Vow of Poverty

[hymer]

@ MeiLeTeng: These threads often get a big response, so there must be something worth having about them. Consider it the D&D equivalent to talking about the weather, maybe.

[AstralFire]

Ok two part reply. Yes the naked fighter might do more damage (you did leave out the monks chi attack plus the bonus damage granted by the VoP not to mention any damage from the many exalted feats he has). But the naked VoP monk not only does the same damage naked as dressed, he still has all of his abilities to include armor class bonuses and everything else. Point being the fighter ( and I do love them) has no AC and is in for a very short fight. ... ok not naked can we please put them in loincloths just for a better visual? (as long as the warrior is not in a +5 loincloth of awesomeness) Yes I know they don't exist I am trying to be humorous. Also I was not trying to offend any fellow gamers I guess I just never really played with lots and lots of magical items.

Ok part two. Magical items. When I am the DM I like giving out magical items mostly things that are helpful for day to day life. Examples being decanter of endless water, a handy haversack, and maybe a small fire starter. But that was for the group not every player, and everyone split up the stuff. True the VoP monk did not help in that manner of carrying it but when they all got to town because of his reputation and donations to the church the party got much cheaper healing if not free healing. Alot of the VoP abilities, monk abilities, and exalted feats make up for a lack of magical items, and are useful to the party.

As for Tier systems for classes that sounds almost like gearscore in WoW. Any DM worth his or her salt can keep the reins in on any class (they all have pros and cons) and ensure that all players regardless of class have fun. The purpose of D&D is to have fun, not to have a mathematically superior character. I made my VoP monk paladin kinda by accident. He turned out to be a powerhouse undead slayer. I love playing fighters, rogues and sorcerers. I hope you do not discourage players from playing certain classes because they are not in a high enough tier. I hope that does not offend any of you as that is not my intent. I do appreciate the comments.

The Tier System and gearscore have approximately zero in common in purpose or function. The Tier System is a guideline for how badly your players can break your game (or your game can break your players, if they're low tier enough.) Gearscore is literally a competitive measure. Many DMs aim for Tier 3 to 5 play, not Tier 1 to 2; I outright ban most T1 and T2 classes because I am not capable of, nor do I wish to, DM for that kind of game.

[Elderand]

Not at all, you got it backwards.

I may have gotten it backward but that's simply because what you wrote was the opposite of what you meant.

What? I can't bash people who don't think VoP can be fun, but you can bash multiple classes build choices? Didn't you spot the hypocrisy on your own? You sit there bashing un-optimal choices, while completely missing my point.

And where exactly did I bash anyone ? Go on, show me I'm waiting. All I did was list a series of classes and how they are sometime played. I even went out of my way to say that this way of playing was perfectly valid.

Liability to what? The player who actually wants to try some kind of wandering monk character, but thinks wearing a small towns wealth in magic items is kind of strange for someone who was supposed to have chosen a simple life?

If everyone else in the party is playing medium to high op character the VoP monk is going to be a liability to the group, he won't pull his own weight and will have ressources from other players diverted toward him that could have been used for other things.

[Thaxton 76]

I hear what you are saying Astral Fire about crazy OP classes and sadly mostly new players who have know idea want to play them. I have reread the tier system and I can see its uses and I am not to big to admit I was wrong on it. It can be a very useful tool.

TypoNinja you made a great point about walking around with a great amount of wealth (aka Magical items). This is why they are hard to keep. People will want to poison you or slit your throat in your sleep for your gear. Or Decide that their town needs it to sell it for taxes, blessing offerings, or payoff to something powerful enough to get good people to do such a thing.

[lunar2]

I hear what you are saying Astral Fire about crazy OP classes and sadly mostly new players who have know idea want to play them. I have reread the tier system and I can see its uses and I am not to big to admit I was wrong on it. It can be a very useful tool.

TypoNinja you made a great point about walking around with a great amount of wealth (aka Magical items). This is why they are hard to keep. People will want to poison you or slit your throat in your sleep for your gear. Or Decide that their town needs it to sell it for taxes, blessing offerings, or payoff to something powerful enough to get good people to do such a thing.

poisons become trivial to deal with after level 5 or so. once you have even a small save bonus, all the poisons cheap enough for low level characters to afford have a very low chance of working.

and anyone trying to sneak up on you has to get past your defenses, even if that defense is as simple as a listen check. the only people who have a reasonable chance of stealing your magic items are those who are already powerful enough that they have no reason to steal your magic items.

[AstralFire]

I hear what you are saying Astral Fire about crazy OP classes and sadly mostly new players who have know idea want to play them. I have reread the tier system and I can see its uses and I am not to big to admit I was wrong on it. It can be a very useful tool.

Wait, we didn't have to argue this for like... 20, 30 pages? Wow. I'm so used to people being obstinate about this that I have no idea what's appropriate to say here. Um. Want a piece of pie?

[Rubik]

Wait, we didn't have to argue this for like... 20, 30 pages? Wow. I'm so used to people being obstinate about this that I have no idea what's appropriate to say here. Um. Want a piece of pie?

I believe cookies are the preferred dessert of internet congratulations. (> ^_^)>(::)

[eggynack]

Wait, we didn't have to argue this for like... 20, 30 pages? Wow. I'm so used to people being obstinate about this that I have no idea what's appropriate to say here. Um. Want a piece of pie?

Indeed. This is approximately the shortest tier argument ever. Well, there are always more tier arguments.

[Phelix-Mu]

Wait, we didn't have to argue this for like... 20, 30 pages? Wow. I'm so used to people being obstinate about this that I have no idea what's appropriate to say here. Um. Want a piece of pie?

Indeed. This is approximately the shortest tier argument ever. Well, there are always more tier arguments.

I was also worried I'd have to weigh in again on this argument. *whew*

Well, mes amigos, until the next bit of circular debate. *tips hat and departs*

[Shadowdagger213]

I find it funny that with all of the people discouraging VoP in this thread, with all of the "What if someone casts 'X' " or what if the mage summons 'Y "? What will all of those casters do if the DM decides to throw an ANTI MAGIC FIELD or DISPEL MAGIC on the party? The casters can't cast, the multiple pounds of magic items that everyone else is wearing go inert, the flying wizard plummets to the ground.... and your "worthless" Vow of Poverty monk with Holy Ki Strike, Touch of Golden Ice and moderate damage dealing is all that stands between that EVIL enemy mage and him summoning "Ultimate Acid rain of Hurt, Fire and More Hurt". Vow of Poverty is for the sake of the character, not the party. It's for Role-Play, not for Optimization.

And by the way, all his sh*t still works......

[eggynack]

I find it funny that with all of the people discouraging VoP in this thread, with all of the "What if someone casts 'X' " or what if the mage summons 'Y "? What will all of those casters do if the DM decides to throw an ANTI MAGIC FIELD or DISPEL MAGIC on the party? The casters can't cast, the multiple pounds of magic items that everyone else is wearing go inert, the flying wizard plummets to the ground.... and your "worthless" Vow of Poverty monk with Holy Ki Strike, Touch of Golden Ice and moderate damage dealing is all that stands between that EVIL enemy mage and him summoning "Ultimate Acid rain of Hurt, Fire and More Hurt". Vow of Poverty is for the sake of the character, not the party. It's for Role-Play, not for Optimization.

And by the way, all his sh*t still works......

Exalted feats are Su abilities, and thus don't work in an AMF. Casters have plenty of ways to deal with an AMF, and maybe even more ways to deal with dispel magic. As for it being for role play... sure? I don't think anyone disputes the fact that you can take a feat for flavor reasons. The only question that can really be objectively answered in a forum context is how viable the character will be afterwards.

[Theomniadept]

I find it funny that with all of the people discouraging VoP in this thread, with all of the "What if someone casts 'X' " or what if the mage summons 'Y "? What will all of those casters do if the DM decides to throw an ANTI MAGIC FIELD or DISPEL MAGIC on the party? The casters can't cast, the multiple pounds of magic items that everyone else is wearing go inert, the flying wizard plummets to the ground.... and your "worthless" Vow of Poverty monk with Holy Ki Strike, Touch of Golden Ice and moderate damage dealing is all that stands between that EVIL enemy mage and him summoning "Ultimate Acid rain of Hurt, Fire and More Hurt". Vow of Poverty is for the sake of the character, not the party. It's for Role-Play, not for Optimization.

And by the way, all his sh*t still works......

*cough*conjurationandtransmutation*cough* *cough*Initiate of Mystra*cough* *cough*fightersandbarbariansarestillbetter*cough* *cough*situationalpowerisn'trealpower*cough*

[Phelix-Mu]

Necromancy my friends, don't you start away uneasy.