Shadowrun Topic(Talk & Questions)

[olejars]

How are you not damaging the P.C.s. ? Is there armour stacked so high you can't hurt them or do they just cut down any opposition before its a threat

They have stacked armor (They are using the equivalent to the Red Samurai armor and they also have the full body "under armor" from Arsenal) then if I have any hits then they have the body to soak most if not all the damage.

And then if I do any physical damage, the have the qualities to mitigate the damage and not be affected by the damage for a couple of damage tracks.

[The Random NPC]

Dwarves (and elves) don't goblinize. Depending on the mana level at the time and place of their birth they are born as either humans or dwarves (elves) and will never change.

Goblinization is for orcs and trolls only.

I thought they did, they just called it something different. UGE maybe? I guess I was wrong.

[LibraryOgre]

I thought they did, they just called it something different. UGE maybe? I guess I was wrong.

UGE is what they have, but they don't undergo it later in life... they're just born with it.

[DodgerH2O]

They have stacked armor (They are using the equivalent to the Red Samurai armor and they also have the full body "under armor" from Arsenal) then if I have any hits then they have the body to soak most if not all the damage.

And then if I do any physical damage, the have the qualities to mitigate the damage and not be affected by the damage for a couple of damage tracks.

This is a major flaw with Shadowrun as a combat-focused game, which is why I try not to run it as one anymore. You can always give the opposition the same stuff your PCs have. They sound like elite runners, so they should get missions that require someone that good, not missions where the paydata is guarded by standard security goons. If they ask why their enemies suddenly have top of the line body armor and cyberware say that word's gotten out and unless they want a huge reduction in both nuyen and reputation they will be getting much more challenging runs from now on.

Although I'd suggest letting them decimate things in combat, that's what their characters shine at, don't take away the spotlight. But combat should usually be a last resort in a run. Make the run pay only half if they are discovered during it (or leave evidence/bodies), give them problems that can't be solved by katanas and bullets, every so often let them do their thing by slaughtering mooks and then very rarely have them face off against an elite squad (their equals, or betters even.)

[Longes]

They have stacked armor (They are using the equivalent to the Red Samurai armor and they also have the full body "under armor" from Arsenal) then if I have any hits then they have the body to soak most if not all the damage.

And then if I do any physical damage, the have the qualities to mitigate the damage and not be affected by the damage for a couple of damage tracks.

Tear gas. Flashbangs. Tasers. PhysAd wrestlers. Stunbolting spirits of Man. Weird terrain effects (magnetised floor, electricity, sandstorm...). Godbow troll adepts with drug-filled arrows. Enemy hackers. Radiation filled building where they have to wear special suits, which can't be worn over normal armor.

Use your imagination. For every hardass there is a special chisel

EDIT: Hostage situations. Surprise attacks at their homes. Mine fields. Bear traps. Pitfalls with stakes at the bottom. Mystical adepts shapeshifting into burning flying invisible bears. Attrition war (you should implement a limit on how much ammo you can carry for this one). Puzzles. Labyrinths with bear traps and mystical adepts shapeshifting into burning flying invisible bears. Diplomancers. Places with strict dress code.

[LokiRagnarok]

Ok just a suggestion. The Shadowrun world is as full of prejudice as ours, so how about if his family isn't dead but has disowned him. This could be because he Goblinized into a Dwarf and his family are Humanis or maybe its because he's a magician and they think that is heresy of some sort.
So you have a nice, middles class kid who is suddenly homeless and abandoned. The only thing he has going for him is his magical talent. That can get him work. Dangerous, illegal work (but maybe he likes that as its a 'screw you' to his law abiding family) but it can keep him in the life style he's accustomed to.
Also given this betrayal by his family, he's deeply cynical about people. After all if his own family can abandon him how can he trust people to not abandon him ever again. Cats however, cats he trusts. As long as you feed them cats don't throw you out when you change in ways you had no choice about.
( Also might be cool if he's a cat shaman rather than a mage)

Oh, I actually like that idea a lot and I think I might go for it. Thank you

[Longes]

Oh, I actually like that idea a lot and I think I might go for it. Thank you

Dwarfs don't goblinize, so this goes against the canon. You'd be better with "magic - heresy!" idea, or him just being thrown out because he was born as a dwarf. Gives fodder for Prejudiced (Active, Uncommon (Humanis)) quality :)

Personally, I'd go with "Family conviniently died in an accident". Except... Have you seen "Omen" or "Carry"?

[Delta]

One exception: SURGE. One of the possible effects of SURGE is that it can change your metatype, I don't have the books on me so I'm not sure if something's changed about that between editions, but I think with SURGE you could possibly have "mutated" into an elf or dwarf later in life.

[Lord Torath]

Tear gas. Flashbangs. Tasers. PhysAd wrestlers. Stunbolting spirits of Man. Weird terrain effects (magnetised floor, electricity, sandstorm...). Godbow troll adepts with drug-filled arrows. Enemy hackers. Radiation filled building where they have to wear special suits, which can't be worn over normal armor.

Use your imagination. For every hardass there is a special chisel

EDIT: Hostage situations. Surprise attacks at their homes. Mine fields. Bear traps. Pitfalls with stakes at the bottom. Mystical adepts shapeshifting into burning flying invisible bears. Attrition war (you should implement a limit on how much ammo you can carry for this one). Puzzles. Labyrinths with bear traps and mystical adepts shapeshifting into burning flying invisible bears. Diplomancers. Places with strict dress code.

Another thought: Enforce the rules for armor degradation. Hit them with enough sniper rounds and their armor will start losing effectiveness.

By RAW, yes. 3rd fixed that problem and changed the wording of the spell but 2nd seems to have not noticed this problem.

Okay. I guess I can assume they just forgot about Physical Adepts when they were making that spell. I'll be good and not exploit the loophole.

I need to read up on casting spells through foci from astral space.

[comicshorse]

They have stacked armor (They are using the equivalent to the Red Samurai armor and they also have the full body "under armor" from Arsenal) then if I have any hits then they have the body to soak most if not all the damage.

And then if I do any physical damage, the have the qualities to mitigate the damage and not be affected by the damage for a couple of damage tracks.

Everything Longes said ( though maybe without the bear obsession ).
Gas and spells aren't stopped by armour. Paranatural critters with weird powers, Drones with chain guns, anybody know if there are rules for armour piercing bullets (or even DPU rounds) anywhere ?
One trick a old GM of mine used was having standard Corporate guards issued with a shot of Kamikaze ( Shadowtech p 99)for emergencies. Its horrid stuff but if it looks like you're going to be chopped down by Shadowrunners, any chance will be grabbed at.

POSTED BY LORD TORATH
Okay. I guess I can assume they just forgot about Physical Adepts when they were making that spell. I'll be good and not exploit the loophole.

Well done you have a better idea of game balance than some of the designers
One of the Shadowrun supplements from way back describes a Shadowrunning team meeting a bunch of Corp. Physical Adepts who all have Increased Reaction spell locks ( and bullet barrier spell locks and Increased Quickness spell locks, and Combat Sense spell locks and.....)

[Longes]

Everything Longes said ( though maybe without the bear obsession ).

If there aren't invisible firebreathing flying bears mauling your players, how will they know that **** just got real?

[Lord Torath]

One of the Shadowrun supplements from way back describes a Shadowrunning team meeting a bunch of Corp. Physical Adepts who all have Increased Reaction spell locks ( and bullet barrier spell locks and Increased Quickness spell locks, and Combat Sense spell locks and.....)

That was Awakenings 2057. Just finished reading that section myself. They were discussing magic security at Aztechnology, Saeder-Krupp, and the other big corps. Yeah, pretty crazy stuff.

[comicshorse]

I particularly like (?) the bit where its pointed out that these are just average Aztech security guards and not their special troops

[TimeWizard]

Considering Aztech practicesblood magic I'm not surprised their goons are super tough.

[Delta]

Considering Aztech practicesblood magic I'm not surprised their goons are super tough.

That has been overblown at the best of times and has been over for a long while. The "blood cabals" within Aztechnology have lost their influence after "Senor Oscuro" was killed during the Dunkelzahn crisis and that's been what, 17 ingame years ago by now?

[Longes]

Considering Aztech practicesblood magic I'm not surprised their goons are super tough.

Blood Magic isn't even that good. You just resist drain by cutting up some chickens - big deal.

[Necroticplague]

Blood Magic isn't even that good. You just resist drain by cutting up some chickens - big deal.

Blood magic is also a component of cybermancy, which makes some of the toughest SoB's around.

[Delta]

Blood magic is also a component of cybermancy, which makes some of the toughest SoB's around.

Cybermancy is really overblown, too. Sure, it's the toughest you can possibly get by way of cyber/bioware, but a well-trained and equipped mage (or even a physad, given enough karma) still wipes the floor with any cyberzombie.

I'd much rather have 2-3 elite commandos with delta grade implants and positive essence than one cyberzombie. It's a great buzzword to scare people and therefore has a place in shock & awe tactics, but it's not exactly cost efficient.

[LibraryOgre]

Cybermancy is really overblown, too. Sure, it's the toughest you can possibly get by way of cyber/bioware, but a well-trained and equipped mage (or even a physad, given enough karma) still wipes the floor with any cyberzombie.

I'd much rather have 2-3 elite commandos with delta grade implants and positive essence than one cyberzombie. It's a great buzzword to scare people and therefore has a place in shock & awe tactics, but it's not exactly cost efficient.

Which might slowly change. Cyberzombies, especially as came out of Cybertechnology, were a technology in its infancy that had a lot of bugs to be worked out... I mean, they put you in a constant state of seizure, had to occasionally jolt your brain to remind it to keep breathing, and basically left you a walking tank.

Fast forward about 15 years. Alpha grade is no longer a Porsche, or even a Lexus; it's buying a Toyota Matrix instead of a Pontiac Vibe. Deltaware is likely going to be eclipsed soon. SOTA keeps marching on, and all those old cyberzombies are going to go back to the rust bucket.

I agree, the old-style cybermancy will likely go the way of the dodo. But what will replace it? Imagine, for a moment, delta grade everything... new limbs, new torso, new head. Replace all your remaining organs with cultured bioware. Combine it with wireless control via datajack, and you can pack whatever you like into that frame, and still be essence positive.

To say nothing of the possibilities offered by powered armor. Heck, watch the later Pack episodes of Gargoyles... cyberware, genetic engineering, power armor, out and out AI-controlled robotics.

[comicshorse]

Blood Magic isn't even that good. You just resist drain by cutting up some chickens - big deal.

Resitting Drain isn't that bad. Its always nice to be able to chuck spells without taking Drain and every dice you don't have to divert to resist Drain is one you can chuck into casting the spell
That said I never thought Blood Magicians where particularly good, considering the problems attached to that discipline.
No ****ing Irish Path magic now, that was stupidly overpowered (then again the whole 'Tir Na Og' book seemed to have no point apart from going 'look at these overpowered NPC's')

[Longes]

Resitting Drain isn't that bad. Its always nice to be able to chuck spells without taking Drain and every dice you don't have to divert to resist Drain is one you can chuck into casting the spell

Err, right. But this isn't "They have blood magic, so their troops must be awesome". This is "They have blood magic, so their stunbolts are Force 15 now".
I like blood magic effects on adepts though, although they should be powers, instead of initiations.

That said I never thought Blood Magicians where particularly good, considering the problems attached to that discipline.

This is a real problem I have with Shadowrun - runners are expected to be patron saints of nonlethal violence. Why? Why are jaded criminals expected to use stick-n-shocks and tasers? Why would corps be more angry on you for the ammount of corpses, rather than the macguffin you stole? How is "cut a chicken, get drain dice" blood magic is supposed to be ultimate evil? Even if you cut a man for power, you very job revolves around cutting other men for power. And why would Atzlan and other corps use human sacrifices for their research? Yes, human gives more power, but ten chickens are cheaper than a human.

[comicshorse]

How is "cut a chicken, get drain dice" blood magic is supposed to be ultimate evil? Even if you cut a man for power, you very job revolves around cutting other men for power. And why would Atzlan and other corps use human sacrifices for their research? Yes, human gives more power, but ten chickens are cheaper than a human.

You can't use chickens, the sacrifice used in Blood Magic has to be sentient

This is a real problem I have with Shadowrun - runners are expected to be patron saints of nonlethal violence. Why? Why are jaded criminals expected to use stick-n-shocks and tasers? Why would corps be more angry on you for the ammount of corpses, rather than the macguffin you stole?

Well to take your questions in order. Because the sentences for breaking and Entering are much less than for murder. Because if you steal the MacGuffin you piss of say one Corp. executive whose project it is. Kill three security guards and you piss him off and the three guys friends and family. More people mad means more people looking to exact revenge.
Not to mention that if you screw up and are captured by Corp. security, would you prefer to have stunned their friends or killed them (the phrase 'shot trying to escape' springs to mind).
Also for right or wrong, killing is taken as unprofessional in the Shadowrun universe. Employers prefer Runners who can do the job without making waves and attracting attention and leaving trails of bodies that got in the news in their wake.
And lets face it, its not hard not to kill people, between tasers, narcojets and stun spells its just as easy to leave them unconscious as it is to lead them dead.
In a game once we had a new player who was playing a pacifist shaman and so we shifted to non-lethal tactics until we could break him of this habit. In the end though we came round to his way of thinking and went pretty much non-lethal ( We did drop a missile on a Columbian drug lords house once but nobody's perfect)

[Longes]

You can't use chickens, the sacrifice used in Blood Magic has to be sentient

Lol, nope. You are wrong.

While any living creature can be used as a donor, the blood of sapient donors (metahumans and critters with the Sapience ability, such as sasquatches and dragons) is more potent. For each box of Physical Damage inflicted on a sapient donor, the Drain in the subsequent action is reduced by 1. For non-sentient critters, the DV is reduced by 1 for every 3 boxes of damage (possibly less if the donor is significantly smaller than an average human). Spirits can never be donors, even if they are currently possessing a living body. An initiate may use himself as a donor, drawing on his own life force to reduce the Drain of his spells. A blood magician can inflict any desired level of Physical damage on himself.

[comicshorse]

Ah, because we started this debate off the bit in 'Awakenings' I was still using my 2nd Ed books where Blood Magic requires a sentient sacrifice

[Necroticplague]

Cybermancy is really overblown, too. Sure, it's the toughest you can possibly get by way of cyber/bioware, but a well-trained and equipped mage (or even a physad, given enough karma) still wipes the floor with any cyberzombie.

I'd much rather have 2-3 elite commandos with delta grade implants and positive essence than one cyberzombie. It's a great buzzword to scare people and therefore has a place in shock & awe tactics, but it's not exactly cost efficient.

I see you point for magician's, and agree, but I'm going to have to ask about physadepts. What does a physadept have that so much lets him blow through a cyberzombie's defenses to physical that the cyberzombie can't counter with augmentation?
Though I would point out, the mana field around the cyberzombie and fact they're all awakened mean he can considerably soften magic by counterspelling and using things like Absorbtion.

[TheOOB]

Cyberzombies are scary for a number of reasons. First they are just wrong. It's hard to overstate how much in setting a cyber zombie is the antithesis of everything everyone holds dear. Second, they are usually very very skilled and very very well equip. Delta-ware commandos are rare, but a cyberzombie is a nearly immortal delta commando(one who likely already had a long career and gained lots of skills).

[DigoDragon]

I agree, the old-style cybermancy will likely go the way of the dodo. But what will replace it? Imagine, for a moment, delta grade everything... new limbs, new torso, new head. Replace all your remaining organs with cultured bioware. Combine it with wireless control via datajack, and you can pack whatever you like into that frame, and still be essence positive.

One of my players was watching trailers for the new Robocop movie and remarked that this concept would make a great adventure against the PCs. The police unveil the new Robocop program-- an unstoppable machine in the fight against shadowrun crime. And then the runners learn the dark secrets behind how Robocop was put together... a secret project from Megacorp A to get back at Megacorp B's effective runner team for damaging A's projects. Hidden as PR move for the cops to look good on the trid news.

(We did drop a missile on a Columbian drug lords house once but nobody's perfect)

LOL. Yeah, once in a while it's good to get a job that involves getting your gun off. One mission I ran that my players loved was a job to demo a small drug warehouse out in the middle of nowhere. The glee on their faces when they went shopping for explosives was priceless.

Bonus points for causing no casualties among the building's occupants.

[TimeWizard]

I'm new to shadowrun so all I keep hearing in my mind is "Man, tanks aren't OP anymore, you can just buy rocket launchers. Rocket launchers are like what, $80k? you should be able to afford that after a few bank robberies. Tanks are dumb, what you have to watch out for are Navy SEALS and SAS, which are more dangerous"

"But Walmart wont send their Spetnatz after you unless you kill three or more district managers, go with tasers"

[Driderman]

This is a real problem I have with Shadowrun - runners are expected to be patron saints of nonlethal violence. Why? Why are jaded criminals expected to use stick-n-shocks and tasers? Why would corps be more angry on you for the ammount of corpses, rather than the macguffin you stole? How is "cut a chicken, get drain dice" blood magic is supposed to be ultimate evil? Even if you cut a man for power, you very job revolves around cutting other men for power. And why would Atzlan and other corps use human sacrifices for their research? Yes, human gives more power, but ten chickens are cheaper than a human.

Because most of the people working for the Corps are just regular Joes who don't really deserved to get killed, maimed or otherwise brutalized just because they keep an honest job to pay the bills, as opposed to being a mercenary criminal?
Also, because when you start to cross that line where the lives of innocents and collateral damage means nothing to you, you're no better than the corps you profess to fight.
Shadowrun, as far as I read it, has always been more about playing people who have an ideological opposition to a horrible system rather than just being mercs, so the setting sort of expects you to have some form of decency when it comes to killing defense-less wage slaves: Just because they don't have the means or the balls to fight the system doesn't mean you can slaughter them with impunity. After all, that's how the corporate execs think.
And sure, sometimes you're up against an enemy where you can try to rationalize that they're irredeemably evil, but most of the times a lot of ordinary people are in the blast zone and a decent Shadowrunner, one who embraces the ideal of fighting not just for money but for the little man on the street as well, tries to avoid innocents getting killed.

[Longes]

Because most of the people working for the Corps are just regular Joes who don't really deserved to get killed, maimed or otherwise brutalized just because they keep an honest job to pay the bills, as opposed to being a mercenary criminal?
Also, because when you start to cross that line where the lives of innocents and collateral damage means nothing to you, you're no better than the corps you profess to fight.
Shadowrun, as far as I read it, has always been more about playing people who have an ideological opposition to a horrible system rather than just being mercs, so the setting sort of expects you to have some form of decency when it comes to killing defense-less wage slaves: Just because they don't have the means or the balls to fight the system doesn't mean you can slaughter them with impunity. After all, that's how the corporate execs think.
And sure, sometimes you're up against an enemy where you can try to rationalize that they're irredeemably evil, but most of the times a lot of ordinary people are in the blast zone and a decent Shadowrunner, one who embraces the ideal of fighting not just for money but for the little man on the street as well, tries to avoid innocents getting killed.

It's right there, in the first paragraph of "What runners do" section:

Shadowrunners commit crimes, usually for money. When a corporation or other sponsor needs someone to do dirty work, they look to the shadows. As “deniable assets,” runners make advantageous—and expendable—tools.

I mean, sure, you can play Robin Hood, and the book even acknowledges the existence of such runners, but this isn't the default thing for shadowrunners.

Runners do these things because they are survivors. Many of them grew up committing crimes to get by, or perhaps they obtained special training somewhere and want to put it to use. Some may have extended families to feed and no other source of income. Many of them prefer the freedom of the shadowlife, controlling their own destinies as opposed to being a wage slave in some drab business park kissing corporate ass all day. Others enjoy the thrill of running, thriving on its risks. Finally, some are inspired to run by a sense of social justice; they want to damage the powers-that-be however they can while providing for the underclass. These runners are known as ’hooders for their Robin Hood outlook.