Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

[Incanur]

As far as Japanese swords against armor go, note that the 17th-century Zohyo Monogatari apparently advised arquebusiers to aim for the helmet with their swords. However, it also gave the option to target the hands and legs if swords in question had dull blades! This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and may be a translation issues, but I've also encountered various accounts of Japanese warriors who chose to strike at the helmeted head. As in Europe, folks could be borderline obsessed with delivering mighty blows and even had helmet-cutting competitions. Also like in Europe, I've read at least one account of a sword breaking from a strong blow against a helmet. There's plenty of evidence for grappling techniques and thrusts as well, of course. On the whole, though, it doesn't seem to correct to say sword strokes against helmets - at least some kinds of helmets - were completely useless. And there's always that case of a 20th-century Japanese soldier managing to dent a U.S. military helmet and knock out its wearer with a single blow from a katana in its steel scabbard.

[Citizen Nij]

Would it not make sense that, if you have no time to pull out something else, and knowing your sharp heavy bit of metal won't be good for anything else if you don't seriously mangle that guy walking towards you, you can at least do your best to try knocking him out of the fray for long enough to escape, by giving him a crack on the head with that heavy bit of metal in your hands right there?

Concussion and brain damage definitely occurs from heavy blows despite helmet wearing, padded or not. I doubt that the military of reasonably experienced cultures would have missed the fact that hey, knock him on the noggin hard enough and he's going down.

[Mr Beer]

question for those who are more knowledgeable about russain equipment than i am:

what the HELL is that thing at 3:32?

edit: a quick wikipedia scan shows it's one of these, which i have never heard of before, dispite looking bloody awesome. it looks like something out of Traveller or some other Sci fi RPG.

I see your hovercraft and raise you an ekranoplan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea_Monster

[snowblizz]

Would it not make sense that, if you have no time to pull out something else, and knowing your sharp heavy bit of metal won't be good for anything else if you don't seriously mangle that guy walking towards you, you can at least do your best to try knocking him out of the fray for long enough to escape, by giving him a crack on the head with that heavy bit of metal in your hands right there?

Concussion and brain damage definitely occurs from heavy blows despite helmet wearing, padded or not. I doubt that the military of reasonably experienced cultures would have missed the fact that hey, knock him on the noggin hard enough and he's going down.

As a note, what I've learned from these threads is that swords are not heavy at all. They are much lighter than what people in general (and museums!) tend to think.

Edit: I was going to mention what Rhynn pointed out but my colleagues came for lunch so had to cut my reply short.

A blow to the head does seem like something one would try. It's one of the more powerful strokes one can do (yes?) and it's against the centre mass so you'll most likely hit something. The added benefit being that the head is pretty important and even indirect damage can incapacitate.

[Rhynn]

As a note, what I've learned from these threads is that swords are not heavy at all. They are much lighter than what people in general (and museums!) tend to think.

I've learned that some museums refuse to even weigh the damn things!

But yes, if your sword isn't going to penetrate the armor, your best bet is probably to hit them over the head with it. A hard blow to the head - and a 2-pound sword can deliver quite a hard blow, especially when it's all concentrated on the sharp cutting edge - can certainly stun an opponent, even if it can't cut through the sword. A hard blow to the head could even cause a fracture or an internal bleed, which can render your opponent unconscious for a long time. (Just a few years ago, I had a family member in a coma for a week, with months of recovery afterwards, because they had a tiny bleed in their brain after tripping and hitting their head.)

[Talakeal]

Quick question:

Are there any historical examples of straight bladed single edged swords, and could anyone explain why they are such inferior weapons?

[Spiryt]

Quick question:

Are there any historical examples of straight bladed single edged swords, and could anyone explain why they are such inferior weapons?

Really plenty of them, most common names one can meet are 'backsword' or 'pallash'.

A lot of messers blades from late Medieval period were perfectly straight, but one edges, at least throughout the most of the blade.

Later, when one edged sabres became pretty uniform weapon of European cavalry, there were plenty of straight bladed ones as well.


Not sure what do you mean by 'inferior' TBH. Who says so, and in what sense?

[Brother Oni]

There's the ninjato, a straight singled-edged blade supposedly used by ninja.

The Saxon scramasax had a wide variety of shapes and forms, including some straight single-edged types.

I'm with Spiryt - what do you mean by 'inferior'? While the lack of a second cutting edge does change the techniques involved, it's easily adapted for and there's no real difference in lethality.

[GungHo]

As far as Japanese swords against armor go, note that the 17th-century Zohyo Monogatari apparently advised arquebusiers to aim for the helmet with their swords.

I didn't know that 17th Century Japan had their own G Gordon Liddy.

[Talakeal]

Really plenty of them, most common names one can meet are 'backsword' or 'pallash'.

A lot of messers blades from late Medieval period were perfectly straight, but one edges, at least throughout the most of the blade.

Later, when one edged sabres became pretty uniform weapon of European cavalry, there were plenty of straight bladed ones as well.


Not sure what do you mean by 'inferior' TBH. Who says so, and in what sense?

Artists mostly. My character uses a straight single edged sword and I am told that it is a ridiculous fantasy weapon that doesn't exist in the real world because it is worse than either a standard western double edged sword or a curved eastern sword.

[Brother Oni]

Artists mostly. My character uses a straight single edged sword and I am told that it is a ridiculous fantasy weapon that doesn't exist in the real world because it is worse than either a standard western double edged sword or a curved eastern sword.

Given that these artists believe a straight single-edged sword is a ridiculous fantasy weapon, I'm not inclined to trust their opinions on weapon handling and lethality. Do they also think that swords typically weigh 10+ lbs and viking helmets had horns?

[Talakeal]

Given that these artists believe a straight single-edged sword is a ridiculous fantasy weapon, I'm not inclined to trust their opinions on weapon handling and lethality. Do they also think that swords typically weigh 10+ lbs and viking helmets had horns?

Funny, that's the kind of thing they accuse me of for wanting to use a straight edged sword.

It is damn hard to find pictures of them, and apparently most of them you see in media, for example the Ninjaken, are Hollywood fabrications like said horned helmets.

[Spiryt]

Artists mostly. My character uses a straight single edged sword and I am told that it is a ridiculous fantasy weapon that doesn't exist in the real world because it is worse than either a standard western double edged sword or a curved eastern sword.

Well, I can help with some pictures, I guess.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=393

http://www.freha.pl/index.php?showtopic=3755&st=40

http://www.zornhau.de/wordpress/wp-c...blattZEF09.pdf

This schiavona looks single edged too, whole other side is visibly part of the fuller system

We have to keep in mind that of course, many, in not most of those can in fact have a false edge, or even be close to double edged towards the tip.

Definitions aren't simple.

[Rhynn]

Artists mostly. My character uses a straight single edged sword and I am told that it is a ridiculous fantasy weapon that doesn't exist in the real world because it is worse than either a standard western double edged sword or a curved eastern sword.

That's incorrect and ignorant, obviously. Backswords were very common, especially after the Renaissance as cavalry weapons. Granted, one reason for their popularity was probably that they were easier to make than two-edged swords, so they may not have been strictly better at any role than some two-edged sword would have been, but they certainly are no fantasy.

Anyone who thinks that no weapon would exist that wasn't the best for a job is obviously ignorant of basic military supply realities (balancing quality with cost, etc.). The M16 isn't even close to the best assault rifle, but it's what the US military has and what they have millions and millions of rounds of ammo for, so they're not going to switch primary service rifles or service rifle calibers any time soon.

Google Image Search "backsword" (some examples are two-edged, some have a false edge at the tip, but many are single-edged), and read up on basket-hilt swords here to start (and at myarmory.com, for instance) for more examples, like single-edged mortuary swords, etc.

Most spadroons were single-edged. Many cutlasses were straight, too.

With images, you may have some difficulty identifying single-edged swords, because they'll often have a false edge at the tip (that is, a bit of sharpened edge on the reverse edge right near the tip), for thrusting purposes.

[Brother Oni]

It is damn hard to find pictures of them, and apparently most of them you see in media, for example the Ninjaken, are Hollywood fabrications like said horned helmets.

To add to Spiryt's (Edit: and Rhynn's) list:

19th Century Spanish military straight edged sabre

Basket hilted sword

Seax of Beagnoth, an ~9th Century Saxon runic blade.

[Spiryt]

With images, you may have some difficulty identifying single-edged swords, because they'll often have a false edge at the tip (that is, a bit of sharpened edge on the reverse edge right near the tip), for thrusting purposes.

Or for cutting purposes.

It's impossible, sadly, to tell what exactly smiths and users could have in mind, but from theory and experiments, we can guess that tip cut would be quite hard if there was any significant 'spine' at the very tip, still.

Pretty good picture

of something that's called 'pałasz' though we can note that as much as 40% of blade lenght is actually double edged.

We can easily see where false edge starts, and how different it looks.

But, at least by looking, it seems that significant portion towards the tip is practically symmetrical

Looks rather 'type XIII', I mean, spatulate, flat tip.

That's just theory, of course, dunno if there's any bigger 'review' of this sword sadly, other than short museum note.

[AgentPaper]

So, it's not so much a matter of "do straight single-edged blades exist" but "why are you using one instead of a double-edged straight blade or a curved single-edge blade?" Assuming you're some variety of adventurer, cost isn't really going to make sense basically no matter what, so it'd have to be some preference of the character himself. If this is DnD (or similar), it could just be that the magic sword he has is single-edged and straight. If it's not magic, or he's switching (upgrading) weapons all the time and still only using single-edged ones, it starts to make less sense since having a second edge doesn't seem like it would really change his fighting style any, and would only open up new options for him, unless he was fighting bare-handed and often put his hand on the dull part while parrying or making some kind of fancy move. Or if he was just really stubborn and wanted to use a single-edged straight blade for sentimental or even religious reasons.

You could also come up with a bunch of crackpot reasons that he thinks straight-edge blades are better, which don't have to make 100% sense. IE: single-edged weapons are more aerodynamic, or the dull part is good for knocking people out non-lethally, or sharpening the other side makes the sword weaker, or he'd never need to cut anyone with the second side anyways, or whatever other half-baked reasons you can come up with. As long as your character thinks it's a good idea, it's perfectly in-character for him to use them, even if it doesn't really make sense in reality.

[Mr. Mask]

Ninjato: The idea of these being used by shinobi is derived from old Japanese plays. These swords were often given as offerings at temples, so they gave them to the ninja in the play to make them seem more ominous, more like ghosts who wield temple swords.


Viking Horns: The idea of Vikings wearing horns is largely fiction, with only one good piece of evidence I recall pointing to important Vikings wearing horns. Still, the idea of a horned helm isn't ridiculous. Since we only recovered one Viking helm of the period which I know of, even the idea of Vikings with horns isn't ridiculous.


Straight, single-edged blade: Really, you only need one true edge on your blade. The main purpose of a second true edge is as a backup. If one side of your sword gets too damaged, you can turn it and keep fighting. You can use a second true edge in a fight, more due to oversight, bad technique, and desperation than as an actual technique, so far as I can remember.

The main time I can think of using it aside from forgetting to turn your arm/wrist for the attack, is that after a thrust you can slice with the blade, so if your opponent dodged to the side with the false edge it would be a pity. The other benefit I see is that a double edged blade would be more difficult to grab without injury.

For benefits, the main one which comes to mind is economic. Polishing, sharpening, making one true edge is quicker than two--the time stacks up when you need to make ten thousand swords for an armed force. It would also be a bit easier to keep one edge than two, but that seems too trivial an aspect to worry about, to me. You can also brace your hand or body against the back of your blade with a false edge, which can make for some very nice techniques.

As for a straight blade, the main advantage that comes to mind is it may be faster/cheaper to produce than a curved one. A curved blade has an easier cut, and possibly a better skilled cut. A straight blade might have some advantages in wrestling in the European style of harness-fighting, while curved blades can be used to hook around parries somewhat. Depending on your fighting style, you may find the curved blade better. In the end, I don't think it matters too strongly.

[Rhynn]

Ninjato: The idea of these being used by shinobi is derived from old Japanese plays. These swords were often given as offerings at temples, so they gave them to the ninja in the play to make them seem more ominous, more like ghosts who wield temple swords.

"Ninja weapons" in general are either fantasy, later invention/convention, or misinterpretation. (For instance, shuriken are real weapons, but they weren't "ninja weapons"; shurikenjutsu was and is still taught by many koryu.) Just like basically everything about ninja. (In the Sengoku period, for instance, the favorite ninja outfit seems to have been an enemy uniform, and their favorite activity seems to have been sneaking into enemy castles to start fires.)

The idea that someone would create a type of weapon for no other purpose than to mark themselves as a disguised assassin/saboteur is contrary and ludicrous. Even if special "Swiss army swords" for ninja existed, they would have been the same in design as other swords. (Not that I'm saying no one ever hid stuff in their swords hilt or scabbard.)

Viking Horns: The idea of Vikings wearing horns is largely fiction, with only one good piece of evidence I recall pointing to important Vikings wearing horns. Still, the idea of a horned helm isn't ridiculous. Since we only recovered one Viking helm of the period which I know of, even the idea of Vikings with horns isn't ridiculous.

There's actually a lot of horned helmets, they just weren't a Viking thing specifically, but mostly a Bronze Age thing (see the Waterloo helmet). I have a hard time thinking most of those enormous montrosities weren't ceremonial (just like most double-bitted axes, or labrys), but I guess if the horns were hollow they might be fine to wear with a strap under the chin.

[Mr. Mask]

That about covers ninja. There were theories of terror weapons/tactics they may have used I've seen, but I haven't looked into their validity.

And yes, there are a lot of very weird helmets out there. some were ceremonial, but some weren't. It was surprising what some people wore into battle. Helmets are best worn with straps regardless of horns.

[Deffers]

The M16 isn't even close to the best assault rifle,

Reading this actually got me on a tangent from the current topic at hand, heh.

What is the best assault rifle? Assuming cost isn't a parameter, is there any assault rifle that roundly outperforms the M16 platform in terms of accuracy, durability/performance in harsh conditions, and lightness? I've heard good things about the SCAR-L platform, but I honestly don't know.

[warty goblin]

Straight, single-edged blade: Really, you only need one true edge on your blade. The main purpose of a second true edge is as a backup. If one side of your sword gets too damaged, you can turn it and keep fighting. You can use a second true edge in a fight, more due to oversight, bad technique, and desperation than as an actual technique, so far as I can remember.

The main time I can think of using it aside from forgetting to turn your arm/wrist for the attack, is that after a thrust you can slice with the blade, so if your opponent dodged to the side with the false edge it would be a pity. The other benefit I see is that a double edged blade would be more difficult to grab without injury.

Not quite correct. The German fechtbucher contain multiple cuts that use the short edge. I believe Fiore dei Liberi also covers techniques that use the short edge as well, although I'm less familiar with his work. It's not a matter of forgetting to turn your wrist as it is that in some cases the false edge can deliver a more powerful strike, or else be geometrically advantageous.

[Mr. Mask]

Goblin: Fair enough. I spoke too soon.


Deffers: Depends what characteristics you want and prefer. Generally speaking, my first thought would be the AK series. Good assault rifles, simple, extremely reliable.

[Jay R]

Not quite correct. The German fechtbucher contain multiple cuts that use the short edge. I believe Fiore dei Liberi also covers techniques that use the short edge as well, although I'm less familiar with his work. It's not a matter of forgetting to turn your wrist as it is that in some cases the false edge can deliver a more powerful strike, or else be geometrically advantageous.

Specifically, it is much easier to attack around a shield, either around to the shield side or over the top, with the inside edge.

This guy starts by showing you an inside edge shot, although most of the video is about a more advanced shot that starts the same way.

[Deffers]

Deffers: Depends what characteristics you want and prefer. Generally speaking, my first thought would be the AK series. Good assault rifles, simple, extremely reliable.

My problem with that is that it achieves this durability through extremely loose tolerances--not that this is a bad thing, but it does result in lost accuracy past one hundred or so meters. In terms of the assault rifles I've fired, the AK platform is pretty spiffy in terms of ease-of-use and it was great for my first time at the range. The AR-15 didn't feel as simple to use-- not that it's a complicated wonder machine, but I could get how to reload the AK's banana mags very easy and the rock-back click is very easy to listen for. But it wasn't highly accurate. Great for my newb first try, but my buddy who actually owned the AK-47 in question has done a lot of more in-depth stuff with it and he says it leaves something to be desired for towards the upper end of the 300 m range assault rifles are expected to be useful at.

I was just wondering if there was anything beyond those very well-known assault rifle platforms (AK and M16) that exceeded or matched them in terms of accuracy and durability. Let's focus on those, and give bonus points for maneuverability and lightness.

[GraaEminense]

Funny, that's the kind of thing they accuse me of for wanting to use a straight edged sword.

It is damn hard to find pictures of them, and apparently most of them you see in media, for example the Ninjaken, are Hollywood fabrications like said horned helmets.

Something like a third of all Scandinavian viking swords found are straight single-edged swords.

Spoiler: Like this one.

Show

They don't seem to have much of a false edge, mostly. The reason is probably economic as mentioned above, possibly cultural preference or tradition ("This is what my father taught me!").
While it would seem likely that they were inferior to the two-edged swords, the difference can't have been all that much given how common they are.

I want to say something about single-edged straight swords often having better blade presence and more "punch" than their two-edged counterparts of the same weight and size, but that is purely anecdotal evidence based on a few people's handling of a limited number of weapons in artificial conditions and I can't back it up with physics... so I won't.

Anyway, you should have what you need to get them off your back by now.

[Mike_G]

As others have said, there are plenty of examples of single edged straight swords. Some points to consider:

Most cuts will use the true or leading edge of the blade. Yes, you can make cuts with the other edge, but not as strongly, and they aren't as common. A lot of those can be done with the "false edge" near the point, which was often sharpened on single edged swords. Simple cruciform hilted designs could be used with either edge as the leading edge, but when more complex guards came into being, you couldn't turn the weapon and use the other edge as the leading.

A thicker spine on a single edged blade can make it stiffer and give a better thrust

A single edged sword can use a sharper angle to the edge. All cutting edges are wedges, when you get down to it. A double edged sword is two wedges back to back, with the thick part in the middle. A single edged sword's cross section can look like a very elongated triangle where a double edged sword will look more like a diamond. So, for the same weight and breadth of blade, you can have a more acute angle toward one cutting edge than two, with the same weight behind it.

There are plenty of reasons to use double edged, but single edged was common and had enough going for it that nobody should really question it.

[fusilier]

So, it's not so much a matter of "do straight single-edged blades exist" but "why are you using one instead of a double-edged straight blade or a curved single-edge blade?" Assuming you're some variety of adventurer, cost isn't really going to make sense basically no matter what, so it'd have to be some preference of the character himself. If this is DnD (or similar), it could just be that the magic sword he has is single-edged and straight. If it's not magic, or he's switching (upgrading) weapons all the time and still only using single-edged ones, it starts to make less sense since having a second edge doesn't seem like it would really change his fighting style any, and would only open up new options for him, unless he was fighting bare-handed and often put his hand on the dull part while parrying or making some kind of fancy move. Or if he was just really stubborn and wanted to use a single-edged straight blade for sentimental or even religious reasons.

You could also come up with a bunch of crackpot reasons that he thinks straight-edge blades are better, which don't have to make 100% sense. IE: single-edged weapons are more aerodynamic, or the dull part is good for knocking people out non-lethally, or sharpening the other side makes the sword weaker, or he'd never need to cut anyone with the second side anyways, or whatever other half-baked reasons you can come up with. As long as your character thinks it's a good idea, it's perfectly in-character for him to use them, even if it doesn't really make sense in reality.

Somewhere, I read that early (16th century) backswords were popular when hunting -- the blade will be stiffer, which can be better for a thrust under certain conditions, and also fairly robust.

[Mr. Mask]

Deffers: Personally, its lesser accuracy at those ranges doesn't bother me. I think soldiers were stated to rarely fire beyond 70 yards, wasn't it?That being said, I'm not disagreeing with your approach, taking enemies out at range is nice.

The M16 has the qualities you describe, good accuracy and light weight. I can't remember if there was a particular assault rifle that fired better over long ranges. For manoeuvrability, one of the bullpup rifles would be best, if you don't want an SMG.

You probably were familiar with this already, though. Sorry I wasn't much help.

[Incanur]

Here is an example of (mostly) straight single-edged sword with complex edge geometry. I've never handled the design, but I suspect it performs as well as anything. Note that the back of the blade is sharpened near the point, as is typically for single-edged swords.

And of course single-handed backswords saw lots of service. Assuming a basket hilt (or most any sort of complex hilt), experts seem to think backswords function equivalently to two-edge blades.