Turf War - GAME ENDED

[Disc Lorde]

Could you redirect me to which points in particular? I thought I hit everything that was germane to the current topics.

Mostly my suspicions on TFT.

I'm keeping my vote. My suspicions have grown, if anything, the more I think about it.

I mean, he jumped on a bandwagon for a flimsy reason. That's wolf behavior right there.

He claimed it was a joke, but another veteran claimed it's not his style to joke as town. (As a side note, I don't think it was very funny.)

...

What part of that explanation sufficed to take suspicion off him? He basically said "oops, my bad" when called on wolfish actions, which is a common wolf response. I used it in the last mafia game I played.

That said, Recaiden's not looking like a bad bet to me at this point. He pointed at you, didn't give a reason until called on it, and hasn't contributed to the discussion except to make and defend his vote.

[Gnrlshrimp]

If I'm right and Doctor Whooves is not the accountant, would it be wise for the real accountant to reveal themselves especially since, at the moment, Whooves is at risk of being lynched anyway? If it's not necessary, why do it?

Similarly, why would we automatically accept a counter-claim as any more legitimate than Whooves' claim?

The encouraging discussion thing, I think, is never going to stop baffling me as an argument against someone being a wolf. It just feels incredibly flimsy. We're all encouraging discussion, and some of the people who've done so already are wolves for sure. And as everyone talks it seems equally possible that for every wolf that slips up, a townie phrases something poorly or in a way that can be misinterpreted to make them seem like a wolf too.

[Abhorsen]

I'm switching my vote to DoctorWhooves, because I think Recaiden is innocent. Specifically, I think he's being unfairly singled out. A lot of people didn't care for Whooves' tone - myself included - Recaiden just happened to be the first one to voice it.

[Count Dingdong]

As I said before, here's a vote update. There are now a bit more than 12 hours left in the day.

DoctorWhooves - 7 (Recaiden, Bunny of Faith, Gnrlshrimp, Reinholdt, Lord Herman, Penguinator, Abhorsen)
Recaiden - 5+1? (DoctorWhooves, Zar Peter, Murska, Legato Endless, Fleeing Coward)
Fleeing Coward - 4 (Grue Bait, Cuthalion, Lex-Kat, Count Dingdong)
Count Dingdong - 3 (Chessgeek, Fan, BitterMelonFarm)
The Fiery Tower - 3 (Disc Lorde, Jacklu, Meta)
Zjoot - 2 (ThePhantom, Thadria)
Meta - 2 (reaverb, 52.5 Lemons)
Zar Peter - 2 (Skippy, Zjoot)
Grue Bait - 1 (Ramsus)
52.5 Lemons - 1 (LoP)
Murska - 1 (BasketOfPuppies)
Dallas-Dakota - 1 (Duck999)
BasketOfPuppies - 1 (Nonayer)
Lord Herman - 1 (banjo1985)
banjo1985 - 1 (Dallas-Dakota)
Duck999 - 1 (EmeraldRose)
Gnrlshrimp - 1 (The Fiery Tower)

No Vote - 6 (C'nor, Yumori123, Diva De, bladescape, Gray Mage, DarkLightDragon)

I didn't check if anyone forgot to cross out points, so I'm just making a general reminder in case people forgot: when you change your vote, cross out your previous point. ...though, I'm pretty sure Meta is still forgetting to cross out his votes, so... yeah. Another reminder there.

((Also, thanks for liking my name, BitterMelonFarm! ...sadly, your love only earned me a lynch vote. ))

[BitterMelonFarm]

Don't worry, it looks like you are safe!

[Abhorsen]

Count, I'm the last vote on Whooves, not Whooves himself.

[Count Dingdong]

I, umm... I have a tendency to do that on accident. If I do that elsewhere, please tell me. I was thinking "Abhorsen voted for DoctorWhooves," which meant DoctorWhooves was more recent in my mind. I also have a tendency to skip past letters in words when writing for the same reason... Whelp, going to change it now. >.>

[Disc Lorde]

Switching my vote to Recaiden before that wagon gets any farther behind.

If I'm right and Doctor Whooves is not the accountant, would it be wise for the real accountant to reveal themselves especially since, at the moment, Whooves is at risk of being lynched anyway? If it's not necessary, why do it?

Because he's only at risk of being lynched. It's not a certainty. So the real accountant revealing themself would make that a near certainty and ensure that we don't waste a lynch. At worst, it would result in a 1 wolf and 1 town lynch, which is good for town overall.

Similarly, why would we automatically accept a counter-claim as any more legitimate than Whooves' claim?

We wouldn't necessarily, but again, at worst it would result in 1 wolf and 1 villager lynch.

The encouraging discussion thing, I think, is never going to stop baffling me as an argument against someone being a wolf. It just feels incredibly flimsy. We're all encouraging discussion, and some of the people who've done so already are wolves for sure.

It's not absolute proof of being a townie. It is, however, a pro-town action.

And as everyone talks it seems equally possible that for every wolf that slips up, a townie phrases something poorly or in a way that can be misinterpreted to make them seem like a wolf too.

There's generally a difference between poor phrasing and wolf-like behavior, and even though it sometimes results in mistakes, it's the best way of finding wolves there is, definitely better than random voting. If you want proof that it works, you need only go to the Classic Werewolf thread in this very subforum and look at the first day.

[Legato Endless]

If I'm right and Doctor Whooves is not the accountant, would it be wise for the real accountant to reveal themselves especially since, at the moment, Whooves is at risk of being lynched anyway? If it's not necessary, why do it?

Similarly, why would we automatically accept a counter-claim as any more legitimate than Whooves' claim?

The encouraging discussion thing, I think, is never going to stop baffling me as an argument against someone being a wolf. It just feels incredibly flimsy. We're all encouraging discussion, and some of the people who've done so already are wolves for sure. And as everyone talks it seems equally possible that for every wolf that slips up, a townie phrases something poorly or in a way that can be misinterpreted to make them seem like a wolf too.

The accountant is the least important town power role. Excepting the masons who work a bit differently, the accountant has the least to lose by having his or her identity revealed. 2 votes amid 40 is a pretty situational power at best, and were I a wolf, it would ping pretty low on ky kill list, even if I felt I could get away with it without attracting a ruckus. The real loss with a claim is that the wolves can knock a suspect off their list as they hunt for one of the genuinely potent roles.

No one is saying we would automatically accept the new claim either. And honestly that seems unlikely that more energetic conversation would benefit Tye wolves on average. The town doesn't have to maintain a facade and keep a double narrative. The average townie is going to have a much easier time simply interacting than Tye wolves, who have to avoid letting something slip.

[Meta]

As I said before, here's a vote update. There are now a bit more than 12 hours left in the day.

DoctorWhooves - 7 (Recaiden, Bunny of Faith, Gnrlshrimp, Reinholdt, Lord Herman, Penguinator, Abhorsen)
Recaiden - 5+1? (DoctorWhooves, Zar Peter, Murska, Legato Endless, Fleeing Coward)
Fleeing Coward - 4 (Grue Bait, Cuthalion, Lex-Kat, Count Dingdong)
Count Dingdong - 3 (Chessgeek, Fan, BitterMelonFarm)
The Fiery Tower - 3 (Disc Lorde, Jacklu, Meta)
Zjoot - 2 (ThePhantom, Thadria)
Meta - 2 (reaverb, 52.5 Lemons)
Zar Peter - 2 (Skippy, Zjoot)
Grue Bait - 1 (Ramsus)
52.5 Lemons - 1 (LoP)
Murska - 1 (BasketOfPuppies)
Dallas-Dakota - 1 (Duck999)
BasketOfPuppies - 1 (Nonayer)
Lord Herman - 1 (banjo1985)
banjo1985 - 1 (Dallas-Dakota)
Duck999 - 1 (EmeraldRose)
Gnrlshrimp - 1 (The Fiery Tower)

No Vote - 6 (C'nor, Yumori123, Diva De, bladescape, Gray Mage, DarkLightDragon)

I didn't check if anyone forgot to cross out points, so I'm just making a general reminder in case people forgot: when you change your vote, cross out your previous point. ...though, I'm pretty sure Meta is still forgetting to cross out his votes, so... yeah. Another reminder there.

((Also, thanks for liking my name, BitterMelonFarm! ...sadly, your love only earned me a lynch vote. ))

Muh bad. I gave it a quick look just now, but was bested by formatting . After work I'll come back and strikethrough them.

[Disc Lorde]

Abhorsen, Recaiden's vote for Whooves wasn't suspicious. Not explaining it until pressured and not contributing to the discussion beyond that however, is kinda. I'm not sure about him either, but we have very good reason to believe that DorctorWhooves is innocent. At least switch your vote to someone else please.

[TFT]

Okay, since no one else is following my lead I'm changing my vote to Recaiden.

I'd find it rather prudent if people didn't change their votes unless there is a much better option, because this makes the vote lynch Whooves if he is the accountant and recaiden if he isn't. And that means we have him verified, so people can stop trying to lynch him because he comes off as cocky.

[banjo1985]

Switching to Fleeing Coward, though the temptation to vote for Whooves is strong. At least that makes three decent sized wagons, as I think Recaiden is getting a hard deal here. Come on guys, he always plays like that, and no amount of accusations and blundering round like a bull in a china shop will change that.

Whooves, you say you've toned it back, yet you still react to Penguinator's vote with an answer laden with aggression. This approach is likely to get you lynched fairly quickly, no matter what role you are, as most of the folks here just don't enjoy playing that way. We play these games for fun, and expect every other player to treat people with some dignity and respect. For what it's worth, I'd class Penguinator as one of the tougher players here, so when he's ready to lynch you for your attitude I stand up and take notice.

It's not as if an outed Accountant is particularly useful. It's a role that does it's best work behind the scenes, deciding close wagons, and that opportunity is gone already.

I refuse to do the wolves work for them though, so FC it is.

[bladescape]

What happened to this thread...

I haven't looked in depth so from what I can tell Whooves is the uncounterclaimed Accountant and Fleeing Coward is the best option I can think of.

On a side note, I don't care for Whooves attitude so far either. Banjo has said most of what I'd say, so I'm not going to repeat it all, but bear that in mind please.

Don't expect much activity from me Mon - Thur. I might find time Fri - Sun but definitely won't happen Mon - Thur. I (Hopefully) won't miss a vote but I will be forced to skimread if this much activity continues to happen.

Murska, Fleeing Coward, Lex-Kat, Banjo and Ramsus would be my first inclinations. Murska is most likely to steer the village astray and not get caught, Ramsus and FC are most likely to make big tricky plays, and Lex-Kat is uncannily sneaky. Banjo claims he's out of practice, but he still probably coordinates a team just as well as he used to (he makes a great wolf and an even better mason). Others may disagree with my assessment though.

You'll notice I could have voted for FC for the tie, but, though he is dangerous as a wolf, he is a very useful asset as a villager as well and I prefer not to rush in to a lynch in his case.

Also, while I'm here I'm going to profess my sadness at not making this list.

I still remember the glory days when I used to be ranked up with Murska and co. Then again, I've been relatively inactive and kinda mediocre since my return, so definitely a warranted lack of presence.

EDIT:
Allow me to clarify something that actually isn't covered by Banjo. Though it's touched on earlier in the thread. Yes, we aren't a particularly active forum, it's true. I know for a certainty, having played on the deep darkness of the likes of Mafiascum, that it is a very different game.

But, we aren't entirely casuals. We enjoy analysis, or at least some of us do, so long as it doesn't take too long to read and it doesn't insult people. Probably the biggest centrepoint of the culture here is respect. The game is for fun, and while a majority of us take it seriously up to a point, if the game becomes more about winning than about fun then insults start cropping in and respect drops. That's where we generally don't cross. And that's why I've spent more years here than any other mafia website, or werewolf website.

And on top of that I myself have currently got a lot of work to deal with, as I stated above. I'm not going to be ABLE to be active. A lot of our players have similar situations. As it is I'm sort of uptight enough to actually take sleeping time away just to get this all written up so that hopefully you can either understand and join in our fun or understand why we can't stand how you play. Or have played a majority of the firstday. The wall of text post was a vast improvement, though again we have a few that prefer not to read a lengthy read, and shortening notes down works much better. (Trick would be to clump all notes about each player together, and link posts rather than quote, and paraphrase.) (That being said, this is going to be a lengthy one, so sorry Lex! )

First day here generally has a lot of randomness and silliness, and often the first day won't mean too much. I know it seems odd, but it fits with again, the 'lower' wolf rate than you're used to, because we're not all wasting our hours on the game.

Probably a lot of this was covered in a few of the posts, I already forget. Running on four hours sleep as it is and I'm only going to get 5 at most and that's only if I fall asleep within the next 9 mins. So, I hope this makes sense, and goodnight.

I think the FC vote might be a mistake after all, but too tired to double-check and change.

[Chessgeek]

Also, while I'm here I'm going to profess my sadness at not making this list.

I still remember the glory days when I used to be ranked up with Murska and co. Then again, I've been relatively inactive and kinda mediocre since my return, so definitely a warranted lack of presence.

If it helps, I always remember that phantom of the opera game whenever I start to think you're town.

[Zar Peter]

I would love a counter-claim to be honest. I'll trade one-for-one with wolves all day.

Yeah, that's the reason I believe you. Don't know exactly why my post came out suspicous. Well. And thank you for adapting, it's much better today.

[LoP]

HOLY CRUD, I step away for a day and this game explodes. I thought Day 1 on this WW forum was just randapoints and jokes!

Anyway, I agree pretty hard with banjo and bladescape about the nature of this forum, speaking as a relative newcomer myself. There is a lot of what I call "spray and pray" voting, and then after the fact vote analysis, and a lot less outright lying, counterlying, and scheming I see in other forums - but BECAUSE of that I find this forums community more fun. Haven't seen permanent grudges form here the way I see them show up elsewhere. Its also slower paced, which suits my schedule much better now that things are getting hairy.

We got a lot of discussion going and a few healthy pressurewagons to get info from, thanks to Whooves, who seems to be trying to control his patronizing tone (HEY, HINT: CONTROL YOUR PATRONIZING TONE A LIL MORE PLEASE. :-P). So people voting for him cuz they don't like the way he's speaking, please consider cutting him some slack later on because I actually found a lot of what he said pretty helpful - perhaps not relevant given this community, but it sure got a lot of people active. And voting for someone because of reasons outside the game - dunno, maybe understandable, but not helpful? Be the superior person and be big minded!

Someone I WON'T be cutting any slack on is Fleeing Coward, because while wading through these posts I don't think I heard anything substantial from him. And in my limited experience he's the most dangerous of all the pressurewagon choices right now.

Also, since I love Recaiden's avvy. :p

[Recaiden]

My, this thread moves quickly.

Switching my point to Fleeing Coward.

And Banjo makes a good point; I do always play like this. If I don't think I have anything figured out (and by my first post, I didn't) I won't be explaining. Look at...any other game I've played.

[Disc Lorde]

Switching to Fleeing Coward myself as well, on Banjo's advice. Anyone got a vote count?

Edit: Actually, it doesn't look like that wagon needs any help, so I'm right back to The Fiery Tower.

[banjo1985]

I am now getting slightly concerned by the strength of the counter wagon that has built up behind me.

For a start, I like FC, he's one of the old-timers like me. The amount of times I've been done over by him are countless, but it's always been in good humour. Are people taking an opportunity to try and off one of our strongest players, using my defence of Recaiden as a cover?

Just something to be careful of, I guess.

On the downside, if FC is a good role, or Recaiden turns out to be a wolf, I am pretty much screwed.

[Meta]

I think FC is at 9 now, with Whooves and Rec trailing. FC is far enough ahead that we can't test Whooves' claim without some votes being shifted around. I believe him, but we might as well stay sharp and test nonetheless.

Can someone who bandwagoned on FC explain the rationale to me? I had him pegged pretty neutral but I admit you lot know him better. I still had a few people above him, personally.

~3.5 hours left I believe.

[banjo1985]

Switching away from FC to Dr Whooves to makes the tallies closer. The point of this was to try and get several close wagons to test the Accountant claim, and if FC's running away with it then that's no good.

[Reinholdt]

From my knowledge of FC, if he were a wolf, he would have false role-claimed by now and run town around in circles trying to determine if he's lying or not. So he's probably not one.

Just a guess. Maybe he's trying something new.

[LoP]

Oops, did we tip the balance on the wagons? on a phone, a little hard to vote tally

[Disc Lorde]

As a note, testing the Accountant claim only works if DoctorWhooves gets on in time to change his vote, as I don't think many of us want to lynch Recaiden.

[Yumori Zatsuken]

It seems I missed something. I'm a bit in a hurry, care to fill in the details?

[Abhorsen]

It seems I missed something. I'm a bit in a hurry, care to fill in the details?

Doctor Whooves comes from another board with a different playstyle. This rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, all the more so because of his suspicious-seeming comments about being "invaluable to town", followed shortly by roleclaiming as the Accountant.

Before Whooves roleclaimed, Recaiden pointed at him for being generally shifty. Whooves seized on this as "evidence" that Recaiden was a wolf and began leading a wagon against him. A counterwagon against Whooves started, as well as a wagon against Fleeing Coward, on general principle. The rest of the day has been these three wagons ebbing and flowing as people try to figure out who it would be best to lynch.

Edit: Looking at current vote tallies, with only a couple hours left in the day, and me off to work before that, I'm going to make one last tactical vote change and point at Fleeing Coward.

[DoctorWhooves]

I'm keeping my vote. My suspicions have grown, if anything, the more I think about it.

I mean, he jumped on a bandwagon for a flimsy reason. That's wolf behavior right there.

A lot of people jumped on my bandwagon for not great reasons. Fiery had a bad jokey reason to vote me and I don't like it much, but he's done well since then. He tried to follow up on Gnrlshrimp. I don't feel that's a valuable avenue to pursue at the moment but he was willing to take a stab at it. He came back and changed his vote to something more meaningful today as well.

I'm not happy about changing my vote from Reccy and I still don't know why Fleeting has amassed such a following beyond his past games. But maybe I can defer to the wisdom of those who know him best. And since my computer is having trouble charging I have no idea if I'll be able to check in as frequently as i'd like. So for the time being put both of my votes on Fleeting Coward.

[Disc Lorde]

Pretty much what Abhorsen said. There's also been a few miscellaneous votes thrown around and I've been trying to start a wagon on The Fiery Tower because I found his opening post suspicious.

[Disc Lorde]

Again, I don't find TFT's newer posts convincing. Sure, they're pro-town, but as I understand he's smart enough to make those moves regardless of his role.

Not that we can point at anyone with 100% certainty. This is just my educated guess.