Why is V constantly benched?

[Reddish Mage]

In addition to these two very excellent answers, I want to point out that when I called it a "cause in fact" what I meant was that it is an action without which the result would not have occurred. There are infinite causes in fact for a particular result. For example, one cause in fact of Durkon's vampirism is his mother and father have intimate relations. Had that never occurred, Durkon would not have been turned into a vampire because Durkon wouldn't have been born. The cause in fact I was referencing was actually the familicide spell: had V not killed all of the Draketooths, Malack and Durkon would not have been where they were and the vamping would not have happened (at least not at that time in that manner).

This is actually why I distinguished proximate cause a few pages back. There are infinite causes in fact for a given result, but often only a single proximate cause. This is because unforeseeable outcomes should be distinguished from foreseeable outcomes, even if there are many actions that, had they not occurred, would have changed the outcome.


Edit: by the by, I'm using technical terminology here because I think it's useful in thinking about how to understand V's emotions in this circumstance. So, if you read through this and feel like you get it, congrats, you just learned a little piece of legal theory.

I thought the term proximate cause, in the way you mean it to be the ONE cause directly responsible for the event immediately following the earlier event that gave rise to the proximate cause, is more philosophical (and debatable, why can't the law of gravity as well as the impact to his brain as well the bursting of a critical blood vessel all be simultaneously and proximate ly the cause of Roy's death?).

Legal proximity seemed to have something to do with foreseeability and was in your previous post about how Varsuvius, in addition to being very distant in time and space from the OOTS's problems in the Pyramid, also couldn't foresee that his actions would lead to such problems arising for the OOTS at the Pyramid.

[Liliet]

Of course magic has to have consistent rules. Thing is, those rules don't have to be detailed. You don't need to explain why the character can't teleport, you can just have him say "I wish I could teleport!" or something to that effect, and the only thing you have to watch after that is internal consistency. The most obvious narrative-appropriate approach, I think, is Personality Powers. You do need to establish a personality, but it's not like there can be a good story without that.

I think the sensible approach to both reading and writing magical stories is "if something is not established as possible, it is not". If no-one teleports in a story, you don't have to explain that there are no teleport powers in it, viewers/readers will just assume there aren't.

Of course lack of clearly established magic system can help with creating plot holes, mary sues, deus ex machinas and other bad things. But it's not like they are entirely prevented by its existence, so in the end it all boils down to narrative mastery.


Let me give you an example. Imagine that you start reading a webcomic, and first panel features a person magically conjuring a light source to walk safely home from work at midnight. Will your first thought be "Why doesn't he just teleport there if he's a wizard"? Does the author have to establish lack of teleport powers or is it obvious from the fact the wizard is shown walking?

[SavageWombat]

Let me give you an example. Imagine that you start reading a webcomic, and first panel features a person magically conjuring a light source to walk safely home from work at midnight. Will your first thought be "Why doesn't he just teleport there if he's a wizard"? Does the author have to establish lack of teleport powers or is it obvious from the fact the wizard is shown walking?

I like this example.

I think most people would assume that, yes, the absence of teleport in this scene means that the character can't, or at least can't at this time. (Won't is also possible.) The thing is - if it comes up later in the story that the character can teleport after all, some people won't mind, and some people will go "wait a minute ... why". The fact that we have magic as a premise means that most people can stretch the premise to include a new fact later, without presuming those facts until they arise.

I remember some spec-fic writer saying that the audience will allow you one free violation of the status quo without questioning - you can say "there's future science", "there's magic", "my baby is Bigfoot" etc. - and they won't complain. Until you throw a second premise in - that's where the implausibility comes in. ("If superpowers come from aliens, why is there a wizard?")

[Imgran]

Edit: by the by, I'm using technical terminology here because I think it's useful in thinking about how to understand V's emotions in this circumstance. So, if you read through this and feel like you get it, congrats, you just learned a little piece of legal theory.

And like all legal theory, it does its best work when it adopts a slightly misleading term to exaggerate the significance of a point of fact to make it sound much bigger and more serious than it ever really could have been.

Also, your cause in fact is in fact rather dubious. Had V not cast Familicide, the adventuring sextet would still have met Malack, because they still would have had to check on Girard's Gate. Encountering Malack happened before they discovered what had happened to the Draketooths, and at that point, Durkon getting vampirized could have happened in any number of different ways some of which have nothing to do with V. Unless you can establish that by not casting Familicide, Durkon never encounters Malack or piques Malack's interest, I'm afraid you haven't made your case.

[Mammal]

I think an interesting take on the magic rules thing is when there are consistent rules, but the audience never actually figures out what they are.

For example, in the Dishonored video game, magic comes from the Outsider. Everything but that is a complete mystery. The protagonist has 8 or 9 different abilities, but other people have completely different powers, or some of the same powers or more powers or fewer powers and it's all based on whether or not the Outsider thinks you're "interesting." It's almost entirely arbitrary, and while the powers themselves aren't the main narrative focus, they're interesting enough that they could serve as the narrative focus for the inevitable sequel.

Another series with largely unexplained rules is the Runaways comic series: Niko is a witch, but she needs the Staff of One to cast spells, she needs to be bleeding to access the Staff of One, and she can only cast any given spell once. Those rules are concrete, but pretty much everything else is up in the air. There's no guarantee that the spells will take on the forms she expects them to-I can't think of the exact scenario, but at one point, she accidentally conjures up a flock of geese-very much not what she was hoping for.

I guess that only works if the audience is learning the rules as the characters do. It'd be harder to pull off in a setting like OotS, where magic is prevalent-if it's common, someone would already know the rules. If it's not, then experimentation on the protagonist's part is the only way to learn about the magic.

EDIT: And re: "you only get one deviation from the norm before the audience revolts:" I've heard a variation on that phrased "the audience will believe the impossible, but not the improbable." There is a wizard, and she can fly? Fine. The wizard fails to save her boyfriend from a monster because she can't get there in time? If she can fly, why couldn't she get there in time? I call BS!

[Psyren]

Of course magic has to have consistent rules. Thing is, those rules don't have to be detailed. You don't need to explain why the character can't teleport, you can just have him say "I wish I could teleport!" or something to that effect, and the only thing you have to watch after that is internal consistency.

You're wrong - because we know that in OotS, not only can spellcasters learn new spells, they can even research custom ones. Teleportation is just too useful to not have a reason why everyone with sufficient power would try and learn it. It would be like a cleric who couldn't heal- you do have to explain it somehow or it leaves a jarring gap.

The rules provide a very plausible reason why V can never learn it, and it only required one line of dialogue to put to bed for the entire strip.

I think the sensible approach to both reading and writing magical stories is "if something is not established as possible, it is not". If no-one teleports in a story, you don't have to explain that there are no teleport powers in it, viewers/readers will just assume there aren't.

Z, Xykon, and even Redcloak teleport, so you need to explain why V and Durkon can't or won't.

Let me give you an example. Imagine that you start reading a webcomic, and first panel features a person magically conjuring a light source to walk safely home from work at midnight. Will your first thought be "Why doesn't he just teleport there if he's a wizard"? Does the author have to establish lack of teleport powers or is it obvious from the fact the wizard is shown walking?

Obviously I wouldn't think that then. But I would think that if his rival wizard teleports around the place to commit evil deeds, and particularly if a wizard established as being weaker (e.g. the Cliffport Taxi Mage in the comic) is capable of it when the protagonist is not.

[bguy]

Also, your cause in fact is in fact rather dubious. Had V not cast Familicide, the adventuring sextet would still have met Malack, because they still would have had to check on Girard's Gate. Encountering Malack happened before they discovered what had happened to the Draketooths, and at that point, Durkon getting vampirized could have happened in any number of different ways some of which have nothing to do with V. Unless you can establish that by not casting Familicide, Durkon never encounters Malack or piques Malack's interest, I'm afraid you haven't made your case.

Well if V had not cast Familicide, it's possible that the still living Girard Clan would have responded in some manner to the Order setting off Girard's trap in the middle of the desert. (They are bound to take an interest in someone setting off their trap after all.) If they actually contact the Order (even if that contact is hostile) it would prevent the Order from needing to go to Bleedingham to look for them, and thus Durkon would never meet Malack.

[Liliet]

You're wrong - because we know that in OotS, not only can spellcasters learn new spells, they can even research custom ones. Teleportation is just too useful to not have a reason why everyone with sufficient power would try and learn it. It would be like a cleric who couldn't heal- you do have to explain it somehow or it leaves a jarring gap.
The rules provide a very plausible reason why V can never learn it, and it only required one line of dialogue to put to bed for the entire strip.

1) OotS is based on DnD. Had it been based on a custom system, it may well not have had choosing spells.
2) "I wish my chosen school would allow me to learn to teleport!" - 1 line of dialogue.

Oh, and by the way, in the custom system there is no reason for the cleric to necessarily be able to heal. Not a single one. Seriously.

Z, Xykon, and even Redcloak teleport, so you need to explain why V and Durkon can't or won't.

This explanation takes 1 line of dialogue stating that they can't. Nothing more.

Obviously I wouldn't think that then. But I would think that if his rival wizard teleports around the place to commit evil deeds, and particularly if a wizard established as being weaker (e.g. the Cliffport Taxi Mage in the comic) is capable of it when the protagonist is not.

Let's start with stating the fact that without a leveling system, any "weaker"-ness is relative. Our protagonist may have more powerful combat spells or bigger quantity of them, but lack teleport powers, effectively establishing him as being weaker than his opponent in a situation that requires quick movement.

Then, ok, some other wizard can teleport and our protagonist can't. He is frustrated over it (OBVIOUSLY) and says something like "I wish I had listened at school when we were learning those spells!" or "I wish I had chosen my specialisation wiser!"

Problem solved?

[Sir_Leorik]

V and Blackwing are off the bench.

[zimmerwald1915]

V and Blackwing are off the bench.

Only in the same way Thog is dead. Not only have we not seen the "Xs", as it were, but we're guaranteed at least two repeats of this scenario. That's discounting other "benchings" like falling down the pit trap.

[Liliet]

...we have yet to see if V is going to do something important. Those guys were teasing him for a reason...
Hell, I can't wait for the next comic! VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV!!!

[TRH]

I can't be the only one who considers the entirety of the period from when V ran off to be one long benching.

[Psyren]

1) OotS is based on DnD. Had it been based on a custom system, it may well not have had choosing spells.
2) "I wish my chosen school would allow me to learn to teleport!" - 1 line of dialogue.

1) Spell research being a thing is a plot point multiple times in the comic. So in your custom, non-D&D system, you still need to explain why V didn't even try to research transportation magic.
2) Without D&D - what are schools? Why do casters have to choose one? Why does learning one keep you from learning the one that has teleport?

Oh, and by the way, in the custom system there is no reason for the cleric to necessarily be able to heal. Not a single one. Seriously.

@ Durkon:

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It's true, these abilities don't have to be tied to a single person in the party. But they do need to be there. Natural healing/convalescence takes a very long time; you need magical healing to justify scenes that require the tension of serious injuries (e.g. Elan getting impaled) but without the long recovery such injuries would require in our world. This allows for the drama without creating suspension of disbelief dissonance.

So yeah, they could probably have replaced Durkon with a bunch of healing belts for the group. But you lose narrative tension by doing that too. Roy's comment ("Durkon is base") illustrates that neatly - by tying the healing to a specific character, you open up all kinds of storytelling material - his motivations, his attitude to the rest of the party, how they do without him etc.

This explanation takes 1 line of dialogue stating that they can't. Nothing more.

Merely stating they can't doesn't tell us why.

Problem solved?

No, because it doesn't answer the question of "hey, this ability would be really useful and research/magic shops are a thing. Why don't I try to get it now?"

Hell, there are even places you can buy single-use magic - teleport scrolls exist and are also a plot-point, as we saw with Ganji/Enor. So you need to explain why V, who is in the same town and rich enough to buy a jar of powdered diamonds, doesn't obtain such items for himself.

Your non-D&D system fails utterly at doing this.

[SyfteStormcrow]

Maybe I'm way out of line here...

But unless I'm mistaken, in 3.5 DnD, wizards choose two schools that they flat out cannot cast. In this case, it seems that V's are Conjuration (A definite, as this was stated) and Necromancy (Inferred by the lack of ever using a Necromancy spell, but using a spell from every other school but that and Conjuration.) I know the Giant can use his 'DM Fiat' to make things go however he wants them to, but in this it seems to stick to the rules that a wizard cannot cast, learn, prepare, etc a spell in one of his two barred schools. It further states they are effectivley removed from his list, meaning that they're considered unable to use scrolls and wands and the like for those types of spells.

As for researching the spells, it seems that teleportation is universally a Conjuration effect, and even if someone researched a new Teleport spell, it'd still be Conjuration.

As for why Durkon cannot teleport, unless the 3.5 Cleric Spell list is way different than I recall, Teleport isn't on the cleric spell list, and not in any of the domains Durkon would likely take (Or have now, as a Vampire).

That's my two cents, anyway.

[Sunken Valley]

I don't get why people say V is the most powerful.

The only thing V can fight is a melee who is far enough away not to be struck on round one, doesn't have spell resistance, has no ranged capacity (or at the very least, one that deals <20 points an attack) and doesn't not have the saves to beat V's spells.

V can only attack a maximum of 54 times a day (assuming level 16 and 28 int, which are overestimates.). This is without prepping buffs, divinations or utilities. Further, most of V's tricks are one shot damage spells which are a quick flash of damage and then gone. At V's level, blasting is not the best way to go as melee is out doing you in the damage stakes. Whilst V has been dipping in the mind control market, this only affects stupid foes who V could demolish with evocations. Most of the really good "broken spells" are in conjuration and necromancy, which V does not have. Whilst V still possesses powerful spells, they are not the best. And once those 54 tricks go, V has no real power, no armour, no weapons, and is weaker than her co-stars. At least Roy, Haley and Belkar can keep going all day even if V has 54, carefully prepared, tricks.

The real most powerful member of OOTS is Durkon. Durkon has a maximum of 52 spells to use (level 14 and 28 wis, he'd have more than V if we added 2 levels). Durkon has no restrictions on conjuring meaning he can do some of the tricks V can't (ringing up angels and devils). Further, Durkon's direct presence insures his allies immortality, killing tension, some V could never dream of doing. Durkon has multiple damaging spells (more of which don't require saving throws). Further when he's done, he's still a warrior with a hammer and armour, so he wear foes down with high AC. Not only that, Durkon has a new template which guarantees him screen-time, gives him a better weapon than V's blasts he can use at will and he has a work around for his major weakness.

Why does everyone see V as so big again?

[TRH]

Why does everyone see V as so big again?

I think the consensus answer on this thread is that when Durkon dominates a fight, it's him being his dutiful and reliable old self, but when V does similar, it's insufferable. Considering how rarely V does much of anything, I kind of question whether we have enough data on this question. I propose a more comprehensive study on the matter, with Tarquin's army serving as test subjects.

[zimmerwald1915]

Why does everyone see V as so big again?

I'm pretty sure the whole post was tongue-in-cheek, but the Giant called out V in his commentary as the one who needs taking out of the story, and said no such thing about Durkon.

[Anarion]

I'm pretty sure the whole post was tongue-in-cheek, but the Giant called out V in his commentary as the one who needs taking out of the story, and said no such thing about Durkon.

More specifically because Durkon is reactive. Even though he can dominate fights, his personality is such that he tends to sit back and play healbot, only going all out cleric power when there's no other choice. V, on the other hand, has a personality that is all about using lots of arcane power. So, even if V is suboptimal in terms of a caster build, V is still way more likely than Durkon, in terms of personality, to blow away half the field with magical evocations before anyone else has done anything.

Also, charcterizing V has only having 54 tricks is a bit misleading. One V "trick" as Sunken Valley calls it, could easily equate to 10 or more of Roy's actions. Alternately, if V is getting smarter about spell selection, one "trick" could enable Roy, Elan, Haley, and Belkar to each take 10 additional actions without being disabled. Even without conjuration, there are some really excellent transmutations out there, some very useful enchantments, and assorted evocations, divinations and, of course, illusions that can still affect the whole battlefield.

Finally, I do think Sabine's "knock 'em dead, elf" strongly implies that V will be participating in this battle.

[Liliet]

I can't be the only one who considers the entirety of the period from when V ran off to be one long benching.

In-universe, even.

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1) Spell research being a thing is a plot point multiple times in the comic. So in your custom, non-D&D system, you still need to explain why V didn't even try to research transportation magic.

I can remember it being a plot point only once - V vs Cloister. With custom system it could be done differently, without a need for a new spell for each new try. Hell, the custom system could be not spell-based at all.

2) Without D&D - what are schools? Why do casters have to choose one? Why does learning one keep you from learning the one that has teleport?

Well, classic schools that I find referenced most often are elemental - you know, Fire, Water, Air, Earth and whatever author feels like adding. Lots of magic systems limit the caster to one chosen or at least restrict him from taking the opposite (D&D is pretty lenient here, by the way).

You seem to put the cart before the horse. D&D is based on lots of stories, and it is incredibly complicated because authors felt the need to incorporate EVERYTHING. Everything that is present in D&D is also present somewhere else and is most probably quite recognisable even for those who have never heard of this tabletop game. There may be some unique elements, but magic system is certainly not one of them, it's just badly balanced mish-mash of everything authors could come up with.

@ Durkon:

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It's true, these abilities don't have to be tied to a single person in the party. But they do need to be there. Natural healing/convalescence takes a very long time; you need magical healing to justify scenes that require the tension of serious injuries (e.g. Elan getting impaled) but without the long recovery such injuries would require in our world. This allows for the drama without creating suspension of disbelief dissonance.

So yeah, they could probably have replaced Durkon with a bunch of healing belts for the group. But you lose narrative tension by doing that too. Roy's comment ("Durkon is base") illustrates that neatly - by tying the healing to a specific character, you open up all kinds of storytelling material - his motivations, his attitude to the rest of the party, how they do without him etc.

From the game point of view, yes, they need healing. From the game point of view, there HAS to be a healer in the group. From the story point of view? They are badass enough that they don't get that heavily injured. Or they can have superhero-style regeneration. Or, I dunno, there can be someone other than cleric who can heal.

Don't think "D&D comic", think "action comic".

Merely stating they can't doesn't tell us why.

Wuh? It's magic. Namely, it's magic that their opponents can, that they can't is pretty mundane. It doesn't require explanation. If it becomes a plot point why they can't, sure, it will be explained, but everything gets explained upon becoming a plot point, even if it's a D&D comic - unless it's aimed at a very narrow audience of D&D geeks, which OotS is not.

No, because it doesn't answer the question of "hey, this ability would be really useful and research/magic shops are a thing. Why don't I try to get it now?"

Why must magic shops be a thing? Why must research be so avaliable as to be able to do anything? "I've tried to develop a Teleport spell multiple times but failed each time." Or "I'd love to research my own Teleport spell but I have no idea where to start". It's D&D rules that make wizards such learned scholars that research is a given, in reality it's quite a creative activity.

Oh, and in case you forgot, stories are supposed to emulate reality, not D&D.

Hell, there are even places you can buy single-use magic - teleport scrolls exist and are also a plot-point, as we saw with Ganji/Enor. So you need to explain why V, who is in the same town and rich enough to buy a jar of powdered diamonds, doesn't obtain such items for himself.

Huh. I don't remember why, I don't know a D&D rule that forbids vir from this. I just took it for given that ve can't, because if ve could, ve certainly would. So it works pretty well without explanation.


Oh, and ALL these teleport problems would be solved by claiming that the wizard specialises in Fire school (fits V, doesn't it?) which, unfortunately, makes all Water magic even more inaccessible for him than for non-wizards who can at least use scrolls. Oh, and Teleport is Water magic. Why? Pfff. For the same reason wizards have to bar some schools in D&D. Because magic works this way.

(on second thought, while debunking individual arguments is fun, it only muddles the main point)

Look, you claim that using D&D magic system requires less explanation, because readers are already familiar with it. Problem is, they aren't. Rich does not write his comic for D&D geeks exclusively, therefore, magic requires just as much explanation as it would with custom system.

[Sir_Leorik]

Look, you claim that using D&D magic system requires less explanation, because readers are already familiar with it. Problem is, they aren't. Rich does not write his comic for D&D geeks exclusively, therefore, magic requires just as much explanation as it would with custom system.

I agree with you that readers that are not familiar with D&D's Vancian Magic system, Schools of Magic, Spontaneous casters vs. Spell Preparation casters, and Divine vs. Arcane casters, need to have the rules explained. The good news is that Wizards of the Coast published a book called the Player's Handbook, ver. 3.5, which they recently reprinted, which contains those rules. Also, the rules were made "open content" under the d20 Open Game License, and can be read in the d20 System Reference Document. The problem is that there may be readers who are not familiar enough with Dungeons & Dragons to even know where to find a copy of the PHB or the d20 SRD. Luckily that's what these forums are for!

[Ghost Nappa]

More specifically because Durkon is reactive. Even though he can dominate fights, his personality is such that he tends to sit back and play healbot, only going all out cleric power when there's no other choice. V, on the other hand, has a personality that is all about using lots of arcane power. So, even if V is suboptimal in terms of a caster build, V is still way more likely than Durkon, in terms of personality, to blow away half the field with magical evocations before anyone else has done anything.

Also, charcterizing V has only having 54 tricks is a bit misleading. One V "trick" as Sunken Valley calls it, could easily equate to 10 or more of Roy's actions. Alternately, if V is getting smarter about spell selection, one "trick" could enable Roy, Elan, Haley, and Belkar to each take 10 additional actions without being disabled. Even without conjuration, there are some really excellent transmutations out there, some very useful enchantments, and assorted evocations, divinations and, of course, illusions that can still affect the whole battlefield.

Finally, I do think Sabine's "knock 'em dead, elf" strongly implies that V will be participating in this battle.

And that we'll being seeing exactly why Rich keeps V benched and Durkon reactive. No-holds-beatdown.

[zimmerwald1915]

And that we'll being seeing exactly why Rich keeps V benched and Durkon reactive. No-holds-beatdown.

We might be seeing that. Or we might be seeing a scenario where V is still trapped under the rubble and Durkon remains out of spells; even if dusk will come soon, he'll still need an hour of uninterrupted meditation to prepare spells, and where the scene will belong to Roy, Elan, and Haley. As it should be.

[Liliet]

I agree with you that readers that are not familiar with D&D's Vancian Magic system, Schools of Magic, Spontaneous casters vs. Spell Preparation casters, and Divine vs. Arcane casters, need to have the rules explained. The good news is that Wizards of the Coast published a book called the Player's Handbook, ver. 3.5, which they recently reprinted, which contains those rules. Also, the rules were made "open content" under the d20 Open Game License, and can be read in the d20 System Reference Document. The problem is that there may be readers who are not familiar enough with Dungeons & Dragons to even know where to find a copy of the PHB or the d20 SRD. Luckily that's what these forums are for!

I'm quite sure that the majority of readers does not care about forums, does not have time to visit them and probably doesn't even know about their existence (there's an RSS feed avaliable here, y'know).

Rich does not aim for D&D geeks exclusively, neither present nor future. This story is for everyone, with the exception of early strips which are much less ambitious.

The fact that most readers don't know anything about D&D is not a problem. A comic is written in such a way that they don't need to know, as evidenced by dozens of forum posters who admitted that they knew nothing about D&D and have been reading the comic for a long time without feeling any need to know. They missed some jokes, but the story didn't suffer from it.

[nohamotyo]

We might be seeing that. Or we might be seeing a scenario where V is still trapped under the rubble and Durkon remains out of spells; even if dusk will come soon, he'll still need an hour of uninterrupted meditation to prepare spells, and where the scene will belong to Roy, Elan, and Haley. As it should be.

It would be more thematically appropriate for V, after being out of action and unable to help the Order while in the pyramid, to help defend--or even save--the Order from Tarquin's army. I think Elan and Haley have fulfilled most of their plot role in this fight.

[AKA_Bait]

It would be more thematically appropriate for V, after being out of action and unable to help the Order while in the pyramid, to help defend--or even save--the Order from Tarquin's army. I think Elan and Haley have fulfilled most of their plot role in this fight.

Seems in keeping with the "time to learn that arcane might isn't all it's cracked up to be" theme for V's arc for V to be trapped under the rubble unable to escape until s/he can prepare new spells too.

[Psyren]

debunking individual arguments is fun

It most certainly is, so here we go:

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I can remember it being a plot point only once - V vs Cloister.

There was also Durkon's Mass Death Ward Complete With Back Door, Xykon's Moderately Inescapable Forcecage, Malack's Long-Duration Protection From Sun, Redcloak's laundry list of homebrewed phylactery-protection spells, Xykon's magic ring, and who knows what else he's been cooking up off-panel.

Well, classic schools that I find referenced most often are elemental - you know, Fire, Water, Air, Earth and whatever author feels like adding. Lots of magic systems limit the caster to one chosen or at least restrict him from taking the opposite (D&D is pretty lenient here, by the way).

The point though is that you have to explain all of that. 4-Elements system? What makes Fire different from Water, or Air, and what relation does that choice have to the characters? Whereas here, we aren't told what Evocation is, or Conjuration, or Transmutation but we know instantly what V's capabilities (or lack thereof) can be. We also easily see the relation between his favored school (Evocation) and his personality.

This is all saved real estate.

From the game point of view, yes, they need healing. From the game point of view, there HAS to be a healer in the group. From the story point of view? They are badass enough that they don't get that heavily injured. Or they can have superhero-style regeneration.

That robs the story of LOTS of drama. Elan got impaled by his brother's treachery? Oh never mind, they're all badasses, that was just a flesh wound. Elan got near-fatally-poisoned by an assassin's shurikens? No need for Roy to to put on the belt that made him come to terms with Miko's horrible personality, Elan would have survived anyway. Samantha brought the entire party to death's door? Who needs tension as her father stands over the defeated Order, they all just came to because it was a series of singes and scratches. Without Durkon's role, none of these scenes would have the impact they did.

Or, I dunno, there can be someone other than cleric who can heal.

Which leads to more pointless exposition. "Priests heal" is a very well-established fantasy trope; without it, you have questions like "who has healing powers? Was it chance, or did they actively learn it? If it's learned, why did no one else learn it?" And if it's not learnable, then the person who has them is functionally identical to the "cleric," only you need pointless exposition just to say "this guy is the cleric."

Not to mention Durkon's other abilities. Frequently he takes on the role of backup melee, but his ability to do that is wrapped right up in the cleric class as a whole. With another system, you need to explain "how come he can wear armor and use a shield while casting spells? Why can't Vaarsuvius do that? Why can't Roy do that? Can Elan use a shield with his magic too?" etc.

Wuh? It's magic. Namely, it's magic that their opponents can, that they can't is pretty mundane. It doesn't require explanation. If it becomes a plot point why they can't, sure, it will be explained

It is a plot point, seeing as how the bad guys being able to teleport gets them in and out of scenes quickly.

Why must magic shops be a thing? Why must research be so avaliable as to be able to do anything?

I gave the plot purposes of research above.

Huh. I don't remember why, I don't know a D&D rule that forbids vir from this. I just took it for given that ve can't, because if ve could, ve certainly would. So it works pretty well without explanation.

Only if you're capable of switching your brain off and not questioning anything. As you may have noticed, the folks reading this comic tend to be the analytical sort.

Look, you claim that using D&D magic system requires less explanation, because readers are already familiar with it. Problem is, they aren't. Rich does not write his comic for D&D geeks exclusively, therefore, magic requires just as much explanation as it would with custom system.

As others have pointed out, D&D rules are freely available and ubiquitous enough that even those readers unfamiliar with them can satisfy their curiosity (and gain a greater appreciation for the work as a whole) quite easily.

The fact that most readers don't know anything about D&D

[citation needed]

It's a fantasy webcomic. Knowledge of what D&D is, is almost certainly a safe assumption for the majority.

[BlackDragonKing]

Seems in keeping with the "time to learn that arcane might isn't all it's cracked up to be" theme for V's arc for V to be trapped under the rubble unable to escape until s/he can prepare new spells too.

I don't know, there's such a thing as hammering that lesson too hard.

"Arcane power is only ever useful if you're a bad guy" is where it risks going if V constantly doesn't get to to jack with those spells she's spent decades to centuries learning while Xykon has had an extremely successful career doing nothing BUT blasting things indiscriminately.

"Arcane power can't solve everything" is a good lesson to have; OotS does take apart the notion that Wizards are basically omnipotent in D&D or that being a martial class like a fighter is a terrible long-term decision if you have the capacity to be a caster, but at the same time Roy's decisions to eschew arcane power for his heritage as a fighter over his father's snobbery aren't really that meaningful if the narrative goes on to punish every other wizard in the series, including the one on Roy's side, for using arcane power at all.

There is an important difference between keeping V from being able to sweep aside all conflict with a wave of her hand and needing to contrive so that the good guys NEVER have arcane magic on their side going into a fight while the enemy's regularly got an arcane and a divine caster on hand.

[TRH]

I don't know, there's such a thing as hammering that lesson too hard.

"Arcane power is only ever useful if you're a bad guy" is where it risks going if V constantly doesn't get to to jack with those spells she's spent decades to centuries learning while Xykon has had an extremely successful career doing nothing BUT blasting things indiscriminately.

"Arcane power can't solve everything" is a good lesson to have; OotS does take apart the notion that Wizards are basically omnipotent in D&D or that being a martial class like a fighter is a terrible long-term decision if you have the capacity to be a caster, but at the same time Roy's decisions to eschew arcane power for his heritage as a fighter over his father's snobbery aren't really that meaningful if the narrative goes on to punish every other wizard in the series, including the one on Roy's side, for using arcane power at all.

There is an important difference between keeping V from being able to sweep aside all conflict with a wave of her hand and needing to contrive so that the good guys NEVER have arcane magic on their side going into a fight while the enemy's regularly got an arcane and a divine caster on hand.

This. Besides, if V had to wait 8 more hours to prepare spells, then Tarquin would get sick of waiting and just kill the Order himself. They really, really don't have that kind of time.

[zimmerwald1915]

"Arcane power is only ever useful if you're a bad guy" is where it risks going if V constantly doesn't get to to jack with those spells she's spent decades to centuries learning while Xykon has had an extremely successful career doing nothing BUT blasting things indiscriminately.

Robert Howard managed to build a whole series off this theme, and it goes back much further than that.

[Liliet]

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It most certainly is, so here we go:

There was also Durkon's Mass Death Ward Complete With Back Door, Xykon's Moderately Inescapable Forcecage, Malack's Long-Duration Protection From Sun, Redcloak's laundry list of homebrewed phylactery-protection spells, Xykon's magic ring, and who knows what else he's been cooking up off-panel

Mass Death Ward counts, all the others do not. They could as well have been already existing rare spells, nothing would have changed for the plot.

The point though is that you have to explain all of that. 4-Elements system? What makes Fire different from Water, or Air, and what relation does that choice have to the characters? Whereas here, we aren't told what Evocation is, or Conjuration, or Transmutation but we know instantly what V's capabilities (or lack thereof) can be. We also easily see the relation between his favored school (Evocation) and his personality.

No, we do not. We see a correlation between vir chosen spells and vir personality, that's true, but for readers who don't know about DnD (see below) "chosen school" means nothing but "some reason why V doesn't have Teleport".

Four Elements system, on the other hand, doesn't require much explanation. "Fiery personality", "Airhead", "Close to earth" - these three are pretty much self-evident. There is some ambiguity with water, but since it's the fourth element, it can hardly be confused with any other.

The distinction of Black magic / White magic is also quite common, and requires even less explanation, even when it is subverted and good guys are on the Dark side (quite common in Russian fantasy).

That robs the story of LOTS of drama. Elan got impaled by his brother's treachery? Oh never mind, they're all badasses, that was just a flesh wound. Elan got near-fatally-poisoned by an assassin's shurikens? No need for Roy to to put on the belt that made him come to terms with Miko's horrible personality, Elan would have survived anyway. Samantha brought the entire party to death's door? Who needs tension as her father stands over the defeated Order, they all just came to because it was a series of singes and scratches. Without Durkon's role, none of these scenes would have the impact they did.

...seriously.

You are telling me that the avaliability of healing in the story robs it of much drama.

I would say that you are trolling, but I don't really thinks so.

It's the other way round. Really. Without healing, every dodge from the enemy's blow becomes drama, because if you are wounded, it will both limit your options in ongoing combat (something not reflected in DnD at all) and have long-term consequenses. It will not be brushed off like no big deal. Hell, you can even die after the combat from blood loss or infection, even if you killed your opponent.

Where's the drama with Elan getting impaled if we already know that he's a high level DnD character and won't die from one blow?

Oh, and having/needing antidote for a poison has NOTHING to do with magic healing.

I've always seen in fiction that magic healing is either wish fulfillment (when it's commonplace) or plot device (when its avaliability is restricted). And the more restricted it is, the more the drama.

Which leads to more pointless exposition. "Priests heal" is a very well-established fantasy trope; without it, you have questions like "who has healing powers? Was it chance, or did they actively learn it? If it's learned, why did no one else learn it?" And if it's not learnable, then the person who has them is functionally identical to the "cleric," only you need pointless exposition just to say "this guy is the cleric."

No.

No, really not identical.

Cleric is someone who worships a deity or a principle. This class/archetype comes with a lot of limitations bound with faith. When the deity is someone like Zeus, Hades or Aphrodite (or however the hell her name is spelled), there's no reason to assume they have access to healing magic.

Healer is someone who has healing magic. He may not have any faith at all. He can be agnostic, or flat-earth atheist, or just atheist in a godless world. Even in DnD bards and rangers can also heal without any connection to the clerics.

Also, I've only ever seen healing bound with gods in DnD and DnD-based books. Everywhere else they are completely independent.

Well, there are also Christianity-based works, where saints can heal by God's will, but this is something completely unrelated to DnD-style pagan cleric.

Not to mention Durkon's other abilities. Frequently he takes on the role of backup melee, but his ability to do that is wrapped right up in the cleric class as a whole. With another system, you need to explain "how come he can wear armor and use a shield while casting spells? Why can't Vaarsuvius do that? Why can't Roy do that? Can Elan use a shield with his magic too?" etc.

This does not need any explanation. Durkon can do this, V can't, Durkon is more powerful warrior, it's obvious. You can as well ask "Why does Roy wield greatsword while Haley uses bow? Why not the other way round?" Everyone does what he was taught; DnD provides rules for determining who was taught what, but for explaining that a backstory is sufficient.

Well, one can make a point that DnD allows for creating characters without any backstory and personality, limiting them to their character sheets. But this is not what a good story needs.

It is a plot point, seeing as how the bad guys being able to teleport gets them in and out of scenes quickly.

I can't count in how many stories bad guys had access to teleport magic and good guys didn't, and it never got any explanation other than "They are powerful and vile wizards who draw upon sources dangerous and forbidden!"

Only if you're capable of switching your brain off and not questioning anything. As you may have noticed, the folks reading this comic tend to be the analytical sort.

As others have pointed out, D&D rules are freely available and ubiquitous enough that even those readers unfamiliar with them can satisfy their curiosity (and gain a greater appreciation for the work as a whole) quite easily.

I feel that either you haven't read much non-DnD fantasy fiction, or it's just that we come from different cultures. I have been reading fantasy since 11 or 12 years old (not counting fairy tales, Astrid Lindgren's books and so on), and I only got to learning DnD rules when I was 18. I did know about the existence of such system but it wouldn't help me understand what's the matter with all these schools.

Also, I know a lot of fantasy readers and writers (there's a Russian-speaking writing community) who have no interest in role-playing games at all and DnD specifically. Seriously. Prime example would be my parents, but I also meet a lot of such folk in the internet. Some of them know about DnD, others don't at all, but point is, there are many people (including those who I personally know) who would gladly read OotS but would never even try to research some vaguely-related independent rules system.

And in most fantasy that I've ever read the magic system is never explained and detailed nearly as much as in DnD. Only plot-critical points are explained, such as who gets which magic and how can other people determine who can do what.


As for readers being "analytical sort"... you may have noticed just how much Giant is irritated by rules nitpicking. Nitpicking and analyzing characters' motives and possible plot developments is BOTH much more fun and much more "on topic" for a story.


I'll try to illustrate my point about not needing explanations by retelling the first chapter of a very good Russian fantasy book.

Spoiler

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A noble bard (as in, has some noble title) arrives to a small village and learns that they have a problem. Their local witch has been accused of killing a young girl with Forbidden magic by the mother of said girl, who took the matters to a church court. Everyone but that woman is certain that the witch couldn't have done it because she's not that sort of person, and the witch herself has been in some sort of coma ever since the girl died.
It doesn't take much in a local court to prove Forbidden magic; actually, it's quite hard to prove the opposite, especially given the circumstances of the girl's death (ripped apart but not eaten by some unknown monster). If the villagers don't manage to prove that they did NOT give shelter to a user of Forbidden magic, there will be some very nasty consequences. Actually, just giving a shelter to any unauthorised magic-user is a punishable offence, but this is something they really did and can take.
Our bard decides to help and, being more familiar with the local legal system than villagers, by asking exact questions (he was invited to the court as a prosecutor/defender/jury due to being noble) proves that even if the witch used Forbidden magic, villagers couldn't have known that. But the matter of her using said magic to kill a girl still stands.
At this moment, another, much more high-standing noble arrives to the scene. One of the villagers had run off earlier to ask him to take pity and help, and he did. He offers (or rather, orders) to judge the witch by an ancient ritual "gods' court". Point is to shoot arrows at her, and if she is unhurt, she is innocent.
During the ritual our bard uses some magic to protect the girl, but while they indeed do not strike, the visual effect is not what he expected, and he, having analyzed the situation, realises that the other noble must be a magic user too, and that their magic overlapped while they both were trying to save the witch.
As a result, the girl is aquitted because it really looked like the gods protected her, and the prosecutors could not detect magic that was cast so close to them because of a limitation of their magic detector.
A bard and a noble then proceed to travel further, taking the girl with them.


Do you really need explanation of what exactly "Forbidden" magic was and what exactly did the bard and the noble do, or even how exactly it looked, or what access to magic did the local prosecutors have, to empathise with the story?