Shadowrun Topic(Talk & Questions)

[Lorsa]

So is it better to aim for being an Adept and having cool innate powers or are you simply stupid for not buying cyber/bioware? How good are mages in general (and what are they good at)?

[DodgerH2O]

So is it better to aim for being an Adept and having cool innate powers or are you simply stupid for not buying cyber/bioware?

Make whatever type of character you want to roleplay, honestly. As a general rule Adepts start out weaker, require a ton more Karma to advance, but in theory have no upper limit to their Magic score, it just gets horrendously expensive to increase. Cybered characters have at most (a fraction less than) 6 Essence to play with and while cutting edge 'ware can allow you to upgrade, there's only so much you can do.

For the typical Shadowrun group, this difference will never show up. Out of the box, an augmented character will be limited by Availability ratings and thus usually isn't much stronger than an Adept (but my experience is that augmented characters are somewhat stronger given equal amounts of optimization).

I personally just like to play up the fluff of "Low Essence means you're less than human" and so even my Street Samurai usually have 2 or 3 Essence to spare. In 4e there are no rules that your 0.1 Essence character has to be an unfeeling machine, the fluff just somewhat implies it.

How good are mages in general (and what are they good at)?

Mages/Shamans/Whatever (Magicians) are able to bring a variety of abilities to their team. Pretty much any party role they perform using magic can be done by other means (unlike, say, D&D) except for access to the Astral Plane, and countermagic. This is not to say mages aren't unique, but with stealth suits, wireless drones and rocket launchers available, their Invisibility, Clairvoyance and Fireball spells aren't the only way to be invisible, see long distances undiscovered, or blow things up.

The thing is, Magicians can be very very flexible. The spell lists allow for several possible party roles, and then Conjuring summons spirits that can do even more. Shadowrun is all about specialization, but there's minimal cost for say a Combat Mage to learn Heal, Invisibility, or Control Thoughts to gain versatility in other situations. As Awakened characters though, they suffer from the same Karma shortage as Adepts, and will generally progress more slowly than their mundane friends.


Note: The stuff I mentioned earlier about augmented characters being easier than Adepts to detect, etc. isn't really a big deal overall. The typical Shadowrun team doesn't walk through a detector if they can help it, and if they have to for some reason... well, that's why there's forged SINs and licenses. Or why your Hacker bypasses the software for that crucial second. Or your Face distracts the security guard. Or your street samurai just walks through, sets off the alarms anyway, and uses the distraction to let the rest of the group do what they need to do to get into the area. Shadowrunners overcome obstacles for a living, part of what makes a group interesting is how they cover each others' weaknesses to do so.

[TheOOB]

So is it better to aim for being an Adept and having cool innate powers or are you simply stupid for not buying cyber/bioware? How good are mages in general (and what are they good at)?

Why not both? Use bioware to boost your stats, and powers to boost your skills/get unique abilities.

As for magicians, there's an adage for SR4/SR4A. "The less your GM knows about the magic system, the more powerful magicians are, the more they know about the magic system, the less power magicians are".

As far as pure power goes, magicians are not all the hot, but they have versatility. A magician can become instantly decent at something by learning the right spell, and conjuration means you always have useful options. The only truly overpowered things magicians can do are mind control spells, super high force spirits, and using binding to call like 6 spirits at once.

Conjuration is where a magicians true power lies, and edge is almost as important as magic for a conjurer. With the exception of mind control, sorcerery is pretty tame, it's almost always better to just shoot someone than cast a damage dealing spell, and the drain/sustaining penalty for most spells is greater than just getting a similar effect through mundane means(though for only 5 karma you can learn any spell, and use it whenever you want). Magicians may seem powerful and hard to deal with at first, but there are a ton of ways for GM's to rein in their powers.

[Thanatos 51-50]

So, during session last night, the team got used their gun-running contacts to get their hands on four separate bury-themselves-in-concrete arrows with a spool of monowire trailing behind them and a transmitter than lent an electrical charge up the wire to incinerate it after the fact (and then incinerate the arrow).

The GM kind of folded the cost into the rest of the gear we acquired for the run (Including detcord, and zipline gloves.), but I figure that these arrows sound pretty handy for any potential future shadowrunning.
How expensive does the Playground think this kind of thing should be?

[Asheram]

So, during session last night, the team got used their gun-running contacts to get their hands on four separate bury-themselves-in-concrete arrows with a spool of monowire trailing behind them and a transmitter than lent an electrical charge up the wire to incinerate it after the fact (and then incinerate the arrow).

The GM kind of folded the cost into the rest of the gear we acquired for the run (Including detcord, and zipline gloves.), but I figure that these arrows sound pretty handy for any potential future shadowrunning.
How expensive does the Playground think this kind of thing should be?

Sounds a bit like the effect would be the same as a grappling gun along with some gecko tape and stealth rope. Probably usable only once. (Of course stealth rope can only be used once but I meant the arrowheads even if you manage to get them out)
I'd place it at somewhere around 150-250 nuyen for each arrow.

[DigoDragon]

With the exception of mind control, sorcerery is pretty tame, it's almost always better to just shoot someone than cast a damage dealing spell

I agree with most of what you said, though there are a few nice illusion spells in my opinion that can make a run easier (Like Improved Invisibility and Chaos). One of my favorite mage runners was a Wiccan who really hated using magic for violent ends. She knew only one combat spell, but she had a lot of illusions that she employed to stealth her way into just about anyplace. Slap on a sustaining focus and I was good to go.

Conjuration is indeed powerful. Just... don't ask a water spirit to drive the car for you during chase scene if you want to keep the car.

[Longes]

So is it better to aim for being an Adept and having cool innate powers or are you simply stupid for not buying cyber/bioware? How good are mages in general (and what are they good at)?

It's really simple - you want about 1 or 2 points of Essence lost. Take -ware that gives you things that are cheaper than analogous powers - for example, Mucle Toner and Muscle Augmentation. Social Adepts always want Tailored Pheromones.

Adepts are really good. I like them. They are the best hackers (except for the technomancers, but those are their own can of trojan horses) and best faces.

Mages are VERY strong. Spirits PWN opposition with their Immunity to Normal Weapons. Mob Mind PWNs the opposition, because people rarely have high Logic+Willpower save. Improved Invisibility is something everyone has. Stunball is ridiculously good. Force 9 Spirit of Man that throws 9 Stunballs each turn is even better.

[Longes]

Magicians may seem powerful and hard to deal with at first, but there are a ton of ways for GM's to rein in their powers.

Sadly, all those ways are either "Background Count" or "Enemy magicians". And that is bad.

[Kaun]

So, during session last night, the team got used their gun-running contacts to get their hands on four separate bury-themselves-in-concrete arrows with a spool of monowire trailing behind them and a transmitter than lent an electrical charge up the wire to incinerate it after the fact (and then incinerate the arrow).

I read this as ARO's. Took me two re reads before i finally got my head around what you were talking about.

You can get sticky explosive rounds that can be remote detonated in WAR can't you? maybe use them as a guide line.

[Lorsa]

It's really simple - you want about 1 or 2 points of Essence lost. Take -ware that gives you things that are cheaper than analogous powers - for example, Mucle Toner and Muscle Augmentation. Social Adepts always want Tailored Pheromones.-

I thought essence loss was really bad for any type of character that needed the Magic attribute? Or is some loss okay?

[Rhynn]

I thought essence loss was really bad for any type of character that needed the Magic attribute? Or is some loss okay?

It's hugely bad, because Essence loss is subtracted directly from your CURRENT Magic. 4E 20th Anniversary Edition, page 177, under "Magic":
"For every point (or fraction thereof) of Essence lost, the character's Magic attribute and her Magic maximum rating are reduced by one."

Granted, there's nothing I can find (quickly) that explicitly says you lose (spent) Power Points as well, but I'd be surprised if a GM didn't rule it that way; to do otherwise is just asking for Adepts to start with their maximum Magic and then pile cyberware on top of that, suffering no actual ill effects for the lost Essence and Magic.

[Lorsa]

It's hugely bad, because Essence loss is subtracted directly from your CURRENT Magic. 4E 20th Anniversary Edition, page 177, under "Magic":
"For every point (or fraction thereof) of Essence lost, the character's Magic attribute and her Magic maximum rating are reduced by one."

Granted, there's nothing I can find (quickly) that explicitly says you lose (spent) Power Points as well, but I'd be surprised if a GM didn't rule it that way; to do otherwise is just asking for Adepts to start with their maximum Magic and then pile cyberware on top of that, suffering no actual ill effects for the lost Essence and Magic.

I am sure that question has been asked before so I should try to find some errata or faq to answer it.

I'm sure I can find this in the rules when I have time to look, but how does it work? You start with some powers depending on your Magic attribute, but then ou can buy more powers with Karma without increasing your Magic? Do adepts use Magic for something other than determining starting powers?

[Thanatos 51-50]

Fifth Edition explicitly states that Adepts "un-buy" Power Points for every lost points for every lost point of Magic, and that every point of Magic an Adept gets also gives him a Power Point, so if that's not RAW in 4e, it is definitely RAI.

[DigoDragon]

Sadly, all those ways are either "Background Count" or "Enemy magicians". And that is bad.

I've come to find that a liberal application of Uzi to the chest can be quite effective.

[Rhynn]

I am sure that question has been asked before so I should try to find some errata or faq to answer it.

I'm sure I can find this in the rules when I have time to look, but how does it work? You start with some powers depending on your Magic attribute, but then ou can buy more powers with Karma without increasing your Magic? Do adepts use Magic for something other than determining starting powers?

You only get Power Points when you get more Magic. In 4E, AFAIK, you automatically get a Power Point for every Magic point you buy. Once you reach Magic 6, you can Initiate to get even more. (Mystic Adepts choose whether to use each point of Magic they get to increase Magic or Power Points.)

[Asheram]

I am sure that question has been asked before so I should try to find some errata or faq to answer it.

I'm sure I can find this in the rules when I have time to look, but how does it work? You start with some powers depending on your Magic attribute, but then ou can buy more powers with Karma without increasing your Magic? Do adepts use Magic for something other than determining starting powers?

Adepts aren't that complicated after some reading.
Say that you've got Magic 4 and get the Adept quality. Now you've got an equal amount of Power Points (The resource to buy adept powers) as your magic.
As you expend your Power Points you count backwards from the top of your magic.

Say that you spend a full power point on adept powers. This "takes up" one of your magic points and makes it unavailable to use. You still Have Magic 4 but you can only use Magic 3 as if that was all you had.

If you later buy another point and reach Magic 5, you can only use Magic 4 due to still having invested 1 full Power Point.

[Lorsa]

So while I am very intrigued by the adept quality it's unfortunately very inefficient compared to simply buying -ware. It seems almost impossible to get any useful amount of powers to make up for all the fancy implants you could have.

Money seems easier to come by then BP / Karma.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Money seems easier to come by then BP / Karma.

Of course it is.
You can steal money.

[Asheram]

So while I am very intrigued by the adept quality it's unfortunately very inefficient compared to simply buying -ware. It seems almost impossible to get any useful amount of powers to make up for all the fancy implants you could have.

Money seems easier to come by then BP / Karma.

That is true. For the regular character I'd wager that investing in "ware" is "easier" than having to invest into magic points which will be drained into Power Points eventually anyhow.

But if you break it down.
Ware would have the benefit that it doesn't cost BP/Karma.
While Adept powers are stealthier, no limited accessability*, costs no money, can't be hacked.

But I digress. We went from talking rules to talking effectiveness and I'm sure the rest of the folks here have much more intimate knowledge of that than me.

*Accessability in that you don't have to have the right contacts or know the right people to get what you want.

[Longes]

I thought essence loss was really bad for any type of character that needed the Magic attribute? Or is some loss okay?

It's a gain/loss balance thing. You have a number of Power Points equal to your Magic. If you spend a point of Essence on Muscle Enhancement 4 and Muscle Augmentation 4, you get 4/4 attribute points for a price of Power Point.

Some 'ware IS ALWAYS A GOOD DEAL FOR AN ADEPT. This isn't always true for magicians, because they want to spend money on Power Focus.

So while I am very intrigued by the adept quality it's unfortunately very inefficient compared to simply buying -ware. It seems almost impossible to get any useful amount of powers to make up for all the fancy implants you could have.

Nononono. Adept powers are awesome. You just want some ware to boost you, and use adept power for your main tricks. My troll hacker adept was an awesome hacker, had 19/17 armor and was punching people for 20P unresisted by armor.

[Lorsa]

That is true. For the regular character I'd wager that investing in "ware" is "easier" than having to invest into magic points which will be drained into Power Points eventually anyhow.

But if you break it down.
Ware would have the benefit that it doesn't cost BP/Karma.
While Adept powers are stealthier, no limited accessability*, costs no money, can't be hacked.

But I digress. We went from talking rules to talking effectiveness and I'm sure the rest of the folks here have much more intimate knowledge of that than me.

*Accessability in that you don't have to have the right contacts or know the right people to get what you want.

Well, effectiveness is part of what I wanted to talk about. I don't know much about the other players, as it will be the first time playing with them, and I have more than once made the mistake of making something that sounds like really cool with a new system but turns out to be really ineffective and I was hoping to be able to spot what sort of powerlevel the other players want to be on and adapt myself accordingly.

And for that I need to know what is inefficient. But no, I don't think I want to play a drone-controller technomancer. I think that sounds a bit boring.

[Longes]

Lorsa, UmaroVI died for your sins.

[DodgerH2O]

Lorsa, UmaroVI died for your sins.

Just an FYI, of the half dozen characters linked that I've browsed all are far more optimized than any character I've created or seen created at any table I've run or played at. I've seen characters like those on PbP games (here and Myth-Weavers) however. They also rely on sourcebook gear and qualities, so if you use them check with your GM.

If I were running a game with a team of runners taken directly from those pages, I'd have to throw much stronger challenges at them, as they'd blow through most of my intro runs without taking a scratch.

[Asheram]

That does remind me, I'm setting up a campaign in a week or two and I'm planning to give some visual aids. Does anyone of you have any good resource for images of potential Mr Johnsons and different Shadowrunesque characters?

[Thanatos 51-50]

So, despite never using street names over comms, a guy in a secure room somehow knew my Gunfighter Adept's Street name, greeted her with it, and exploited her code of honour to make it so she couldn't hurt him (or let anybody else hurt him).
He didn't recognise anyone else in the party except for the shaman (who was framed for terrorism in her backstory).
How hosed am I?

[Asheram]

So, despite never using street names over comms, a guy in a secure room somehow knew my Gunfighter Adept's Street name, greeted her with it, and exploited her code of honour to make it so she couldn't hurt him (or let anybody else hurt him).
He didn't recognise anyone else in the party except for the shaman (who was framed for terrorism in her backstory).
How hosed am I?

Well, someone has done his legwork. I hear that California is lovely at this time of year.
But in all seriousness, someone who is that bold either is very sure in his info or has some additional hold on you. I'd be, very carefully, planning an exit strategy.

[Longes]

Just an FYI, of the half dozen characters linked that I've browsed all are far more optimized than any character I've created or seen created at any table I've run or played at. I've seen characters like those on PbP games (here and Myth-Weavers) however. They also rely on sourcebook gear and qualities, so if you use them check with your GM.

If I were running a game with a team of runners taken directly from those pages, I'd have to throw much stronger challenges at them, as they'd blow through most of my intro runs without taking a scratch.

I dread to imagine the games you've played.

"They also rely on sourcebook gear and qualities" - why wouldn't they?

They aren't that optimized, really. That troll hacker adept I've mentioned? That was at chargen.

[Longes]

Can you give an example of the character you've played? I'm curious now :)

[DodgerH2O]

I dread to imagine the games you've played.

"They also rely on sourcebook gear and qualities" - why wouldn't they?

They aren't that optimized, really. That troll hacker adept I've mentioned? That was at chargen.

The sourcebook note was really for Lorsa, as not all GMs have access to all sourcebooks. Nothing wrong with using sourcebook stuff, as long as the person running the game can verify their stats and the rest of the party (and the opposition) have equal access.

The games I've played and run were low-op and plenty of fun for everyone involved, which is really the most important thing. People enjoy playing straight Fighters and healbot Clerics in D&D, which would make a lot of folk on this board cringe, but if it works for the group, I don't see a problem.

Can you give an example of the character you've played? I'm curious now :)

I don't have the old charsheets for my last group, but the "powergamer" in it was a straight Adept focused on melee (I think he had 14 dice at chargen and did 8 damage), who had 10/8 armor and mostly used Gymnastics to take advantage of the terrain in combat. The others were a demolitions expert with a shotgun who spent most of his BPs on crafting skills, knowledge skills, and contacts (as well as a detachable cyberarm filled with plastique, and a vehicle rigged to blow) and an elf shaman who mostly focused on blasting and healing and whose backup weapons were a bow (strength 2 character) and a staff.

We didn't have access to anything but the core book at the time, so SecureTech wasn't in the ruleset we were using, nor were the various ways to make unarmed combat and adepts more effective.

Edit: Also found the last character I made, purposely low-op Street Sam (the other PCs were similarly low-op, so I tried to follow suit) here.

[Lorsa]

Thanks for all the help guys!

I have two more questions, or rather one question and one observation.

If you have some form of cyberware installed, like an arm or whatever, and it gets destryoed and then replaced do you loose Essence again or is the fact that you've already replaced your arm once enough?

Also, Shadowrun seem to suffer the same problem as many other systems where you use one type of points in character creation and other types in play. I always find it sad when the system basically tells you that having Attributes alternating between 1 and 6 and having 3 is shooting yourself in the foot.