Why is V constantly benched?

[ithildur]

Someone seems like they're really determined to tell the world how much they dislike the murderous bastardly character(s) and why they're right to do so.

I think that's been abundantly conveyed; let's move on.

[Imgran]

(V scrying to madness during the split the party period was probably more to find Haley and be sure she was safe than for Roy's sake or Belkar) to some degree.

That, and V was desperate to validate his magic and use her magic to get a win. His spellcasting was effective in Azure City, but in the end she was one wizard, and the troops depending on him were quickly overwhelmed once her magic wore out. That's what the scene with the trance was about. He was feeling guilty about the fact that people died because her magic wasn't sufficient to carry the sector against what Redcloak could throw at them and the fact he did a lot of good before she had to retreat is something more mature people than Vaarsuvius lack the experience to really internalize after a major defeat.

[Chantelune]

Of course, there's no arguing that V is extremely competitive, which end up leading her to make that deal with the IFCC instead of following that back-up plan (which wasn't her idea).

This is actually her greatest weakness. But hey, she's working on it, as shown by the fact she didn't let Z's "kobold win, not you" bother her enough to make it an effective taunt.

[Psyren]

Sorry, Psyren, I didn't think you wanted the full block quote. And thanks Lilet for reminding me. The relevant bit of commentary begins on the page facing strip 412...

Spoiler

Show

"I then [after clearly establishing each character's location] made certain to isolate characters who could change the intended outcome of events [of the Battle of Azure City] away from the action - and I needed to establish that I had done so before the events in question transpired. That's why the war was by far the most well-planned story I have yet written for OOTS, with full scripts prepared for almost the entire war before it began.

"One of the prime offenders in this area was Vaarsuvius. The unfortunate truth is that a high-level D&D wizard is enormously powerful and can manage effects that would have nullified most of the plot twists I had planned. A wizard could have blasted Xykon from afar or given Roy a flying spell (or at least a feather fall), all of which would have derailed my planned death scene. If I had created the physics of the OOTS world from scratch, I would have simply not given Vaarsuvius any capabilities that could interfere with the plot, but one of the great writing obstacles I face is that it is the game rules that set the boundaries of my characters' power. My readers know what a wizard of V's level should be able to pull off, and when he/she fails to display such powers in a do-or-die situation, they (rightly) cry foul. And so I wanted V out of the way of the others. I still wanted him/her to get the chance to unleash his/her magic on the battlefield to full effect - just, you know, over there. The opening salvo (the titanium elementals) therefore effectively separates V from the rest of the party, and they remain apart for the rest of the battle."

Whether the objective that a character that is separated from the group for the sake of preserving the plot still gets to affect the story in some way has been preserved is, in my view, debatable.

Thanks a ton for quoting this.

Though come to think of it - it looks like V didn't prepare Fly that day anyway, so it's not like he would have been able to save Roy regardless.

I can see where Durkon would prevent less story problems - not because his magic is less powerful (though in some ways it is), but because regardless of what he prepares that day, the Giant can simply have him burn it off for additional healing by making the Order take additional damage. So Durkon ends up avoiding all the sticky "why didn't he prepare X?" questions that V runs into. And even though he can't spontaneously heal anymore, now Durkon needs to prepare healing spells manually, which again is a great narrative dial to tweak his power.

So I can see where V runs into trouble. Hell, V even knows Polymorph, but we have yet to see him use it in a fight despite its strength. Polymorphing into something nasty could have helped him take on Z for instance, given that Z prepared his complement to weather magical assaults but not physical attacks.

It is unfortunate, but I maintain that the benefits of using a predefined magic system can outweigh these drawbacks - the Giant doesn't have to explain that counterspells exist for instance, or magic can be dispelled, or that it can't be used while bound and gagged etc.

[Liliet]

Of course, there's no arguing that V is extremely competitive, which end up leading her to make that deal with the IFCC instead of following that back-up plan (which wasn't her idea).

This is actually her greatest weakness. But hey, she's working on it, as shown by the fact she didn't let Z's "kobold win, not you" bother her enough to make it an effective taunt.

That back-up plan... it was ridiculous. Had V had half a minute to dwell on it, ve would have realised it. Even without knowing that Resurrection takes ten minutes (by that time vir family would be long dead), there's no way Qarr would have gone along with that. V didn't have the luxury to even dwell on it, ve made the only possible decision that could save vir family. And I would not say for sure that pride was the only reason V had at the moment.

Thanks a ton for quoting this.

Though come to think of it - it looks like V didn't prepare Fly that day anyway, so it's not like he would have been able to save Roy regardless.

I can see where Durkon would prevent less story problems - not because his magic is less powerful (though in some ways it is), but because regardless of what he prepares that day, the Giant can simply have him burn it off for additional healing by making the Order take additional damage. So Durkon ends up avoiding all the sticky "why didn't he prepare X?" questions that V runs into. And even though he can't spontaneously heal anymore, now Durkon needs to prepare healing spells manually, which again is a great narrative dial to tweak his power.

So I can see where V runs into trouble. Hell, V even knows Polymorph, but we have yet to see him use it in a fight despite its strength. Polymorphing into something nasty could have helped him take on Z for instance, given that Z prepared his complement to weather magical assaults but not physical attacks.

It is unfortunate, but I maintain that the benefits of using a predefined magic system can outweigh these drawbacks - the Giant doesn't have to explain that counterspells exist for instance, or magic can be dispelled, or that it can't be used while bound and gagged etc.

No comic writer ever has to explain it. No matter how unique his magic system is, if he's half good at what he does he can just draw it and describe it with appropriate character dialog without disctracting from the story. At least, that's my experience with reading fantasy comics.

Also, I started my first ever DnD game with a homebrew setting, because I felt it was easier, less restrictive and required less work than using a pre-existing one (=

[TRH]

That back-up plan... it was ridiculous. Had V had half a minute to dwell on it, ve would have realised it. Even without knowing that Resurrection takes ten minutes (by that time vir family would be long dead), there's no way Qarr would have gone along with that. V didn't have the luxury to even dwell on it, ve made the only possible decision that could save vir family. And I would not say for sure that pride was the only reason V had at the moment.

The sad thing is, the backup plan would have worked if V had had Reduce Person prepared. There's no particular reason she would have had that, of course, but it's just something that occurred to me a while back.

[Liliet]

The sad thing is, the backup plan would have worked if V had had Reduce Person prepared. There's no particular reason she would have had that, of course, but it's just something that occurred to me a while back.

I guess, had V had that spell, ve wouldn't call IFCC in the first place.

[Kish]

The sad thing is, the backup plan would have worked if V had had Reduce Person prepared. There's no particular reason she would have had that, of course, but it's just something that occurred to me a while back.

It would not have; Qarr said 50 pounds of unliving material. Vaarsuvius could shrink to the size of an ant; Qarr would still not be able to bring her/him along while teleporting.

[Psyren]

That back-up plan... it was ridiculous. Had V had half a minute to dwell on it, ve would have realised it. Even without knowing that Resurrection takes ten minutes (by that time vir family would be long dead), there's no way Qarr would have gone along with that. V didn't have the luxury to even dwell on it, ve made the only possible decision that could save vir family. And I would not say for sure that pride was the only reason V had at the moment.

Maybe not - but thanks to their manipulation, it was the uppermost thought in V's mind. Which was the whole point of even mentioning it.

Remember, they didn't care whether or not they could actually change his alignment because of it - his soul was the "free soup-or-salad."

No comic writer ever has to explain it. No matter how unique his magic system is, if he's half good at what he does he can just draw it and describe it with appropriate character dialog without disctracting from the story. At least, that's my experience with reading fantasy comics.

It's certainly possible to establish the rules smoothly, but that doesn't change the fact that they need to be established. With OotS, the Giant has all kinds of advantages from using an existing ruleset. For instance, he can show that Redcloak is capable of this and this with only a couple panels' worth of explanation and no suspension of disbelief.

[Chantelune]

The overall issue with getting V out of the way is that it needs to be done in different way to avoid it getting frustrating when it's always the same pattern over and over again.

That quote from the Giant regarding the battle of Azure City is interesting in that regard as it didn't felt like V was kept out of the way, but that she could be efficient by herself and thus didn't need to regroup with the party and provide help where she was. I prefer that to cruder ways that could be used as well.

One example that come to mind is the TV show Smallville, were Clark Kent needed to save people that couldn't be allowed to witness his power. As a result, his friends kept being knocked up on the head so they could be unconscious during the big fight almost every single time. It's a wonder none of them ended up with a concusion or any form of trauma.

[Liliet]

Maybe not - but thanks to their manipulation, it was the uppermost thought in V's mind. Which was the whole point of even mentioning it.

Remember, they didn't care whether or not they could actually change his alignment because of it - his soul was the "free soup-or-salad."

That's why I feel so sorry for V - ve thinks ve is worse person than ve actually is because of this little trick.

It's certainly possible to establish the rules smoothly, but that doesn't change the fact that they need to be established. With OotS, the Giant has all kinds of advantages from using an existing ruleset. For instance, he can show that Redcloak is capable of this and this with only a couple panels' worth of explanation and no suspension of disbelief.

Pffft. Have you read this comic? It took one page to establish that a guy has a gun that can transform him into a girl. One hilarious page. Without any explanation. Because there's not a system a writer has to conform to (yet), and therefore he's under no obligation to explain anything.

Ok, I have picked a wrong comic, it's usually pretty heavy on magic rules exposition. How about this one? All sorts of weird stuff happens, and only explanation you can expect to be provided is who did this and for what personal reason. No magic rules established at all.

See also this and this. No rules established at all, and it runs pretty smoothly - and is all the more exciting, because we never know what can happen next page.

[snikrept]

At least these methods of hobbling V are more interesting than the usual method used by DMs: namely steal the wizard's spellbook !

[Psyren]

One example that come to mind is the TV show Smallville, were Clark Kent needed to save people that couldn't be allowed to witness his power. As a result, his friends kept being knocked up on the head so they could be unconscious during the big fight almost every single time. It's a wonder none of them ended up with a concusion or any form of trauma.

As the Giant mentioned, Superman is a common problem

But IIRC, other shows have done the "hide my powers from my friends" thing - Jem would constantly lock her boyfriend in the closet or something so she could "showtime Synergy!"

That's why I feel so sorry for V - ve thinks ve is worse person than ve actually is because of this little trick.

V doesn't feel guilty about the splice itself though - V feels guilty about Familicide, and he absolutely should feel bad about that.

Pffft. Have you read this comic? It took one page to establish that a guy has a gun that can transform him into a girl. One hilarious page. Without any explanation. Because there's not a system a writer has to conform to (yet), and therefore he's under no obligation to explain anything.

Ok, I have picked a wrong comic, it's usually pretty heavy on magic rules exposition. How about this one? All sorts of weird stuff happens, and only explanation you can expect to be provided is who did this and for what personal reason. No magic rules established at all.

See also this and this. No rules established at all, and it runs pretty smoothly - and is all the more exciting, because we never know what can happen next page.

I haven't read any of those so I can't really point to counterexamples. But even if you're right and those comics manage to establish their magic systems without a line of explanation, that doesn't change anything about my point; the Giant still benefits here in OotS by being able to rely on rules everyone knows.

Redcloak can announce "I rebuked your wights over to my team" and it works; the audience doesn't immediately think "Huh? Can he really do that? Why couldn't Tsukiko notice or fight back? I don't understand this scene!" Instead we simply go "Wow, Redcloak is powerful! And yeah, by the rules, Tsukiko actually wouldn't have noticed he did anything until she tried to give them orders or make more undead." And just like that, we are right back in the story.

[Anarion]

Some "it". Killing the Draketooths led directly to V isolating herself from the party and being unable to help fend off the Linear Guild, to Belkar's incapacitation, and to Durkon's death and vampirization. She is proximately responsible for all the practical diffidulty and emotional suffering the Order has endured since entering Girard's pyramid.

Pardon the interruption, but you should be very careful using that word I bolded there. It's got a technical meaning, which has to do with whether the results that occurred are foreseeable based on a person's bad actions and whether or not there is an intervening unforeseeable cause of the harm.

From a legal standpoint, Durkon's death and Belkar's incapacitation are the classic examples of a complete lack of proximate cause. While V could, with some thought, have foreseen that familicide would affect humans and that perhaps Draketooth referred to a family that was related to dragons (already debatable, but we'll assume it), there's still no way short of divination spells V has never been shown to possess to predict that the casting of familicide would lead to the harm caused to Durkon and Belkar.

The presence of the Linear Guild where they were wasn't foreseeable, the fact that a vampire would decide to join the Linear Guild (decide being used somewhat loosely there) is not foreseeable. Or that the party would split due to a hellhound door trap for that matter. Nearly that entire sequence of events is unforeseeable, and as a technical matter, V is not the proximate cause of any of it.

This has been a terminology aside, now back to your regularly scheduled debate.

Is this true anymore? Haley-V is one of the relationships that predates anyone filling out one of Roy's forms (the others being Durkon-Roy and Elan-Roy), but it seems to me that Elan and Haley are closer than Haley and V are now, even setting aside the former's romantic relationship.

I'd say unknown. The scenes in the thieves guild and the Western continent suggest that Haley and V still feel comfortable around each other (e.g. hug when Haley first sees V, traveling together with V and Elan when lizard bounty hunters arrive). One of the side effects of V getting often separate from the party, however, is that we haven't had a moment where Haley and V get to sit down, catch up and have any kind of heart to heart. At least not on camera.

On top of that, I think that V is a little bit mentally unstable still, and may fear that confessing part of V's problems to Haley would lead to confessing all of them, even the ones that V doesn't want anyone to know about.

So, an interesting side effect of the benching is that it's sort of holding some of V's relationships in stasis simply because others don't know about a lot of what V has done or suffered.

V doesn't feel guilty about the splice itself though - V feels guilty about Familicide, and he absolutely should feel bad about that.

Debatable. V felt pretty bad right after coming back from losing to Xykon and then even worse when V found out that Inkyrius wanted a divorce. Plus the whole synchronized soul-selling joke from Blackwing when the bounty hunters caught V. All of those predated full knowledge of the effects of familicide. The current benching is certainly a reaction to the realization of just how much famlicide did, but I think V has felt guilty about everything related to the soul splice even before she knew of the ramifications of familicide.

[Psyren]

Debatable. V felt pretty bad right after coming back from losing to Xykon and then even worse when V found out that Inkyrius wanted a divorce. Plus the whole synchronized soul-selling joke from Blackwing when the bounty hunters caught V. All of those predated full knowledge of the effects of familicide. The current benching is certainly a reaction to the realization of just how much famlicide did, but I think V has felt guilty about everything related to the soul splice even before she knew of the ramifications of familicide.

Okay, I'll amend my statement - it's possible he feels some amount of guilt about the splice itself. Still, when he talks about his crimes, he focuses primarily on Familicide. Indeed, his initial guilt is around all the humans he killed, and then later he begins to even show remorse for the dragons.

[Morty]

Much as I realize that having an existing rule-set can be handy and that this comic wouldn't be where it is now if not for its D&D roots, I sometimes wish the story didn't have to be written around the thundering incompetence of the people who wrote 3e D&D all those years ago.

[Chantelune]

Debatable. V felt pretty bad right after coming back from losing to Xykon and then even worse when V found out that Inkyrius wanted a divorce. Plus the whole synchronized soul-selling joke from Blackwing when the bounty hunters caught V. All of those predated full knowledge of the effects of familicide. The current benching is certainly a reaction to the realization of just how much famlicide did, but I think V has felt guilty about everything related to the soul splice even before she knew of the ramifications of familicide.

I tend to agree, V realized that her usual approach to magic (moar power !) was the issue. She understands that her deal was a mistake that derivate from her wants for ultimate arcane power and her relishing, which lead to bad consequences and more string attached than she realized.

And she started to realize it soon after her bout with Xykon, when mentioning how it was only after having lost the power of the splice that she started to be efficient as she then stop thinking about raw power but efficient application of what remained of her magic at the time.

[Psyren]

And she started to realize it soon after her bout with Xykon, when mentioning how it was only after having lost the power of the splice that she started to be efficient as she then stop thinking about raw power but efficient application of what remained of her magic at the time.

That was regret for squandering its potential though, not guilt for having made the deal in the first place.

[Anarion]

Okay, I'll amend my statement - it's possible he feels some amount of guilt about the splice itself. Still, when he talks about his crimes, he focuses primarily on Familicide. Indeed, his initial guilt is around all the humans he killed, and then later he begins to even show remorse for the dragons.

Definitely. The familicide is the focus because it was the major bad act that V committed while spliced (note the fiends' discussion that the familicide spell gives them a 50-50 chance of getting V's soul permanently).

Although the soul-selling was itself evil and V almost surely feels bad about it, had V killed the ABD and given it up as Inkyrius requested, it would probably have fallen under evil but necessary and would not have affected V's alignment or V's soul except for the ~15 minute period the IFCC obtained.

Even if V had skipped familicide and done everything else up to and including saving O'chul and losing to Xykon, it might have been considered a selfish evil act with a net gain and still no permanent affect on V's soul. The crushing guilt that currently afflicts V is the result of realizing the full implications of familicide due to entering the Draketooth pyramid.

It was also a convenient excuse to get V to run out of the room in terror and disappear into the pyramid. Which, looping back around to the point of this thread, is a good reason for benching V in this circumstance and led to some interesting drama around the gate. It also, as a matter of pure fact, led to the vamping of Durkon, but that wasn't V's fault as there was no way to predict the results of running away at the time. Of course, that doesn't mean it won't weigh on V's conscience later on.

[Liliet]

Well, other people are saying what I want to say about V feeling guilty NOT ONLY about Familicide, but also about vir pride that presumably let to accepting the splice (even though in reality it didn't).

So I'm going to focus on another interesting point.

I haven't read any of those so I can't really point to counterexamples. But even if you're right and those comics manage to establish their magic systems without a line of explanation, that doesn't change anything about my point; the Giant still benefits here in OotS by being able to rely on rules everyone knows.

Redcloak can announce "I rebuked your wights over to my team" and it works; the audience doesn't immediately think "Huh? Can he really do that? Why couldn't Tsukiko notice or fight back? I don't understand this scene!" Instead we simply go "Wow, Redcloak is powerful! And yeah, by the rules, Tsukiko actually wouldn't have noticed he did anything until she tried to give them orders or make more undead." And just like that, we are right back in the story.

A line of explanation is still needed. "I rebuked your wights over to my team" and "I gained a level so I have this spell now" is just as much explanation as "Oh, and have I mentioned I can shoot lasers from my eyes?". It is needed because not all of the audience is familiar with DnD. See more below.

Much as I realize that having an existing rule-set can be handy and that this comic wouldn't be where it is now if not for its D&D roots, I sometimes wish the story didn't have to be written around the thundering incompetence of the people who wrote 3e D&D all those years ago.

That may be a bit of overstatement, but yeah, I basically agree.

What I think is generally bad about basing a comic on D&D is that all powers become foreseeable. Not entirely predictable, you never know what spells a wizard has in his spellbook and which of them he has prepared today (unless you do), but you can plan for every power-related contingency. All surprises that are left are about people's decisions and relationships, which kinda defeats the point (or at least part of the point) of using the fantasy magic system.

When a villain says "I'm in control of your undead army now!" the audience and characters don't go "Oh God! I had no idea he could do that!", they go "Well duh, he's an Evil cleric, should have planned better". I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, just that all potential benefits by letting the audience know the system beforehand are outweighed by the drawbacks more or less equally.

However, the argument "you don't have to develop the system from scratch" is, from creative point of view, far outweighed by "you don't get to develop the system from scratch". Rich has already said why - because you have to tailor the plot to the powers, not the powers to the plot, and... and don't get to develop a new system from scratch, duh. (although that can be just me)


When you are writing your own system, you have to care to make all your powers look logical from a certain point of view (examples: "Duh, redhead with a violent temper and a lighter in her pocket, it's only natural that she would control fire", "Well, she is mysterious and with unknown origins, no wonder she has some mystical powers"), but as a result, they REALLY look awesome. People say that Roy is awesome for being able to beat an army, but honestly... their calculations show that at his level he SHOULD be able to beat an army. It's predictable. It's what everyone of his level gets. We know for certain that Tarquin would be able to beat an even bigger army because he's of the same class (presumably) and higher level than Roy. The closest thing to dramatic personal empowering we've seen was Elan seeing through the illusion, and it was soon mitigated by showing Nale do the same.

Because the whole point of D&D rules is consistency and equality: if one person can do that, another of the same class and level can do it too.

You don't need to have an undeveloped and unexplained magic system to avoid that. You merely need to incorporate inpredictability into magic system, allowing for some to be more awesome than others because of personal resolve (translated to D&D as will saves), learning capability (translated to D&D as earning XP according to strict rules) and perhaps just personality.


And about the benefits of the audience already being familiar with the system... but not all of it is. There are lots of people in the forums, and probably even more out there, who have never heard the term "DnD" before starting to read the comic. For some of them, Roy cleaving through the army is awesome because they didn't see that coming, for some - it's unrealistic and feels like cheating, because DnD isn't realistic enough to provide drama for those who are not used to it.


I hope I was coherent enough.

[Morty]

That may be a bit of overstatement, but yeah, I basically agree.
*snip*

It's not really about working within an existing, very detailed system. The problem here is not really that D&D 3e is detailed and math-heavy, but that it's shoddy. Its designers had no idea what they were doing, and a wizard above a certain level will simply have far too many options for dealing with problems, without really trying. Which is why V ends up being 'benched'.

[Liliet]

It's not really about working within an existing, very detailed system. The problem here is not really that D&D 3e is detailed and math-heavy, but that it's shoddy. Its designers had no idea what they were doing, and a wizard above a certain level will simply have far too many options for dealing with problems, without really trying. Which is why V ends up being 'benched'.

I think that the main problem is, even the best game system is NOT applicable for making a good story, ever. Game systems are designed so that everything be predictable and calculable, including the odds. And repeatable. The good story requires unpredictable twists and "one in a million chances" actually working, and not because the dice was kind, but because the character was awesome. They have directly contradicting purposes.

[Psyren]

A line of explanation is still needed.

Of course. Obviously we need to be clear on what he did, and as you point out, the D&D neophytes would be handicapped without one. (D&D-savvy folks could have come to this conclusion without explanation - note how many people sussed out not only that Malack was a vampire, but that he had researched a sunlight blocking spell, before the reveal.)

But while an explanation is needed to show what he did, no explanation is needed to show how he did it. Rebuking is supernatural (i.e. mental), so we know how he was able to seize control without Tsukiko's knowledge - check. Nobody explains what a "dimensional lock" is, but the rules lay out what it does pretty clearly - check. Casting spells while grappled is very difficult - check (this particular one comes up in many other contexts, such as Durkon's battle with Malack and V's battle with Xykon.) Tsukiko stumbles on the truth because of her knowledge of spell schools - check. Wights have enough agency to crack jokes or attack on their own, but not enough to resist their cleric's commands - check. And so on.

Plenty of other scenes use the rules to conserve on dialogue. We aren't told in the comic what an "attack roll" is, but we know why Tsukiko's new spells can hit Haley easily while having a harder time hitting Belkar's cat. We also know why Belkar's cat can distract her so effectively and why the Wight touching her to get the cat off would be a bad thing.

So even with the difficulties that powerful protagonist spellcasters can cause, there are still some benefits to outweigh those drawbacks.

[Bulldog Psion]

I think both approaches are valid and have something to bring to the table.

[Liliet]

Of course. Obviously we need to be clear on what he did, and as you point out, the D&D neophytes would be handicapped without one. (D&D-savvy folks could have come to this conclusion without explanation - note how many people sussed out not only that Malack was a vampire, but that he had researched a sunlight blocking spell, before the reveal.)

Exactly. For the sake of those not in the know, D&D is just like a made-up-on-the-spot magic system, but unnecessarily complicated.

But while an explanation is needed to show what he did, no explanation is needed to show how he did it. Rebuking is supernatural (i.e. mental), so we know how he was able to seize control without Tsukiko's knowledge - check. Nobody explains what a "dimensional lock" is, but the rules lay out what it does pretty clearly - check. Casting spells while grappled is very difficult - check (this particular one comes up in many other contexts, such as Durkon's battle with Malack and V's battle with Xykon.) Tsukiko stumbles on the truth because of her knowledge of spell schools - check. Wights have enough agency to crack jokes or attack on their own, but not enough to resist their cleric's commands - check. And so on.

Wha?...
No explanation is EVER needed on how magic works, unless you specifically want to Do In The Wizard. It's magic. That just works for anyone who is willing to read a fantasy comic. If it doesn't, DnD doesn't exactly provide an explanation either.

Actually, DnD terms only complicate the explanation, if you keep in mind those who are not familiar with the system. I only knew what "rebuke" was because it was clearly what Reddy just did to Tsukiko's wights. It may be because of me not being a native speaker, but there is a lot of unnecessary for the story complication anyway. For example, V's barred school preventing vir from casting Teleport, which would translate into original magic system as "I can't learn that spell" and would be much simpler for a new reader. Malack's raising Durkon immediately with his staff, which would not require explanation AT ALL without a need to conform to an existing system.

Plenty of other scenes use the rules to conserve on dialogue. We aren't told in the comic what an "attack roll" is, but we know why Tsukiko's new spells can hit Haley easily while having a harder time hitting Belkar's cat. We also know why Belkar's cat can distract her so effectively and why the Wight touching her to get the cat off would be a bad thing.

No, they don't. They can't. They have no right to. Rich is aiming his comic at larger audience than just DnD fans, so he can't count on his readers knowing the rules. Tsukiko's new spell can hit Haley easily while having a harder time hitting Belkar's cat because it's different from the spell she used before, and that's all we need to know for that scene to make sense. "Attack roll" is an inside joke and an additional explanation for DnD geeks, and only complicates things for those who don't know.

Of course, if your audience is exclusively DnD geeks, then you can get away with less explanation... but that's pretty narrow.


What DnD gives you in a story sense is the settings, concepts - like paladins with their falls, clerics of Chaotic gods that must be themselves Chaotic, alignment system, races/monsters with their complex relationship and so on. It may give you inspiration for your own story alright, I know it firsthand (I'm in the middle of such story myself), and of course you would conform to the rules to not destroy your own point (provided you want to make some point). But having to follow pre-existing rules is a drawback of writing a "DnD story", not an advantage.

Well, rules also provide a source for rules jokes, which was, as far as I know, exactly the reason why OotS is a DnD comic. But you can't base a story on jokes. You can base a comic on jokes, and it doesn't make a comic any worse, but if you do want a story, you need a little more.

[Reddish Mage]

Superman by himself is not a problem. Superman as part of the Justice League is not a problem. Superman as a member of an ensemble FBI team IS a problem, because sometimes Agent Fred is supposed to be the one to catch the serial killer. You end up resorting to a LOT of kryptonite.

That's an interesting analogy. In that it suggest that the whole rest of the whole order is not EVEN in V's league! That includes Durkon who has some pretty nice game-breaking potential himself, and I note that Durkon ran low on spells early and somehow ran all out of spells by this point.

I thought Superman and the Justice League is actually a pretty good analogy to the Wizard and the lower tier classes.

Heck, I would say that even in the League he's a problem. A lot of stories have him just plain absent, because not sidelining him would solve the plot in very short order. Not to mention what would happen if he started policing Gotham, Metro City etc.

Numerous other members of the league have some powers. Even "mundanes" like Batman and Green Arrow have tons of tricks they can do and are more like Wuxia martial artists than ordinary humans. However, Superman's powers dwarf most of those abilities and he has a ton of powers! That seems to be a good analogy to D&D characters where high level mundanes can pull out all sorts of mythological heroic abilities, but a Wizard can usually dwarf those abilities an then have a number of others to spare!

Now the Justice League stories do have Superman in there, not to mention a the endless series of Superman and Batman team-ups. Sometimes that involves a willful ignorance of the fact that Superman can clean up a particular combat at superspeed, or perhaps Superman is just holding back so that Batman gets a chance. Not to mention that most authors forget that Superman is a technical and scientific super-human genius with hyper-advanced alien knowledge on top of those superpowers. Yet for all his genius, how many times has Superman faced off with the main villain prematurely without making adequate preparations? What sort of irresponsible comic would suggest their genius character will just go charging headlong into danger like that?

Now Superman and FBI agents? That's overkill. That'd be like dropping Vaarsuvius + a template in a party of commoners.

[Sir_Leorik]

That's an interesting analogy. In that it suggest that the whole rest of the whole order is not EVEN in V's league! That includes Durkon who has some pretty nice game-breaking potential himself, and I note that Durkon ran low on spells early and somehow ran all out of spells by this point.

I thought Superman and the Justice League is actually a pretty good analogy to the Wizard and the lower tier classes.

Numerous other members of the league have some powers. Even "mundanes" like Batman and Green Arrow have tons of tricks they can do and are more like Wuxia martial artists than ordinary humans. However, Superman's powers dwarf most of those abilities and he has a ton of powers! That seems to be a good analogy to D&D characters where high level mundanes can pull out all sorts of mythological heroic abilities, but a Wizard can usually dwarf those abilities an then have a number of others to spare!

Now the Justice League stories do have Superman in there, not to mention a the endless series of Superman and Batman team-ups. Sometimes that involves a willful ignorance of the fact that Superman can clean up a particular combat at superspeed, or perhaps Superman is just holding back so that Batman gets a chance. Not to mention that most authors forget that Superman is a technical and scientific super-human genius with hyper-advanced alien knowledge on top of those superpowers. Yet for all his genius, how many times has Superman faced off with the main villain prematurely without making adequate preparations? What sort of irresponsible comic would suggest their genius character will just go charging headlong into danger like that?

The Justice League often fights enemies that are more powerful than Superman, such as Darkseid, Lobo, Starro, Despero, Amazo, Neron or anybody from the Fifth Dimension, as well as enemies that are equal in power to Superman, such as Mongul, Bizarro, Felix Faust, Dr. Light, or the Female Furies. In these cases, Superman is not too powerful; he relies on Wonder Woman, Green Lantern or the Flash to back him up, and Batman usually provides the winning strategies for the League. The Flash is faster than Superman, Wonder Woman is as strong as Superman and she's resistant to magic, Green Lantern wields the most powerful weapon in the universe, Aquaman is super-strong, telepathic, able to resist the pressures of the Marianas Trench, has access to the Atlantean Navy, Atlantean technology and Atlantean magic, and is as rich as Bruce Wayne or Lex Luthor from sunken pirate treasure alone. (And he has an octopus that fire four longbows at once. ) And Batman is the world's greatest detective. That's a nice mix of powers, that Superman doesn't overshadow. Especially when you remember that Superman pulls his punches to avoid killing his opponents and to minimize property damage.

Vaarsuvius does sometimes overshadow the rest of the OotS. That may no longer be true of Durkon, but V is often able to resolve combats on her own before anyone else can do anything. Sometimes that's not a big deal, other times it gets in the way of the story. And when she runs out of spells, V is in serious trouble, not to mention that she lacks access to the Conjuration school. So in the long run V is not too powerful, but in some cases she needs to be separated from the group, by running off on her own, being turned into a small purple lizard, or having her soul yanked into the Nine Hells.

[TheWolfe]

Exactly. For the sake of those not in the know, D&D is just like a made-up-on-the-spot magic system, but unnecessarily complicated.


Wha?...
No explanation is EVER needed on how magic works, unless you specifically want to Do In The Wizard. It's magic. That just works for anyone who is willing to read a fantasy comic. If it doesn't, DnD doesn't exactly provide an explanation either.

I disagree. Even if magic is a power that is not understood, it still needs limitations and rules. I recommend reading this essay on the subject.
Basically, if you just say "It's Magic!", you can do anything with it. If there were no limitations on magic in OOTS, we would wonder "Why doesn't V just teleport? Why does Durkon needs to rest for his spells?"

I don't require a scientific explanation for magic, because then it's not fantasy anymore, but scifi. But I do require that magic has it's limitations and own 'Laws of Nature/Magic'. Because in this world, magic is simply another force of nature. Just like we know that things fall down when we drop them because of gravity, so do the characters (and the DnD players) know that wizards can not study every school of magic.

Another example. In the RPG game Dragon Age Origins there was magic, but one of the rules of magic was: Teleportation is impossible. If you establish such a rule, your story has to support it. Meaning you can't just introduce a teleport spell halfway through to solve a problem. At least not without a good explanation, like that this new spell is not part of normal magic, but of a dark magic that works different than the normal magic, or that you didn't strictly teleport, but slowed time down and walked the entire way in a fraction of a second.

I have to add that in Dragon Age there actually was a bit of an explanation for magic. It basically was a power that some people could draw from the 'Fade' a sort of other plain that contains demons and is the source of all supernatural things, such as walking skeletons, demonic possessions etc.

[Imgran]

It was also a convenient excuse to get V to run out of the room in terror and disappear into the pyramid. Which, looping back around to the point of this thread, is a good reason for benching V in this circumstance and led to some interesting drama around the gate. It also, as a matter of pure fact, led to the vamping of Durkon, but that wasn't V's fault as there was no way to predict the results of running away at the time. Of course, that doesn't mean it won't weigh on V's conscience later on.

I'd love to know how a mistake Haley made, followed by a decision Belkar made, culminating in in a duty Durkon felt he had, in any could have been prevented by Vaarsuvius. Nothing in that chain of events is something that V would have been likely to be able to identify or prevent.


I feel extremely comfortable saying that with a magical trap onhand to disable, Vaarsuvius would have stayed with the main party to lend whatever aid she can, and only when the trap was down would he have been willing to investigate the location of either of the wayward pair. V would not have gone after Belkar himself, and it's unlikely she would have followed Durkon either.

And even if he had, she's such a vulnerable little thing, and Malack's abilities are so versatile, that I doubt his presence makes the battle any easier. A wizard dealing with either a cleric or a vampire is a ticklish thing even without the bonuses and abilities provided by the other hand of Malack's identity, and giving up a few levels to the vampire cleric hardly helps matters. Disabling the wizard would have been Malack's first move before he even spoke to Durkon, the upshot being that V is either dead, or also vamped, and the rest of the scene goes on more or less as dictated.

[TRH]

Eh, disintegrate would have put down that Hellhound before it could drag Belkar halfway down the pyramid, so that's something.