SW Saga Edition Thread 2: The Sith Lords

[Nerd-o-rama]

I have a question that might be stupid.

Why isn't Force Training a bonus feat for Jedi? I mean...it's kind of half of what the class is about. I'd like to know if there's a good gameplay reason why it shouldn't be a Jedi bonus feat before I houserule the game to conform to my puny mortal logic.

[Alejandro]

I have a question that might be stupid.

Why isn't Force Training a bonus feat for Jedi? I mean...it's kind of half of what the class is about. I'd like to know if there's a good gameplay reason why it shouldn't be a Jedi bonus feat before I houserule the game to conform to my puny mortal logic.

Because I could make a 7th level human Jedi that, at an extreme, then had the feat 7 times. (Human feat, levels 1 3 and 6 feats, bonus feats 2, 4, and 6.) With an 18 Wisdom, that is 35 uses of Force powers. Load up on Rebuke, Battle Strike/Lightsaber Form powers, Surge, and everything else, and become a highly broken terror, especially at low levels if you spend one of those 7 feats on Skill Focus UTF instead of Force Training.

[kreenlover]

It does make sense unfortunately, although its a right pain in the behind at low levels when you can only get like two force powers (especially if you have a low wisdom)

[Mando Knight]

It does make sense unfortunately, although its a right pain in the behind at low levels when you can only get like two force powers (especially if you have a low wisdom)

It's also a right pain in the behind that you can't expect to own your own set of quality customized gear. You're low level, you're not supposed to treat armies of stormtroopers as a trivial encounter yet.

[kreenlover]

It's also a right pain in the behind that you can't expect to own your own set of quality customized gear. You're low level, you're not supposed to treat armies of stormtroopers as a trivial encounter yet.

...true. So to answer the question, yes there is a very good reason

[Nerd-o-rama]

Based on feedback here, I'm giving the player in question the option to take Force Training as a Jedi bonus feat once, and only once. He's playing a fairly low-wisdom and un-minmaxed character anyway, and he deserves to start with a couple of powers in my book.

Also between an early Force Training and an early Skill Focus: UtF, either one is going to cause some kind of a problem.

[Vertharrad]

The real reason is that jedi aren't the only ones to be Masters of the Force and if you make it a jedi bonus feat your giving a advantage to just jedi while those that don't take jedi but are still Force Masters of their tradition are sol. So it has a common sense and balance reason.

Why doesn't this player wait till 3rd level to take it? And if not an option why not use their 1st lvl feat to take it?

[Nerd-o-rama]

The real reason is that jedi aren't the only ones to be Masters of the Force and if you make it a jedi bonus feat your giving a advantage to just jedi while those that don't take jedi but are still Force Masters of their tradition are sol. So it has a common sense and balance reason.

Why doesn't this player wait till 3rd level to take it? And if not an option why not use their 1st lvl feat to take it?

The player's trying to do a lot of different stuff that's wound up burning a few of his feats on flavor, so I threw him a bone as thanks for (unlike most d20 players I've met) building to concept.

Also I was under the impression that Jedi was the base class for anyone who wanted to train martially with the Force, although now that I think about it a bit harder, that really only fits the Jedi and Sith traditions and their respective offshoots.

[Sidmen]

I just noticed that nobody actually said why it isn't on the Jedi bonus feats list. Not that I don't agree with your decision for a one-time exception to let your player pick it up at 2nd level.

Anyway, the reason is simple: because Jedi get bonus feats every-other level, and because Force Training is an incredibly powerful feat. Letting a high wisdom Jedi gain 4-5 more powers every level (more-or-less) instead of every ~3 levels would be... a bit much.

[Mando Knight]

I just noticed that nobody actually said why it isn't on the Jedi bonus feats list.

...So Alejandro's nobody?

Because I could make a 7th level human Jedi that, at an extreme, then had the feat 7 times. (Human feat, levels 1 3 and 6 feats, bonus feats 2, 4, and 6.) With an 18 Wisdom, that is 35 uses of Force powers. Load up on Rebuke, Battle Strike/Lightsaber Form powers, Surge, and everything else, and become a highly broken terror, especially at low levels if you spend one of those 7 feats on Skill Focus UTF instead of Force Training.

[Vertharrad]

The player's trying to do a lot of different stuff that's wound up burning a few of his feats on flavor, so I threw him a bone as thanks for (unlike most d20 players I've met) building to concept.

Also I was under the impression that Jedi was the base class for anyone who wanted to train martially with the Force, although now that I think about it a bit harder, that really only fits the Jedi and Sith traditions and their respective offshoots.

Nerd-o-rama: Alright, cool. -Hands up- don't shoot me just adding flavor reasons to Alejandros mechanics reasons. and I try to come up with a concept, cliche or not, before making a character.

I would say maybe 1/4 or 1/2 of the traditions are martial...the rest aren't necessarily martial. Luka Sene, Baran Do Sages, Embers of Vahl, Tyia Adepts, Aiing Tii. Compared to Jedi, Sith, Jensaarai, Matukai, Wardens of the Sky, Zeison Sha. And those are just a few examples.

Sidmen: Do I also qualify as noone? Balance reasons aren't the only reasons to restrict stuff, most want to ignore fluff but it's there for a reason.

[Sidmen]

...So Alejandro's nobody?

Apparently.
Yeah I missed that...

Sidmen: Do I also qualify as noone? Balance reasons aren't the only reasons to restrict stuff, most want to ignore fluff but it's there for a reason.

Typically, when someone asks why they should/shouldn't do something on a gaming forum, they want to know "what will break if I make this a bonus feat." No disrespect intended, but I wouldn't have considered your answer particularly helpful if I were in Nerd-o-rama's shoes.

It seems that somehow, I missed 3-4 posts in the conversation. Your answer came much after Alejandro's mechanics one, so it would've been supportive rather than.. well, it was the only direct answer I saw to his Question and I didn't find it - alone - particularly helpful.

Urgh, ignore me. I'll go back to spectating instead of posting - this stuff happens every time I try to post something.

[Alejandro]

I'm not mad, Sidmen. Now I demand you post a build for an Ewok Gladiator. :)

[Blackdrop]

I'm not mad, Sidmen. Now I demand you post a build for an Ewok Gladiator. :)

Wasn't directed at me, but I was bored

Spoiler

Show

(*=Combat exoskeleton is active)

Species: Ewok
Level(s): Soldier 11/Gladiator 9

Attributes:
-STR: 20(22*)(17-2)(+5)
-DEX: 14(12+2)
-CON: 18(+5)
-INT: 8
-WIS: 11
-CHA: 8

Attack Bonus:
-Melee: 25(26*) (26(27*) with Advanced Melee Weapons)
-Ranged: 22

Damage Bonus:
-Melee: 16/21(17/23*) (18/23(19/25*) with Advanced Melee Weapons)
-Ranged: 10

Defenses:
-Fortitude: 28
-Reflex: 30
-Will: 20

Skills: Endurance(+19), Initiative[F](+22)

Talents: Armored Defense, Brutal Attack, Devastating Melee Smash, Distracting Attack, Improved Armor Defense, Juggernaut, Melee Smash, Penetrating Attack, Shield Expert, Unstoppable, Weapon Specialization: Advanced Melee Weapons

Feats: Accelerated Strike, Armor Proficiencies: Light/Medium, Cleave, Critical Strike, Double Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Damage Threshold, Power Attack, Skill Focus: Initiative, Triple Crit, Weapon Focus: Advanced Melee Weapons, Weapon Proficiencies: Advanced Melee Weapons/Simple Weapons

Possessions: Force Pike, Medium Energy Shield, Powered Battle Armor (Internal Power Generator and Powered Exoskeleton)

Spoiler: "Level-by-Level Breakdown

Show

Levels 1-7
Soldier 01: Feats[Standard(Weapon Proficiency: Advanced Melee Weapons), Class(Armor Proficiencies: Light/Medium, Weapon Proficiency: Simple)], Talents[Melee Smash]
Soldier 02: Feats[Weapon Focus: Advanced Melee Weapons]
Soldier 03: Feats[Improved Damage Threshold], Talents[Weapon Specialization: Advanced Melee Weapons]
Soldier 04: Ability Score[+1 Str, +1 Con], Feats[Power Attack]
Soldier 05: Talents[Armored Defense]
Soldier 06: Feats[Standard(Powerful Charge), Class(Skill Focus: Initiative)]
Soldier 07: Talents[Improved Armor Defense]
Gladiator 01: Ability Score[+1 Str, +1 Con), Talents[Brutal Attack: Advanced Melee Weapons]
Gladiator 02: Feats[Double Attack], Unflinching(1/encounter)
Gladiator 03: Talent[Juggernaut]
Gladiator 04: Unflinching(2/encounter)
Gladiator 05: Ability Score[+1 Str, +1 Con). Feats[Cleave], Talents[Distracting Attack]
Gladiator 06: Unflinching(3/encounter)
Soldier 08: Feats[Great Cleave]
Soldier 09: Talents[Devastating Melee Smash], Feats[Critical Strike]
Soldier 10: Ability Score[+1 Str, +1 Con), Feats[Accelerated Strike]
Soldier 11: Talents[Penetrating Attack: Advanced Melee Weapons]
Gladiator 07: Feats[Triple Crit], Talents[Shield Expert]
Gladiator 08: Unflinching(4/encounter)
Gladiator 09: Ability Score[+1 Str, +1 Con), Talents[Unstoppable]

Books Used: Star Wars Saga Edition Core, Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, Scum and Villainy

[Alejandro]

Wasn't directed at me, but I was bored

And his name will be Teddy Wreckspin.

[Blackdrop]

So, does anyone know if there was ever any comment on how Acute Senses talent and the Heightened Awareness racial trait interact? Since it seems like a fairly large bit of oversight that races that supposedly have very good awareness have to essentially waste a talent to advance into the Awareness talent tree.

[Waar]

So, does anyone know if there was ever any comment on how Acute Senses talent and the Heightened Awareness racial trait interact? Since it seems like a fairly large bit of oversight that races that supposedly have very good awareness have to essentially waste a talent to advance into the Awareness talent tree.

Having more than 1 (free) reroll for a skill is an immense benefit (when using that skill, if you have decent odds of succes), even if it is not take best result. So yeah multiple rerolls "stack" (if you did not like your first reroll, just reroll again).

edit: see the ewok species feats from rebellion era campagin guide for an example of rerolls from different sources stacking.

[Blackdrop]

Or the Rodian feat, which does the same thing. But with Perception.

Well, this has been Osiris' derp moment of the day, brought to you in part by Star Wars Saga Edition.

[Alejandro]

Are proton torpedoes starship area effect weapons, or single target only? They are listed as having a burst area, but this is character area or starship?

[Mando Knight]

Are proton torpedoes starship area effect weapons, or single target only? They are listed as having a burst area, but this is character area or starship?

The area attack for a proton torpedo is character scale only. Were it starship scale, the blast would be monstrously enormous for a fighter-carried weapon.

One might try to make an argument for allowing it the area attack, but that would mean allowing a pair of X-Wings to take out an entire TIE fighter complement by firing a pair of torpedoes at their Star Destroyer mother ship. Point-Blank range would be within the torpedo's splash radius.

[Waar]

Are proton torpedoes starship area effect weapons, or single target only? They are listed as having a burst area, but this is character area or starship?

Unless explicitly stated otherwise, it is safe to assume burst and splash weapons refers to character scale area attacks. (one battery fire option, a maneuver and gravity well generators are notable exeptions)

[Ahrimon]

Quick question. Are there any reliable ways to deny an oppenent his dexterity or cause him to be flat footed? I know the whole sneak attacker schtick isn't reliable in Saga, but I do enjoy exercises in creating playable characters with a unique schtick. Preferably with the basic schtick in blace by level 5, but that's not a hard rule of mine. Ways to do it in melee are prefered, but I'll take ranged as well.

[Waar]

Quick question. Are there any reliable ways to deny an oppenent his dexterity or cause him to be flat footed? I know the whole sneak attacker schtick isn't reliable in Saga, but I do enjoy exercises in creating playable characters with a unique schtick. Preferably with the basic schtick in blace by level 5, but that's not a hard rule of mine. Ways to do it in melee are prefered, but I'll take ranged as well.

combat trickery (unkown regions, feat), blind (jedi Academy, force Power), as well as a martial arts training feat (from GaW, unarmed only, name escapes me at the moment) all do what you want, Sentinels gambit from KoToR (jedi talent) also works (but only against opponents with a darkside score over 0, iirc).

And they are all iirc available before level 5.

Hope that helps

[Deadtissue]

I am looking for a set of commonly used house rules for a D20 SW Saga campaign I am looking to start up in the near future. I played in a game last year and had a ball so I want to run a campaign for some friends.

I want to take advantage of the GitP experience pool to collect some house rules that make the game more fun.

I have seen the others that provide the option of choosing a Skill training instead of a feat/talent of the new class when multi-classing, limiting access to Skill focus until 4th level, and including Armor Defense talent with every Proficiency.

What other house rules are out there that add to the game?

[Dienekes]

Alright mine:

Skill training feat does not require you to pick a class skill.
Skill Focus feat grants +1 that scales up by 1 every odd level to a maximum of +5 at level 9
Multiclassing allows you to pick a skill instead of a feat.
Jump, Swim, and Climb becomes Athletics.
The Soldier class gains Persuasion and Stealth to their class skill list (the warrior class can't intimidate really?). This one was suggested by one of the creator.
Everyone can choose to get armor or class to their Reflex Defense. Taking the talent that does that instead allows you to add your class + 1/2 your armor bonus.

Probably more if I remember them later.

Later:
Fractional base attack bonus, rounded down. So Scout, Scoundrel, and Noble get +.75 to their base attack bonus every level. So even if they multiclass a level 1 Scout / level 1 Noble / level 1 Scoundrel gets a base attack bonus of +2, just as if they were going straight in any of those classes.

Condition Track killer. This is a build to watch out for. Basically all it does is one shot everyone down the condition track. While it's not a hard and fast rule, it's generally the gentleman's agreement in my games that abilities that move the opponent down the condition track do not stack, except with normal and stun damage. So in practice stunning can move a target 3 down the CT while normal damage plus an ability can move it two.

[kreenlover]

I like to do what Mark suggested: give the players two force points per session. Represent these with (my idea) little lego lightsabers if you have them.
Give them two each in 'good guy' colours and one red one each. When they have spent the first two they can spend the red one. Dark side score is increased by one and they get to keep that red one for the next time need it.
This allows for infinite force points but also infinite dark side. Really ramps up the whole 'The dark side is fast and easy' type of feeling

[Jarred Stone]

Amateur GM here, guys, and having a huge dilenma:

My player's party is formed by a keldorian jedi consular, a human jedi guardian, a lurmen engineer/pilot (noble and rogue) and a replicant (droid who looks and feel like a human) soldier.

Everything looks fine in the party, the Force users are playing around whit the mystic side of the story and stuff about siths and ancient story; the lurmen is feeling great piloting mechs and custom droids and always being the "party monkey" (no pun intended... really XD) and the soldier is, apparently, enjoying being like Terminator in space. Or, at least, that it what I thought.

There are some hostilities between the non-Force users and the Force-users. I am afraid they feel like second-class characters in front of the jedis, even when I totally banned stuff like "Focus Use of the Force" for balance issues. In the case of the engineer, he just shrugs and enjoy the mech and space-ship stuff. The soldier, however, in spite the fact I throw at him crazy persecutions, brawl fights and situations which dangerously looks like The Mercenaries' films, still looks with envy those jedis because "they could have done it better with their ****ing powers."

In the case of the jedis, the consular is just sitting quietly in the back-seat, trying to rely only on his persuasion and diplomacy checks instead of Force powers... at least, until someone shoot a blaster. In that case, the agressor is utterly damned. And, on the other hand, the guardian is just trying to being some kind of Anakin Skywalker (you know, the kind of players who wants to hang on the edge between light side and dark side).

Well, the real problem came when the consular learned Force's Light. On the table, I made a joke about the consular making a TPK by accident in the case he activates it in by accident. Almost every players except the consular has a Dark Side point already, by accepting Dark Side's temptations at least once. The soldier's player just laughed because he could be surely the only survivor of that... Smile which got erased when I told him he would be surely affected too.

And this is how **** hitted the fan.

He is blaming me that, since he is a droid (actually, a replicant ala Blade Runner), he shouldn't have any dark side points and not being affected by any Force-power except the ones based on telekinesis because he isn't alive. I find it funny because he asked me to play a replicant because he wanted to roleplay a droid which didn't feel like a mere objetc (in other words, he can express feels).

After this wall of text, my questions:

1.- Does replicant and hero droids have Dark Side points. From my experience from KotOR, HK-47 was practically an example about a Dark Side sentient droid but, maybe there are special rules for droid heroes about that.

2.- Should I accept the soldier's request of making him such "Force isolated"? In that case, which measurements should I take (making him spend a feat, avoiding him to use Force points, etc).

3.- How can I deal with that "Second Class Character" feel the no-Force users have? I mean, I tried to make everyone has their spotlight and area of joy (consular---> Politics, Guardian---> Duel of the Fates again and again, lurmen--->mechs and ships all the way, soldier---->Action ****). But they still feel like that. When hanging out in a pub after a session, the lurmen's player even congratulated me for making him enjoy greatly the game even when he is not a jedi but... Damn, I don't want to be congratulated, I want to make them feel heroes, not second-class NPCs which hangs out with the jedi main characters.

(Funny enough, I didn't force anyone to play another class if they wanted to play jedi)

Thank you for reading all this wall of text =P

[kreenlover]

1. Droid can accrue DS points. End of story.
To go a bit more into that there are many examples of the fact that Droids are a part of the force. The best is 4LOM who begins to use the force (I know, its weird, but don't blame me) Other droids can and do have obvious DS allegiance (Look at IG-88 or HK-47). Since it says nothing about that in either Scavengers Guide to Droids or the Core Rulebook (and the Shadow Droid in Scavengers actually has a DS score!)

2. Make him spend a feat/talent and he can no longer use force points (since you are giving him immunity to an entire set of attacks, and many of the only things that target will). Look at the Yuzzan Vong stats at the back of the book as a guideline.

3. Honestly, you seem to be doing the best you can do without nerfing the Force Users. I'd give the non-force users the option to switch to Jedi if they want, but otherwise, just make sure that they all have their times to shine. Maybe give them more time to shine than the Jedi players if they feel really sad. Best advice I can give about that. I usually do non-force games. Maybe ask the players of the non-Jedi how they feel that the game should go to give them more limelight? Or ask how to make them feel less like side-kicks. Maybe talk to the Jedi as well.
If necessary throw together an adventure with Ysalimari, or lock the Jedi up in ray shielded areas. Make the entire adventure be about the non-force users. Only do this once, or else the Jedi will feel jipped and the non-force will get used to it.
Remember, if you have ysalimari there then they can't use force points either!

Good luck!

[Jarred Stone]

I offered that Yuuzhan Vong's racial trait as a feat to the droid soldier. Now he is worried about his Force Points.

In the other hand, I was thinking about making a little adventure to use a bit of the space-horror genre. Maybe tge fact that the jedis aren't able to use the Force there, could bring more "horror" to that adventure, and free the other players a little with Force's stuff.

Apart of the Yuuzhan Vong and the Ysalimari, are there more creatures which are isolated of the Force, or with an anti-Force field? I could give those traits to a homebrew monster directly, but I always like to include canon stuff if there is already one.

Thanks for the advice and, now I am thinking: Any experience about horror adventures? = D

[kreenlover]

ehh, throw the star wars zombies at 'em for a horror adventure.
Wait. Those are powered by the dark side...

There is the terentatek (Force-immune rancors, do I hear a TPK?) and Talon Karrdes pet hounds (forget what they are called. Vornskyrrs?) which hunt using the force and hunt force sensitives.

For more help with horror you'd do better posting in the general gaming threads thing. Although having a Terentatek and a bunch of the DS zombies hunt them through an abandoned Sith temple on Yavin IV while the spirit of Exar Kun prepares to turn one of them into his slave would be pretty dang terrifying if you ask me
For horror I'd basically go with the whole 'villainy of the DS' thing, and how it is seductive. Have a Jedi fall or even just a normal person fall and show what horrors they are capable of. And then you bring in the zombies and ysalimari. Also, having a Sith s[irit chase them around who has Essence transfer would also be terrifying. Oh, you killed him? He nabs silly NPC #7 and inhabits them. This is the seventh time he had done that. What happens when they run out of NPCs? And is it morally ok to keep using the NPCs for his hosts?

EDIT: Take a look at the Jedi Academy sourcebook for horrific creatures. Droch, Derriphan, Hssiss, marsh haunts, terentateks. They are all freaking terrifying if used correctly