SW Saga Edition Thread 2: The Sith Lords

[Alejandro]

Sure. The kind of sad part though, is that Vader is presented as a 19th level character who is supposed to be a superb pilot and a powerful Sith Lord, but his skills for both of those (+17) are worse than 11th level PCs in my own games. An 18 in the relevant ability score, half character level, trained, and a Skill Focus is +19 for them. Granted, Vader's UtF is reduced because of his cybernetics, but come on. It's partially because all the book NPCs have average to low ability scores, where most PCs tend to have higher ones, especially in their primary attributes, depending on GM style.

[Greyheart]

Hey all, me again. So, one of my players is playing a droid soldier, and we have both agreed that his post manufacturing combat addons include an HK series processor. He has even been roleplaying moments of HK speech and mannerisms. So, my idea is for a sort of Jekyll/Hyde situation, where the processor is exerting more and more influence due to more frequent use. My question is, should I make a separate set of stats for the HK personality if or when it can emerge?

[Alejandro]

Hey all, me again. So, one of my players is playing a droid soldier, and we have both agreed that his post manufacturing combat addons include an HK series processor. He has even been roleplaying moments of HK speech and mannerisms. So, my idea is for a sort of Jekyll/Hyde situation, where the processor is exerting more and more influence due to more frequent use. My question is, should I make a separate set of stats for the HK personality if or when it can emerge?

No. That's really unfair to the non droid PCs. Can one of your human characters claim multiple personality disorder and the other personality is an elite trooper or Sith lord?

Roleplaying is one thing, giving a PC the ability to have entirely different stats and abilities (especially if they are improvements over their normal self) is another.

[kreenlover]

Hey all, me again. So, one of my players is playing a droid soldier, and we have both agreed that his post manufacturing combat addons include an HK series processor. He has even been roleplaying moments of HK speech and mannerisms. So, my idea is for a sort of Jekyll/Hyde situation, where the processor is exerting more and more influence due to more frequent use. My question is, should I make a separate set of stats for the HK personality if or when it can emerge?

If you instead meant to have them go all NPC mode (a la werewolf) then I am all for making new stats.
Make the new stats of high enough level to take on the other PCs and throw them together in a fight where the other PCs have the option to either destroy the droid entirely and defeat it more easily at the cost of losing an ally (and the character of another player) or they can try and slug it out, defeating it via ion damage and the likes, to preserve the internal core.
And of course, if they choose the first option make sure that the droid actually does survive in some way, or there is a new body nearby that the brain can download into.
Anyways, my plot moment aside yes, if they are going to be an NPC ever, you can create new stats, or just use the PC's, depending on how much time and energy you have to spare.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Sure. The kind of sad part though, is that Vader is presented as a 19th level character who is supposed to be a superb pilot and a powerful Sith Lord, but his skills for both of those (+17) are worse than 11th level PCs in my own games. An 18 in the relevant ability score, half character level, trained, and a Skill Focus is +19 for them. Granted, Vader's UtF is reduced because of his cybernetics, but come on. It's partially because all the book NPCs have average to low ability scores, where most PCs tend to have higher ones, especially in their primary attributes, depending on GM style.

First thing I do with Big Named NPCs in any game I run is give them PC-equivalent base attributes for largely this reason. Vader's stats are alright, but I'd probably minmax more into Str and Cha. He also desperately needs Skill Focus (Pilot) if only as a flavor thing.

[Hyena]

Remember my character with incredibly crappy stats? Yeah, I've played him through the first session. He solo'd an encounter by himself. For some reason, the dice favour him, and enemies turn into stormtroopers the moment they target him.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The Force favors the laughably underprepared.

[Angelalex242]

Vader does NOT actually need skill focus pilot. He needs skill focus use the force, though.

And Force Pilot. And probably 18s in Str, Int, Wis, an Cha. (Int for skills, wis for force powers, Cha for as much UTF as he can have. Also bump him to level 20, and remember his natural 18 cha needs to be boosted to 22...ditto, wisdom. I'd probably boost str to 20. (you get up to 10 bonus points at level 20.)

Then Vader is sufficiently scary enough to be called a 'chosen one.' You can just pump him full of lots of Force Powers.

[Nerd-o-rama]

>Anakin/Vader
>Wisdom

Even as a gameplay thing I don't think he actually needs that many Force powers.

[kreenlover]

Yah, Vader has never been a force wizard type.
Palps? Yes. Vader, no.

[Mando Knight]

>Anakin/Vader
>Wisdom

Even as a gameplay thing I don't think he actually needs that many Force powers.

Even if he does, Telekinetic Prodigy is enough for him, since telekinesis is most of his Force powers.

If he has to put down a would-be Force Wizard, then a couple extra uses of Rebuke would be handy, though.

[Waar]

If he has to put down a would-be Force Wizard, then a couple extra uses of Rebuke would be handy, though.

Most of the uses for Rebuke requires the user to be able to beat their own defences with a UTF check, and with the -4 penalty from the cybernetic limbs, Vader has a hard time doing that.

[Alejandro]

Just comes with the territory for the book NPCs. Lando and Han have awful stats too. Especially considering both should have starship manuevers.

Incidentally, I finished most of my Boba Fett rebuild. Soldier 4/Scout 3/Bounty Hunter 2/Elite Trooper 6.

Talents:

Armored Defense
Improved Armored Defense
Acute Senses
Improved Initiative
Hunter's Mark
Mandalorian Glory
Armored Mandalorian
Exotic Weapon Mastery

Feats:

Simple, Pistol, Rifle
Armor, Light and Medium
Skill Training: Survival
Point Blank Shot
Martial Arts I
Precise Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Shot
Charging Fire
Skill Focus: Pilot
Vehicular Combat
Mandalorian Training
Accelerated Strike

Tried to follow the book's version somewhat (same level, some of the same feats) while covering most of what Fett is actually shown to do. For example, he's supposed to fly and handle Slave I alone, but they didn't train him in Mechanics or Use Computer. :/

[Yora]

Aren't pretty much all character stats in all the books garbage? Whenever you read a review of a Saga book, there's lots of praise for all kind of things, followed by "...but the NPC stats are full of errors".

[Waar]

Aren't pretty much all character stats in all the books garbage? Whenever you read a review of a Saga book, there's lots of praise for all kind of things, followed by "...but the NPC stats are full of errors".

I think most stat blocks (>50%) are mechanically correct, however you might want them to be good too .

[Echobeats]

Hi folks. Long time no see.

So, I've joined a Saga game over on the PbP forums, and am trying to work out the stats of the ship we bought (and upgraded) as crewed by us. For example, I know that the Initiative is the pilot's Pilot skill + ship's size mod, and that I add the gunner's BAB to attack rolls. But there are a few stats I'm not sure about: do I change them, and if so how?

Here is the ship after the mechanic was finished with her:

Spoiler: The Celestial Spanner

Show

Final Ship Specs
(all added upgrades in blue)

Vaya-class scout ship
Colossal space transport
Init +1; Senses Perception +5
Defense Ref 17 (flat-footed 11), Fort 24; +11 Armor
hp 90; DR 15; SR 35; Threshold 74
Speed fly 12 squares (max. velocity 700 km/h), fly 3 squares (starship scale)
Ranged light laser canon +3 (see below) and
Ranged light concussion missiles +3 (see below)
Fighting Space 12x12 or 1 square (starship scale); Cover total (crew)
Base Atk +0; Grp +34
Attack Options autofire (light laser canon)
Abilities Str 38, Dex 22, Con--, Int 16
Skills Initiative +1, Mechanics +5, Perception +5, Pilot +1, Use Computer +5
Crew 3 (normal); Passengers 4
Cargo 55 tons, Smuggling Compartment 400 kg; Consumables 1 month; Carried Craft none
Payload 5 light concussion missiles
Hyperdrive x1.5 (backup 15), navicomputer

Light Laser Canon (gunner)
Atk +3, Dmg 3d10x2
Light Concussion Missile (gunner)
Atk +3, Dmg 7d10x2

Spoiler: Details of parts exchanged

Show

Stock Items Sold

x4 hyperdrive = 2 EP and 2,500 credits

Concussion projectile launcher = 2 EP and 750 credits

Total credits after selling replaced parts: 16,250

Total EP for upgrading the ship (including the 1 unused EP): 5 EP

--

Upgrades/Accessories

x1.5 hyperdrive = 3 EP, 12,500 credits

Smuggling compartments (400 kg) = 1 EP, 1,000 credits

light concussion missile launcher = 2 EP, 2,000 credits

1 light concussion missile = 500 credits

And here is her gallant crew:

Spoiler: Her Gallant Crew™

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Role	Relevant statistic
Pilot	Pilot +16
Co-pilot	Pilot +10
Gunner	BAB +4, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Commander	Knowledge (tactics) +9
System Operator	Use Computer +10
Engineer	Mechanics +14

So, what needs to change once we climb aboard. Perception? Grapple? Do I get to add the number given to any skills (e.g. +5 Mechanics, total +19) or do I just replace the number with the relevant crew member's skill bonus?

Many thanks for your help.

[Mando Knight]

So, I've joined a Saga game over on the PbP forums, and am trying to work out the stats of the ship we bought (and upgraded) as crewed by us. For example, I know that the Initiative is the pilot's Pilot skill + ship's size mod, and that I add the gunner's BAB to attack rolls. But there are a few stats I'm not sure about: do I change them, and if so how?

So, what needs to change once we climb aboard. Perception? Grapple? Do I get to add the number given to any skills (e.g. +5 Mechanics, total +19) or do I just replace the number with the relevant crew member's skill bonus?

All of the stats given for a ship are the stats with the ship's standard generic crew. If you put characters into a ship, the stats change like so:

Pilot is the pilot's modified Pilot skill: Pilot + size mod + Ship's Dex. Thus, a TIE Defender (Huge for -2, and an unbelievable 28 Dex for +9) adds +4 to the pilot's skill, a stock X-Wing is +1 (Gargantuan is -5, 22 Dex is +6), and the Vaya-class is -4 (same Dex as an X-Wing, but Colossal is -10). This applies to all Pilot checks, including Initiative.

The ship's Int is added to the gunner's BAB (and other relevant modifiers, such as Weapon Focus), and if the gun is marked as being used by the pilot, the pilot gains +2 to the attack if trained.

Perception is the characters' own Perception modifiers.
Reflex Defense is 10 + armor or pilot level (or, if Colossal (frigate) or larger and captained by an Officer with Legendary Commander, the captain's level + ½ armor) + vehicle's Dex + size + misc (the Dodge feat applies here, as does the Ace Pilot bonus to vehicle defense)
Fortitude Defense is unchanged
Grapple is pilot's BAB + vehicle's Str + size (a different modifier from the size penalties to Pilot or Reflex: +5/10/15/20/25/30/35 from Large to Colossal (station), respectively)
Other Skills are just the relevant character's skill modifiers, except that Use Computer checks gain the vehicle's Int modifier as a bonus if its computer's attitude to the user is Helpful.

[Echobeats]

Mando Knight, you are fantastic. Thank you so much.

I have rejigged the ship's stats below, with red indicating numbers I have changed to take account of the crew. I've also added weapon range tables. Would you have a moment to look this over for errors? We are CL4 and the Pilot has BAB +4. I'm assuming our computer is helpful.

Spoiler: The Celestial Spanner

Show

The Celestial Spanner
Vaya-class scout ship
Colossal space transport
Condition: Used
Init +12; Senses Perception as crew
Defense Ref 17 (flat-footed 11; immobile 6), Fort 24; +11 Armor
hp 90; DR 15; SR 35; Threshold 74
Speed fly 12 squares (max. velocity 700 km/h), fly 3 squares (starship scale)
Fighting Space 12x12 or 1 square (starship scale); Cover total (crew)
Base Atk +4; Grp +38
Attack Options autofire (light laser canon)
Abilities Str 38, Dex 22, Con--, Int 16
Skills Initiative +12, Mechanics +14, Perception as crew, Pilot +12, Use Computer +13
Crew 3 (normal); Passengers 4
Cargo 55 tons, Smuggling Compartment 400 kg; Consumables 1 month; Carried Craft none
Payload 5 light concussion missiles
Hyperdrive x1.5 (backup x15), navicomputer

Light Laser Canon (gunner)
Atk +7, Dmg (3d10+2) x2

Spoiler: Range

Show

Light Laser Cannon	Point Blank	Short	Medium	Long
Squares: up to (starship scale)	1	2	5	10
Squares: up to (character scale)	150	300	750	1,500
Attack modifier	+1	-2	-5	-10
Damage modifier	+1 before multiplier	—	—	—

Light Concussion Missile (gunner)
Atk +7, Dmg (7d10+2) x2

Spoiler: Range

Show

Light Concussion Missile	Point Blank	Short	Medium	Long
Squares: up to (starship scale)	3	6	15	30
Squares: up to (character scale)	450	900	2,250	4,500
Attack modifier	+1	-2	-5	-10
Damage modifier	+1 before multiplier	—	—	—

Also, do you happen to know where the RAW is for adding the ship's Dex to Pilot checks? I don't see it under either the Pilot skill or the Vehicle Combat Stats section.

Many thanks.

[Mando Knight]

Unfortunately, it's not mentioned explicitly. However, since all other skills, including ones that are usable in vehicles, use your ability modifier, and Use Computer allows you to add your computer's modifier as an extra bonus if it's Helpful, it can be assumed that Pilot works the same way. The official errata/clarifications thread from the old WotC boards also implies this, using the same language (your Skill modifier) for both Pilot and not-Pilot skills with respect to vehicle use, and adds in "+ vehicle Dexterity modifier" to the Pilot check.

The ship looks fine, but you sell ship components at 1/4 of their original cost, not 1/2.

[Matticussama]

Speaking of ships, I've come across a curious part of Saga space combat that seems lacking. Are there any rules for targeting specific ship systems (shields, engines, etc) with ion weapons - or any other weapons for that matter? It is a big deal in the E.U. to be able to target specific systems to disable enemy ships or keep them from getting away.

I know ion weapons and other attacks dropping a ship's condition track abstracts some of this, but I wasn't sure if there were rules on disabling specific systems that I hadn't been able to find. I've looked thru the Core Rulebook and Starships of the Galaxy without any luck, and figured if the rules existed someone in this thread with more experience could probably point me in the right direction.

[Mando Knight]

Starship maneuvers do allow you to target shields or engines, and you can use them with ion cannons.

[Matticussama]

I must have missed some of those maneuvers. I'll reread them in detail, thanks!

Are there starship maneuvers in any additional books, or are they all in Starships of the Galaxy?

[Angelalex242]

Between all the types of Telekinetic Powers there (there's a boatload of them) battle strike, dark rage, farseeing, and so on, Vader doesn't need to be a 'force wizard' to be able to use the force in a rather large variety of ways.

After all, the dude's the 'Chosen One.' With 'more midichlorians then Yoda or Palpatine.' The numbers on his sheet should reflect that.

[Greyheart]

Hey all! Sorry for not replying in a timely manner, real life got in the way. So, the situation with my player's droid character is that I would take control should the HK personality gain control of the body. However, the droid was not originally a combat model, but a medic/caretaker for an Imperial official of some sort. He grew paranoid as his condition worsened and modified the droid to serve as a body guard, including the processor. So, for NPC stats, should I stick with the PC's own stats or go with the suggestion of a confrontation worthy opponent?

[Mando Knight]

If the combat persona is an NPC (and uses a separate processor), then I'd suggest assigning the HK personality its own talents, skills, feats, and Int/Wis/Cha scores, but force it to use the same HP and physical capabilities as the base persona.

If it doesn't have its own processor, then it's just a droid with DID and shouldn't have any separate stats.

[Alejandro]

Hey all! Sorry for not replying in a timely manner, real life got in the way. So, the situation with my player's droid character is that I would take control should the HK personality gain control of the body. However, the droid was not originally a combat model, but a medic/caretaker for an Imperial official of some sort. He grew paranoid as his condition worsened and modified the droid to serve as a body guard, including the processor. So, for NPC stats, should I stick with the PC's own stats or go with the suggestion of a confrontation worthy opponent?

What does the player do when their PC becomes an NPC? Is this something that would only happen once and they would have to make a new PC, or does it bounce back and forth? If the latter is true, what do they have to play while their droid is being an NPC?

[kreenlover]

What does the player do when their PC becomes an NPC? Is this something that would only happen once and they would have to make a new PC, or does it bounce back and forth? If the latter is true, what do they have to play while their droid is being an NPC?

Flash games. In the corner. While they cry about their character being dismantled.
GM: Take my sarcasm as advice. They should not be doing the above.
I always give my players the GMPC I keep on hand for such occasions (that poor noble...when I play her she never hits an enemy. When the players play her she also never hits an enemy. In fact, all she really does is act as a low HP meatshield)
Or draft up another suitable NPC that can become a PC when needed.
Or, my favourite idea, set that player up in a separate adventure inside the labyrinthine computerized defenses of the HK processor; have his brain fight its way back to the core (and control) with Tron style programs running around shooting at him. (I have actually done something similar before; its fun)

[Greyheart]

Flash games. In the corner. While they cry about their character being dismantled.
GM: Take my sarcasm as advice. They should not be doing the above.
I always give my players the GMPC I keep on hand for such occasions (that poor noble...when I play her she never hits an enemy. When the players play her she also never hits an enemy. In fact, all she really does is act as a low HP meatshield)
Or draft up another suitable NPC that can become a PC when needed.
Or, my favourite idea, set that player up in a separate adventure inside the labyrinthine computerized defenses of the HK processor; have his brain fight its way back to the core (and control) with Tron style programs running around shooting at him. (I have actually done something similar before; its fun)

I had actually discussed this with the player before, but he says he doesn't really enjoy solo sessions. Although, I suppose I could have the other players giving him assistance by using Use Computer and hacking in helpful stuff? Oooooh, or I can have them go see a droid expert who asks them to participate in his virtual environment prototype?! :D

[person29]

Is there any Wealth by level tables for higher than first level characters?

[Mando Knight]

According to the errata/clarifications compilation document, "As a very loose guideline, your wealth at any given level should be something like this: (level x [level -1]) x 2,000 credits, double this for a noble with the Wealth talent."