My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

[Lady Tialait]

That is exactly what I needed, to combat table-melting. Thank you.

[Grek]

An unofficial and unauthorized stab at a base class:

Saboteur
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Class Skills: The saboteur's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis) and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Level	BaB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1	+0	+0	+2	+2	Disintegration Charges, Defeat Gramarie
2	+1	+0	+3	+3	Disable Gramarie, Reverse Engineering
3	+2	+1	+3	+3	Delayed Charges
4	+3	+1	+4	+4	Uncanny Dodge, Defeat Gramarie
5	+3	+1	+4	+4	Hide in Plain Sight
6	+4	+2	+5	+5	Forceful Charges
7	+5	+2	+5	+5	Discretion
8	+6/+1	+2	+6	+6	Defeat Gramarie
9	+6/+1	+3	+6	+6	Multiple Charges
10	+7/+2	+3	+7	+7	Improved Uncanny Dodge, Double Reserved Engineering
11	+8/+3	+3	+7	+7	Skill Mastery
12	+9/+4	+4	+8	+8	Annihilation Charges, Defeat Gramarie
13	+9/+4	+4	+8	+8	Arcane Sight
14	+10/+5	+4	+9	+9	Immunity to Poison
15	+11/+6/+1	+5	+9	+9	Explosive Charges
16	+12/+7/+2	+5	+10	+10	Defeat Gramarie
17	+12/+7/+2	+5	+10	+10	Triple Reserved Engineering
18	+13/+8/+3	+6	+11	+11	Implosive Charges
19	+14/+9/+4	+6	+11	+11	Mind Blank
20	+15/+10/+5	+6	+12	+12	Defeat Gramarie

Disintegration Charges (Su): The Saboteur is regularly called upon to sabotage and to destroy. As a full-round action, the Saboteur may draw on his knowledge of gramaric principles to combine a lodestone, a teaspoon of oil, a teaspoon of acid and a pinch of flour into an unstable blob of resin known as a disintegration charge. The lodestone is not consumed in the process. A total of 96 such charges can be prepared from a pint of oil, a pint of acid and a pound of flour.

This charge retains its potency for one round after being created, during which it may be applied to a creature or object as a melee attack action. Once applied, the Saboteur may trigger the charge with a Swift action, releasing the destructive energies in a flash of green light and dealing 2d6 + 1d6 damage per class level to the target. Wounds on creatures and holes in objects created by this effect are filled with fine ash. As the Saboteur advances in level, his charges become more advanced as well.

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• At level 3, the Saboteur may formulate a delayed charge which only effects objects but is stable for one additional round per Saboteur level. Doing so requires a teaspoon of water.
• At level 6, the Saboteur may formulate a forceful charge which can destroy filters, walls of force and other [Force] effects. Doing so requires a teaspoon of alchemist's fire.
• At level 9, the Saboteur may formulate a number of charges in a single round equal to the number of iterative attacks they receive from their base attack bonus.
• At level 12, the Saboteur may formulate annihilation charges which destroy slain creatures completely, leaving nothing but ash. As a full-round action, the Saboteur may destroy a single 10' cube of material regardless of how damaged it may or may not be. Doing so requires a teaspoon of salve of slipperiness.
• At level 15, the Saboteur may formulate explosive charges. These charges inflict their damage to all creatures and objects within 10' of the target. Doing so requires a teaspoon of universal solvent. Explosive charges may not be implosive.
• At level 18, the Saboteur may formulate implosive charges. These charges implode their target, forcing a DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Dex save against being destroyed utterly. Even on a successful save, the target still takes the usual damage from the charge. Doing so requires a teaspoon of sovereign glue. Implosive charges may not be explosive.

Defeat Gramarie (Ex or Su): At level 1 and every fourth level beyond that, the Saboteur learns to defeat one principle of Gramarie. These abilities all provoke an attack of opportunity and are Extraordinary when used against Supernatural gramarie effects and Supernatural when used against Extraordinary gramarie effects. Unless specified otherwise, a principle damaged using Defeat Gramarie can only be repaired by preparing the principle again. The Saboteur may select one ability from the following list at each such level:

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• Obstinance: Through incredible pigheadedness, the Saboteur to defeat Alchemetry. His charges ignore alchemical arguments when determining their damage to objects. Furthermore, the Saboteur gains immunity to being poisoned by lead, mercury and, at level 14, radiomantic energy.
• Inefficiency: Through extensive meditation and training, the Saboteur learns to defeat Arcanodynamics. As a swift action, he may cause any number of transformers within 30' to become highly inefficient for one round. Inputs produce half the usual number of ebbs while outputs require twice as many to produce the same effect.
• Rebuke Creation: Through great zeal and a keen understanding of psychology, the Saboteur learns to defeat Biollurgy. Given a full round to exhort a biollurgic chassis to rise up against its creator, she may Rebuke Biostructure as a evil cleric would Rebuke Undead. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier and her effective cleric level for this ability is equal to her Saboteur level.
• External Combustion: Through a careful study of the properties of engines, the Saboteur learns to defeat Eldrikinetics. By spending one minute adding the ingredients for a disintegration charge to the fuel tank of an Eldrikinetic engine, she may cause a reaction within the engine next time the engine is activated, dealing as much damage to everything within 10' (including the engine) as the charge would normally do to its target. Even if the engine is merely damaged in the explosion, it is still rendered inoperable until repaired by preparing the principle anew.
• Behind the Scenes: Through his oneness with nature and affinity for the natural world, the Saboteur learns to defeat Geoocultism. As a move action while within a geoocult biome, the Saboteur may shift between the biome projected by the pole and the original terrain beneath. While shifted, the Saboteur is effectively an ethereal creature, save that he is not on the ethereal plane and thus cannot fly, use or be effected by Ghost Touch items. Note that this does not allow the Saboteur to bypass natural or artificial walls, as they exist both within the biome and in the original terrain.
• Get Phreaky: Through detailed analysis of the ethereal plane, the Saboteur has learned to defeat Heuristicism. Heuristic circuits are always visible to her, allowing her to tell what devices are connected to the circuit and how many ebbs are being routed through the circuit each round. As a standard action, she may touch a circuit and make a Disable Device check to drain that many ebbs from the circuit, as if she were a wooden input. These ebbs may then be rerouted into a device of the Saboteur's choice, or simply allowed to vanish into the ether.
• Suspension of Belief: Through careful training his of senses, the Saboteur learns to defeat Imachination. For the purposes of sensory checks granted by Imachination, the Saboteur is always counted as familiar with the sense in question and always gains the full +10 bonus when encountering a sensory mismatch, even when faced with a sensory component that is merely absent rather than mismatched.
• Colour Charges: Through careful alchemy, the Saboteur learns to defeat Kaleidomantics. By including a teaspoon of ink in the formula, the Saboteur may elect to have her disintegration charges either pass through or adhere to any colour of filter. A charge which adheres to a given filter will destroy it if the damage caused by the charge exceeds the check used to create the filter.
• Cosmic Auditing: Through a transcendental understanding of reality, the Saboteur learns to defeat Yggdratecture. As a swift action, he may exempt himself from the effects of both fluxes and semispaces for one round, passing through the bubbles and portals alike without ever being teleported, flung into the air or transported across the planes. Furthermore, he may audit a semispace as a free action to discover the contents with perfect accuracy.

Disable Gramarie (Su): At level 2, the Saboteur may find and disable traps as a rogue of his level. Additionally, the Saboteur may use the Disable Device skill on gramatic devices and receives a bonus equal to half her class level on Disable Device checks when doing so. The base DC to do so is equal to the check used in creating the device and requires 1d4 minutes per half hour spent preparing the principle to be disabled. Treat disabled devices as if the disabled principle had never been prepared. Rigged devices become disabled after 1d4 minutes of use and jammed devices do not function until repaired by preparing the principle anew.

Reverse Engineering: At level 2, the Saboteur gains Reverse Engineering as a bonus feat, even if he would not otherwise qualify for the feat. He may substitute a Disable Device check for the Knowledge (architecture and engineering) check normally required and may choose to automatically reverse engineer any device that he successfully disables.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At level 4, the Saboteur gains Uncanny Dodge as a rogue. At level 10, this becomes Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Being a Saboteur requires that one learn how to hide in the most unlikely of locations. At level 5, the Saboteur may use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Discretion (Su): For a Saboteur, merely mundane stealth doesn't cut it - the ability to hide from the arcane is a key job requirement. At level 7, the Saboteur is protected by a constant Nondetection effect, with a caster level equal to his character level.

Double Reserved Engineering (Ex): At level 11, the Saboteur can prepare Magisterial principles from blueprints gained via Reverse Engineering.

Skill Mastery (Ex): At level 11, the Saboteur becomes a master of his art. She may take 10, even under stressful conditions, when using the Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently and Search skills as well as those used as key skills for the disciplines for which she has learned to Defeat Gramarie.

Arcane Sight (Su): Being a Saboteur requires that one be able to understand to most arcane of gadgets and gewgaws. The level 13, Saboteur is constantly under the effects of Greater Arcane Sight as per the spell.

Immunity to Poison (Ex): A Saboteur eventually builds up a tolerance for even the most noxious of chemicals, purely through sheer exposure. At level 14, the Saboteur becomes immune to all poisons, magical and mundane.

Triple Reserved Engineering (Ex): At level 17, the Saboteur can prepare Doctorate principles from blueprints gained via Reverse Engineering.

Mind Blank (Su): At level 19, the Saboteur is protected by a constant Mind Blank effect, allowing him to foil even the plans of the Science Gods themselves.

[Mith]

^I like this!

[qazzquimby]

I like the preparation through blueprints. Immunity to ARCD effects might be too strong, seeing as ARCD makes up many of the weapons in a gramarie setting. I would try halving the effects of transformers.

[Grek]

Unfortunately, a percentage reduction doesn't really work well for many of the transformers. For example, what happens if you halve the effect of an Iron Output or a Platinum Input? I suppose you could adjudicate it supply side, where inputs produce half their normal ebbs and outputs consume twice as many to produce the same effect. That could work.

[Milo v3]

[*]Obstinance: Through incredible pig-headedness, the Saboteur to defeat Alchemetry. His charges ignore alchemical arguments when determining their damage to objects. Furthermore, the Saboteur gains immunity to being poisoned by lead, mercury and, at level 14, radiomantic energy.

Do you mean alchemical augments?

[*]External Combustion: Through a careful study of the properties of engines, the Saboteur learns to defeat Eldrikinetics. By spending one minute and a pint of alchemist's fire to tamper with an Eldrikinetic engine, the Saboteur may cause the engine's normally internal combustion to quickly externalize itself. When next activated, the engine is utterly destroyed as a fireball erupts from the engine, dealing 2d6 damage per Saboteur level to all within 10'.

So, destroying ships in with one ability from level one, without any chance of the ability failing?

[*]Behind the Scenes: Through his oneness with nature and affinity for the natural world, the Saboteur learns to defeat Geoocultism. As a move action while within a geoocult biome, the Saboteur may shift between the biome projected by the pole and the original terrain beneath. While shifted, the Saboteur is effectively an ethereal creature, save that he is not on the ethereal plane and thus cannot fly, use or be effected by Ghost Touch items.

Level 1 walk through walls..... no.

[*]Get Phreaky: Through detailed analysis of the ethereal plane, the Saboteur has learned to defeat Heuristicism. Heuristic circuits are always visible to her. As a standard action, she may cut an ethereal connection, causing the device to no longer be part of the circuit. More insidiously, she may subvert a connection as a full-round action. Once subverted, only logical decisions made by the Saboteur for that component will be executed.

This is way too powerful for a no-save you just get screwed.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): At level 5, the Saboteur may use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Amazingly low level to grant Hide in Plain Sight.

Discretion (Su): At level 7, the Saboteur is protected by a constant Nondetection effect, with a caster level equal to his character level.

Immunity to Poison (Ex): At level 14, the Saboteur becomes immune to all poisons, magical and mundane.

Arcane Sight (Su): The level 13, Saboteur is constantly under the effects of Greater Arcane Sight as per the spell.

Mind Blank (Su): At level 19, the Saboteur is protected by a constant Mind Blank effect.

Just wondering flavour-wise, how does the saboteur get these?

[Grek]

Do you mean alchemical augments?

Arguments. Alchemetry principles are argued to atomic spirits.

So, destroying ships in with one ability from level one, without any chance of the ability failing?

The key point here isn't that the Saboteur can destroy the engines from level one, since any Saboteur can do that by hitting it enough times with Disintegration Charges. Barbarians can too, by hitting the engine enough times with a great axe. The important ability here is that he can rig an engine to explode when activated, even after the Saboteur has left the building.

That said, this ability doesn't actually destroy ships so much as ruin the day of the engine crew. 2d6 damage is an average of 7, and even wooden planks have 10hp per inch of thickness and iron is three times that while taking half damage from fires.

Level 1 walk through walls..... no.

It doesn't let you go through walls. Biomes don't replace artificial structures, so any man-made walls put in place would still be there. At best, you get to walk through magically generated moats and those basalt walls created by Platinum Poles.

This is way too powerful for a no-save you just get screwed.

Suggestions for changing it?

Amazingly low level to grant Hide in Plain Sight.

Hide in Plain Sight is a low level ability. The only reason Rangers get it so late is because it sounds much more "superhuman" than it actually is.

Just wondering flavour-wise, how does the saboteur get these?

Discretion: After spending six levels sneaking into the lairs of mad scientists and evil wizards, any Saboteur who's still alive and uncaptured has undoubtably figured out how to avoid being detected by magic.
Arcane Sight: See above, but with "how to identify various magical googaws".
Immunity to Poison: Saboteurs are exposed to horrible toxic chemicals in their line of work and eventually build up an immunity to them.
Mind Blank: This is basically Discretion, but higher level and also lets you avoid being smited by the Science Gods. Same reasoning.

[Mith]

The key point here isn't that the Saboteur can destroy the engines from level one, since any Saboteur can do that by hitting it enough times with Disintegration Charges. Barbarians can too, by hitting the engine enough times with a great axe. The important ability here is that he can rig an engine to explode when activated, even after the Saboteur has left the building.

That said, this ability doesn't actually destroy ships so much as ruin the day of the engine crew. 2d6 damage is an average of 7, and even wooden planks have 10hp per inch of thickness and iron is three times that while taking half damage from fires

Shouldn't it be that the engine is damaged instead of destroyed then? The way it is worded now, it can be read that the engine is destroyed, then the 2d6 damage to 10'/level is applied.

[Grek]

Shouldn't it be that the engine is damaged instead of destroyed then? The way it is worded now, it can be read that the engine is destroyed, then the 2d6 damage to 10'/level is applied.

That's the intended reading. The engine being destroyed causes the explosion rather than the explosion causing the engine to be destroyed.

[Mith]

OK. I don't know how unbalanced that is, so I won't comment further, but I don't know how broken that is since the Saboteur can do a lot of damage starting at level 1.

[Grek]

I've altered how External Combustion and Get Phreaky work. I've also added reagents to the more advanced charges and descriptive text for the later immunities. Let me know what you think!

E: I've also made the table pretty and installed spoilers.

[BornValyrian]

Hello everybody! I've been looking at gramarie and each time I look at it, I enjoy it more and more. So I decided to try my hand at a discipline. Its still WIP, but please critique what I have so far:

Totemissions

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Totemissions is a series of process by which a spirit is bound to an object to aid or hinder the people surrounding it. A Totemissionist has determined how to bridge the material and spirit realms through the use of puissance and in doing so makes long-term guardians of areas and people. These guardians take a variety of effects, from a bolt of energy to a feeling of abject terror to the physical manifestation of the object.

Totemissions involves finding a spirit that will occupy the space and luring it into a connection with the physical realms. Objects that aid in communicating with spirits such as psychotropic incense, Ouija boards, and calling diagrams all aid in the preparation of Totemission principles and are considered masterwork tools, granting a +2 circumstance bonus on the Gather Information check required to prepare the principle. The most famous of these tools is the Mmuo sphere, a crystal ball that allows for the direct communication with any spirit you wish.

Key Skill: Gather Information

TOTE 101: Intro to Totemissions
Grade: Baccalaureate
Prerequisite: None
Target: 1 cubic foot of material
Preparation time: 1 hour

This principle binds a spirit to an object, known as a totem, through which it can manipulate it's surroundings. A totem has a passive and active mode, along with a conviction for which it will become active. The creator of a totem is its Negotiator. A totem's range of influence is a bubble with radius 30 ft, plus 15 ft for each additional preparation, centered on the totem. It can be stationary, such as a statue, or not, like a necklace carried by an adventurer. In its passive state the spirit has no senses other than those required to know when its cause must be fulfilled. Each week in its passive state it requires either fuel or puissance, otherwise it becomes inert. An inert totem cannot become active until it gains enough puissance to power it for two weeks. The maximum amount of ebbs an active totem can use each round is equal to one-fourth the Gather Information check made to use it.

An active totem exerts influence in order to fulfill its conviction as stated in the conviction's description. It requires fuel or puissance every round. If it is not fed this it becomes inert. A totem's negotiator can also change its cause with a standard action, though if somebody doesn't have permission to access it (set by the negotiator upon preparation) they have to beat the initial Gather Information check

This principle lets you make elemental totems.The fuel units for elemental totems depend on the elemental housed within:

Damage/Resist Type| Fuel required: 1 cubic foot of
Fire| Iron
Cold | Silver
Acid | Lead
Electricity | Copper
Sonic | Quartz

Passively the totem requires 1 ebb or fuel unit per week, and requires that much per round just to operate actively. The effects of a totems active state are described below:

Harm: The elemental lashes out, dealing fire, electricity, acid, cold, or sonic damage, set at preparation, to its target(s). For each ebb or fuel unit above the set operation cost, it deals 1d6 damage. This effect requires line of effect, but no save or attack roll. This damage is divided among all available targets, or against just one. This decision is made upon preparation or as a logical decision.

Harbor: The elemental provides resistance against the chosen element. For every ebb or fuel unit above the active operation cost, it provides resist energy 5 of a chosen damage type to a target for 1 round. These can be divided just as the d6 damage dice from Harm are. This requires line of effect.


You can set your totems to become active for the following convictions:

Hostility: The totem has a constant Detect Hostile Intent effect within its bubble, but the objects hostility is detected against are instead allies of the creator or any other creatures the creator designates upon creation. This can be changed by preparing the principle again or as a logical decision in an heuristical circuit. Depending on the active state's ability, this will be used to harm the aggressors or help the victims of such hostility.

Proximity: A totem with this conviction activates whenever a creature enters the bubble except the negotiator. The Negotiator may allow certain creatures with a standard action and the negotiator may choose to include himself in the effect. The totem automatically begins targeting creatures within the bubble.

Circuited: The totem is controlled by a heuristic circuit. Its activation is a logical decision, as is its targeting and allocation of targeting capabilities. (If this totem's effect is Command, the Suggestion is also a logical decision.)

TOTE 153: Spiritual Storage Systems [Specialist]
Grade: Baccalaureate
Prerequisite: Gather Information 4 ranks
Target: 1 totem
Preparation time: 10 minutes

This principle allows a totem to store energy for later use. Make a Gather Information check; that is the number of ebbs the totem can store. These ebbs are used to pay for passive and active operation costs, and you can choose how quickly the totem uses the stored puissance when you prepare this principle or as a logical decision.


TOTE 186: Extramundane Explosions [Military Science]
Grade: Baccalaureate
Prerequisite: Gather Information 4 ranks
Target: 1 totem
Preparation time: 10 minutes

You rig a totem to explode. The next time the totem would become active, the spirit inside is instead freed, amplifying the effects of the totem but destroying it. The totem immediately converts all of its available puissance to its active effect, up to a maximum of one-half the Gather Information check for initial preparation.


TOTE 234: Voices from Beyond
Grade: Magisterial
Prerequisite: TOTE 101, Gather Information 8 Ranks
Target: 1 cubic foot of material
Preparation time: 1 hour

You learn to bind ghostly spirits to totems. These ghosts require 2 ebbs or 1 cubic foot of obsidian per week passively or per round
You gain the following effects:

Command: The spirit invades the mind of the target, forcing it to act according to the spirits wishes. The target is affected by the Suggestion spell until the totem loses energy or the conviction is fulfilled. The suggestion is dependent on the conviction of the totem, and the will save is 10 + 2* ebbs expended. After the will save, the control requires an additional 2 ebbs per round to maintain.

Hostility: Attack Hostiles, then leave and don't come back.

Proximity: Leave and don't come back.

Circuited: The Suggestion is set as a logical decision

Hatred: Destroy all creatures of the chosen creature type

Ideology: Destroy all creatures of the opposed alignment

Counsel: The spirit provides aid in intelligence-based skills. The target gains a bonus to a single intelligence-based skill equal to the number of ebbs used for this ability.

Curse: The spirit hexes the target, imposing a penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks equal to the amount of ebbs expended for this ability. After the initial investment, the curse requires 2 ebbs a round to maintain.

You also gain access for the following convictions, which can be applied to any totem:

Hatred: This spirit despises a certain creature type or subtype, chosen from the ranger's favored enemy list. The totem activates if a creature of that type enters the bubble, and if harmful, targets only that creature type, and if helpful, aids enemies of the creature.

Ideology: The spirit is either opposes or sympathizes with a certain alignment. This alignment may be any alignment, and if harmful, targets creatures of the opposing alignment, and if helpful, targets those of its own alignment.

Magical: The spirit either helps or hinders magical creatures and/or spellcasters.


TOTE 270: Twin Bindings [Specialist]
Grade: Magisterial
Prerequisite: TOTE 101, Gather Information 8 Ranks
Target: 1 totem
Prep Time: 30 minutes

This principle allows another spirit to be bound in the totem. You may have two effects that stem from the same conviction, and as such are activated together. They both take the lowest of the two Gather Information checks made to bind them. The stress of the two spirits being linked to the same space causes the totem to require an extra ebb to maintain operation, in addition to the costs of maintaining both bound spirits.


TOTE 352: Living Totem
Grade: Doctorate
Prerequisite: Any three TOTE principles, Gather Information 15
Target: 1 cubic foot of material
Prep time: 1 hour

You bind a spirit of life to the totem. These require 3 ebbs per week passively or per round actively. This equals 1 cubic foot of diamond.

You also gain the following effect:
Animate: The totem creates animate objects as per the Animate Objects spell. This requires an initial investment of 6 ebbs of puissance or cubic feet of diamond and a per round investment of 3 ebbs. This is in addition to the per round cost of 3 ebbs. This animates a number of small object equivalents equal to half the Gather Information check made to create the totem.

You also gain the following Conviction:
Defend: The spirit defends a person, object, or location. The default is itself. If Command effect is used in conjunction with this Conviction, the Suggestion is also to defend the chosen person, object, or location.

[qazzquimby]

@Grek
I thought I had replied, but my post musn't have made it all the way through.
In summary, I think the saboteur should need to make a check to beat the gramarie check used to make the principle, so we don't have lvl 1 saboteurs wrecking a lvl 20 academist's things. The first defeat gramarie could be delayed one level to make dipping less tempting, since the charges are already not a bad first level ability. Get Phreaky should be able to make logical decisions where the saboteur would otherwise not be allowed, to allow hacking doors open and things, even if it takes a long time to do so.

@Born
Hello!
Gramarie is currently being torn up at the roots and restructured, so your discipline might not get the attention it normally would, and will need to be reorganized to be usable in the new version anyway.

That being said, I love me a new discipline.

I'll be as scathing and helpful as possible, because designing for gramarie is all about being told your project needs work. I hope you don't find this discouraging, it's just the way things are when you're trying to add on to a vast and complex system where redundancy is a bad word.

Most importantly, in my opinion, the discipline doesn't interact very much with other's, and doesn't encourage creativity. Besides the listed effects, there isn't much you can do with totems. As a contrasting example, you can use ALCH phlogiston and KALD red filters to make lightsabers, because the effects are open ended and can be used in many ways.

There are also some cases of redundancy with homebrewed and core content.

Harm and harbour can be emulated with transformers, absorbing or spraying the element.

You can set your totems to become active for the following convictions:

Hostility: The totem has a constant Detect Hostile Intent effect within its bubble, but the objects hostility is detected against are instead allies of the creator or any other creatures the creator designates upon creation. This can be changed by preparing the principle again or as a logical decision in an heuristical circuit. Depending on the active state's ability, this will be used to harm the aggressors or help the victims of such hostility.

Sirpercival's Diventropy let's you detect hostility with a divining rod, which can be connected to a circuit.

Proximity: A totem with this conviction activates whenever a creature enters the bubble except the negotiator. The Negotiator may allow certain creatures with a standard action and the negotiator may choose to include himself in the effect. The totem automatically begins targeting creatures within the bubble.

I'm fairly sure this is possible with just HEUR, once you start working with contingency triggers.

So effectively, all you need to say is it's activated as a logical decision.

The spiritual storage system is possible using gramaric batteris and the homebrewed PUIS discipline, and I think it's more along the lines of a discovery than a principle.

Extramundane Explosions is kind of also possible with PUIS. Sorry.

Voices from Beyond: I don't think direct mind control is possible, short of reducing the creatures to mindless and using the psychomantic tranciever I designed, but the discipline psychomantics already focuses on mind control, and the ability would probably fit better there.

Twin Bindings, why not have two totems?

Living Totem, I made a transformer that sucks people's souls out, or sticks them into things, acting as an animation engine. Sorry about preemptively taking all your ideas..


Anyway, away from the stifling negativity of criticism, what I think you should do:
Dissolve the discipline and expand on the remainder. I've done that myself twice, each time turning it into a prc. Making a discipline essentially requires you to see a gap which no one else has thought of before, which doesn't happen often.

You might be able to make a prc adept at putting together the devices you describe, but using the existing methods, and somehow mixing spirits into it in a new way. You might also be able to set them up as gramaric items, which I know exist, but know nothing about. You would want to talk to Milo about that.

Hopefully this isn't too discouraging for you. Ideas are usually very bad before they get good, and I like the concept of spirits. Other than whatever it is we talk to with ALCH, I don't think there is anything like that, and it could have some interesting potential.

[Milo v3]

I've altered how External Combustion and Get Phreaky work. I've also added reagents to the more advanced charges and descriptive text for the later immunities. Let me know what you think!

E: I've also made the table pretty and installed spoilers.

I'll have a more focused look once I finish some more BIOY work.

Hello everybody! I've been looking at gramarie and each time I look at it, I enjoy it more and more. So I decided to try my hand at a discipline. Its still WIP, but please critique what I have so far:

SNIP

Only skimmed, but what science is this utilizing?

[QUOTE=qazzquimby;17315121]I'll be as scathing and helpful as possible, because designing for gramarie is all about being told your project needs work. I hope you don't find this discouraging, it's just the way things are when you're trying to add on to a vast and complex system where redundancy is a bad word.[QUOTE]
Very well said.

You might also be able to set them up as gramaric items, which I know exist, but know nothing about. You would want to talk to Milo about that.

Just saying this now, my plan for Gramaric Items is probably going to be Gramaric Modifications that you can add to objects via principles. I currently only have a single military science drafted so far that functions using these Modifications, but as the system progresses we'll see if other people like the idea and if it should be used. So... yeah.... That's "Milo Talking 'bout It". Heh, that could be a segment name on a Gramarie youtube channel.

[BornValyrian]

Lots of Criticism

Thanks for the input. I guess I'm not as up to speed on gramarie as i thought. Oops. Looks like if I want to do this its a severe back-to-the-drawing-board.

Voices from Beyond: I don't think direct mind control is possible, short of reducing the creatures to mindless and using the psychomantic tranciever I designed, but the discipline psychomantics already focuses on mind control, and the ability would probably fit better there.

Ok. Psychomantics is great, by the way. Definitely one of my favorite disciplines.

Living Totem, I made a transformer that sucks people's souls out, or sticks them into things, acting as an animation engine. Sorry about preemptively taking all your ideas..

No worries, I should have done more research (this all pretty much came from a bout of procrastination). can you show me where this animation engine is though? My inspiration for the Living Totem was for a totem to be, say, a statue's pedestal, which animates the statue when it needs to.

Anyway, away from the stifling negativity of criticism, what I think you should do:
Dissolve the discipline and expand on the remainder. I've done that myself twice, each time turning it into a prc. Making a discipline essentially requires you to see a gap which no one else has thought of before, which doesn't happen often.

You might be able to make a prc adept at putting together the devices you describe, but using the existing methods, and somehow mixing spirits into it in a new way. You might also be able to set them up as gramaric items, which I know exist, but know nothing about. You would want to talk to Milo about that.

Hopefully this isn't too discouraging for you. Ideas are usually very bad before they get good, and I like the concept of spirits. Other than whatever it is we talk to with ALCH, I don't think there is anything like that, and it could have some interesting potential

Thanks. Like I said, this was probably much less well formed than it should have been and definitely needs a major rework. I'll have to look at it some other time.

[Mith]

@quazz: Do you think it would be feasible to turn totemisions into a series of blueprints? Or have they've been already done?

[qazzquimby]

A bunch of blueprints would be a good idea, depending on what Born/you (I dont know how to talk to two people) wants.

@Born, since fluff is free, you could make and post blueprints for all the devices you can think of, and stick some spirits in there. If you want to add something new, you could try thinking of fantastic machines that are impossible with current gramarie, and then add whatever is needed to make it possible. PRCs with principles are not a bad place to start, and you can upgrade later if enough material is made.

[Mith]

The only other thing I could think of with totemists is x-disciplines, but you would need 3 disciplines, which may make it to expensive in xp to be worthwhile. It makes great sentry guns.

[qazzquimby]

Could you rephrase that?

In my attempts to think of a medium for a spritish discipline I've come up with:

Creating small transient planes with their own effects
and
Creating links between two objects or creatures, with effects for either creature.

[Mith]

I was saying x-discipline for cross-disciple, and I count Divinetropy, Heuristics, and Pussimantics as being needed to make the totems, and getting enough skills in all three areas for one person is expensive in xp, if not banned from the rule set.

[qazzquimby]

Oh, true. I usually think in terms of teams of gramarists, but I don't know if that's realistic. You can always hire an npc, or buy a blueprint. Or the device blueprints can be used by DMs in place of magic items.

[Milo v3]

Ok. The following is the current ideas and work that's been done by the Council for this systems update. None of these ideas are set in stone and we would appreciate hearing the communities views on the approach.

General Notes
Current disciplines and principles are divided into Disciplines (ie. ALCH) containing Courses (ie. ALCH 101 - Intro to Alchemetry) containing Principles (ie. Durability Modification). A gramarist receives Training at each level: Academists get 8 points of training per level and Geneticist/Warmakers 5. Regardless of how many points a character receives per level, they cannot have more Training in a discipline than thrice their skill rank for that discipline's key skill. A gramarist has Training in a discipline equal to the number of Training points they have spent in that discipline. Training spent in a discipline can buy Principles from Courses that they meet the prerequisites of. If a principle has a number in brackets following its description (ie. [7] ) it requires that much prior training in the same course before it may be selected.

Instead of making checks whenever you prepare principles to determine quality, the check of 1d20 + 1/3 Training + Intelligence Modifier determines how much progress has been made with your preperation, functioning similarly to the crafting rules. This means that skilled gramarists can prepare principles at a faster rate than novice's.

The save for a Gramarie effect is 10 + 1/2 Effective Gramarist Level + Int. Some classes get to swap Int for some other stat. Your Effective Gramarist Level is equal to your levels in a class that advances training + 1/2 your other levels.

Other Notes

• Specialization is removed, as you can thematically specialize just with your point allocations
• Classes can get tags not specifically assigned to their class for disciplines they already have a tag with
• Classes with tags like Warmaker only grants it to a single discipline at first level rather than to all disciplines
• Every five levels you can choose to gain a tag for a discipline you have access to or learn a new discipline

To the other people from the subforum on minmax, tell me if I forgot something or I should reword a section, or something.

[sirpercival]

The only thing I think you're missing was the possibility of having Quality be dependent only on training, and not on the roll (so that you don't waste your time and materials to get a ****ty preparation); instead, have the roll affect how long it takes you to prepare the principle, a la Craft checks. (Grek has the actual writeup of this somewhere...)

[Mith]

The only thing I think you're missing was the possibility of having Quality be dependent only on training, and not on the roll (so that you don't waste your time and materials to get a ****ty preparation); instead, have the roll affect how long it takes you to prepare the principle, a la Craft checks. (Grek has the actual writeup of this somewhere...)

Personally, although I am not a part of this system rewrite, I agree that Quality shouldn't be dependent on the dice roll that heavily, since a high level character can still get a crappy result that would be uncharacteristic of that level's expectations if they make a bad roll.

[Fako]

Personally, although I am not a part of this system rewrite, I agree that Quality shouldn't be dependent on the dice roll that heavily, since a high level character can still get a crappy result that would be uncharacteristic of that level's expectations if they make a bad roll.

Which is exactly why it's moving to prep time instead of quality. A higher level character will have consistently better machines, and can produce machines faster than someone of lower level (due to bonus to the roll).

[sirpercival]

Personally, although I am not a part of this system rewrite, I agree that Quality shouldn't be dependent on the dice roll that heavily, since a high level character can still get a crappy result that would be uncharacteristic of that level's expectations if they make a bad roll.

Sure you are! Everyone is -- the Council was just trying to hammer out some details first, to help move things in a single direction.

[Mith]

Which is exactly why it's moving to prep time instead of quality. A higher level character will have consistently better machines, and can produce machines faster than someone of lower level (due to bonus to the roll)

OK. From sirpercival's quote I had thought it wasn't quite so decided at this point which idea to use.

[Grek]

(Grek has the actual writeup of this somewhere...)

Principles of Gramarie (Su): As a student of gramarie, you have many avenues of learning available to you. At each level, you gain a number of training points as indicated on your class table. These points of training may be used to learn principles, which are supernatural (Su) abilities which bend or break the laws of physics, but not quite in the same way that most magic does. Some principles have additional requirements which must be met as well - see their descriptions for details. Principles can be used whenever you have the time, materials and inclination; they are effectively usable at-will if you are in an appropriate situation. Each principle is part of a discipline and each discipline has a key skill associated with it. A student of gramarie may not spend more than three training points on principles from a discipline per skill rank they have in that discipline's key skill. If a principle references your Training, it refers to the total number of training points you have invested in that principle's discipline.

A principle is not cast, it is prepared. By preparing a principle multiple times, you can change the volume or size of the target affected. For example, if a principle targets 1 cubic foot of material, by preparing it twice (and thus spending twice as long on it) you could target 2 cubic feet of the material instead. A special case is made for bubbles, which are spherical effects. For more information on the size of bubbles, refer to the miscellaneous section at the end of this document. Preparing a principle is similar to crafting an item. When preparing a principle, follow these steps:

1. Find the principle's preparation time in rounds. To do so, multiply the time in minutes by ten.
2. Determine the base preparation DC by adding 15 to the principle's training point cost. You may voluntarily increase this DC in increments of 5 to work faster.
3. Make all the appropriate choices for the preparation. Gather the materials and spend the preparation time working. You must be able to touch the target of the principle for the duration of the preparation.
4. If the principle is being used on a creature or attended object and allows a save, that save is made at this time. The save type is based on the principle in question, but the save DC is always 10 + 1/6 Training + Int.
5. Make a Gramarie Check of 1d20 + 1/3 Training + Int. You can gain a bonus of up to +2 from having access to masterwork tools.
6. Compare your check to the preparation DC. If you fail by 4 or less, you make no progress preparing the principle. If you fail by 5 or more, you ruin half the required materials, damage the target of the principle or otherwise make some grave error. Otherwise, you succeed in making progress.
7. To determine how much progress was made, multiply the result of the check by the preparation DC and then add any prior progress. If the final value exceeds the preparation time in rounds, you have finished preparing the principle with a quality equal to your current training. If the final value is not high enough, add the resulting progress to the next attempt to prepare the principle.

Any progress beyond that needed to prepare the principle can be applied to further preparations, or, (if there is enough progress made) to prepare the principle multiple times in a single session. If multiple gramarists know the same principle, they can work simultaneously on the same project. Sum the progress of each gramarist participating in order to determine the total progress.

A gramarist may make a Gramarie check at any time to 'lock' a principle that has been prepared, meaning that only he can continue work on it later. Bypassing the lock requires making a Gramarie check 5 higher than the check made to lock the principle. Both locking a principle or bypassing the lock require one minute of work.

[Mith]

Just curious, I know that the Gramarie system is a lot more math based than regular D&D systems, but how does Gramarie preparations compare to artifact creation?

Also, is there plans to make a "take ten" method for this process, or maybe a quick calculation after every increase in Training which allows for a lowest possible prep time/ average prep time if no rolls are made?

[Grek]

No idea about artifact creation, but adding a take ten rule shouldn't be too difficult.