. And that's when the sun disappeared. It wasn't too apocalyptic, since the Gods tried to cobble together a B-Sun. They ended up with two dim ones though. Just enough to provide light, even if the stars can be seen in daylight now, and just enough warmth so that the world is in perpetual winter. Humans have had to bunk with Dwarves in their underground kingdoms, becoming a secondary citizen class, while the other races either died out, or went to extreme measures to survive. The "modern" period is roughly analogous to late 19th century and early 20th century Europe. The Dwarves and Humans are trying to reclaim part of the frozen surface world, partly for resources, and partly to screw over the technologically advanced Orcs who threaten their various existence.

I'd like a High Magic, High Tech, Wild West meets WWII high adventure swashbuckling adventure game. Except for one issue: How do these people feed themselves? What are some good ways for a world whose climate is stuck on "Greenland" to keep a decent population fed and productive?

As Yatzhee Croshaw said, "It's incredibly sad that "Standard Fantasy" is an actual term at all."

[BootStrapTommy]

But that sounds cool. Anyone who gets angry about someone making cool things is a bad person, by definition. Well, someone's definition. Mine, mostly. Which is correct.

Then again, I am an impossibly violent person, liable to destroy any puny mortal who accuses me of such things. Best to ignore the opinions of others in cases outside of, like, personal hygiene and such things unless you specifically asked for input. If someone accuses you of being a racist, it's most likely their own issues causing them to declare Badwrongfun. So gently explain to them your intentions and ask them to elaborate on theirs. Compromise, but never doubt your own intentions and never countenance the stupid.

And then set them on fire. It builds character. Not sure for who. Oh well.

I have had a worldbuilding thought I seek help on:

Okay, so imagine a "standard fantasy setting"* where we have all the various pseudo medieval kingdoms and knight errants, wizard towers and dragon hoards, sneaky rogues and ugly orcs, the whole nine yards. And then, someone lost a bet. Don't know who, but someone apparently had a hand that couldn't possibly lose, and then did. And that's when the sun disappeared. It wasn't too apocalyptic, since the Gods tried to cobble together a B-Sun. They ended up with two dim ones though. Just enough to provide light, even if the stars can be seen in daylight now, and just enough warmth so that the world is in perpetual winter. Humans have had to bunk with Dwarves in their underground kingdoms, becoming a secondary citizen class, while the other races either died out, or went to extreme measures to survive. The "modern" period is roughly analogous to late 19th century and early 20th century Europe. The Dwarves and Humans are trying to reclaim part of the frozen surface world, partly for resources, and partly to screw over the technologically advanced Orcs who threaten their various existence.

I'd like a High Magic, High Tech, Wild West meets WWII high adventure swashbuckling adventure game. Except for one issue: How do these people feed themselves? What are some good ways for a world whose climate is stuck on "Greenland" to keep a decent population fed and productive?

As Yatzhee Croshaw said, "It's incredibly sad that "Standard Fantasy" is an actual term at all."

Well people live on Greenland. So if the whole weather was like Greenland, ask the Greenlanders. Or check a wiki on it.

I'd say farm hay for sheep. Go whaling. Club baby seals. Fish. Many berries or fruits with quick growing seasons?

Mushrooms and stuff that grow underground, where the Dwarves live?

[Yora]

Do you have any ideas how I might emphasise these three races as being closely related but clearly different (each having multple ethnic groups)? And what could I do with the "Islanders" to make them more a different homind subrace rather than just "humans #2"?

I just remembered that there was a population of homo heidelbergensis, the ancestor of homo sapiens and neanderthals, that often grew 7 feet tall and bigger. It seems most likely that this was largely a result of extraordinary nutrition and few diseases in that specific area and the species was only slightly bigger than neanderthals in most other regions. But it could still be a cool template for a third humanoid fantasy race. Humans have long endurance, elves long lives, and the third type is a good deal bigger than the other two.
I also like this reconstruction.

[avr]

Greenland climate, high magic AND high tech ... Can magic or tech create food directly?

If they can't, one or the other should be able to make huge glasshouses, possibly with mirrors or lenses or something to concentrate sunlight.

If there are herds of reindeer out there on the tundra which has replaced the former lands people might hunt or herd them. Wooly mammoths too. Big creatures have it easier keeping warm and will be more efficient.

These would have to have been preserved or reintroduced by magic though, when normal farming stopped working people would have hunted the animals to extinction. There would have been a population crash until enough people were killed off for the newly reduced carrying capacity of the land to support them.

[Maglubiyet]

Do you have any ideas how I might emphasise these three races as being closely related but clearly different (each having multple ethnic groups)? And what could I do with the "Islanders" to make them more a different homind subrace rather than just "humans #2"?

And any other thoughts how this might affect things in general?

Give each of the three "races" a unique name to establish separate identities, other than descriptive things like Islanders and Nomads. Then group them under the races of men or human clan.

Just remember though, pre-20th century even scientists thought of humans as different races and referred to them as such. In D&D, races take the place of ethnic groups. The fact that many of them can interbreed implies that they are, in fact, a single species with minor regional variations.

[Yora]

That is indeed a good point. Without DNA analysis, people 200 years ago whould probably have considered Neanderthals "white", while seeing "blacks" as a different race.
A lizardman is obviously more different from humans than an elf is, but the concept of multiple human species really wouldn't make much sense in a fantasy setting. Oh well, I think I'll keep the islanders as very tall and muscular with thick beards anyway. I like that look.

[Xuc Xac]

200 years ago, Irish people weren't even considered white. What chance would neanderthals have?

[CU Rigel]

I've recently tryed an interesting approach to creating a world- I'm curious what other peoples opinions are.
I started a game of hot seat Civ V and played all the factions myself. I tried to create a national character for each civ (independent of the historical nation) and follow that, but otherwise just go with the flow and see what happens. At some point, around whatever tech level I'm aiming for, I stop playing and start brainstorming a setting out of the geography, people, religions, and history I've created. There are a few advantages to this (and a few disadvantages) that I can see.
I end up with a huge history of events: wars, prophets, great monuments, alliances, trade deals, discoveries, etc... Of course I don't need to write all that history down for an actual setting, but having that information in my head gives me a wealth of ideas to draw from for events that are worth recording. Also, if I'm running a game in the setting myself, it means I have answers for every obscure historical question pretty easily. I also find that the nature of playing a game with win conditions and consequences creates situations with a lot of conflict and competition- which makes for good hooks later.
On the downsides though, well, civ isn't fantasy, so the fantastical elements of the setting need to be added after. It also has a lot of constraints that don't necessarily exist when building a setting normally (for instance, any culture that doesn't fall into the nation-state category is not well represented). It can also be temping to just go with what happened in the game for every event, rather than thinking about how they could be adapted to make for the most interesting setting.
All in all I think its a fun and useful tool, and with some caveats and cautions to be aware of it can make for a detailed base to build a setting on.

[BootStrapTommy]

^This is wonderful.

Civ II and IV have available fantasy settings. Never played the first, but never understood by fantasy scenarios aren't in III or V.
I might have a go at this, but with Civ IV.

[CU Rigel]

^This is wondewrful.

Civ II and IV have available fantasy settings. Never played the first, but never understood by fantasy scenarios aren't in III or V.
I might have a go at this, but with Civ IV.

Interesting, I didn't know about the fantasy settings for II and IV. Maybe I'll look into it. The main reason I stick to V is the customizable religions. I find it's a lot of fun and encourages me to come up with some creative things.

[Eldan]

It's an interesting idea. Though I think I wouldn't use fantasy settings for it ,I'd rather run a game with generic nations, then rewrite them into fantasy nations I like.

[BootStrapTommy]

Interesting, I didn't know about the fantasy settings for II and IV. Maybe I'll look into it. The main reason I stick to V is the customizable religions. I find it's a lot of fun and encourages me to come up with some creative things.

Civ II Test of Time has a Midgardish campaign with multiply map layers (Underworld, Overworld, Skyworld).

Civ IV's Beyond the Sword has a fantasy campaign where the God of Winter has taken over. And it's got the play mode where you start as one faction, then switch to another after a certain number of turns, etc. You can even have the game play itself.

In Civ III, the campaign editor is easy peasy. Thus you could design the world, stat out cultures and units, set starting locations and see how it turns out

[Milo v3]

And now I really want to go back to Civ 3 and use the editor for a fantasy setting....

EDIT: And now I'm really annoyed that my brother has now lost my copy of Civ 3

[BootStrapTommy]

Rhune in my campaign setting may or may not have been custom inserted into numerous Civ III scenarios I've played.

[Yora]

I am finally getting this place name thing tackled. It pretty much forced all writing to a stop and I really hate dealing with it. The names of couse all sound stupid and made up, but giving everything an english name wouldn't make any sense in the setting. Probably not helped by the fact that I base most of them on cities from Finland, Russia, Mongolia, Indonesia, and Cambodia. I tried Ireland but then you end up with things that nobody can pronounce. Don't even try Hungary...
Only six cities left and they are all elven, which should be easy as I want to name them after places in Sweden. Though I am somewhat afraid they'll sound completely out of place, seeming so "normal". (At least to me.)

I really hope that akwardness goes away after using the names for a week or two. And that they are not actually stupid sounding. I don't use apostrophes and no X, Y, and Z, so I am probably already clear of the worst possible attrocities.

While apostrophes are totally overused, I think hypens are looking really cool, though. Since they are used so little, they are looking really unusual without looking silly.

However, I still have about a dozen forests and mountains to name...

[zabbarot]

I'm brewing up a quick world for a mostly dungeon focused game. Since I'm basically looting the corpse of a setting I wrote up in college the majority of the work is done, but I'm using GURPS for this game and the setting was originally for DnD.

So what races should I use? I could go with the DnD standards since they're statted for GURPS already, but I would like to whip up a few real quick since races in GURPS are just like 5-15pt templates. What kinds of things do players like to be? I am fine with fluffing up races out of mechanical abilities people suggest as well.

Spoiler: General world description

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The world has an equatorial desert and a north and south ocean. Basically the whole thing is just a bit warmer than earth. So only the poles really get cold. basically it's desert, then savannah 'til you reach the ocean. Then a bunch of tropical islands going north(or south) The biggest islands might be Ireland-ish sized.

Tech level will be sort of Renaissance with low magic.

tl;dr: What races(or mechanics) are cool from players standpoint?

[Yora]

Cool races are generally those that have an interesting presence within the setting. If the players don't really know much about the setting yet there isn't anything particularly interesting about any race. Elf, dwarf, and halfling are often popular because their culture and role will be pretty similar in most settings, so players who like them in one setting are probably going to like them in most other settings too.

But humans with an interesting culture will always be more attractive than some weird creature players don't really know much about.

[Grinner]

But humans with an interesting culture will always be more attractive than some weird creature players don't really know much about.

To springboard off this, if non-human races are a thing, it might be wise to think about how their biology works, since that will affect their perceptions of the world. Their perceptions will in turn affect their psychology, to some degree, and that will affect their sociological tendencies, again to some degree.

Elves, by Tolkien-esque convention, live long lives. When they decide to fight, they're putting a bit more on the line than any human. Consequently, they might be more hesitant to resort to violence. If present, the idea of a "revolving-door afterlife" kinda puts a hole in that, but that's another story.

[zabbarot]

Well right now the world is a blank slate. So presence within the game world can all be built up. I'm just fishing for general ideas, tropes even, to build the races out of.

Non-humans will definitely be a thing, but I admit I'm going to go a bit light on sociology and ecology. About as far as I'm going to go will be to look at how they are mechanically different from humans and find a slot to stick them in based on that.

The setting is low-magic, so no revolving door after life. Probably no resurrection period without significant effort, and that would pretty much make it a plot goal.


Edit: Actually to rephrase, I'm looking for ideas on the biology as a starting point.

[Yora]

Something with great stamina and strength could be interesting, but it would depend on the kind of stories the players will find themselves in. In my setting the nonhuman races are basically elves, lizardmen, beastmen, goblins, who all really don't do well with walking long distances. Elves at least have a similar build to humans that allows them to walk almost as efficiently, but just don't have the stamina to keep up for long. Goblins have short legs and beastmen and lizardmen are terrible at temperature regulation and need a lot of long breaks. As a result, even an out of shape human with poor supplies can outrun most pursuers over long distances. And in turn it also means that it's impossible for anyone else to outrun human hunters if they got your trail. It's their super power.
In city and dungeon adventures it wouldn't really matter, though.

Being able to stay long times underwater also can be interesting, but again it depends a great deal on the places they players get to visit. If they swim with the current, the lizardmen I have can hold their breath freakishly long by more or less drifting.

Climbing and jumping becomes interesting if the race is really good at them. In a game like D&D something like a +4 bonus or the like. My beastmen climb like goats, which gives them a huge advantage in the mountains.

The goblins I have can't see in total darkness and have only very limited infrared vision, but their hearing is sharp enough to get a feeling for nearby walls and pit from the sound of their steps being reflected of the walls. They can't see them, but have a very good instinct not to run into them. (It's a skill even normal blind people can train to amazingly high precision.)

I think the important part is that these abilities really make a big difference, not just a little one. A +1 here and there won't be noticed. Make it so that even an untrained character can do things normal humans can't.

[Grinner]

Edit: Actually to rephrase, I'm looking for ideas on the biology as a starting point.

• empathic networking
• cuttlefish-like camouflage
• poisonous barbs
• infravision
• wings + hollow bones (probably small in stature)
• electricity immunity

[BootStrapTommy]

The goblins I have can't see in total darkness and have only very limited infrared vision, but their hearing is sharp enough to get a feeling for nearby walls and pit from the sound of their steps being reflected of the walls. They can't see them, but have a very good instinct not to run into them. (It's a skill even normal blind people can train to amazingly high precision.)

I hate to do that thing where I stick my science in your fantasy, but the very nature of electromagnetic radiation makes the concept of "total darkness" for races which can see outside the visible light spectrum hazy at best.

Most living things theoretically emit infrared. Meaning the goblins themselves would function like their own dim torches.

[Hytheter]

I hate to do that thing where I stick my science in your fantasy, but the very nature of electromagnetic radiation makes the concept of "total darkness" for races which can see outside the visible light spectrum hazy at best.

Most living things theoretically emit infrared. Meaning the goblins themselves would function like their own dim torches.

Well he did describe the infrared vision as "very limited". It might be just good enough to gauge the position of other warm bodies, but not advanced enough to make out any meaningful details of the environment. "Total darkness" for them might just mean a dim infrared blur instead of deep black, which is no more helpful for navigation. Like if a human in a cave had a torch, but not their glasses.