Kill la Kill: The first life fiber is what?!

[Terraoblivion]

Unless it was funded under some unique circumstances and isn't at least in part out to please its financial backers with a profit of some kind. The content doesn't suggest itself thus to me (like our Nudists not quite being nudists) this is still a show looking to play by the book enough to be a marketable and successful product.

If it's purely about money they're doing something wrong. Being highly ecchi and sexual isn't generally a recipe for huge marketability and success. The most marketable anime out there is Sazae-san, followed by PreCure, Doraemon and Crayon Shin-Chan in some order. And of shows that are actually readily available to western nerds, the most successful and marketable over the last decade has been K-On, because it actually managed to be quite successful with people other than the late-night otaku crowd.

All the fanservice makes sure Kill la Kill will never, ever get a primetime showing or be something you'll show to people who aren't otaku. Not just that, it prevents it from even being the kind of otaku hit that shows like Madoka, Haruhi, Gundam or Evangelion have been, by not only alienating female otaku, both fujoshi and otherwise, but also people who are looking for something other than sex. Of course, having a virtually non-existent budget it might be a good financial idea because there aren't a lot of other visual approaches they can try to work with and none of the people involved have been known for their great skill at writing.

In any case, if an appealing character design to you has to be inherently sexual, does that mean that you've never seen a male character you thought looked cool?

Also, nudity being sexual is intrinsically tied to the nudity taboo and you cannot have one without the other. The options with nudity being sexual is that either you cover people up when you don't want things to be about sex, which is essentially what the nudity taboo is, or everything ends up being about sex, which would be rather impractical and distracting when talking about most things. At least I know that I'd rather not be reminded of sex when hearing about the outcome of Syrian peace negotiations or EU-US free trade agreements. There is also the very obvious fact that people tend to favor female nudity which would essentially mean that people would consider women to be inherently sexual, regardless of the context. That has quite a number of well-documented negative effects in terms of employment equality and similar.

And I'm expecting the show to be philosophical, alien and off-putting by saying that it is skeevy and sexist for insisting that women have to give a show and that it's innocent when men leer, make cat calls and masturbate over it? It seems to be a pretty mainstream demand. I certainly can't think of a whole lot of works outside of porn that doesn't operate on the assumptions that that isn't okay. If you mean my comments about how it could have done its commentary properly, well that just means they shouldn't have tried it, doesn't it? If you can't do something without being offensive then the answer is to not do it.

Oh, and Free! has shown that male nudity sells quite well, given its financial success. So does the success of BL which tends to get rather explicit, for that matter.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Also, Junketsu seems far more problematic than Senketsu. More like a devouring monster than a "friend". Could it be the base on which Senketsu has been projected?

I tend to think she's having some a sort of reverse of Ryuko in that she can't "hear" or doesn't listen to Junketsu and its hampering her long term relationship thus manifesting by slowly draining her.

And its Junketsu that's being abused...

[Tengu_temp]

Ummm, whats your problem with it?

1. Too much in-your-face fanservice. It's juvenile and unappealing.
2. Rape and sexual harassment are constantly presented as harmless and/or played for comedy.
3. Annoying rabid fanbase that claims this show is single-handedly saving anime from the wave of moe ****, and goes "oh boo hoo hoo, you hate this show because you're a tumblr social justice warrior/prude who can't tolerate fanservice" if you don't like it.
4. Ridiculous nudist message. The show thinks clothes are evil, or in other words: fanservice is good, non-fanservice is bad.
5. The animation is cheap and has no dynamic to it. The sole saving grace of this show could've been the fight scenes (look at this team's portfolio - they made some amazing fight scenes!), but that simply didn't happen.

Kill la Kill is probably the most sexist and offensive anime of this decade, and aside from some hentai, maybe even ever. It's the kind of thing that gives anime watchers a reputation for being sleazy, unwashed neckbeards who only think of girls as objects to fap to.
And if you leave all this objectionable content out, then you're just left with a cheap, badly written show that fails as a story, as a comedy, and as a spectacle.

If I want a goofball comedy with great action scenes, ridiculously weird and crazy plot and sex-based jokes, then I will watch FLCL, thank you very much.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, FLCL is about two and a half hours long total...

[John Cribati]

Ummm, whats your problem with it?



The problem with that is?

That such treatment of a human being suggests that they are worth only what their genitalia and/or secondary sexual characteristics can provide. Which, generally speaking, is a bad way to treat someone.

[Tengu_temp]

Well, FLCL is about two and a half hours long total...

I'd rather watch FLCL 4 times in a row than all of KlK.

Also: if I wanted a fanservicey show about half-naked girls beating the crap out of monsters and each other, I'd rather watch Symphogear.

This show has fans?

Well, I suppose, but I figured they'd all be in /m/.

Actually, even /m/ doesn't like Kill la Kill in general. Because even if you don't care about the offensive content, the story, characters and action are simply bad.

[Sigh]

I tend to think she's having some a sort of reverse of Ryuko in that she can't "hear" or doesn't listen to Junketsu and its hampering her long term relationship thus manifesting by slowly draining her.

And its Junketsu that's being abused...

When you really think about it they're both kind of victims to each other, in a kind of dual-parasitic relationship as opposed to a much simpler and more beneficial symbiotic relationship like the one Ryuko and Senketsu have. Junketsu takes a lot more strain out of Satsuki, but at the same time Satsuki's will forces a lot more power out of Junketsu so as to utilize "his"(?) functionality in the ways she wants to, regardless of whether or not that's what Junketsu wants to do.

It's a destructive relationship on both sides and I hope they go into it in the next episode or two.

[Pie Guy]

Yeah, if this show didn't have Mako, I probably wouldn't have lasted four episodes.

That said, it's one of those shows that I enjoy but will never admit to anyone else who doesn't bring it up first.

[Dragonus45]

That such treatment of a human being suggests that they are worth only what their genitalia and/or secondary sexual characteristics can provide. Which, generally speaking, is a bad way to treat someone.

No it suggests that they are sexually attractive, and that sex sells.

1. Too much in-your-face fanservice. It's juvenile and unappealing.
2. Rape and sexual harassment are constantly presented as harmless and/or played for comedy.
3. Annoying rabid fanbase that claims this show is single-handedly saving anime from the wave of moe ****, and goes "oh boo hoo hoo, you hate this show because you're a tumblr social justice warrior/prude who can't tolerate fanservice" if you don't like it.
4. Ridiculous nudist message. The show thinks clothes are evil, or in other words: fanservice is good, non-fanservice is bad.
5. The animation is cheap and has no dynamic to it. The sole saving grace of this show could've been the fight scenes (look at this team's portfolio - they made some amazing fight scenes!), but that simply didn't happen.

Kill la Kill is probably the most sexist and offensive anime of this decade, and aside from some hentai, maybe even ever. It's the kind of thing that gives anime watchers a reputation for being sleazy, unwashed neckbeards who only think of girls as objects to fap to.
And if you leave all this objectionable content out, then you're just left with a cheap, badly written show that fails as a story, as a comedy, and as a spectacle.

If I want a goofball comedy with great action scenes, ridiculously weird and crazy plot and sex-based jokes, then I will watch FLCL, thank you very much.

1. Matter of opinion, personally i find it kinda funny, in the good way.
2. Its played for comedy, but most of the characters who do anything are portrayed as kinda skeevy and in the wrong. Plus whats so different between an anime that uses gratuitous violence against people as comedy and this.
3. Most every show has a rabid pain in the ass fanbase that isn't exactly new or something to single this show out for.
4. I'm not a nudist, but who cares if the show has a nudist message.
5. the fight scenes and the animation are BEAUTIFUL I just don't get where your problem with it is. Honestly its better written and more funny than you give it credit for you just seem to be looking over all its good points.

If it's purely about money they're doing something wrong. Being highly ecchi and sexual isn't generally a recipe for huge marketability and success. The most marketable anime out there is Sazae-san, followed by PreCure, Doraemon and Crayon Shin-Chan in some order. And of shows that are actually readily available to western nerds, the most successful and marketable over the last decade has been K-On, because it actually managed to be quite successful with people other than the late-night otaku crowd.

All the fanservice makes sure Kill la Kill will never, ever get a primetime showing or be something you'll show to people who aren't otaku. Not just that, it prevents it from even being the kind of otaku hit that shows like Madoka, Haruhi, Gundam or Evangelion have been, by not only alienating female otaku, both fujoshi and otherwise, but also people who are looking for something other than sex. Of course, having a virtually non-existent budget it might be a good financial idea because there aren't a lot of other visual approaches they can try to work with and none of the people involved have been known for their great skill at writing.

In any case, if an appealing character design to you has to be inherently sexual, does that mean that you've never seen a male character you thought looked cool?

Also, nudity being sexual is intrinsically tied to the nudity taboo and you cannot have one without the other. The options with nudity being sexual is that either you cover people up when you don't want things to be about sex, which is essentially what the nudity taboo is, or everything ends up being about sex, which would be rather impractical and distracting when talking about most things. At least I know that I'd rather not be reminded of sex when hearing about the outcome of Syrian peace negotiations or EU-US free trade agreements. There is also the very obvious fact that people tend to favor female nudity which would essentially mean that people would consider women to be inherently sexual, regardless of the context. That has quite a number of well-documented negative effects in terms of employment equality and similar.

And I'm expecting the show to be philosophical, alien and off-putting by saying that it is skeevy and sexist for insisting that women have to give a show and that it's innocent when men leer, make cat calls and masturbate over it? It seems to be a pretty mainstream demand. I certainly can't think of a whole lot of works outside of porn that doesn't operate on the assumptions that that isn't okay. If you mean my comments about how it could have done its commentary properly, well that just means they shouldn't have tried it, doesn't it? If you can't do something without being offensive then the answer is to not do it.

Oh, and Free! has shown that male nudity sells quite well, given its financial success. So does the success of BL which tends to get rather explicit, for that matter.

You kinda lost me at women otaku not being interested, I found the show because several of female friends who recommended it to me. Also could you perhaps not go you out of your way to imply that men being attracted to people is inherently damaging to them, its somewhat objectifying and offensive to me.
My other point is that the show also seems to be agnowledging the power and agency that women gain from sexuality and peoplesviewing them as such and i feel like that is setting more than a few people who are convinced that its the worst thing in the world ever off.

[Juhn]

There are standins for the sort of skeevy anime fan who views characters like Ryuko and Satsuki as nothing more than fapbait. These people are portrayed in-show as faceless, pathetic masses not worthy of recognition, and in the newer opening they are literally used as scenery to make Ryuko and Satsuki look even more impressive and to cement their status as the people actually worth giving a **** about. I'm not sure how they could be more blatant with the message here. "People who see you as a sex object are not worth your time. Go on, live your life, and accomplish great things regardless of what other people think."

How people watch this show and legitimately get the impression that the skeevy drooling masses are the people we should be empathizing with is beyond me.

I don't have any comment on the "Kill la Kill is saving anime" meme beyond that it is probably meant as a joke.

[Terraoblivion]

No it suggests that they are sexually attractive, and that sex sells.

But it's overwhelmingly female characters who get that treatment. Both in the show specifically and in general. The problems with that should be kinda blindingly obvious, but if they're not it suggests that women are somehow more sexual than men or somehow less worthy of having anything else interesting shown about them.

2. Its played for comedy, but most of the characters who do anything are portrayed as kinda skeevy and in the wrong. Plus whats so different between an anime that uses gratuitous violence against people as comedy and this.

When you hit people with a mallet or punch their teeth out you don't get people who say that it wasn't really assault or that you actually wanted it or that they had it coming for how they dressed. All of those things happen with rape, just look at cases such as Steubenville. That's the difference.

5. the fight scenes and the animation are BEAUTIFUL I just don't get where your problem with it is.

*Opens mouth, closes it again, looks confused* Yeah, I got nothing. Have you actually looked at the show? Half the time it's practically stop motion and a lot of the fights are done by having still poses with flashing backgrounds. That's cheap as all hell and barely even counts as animation. If it wasn't for all the fanservice, the show would look more or less like a low-budget kids' show from the 70s. The fights don't even have good pacing in cutting between the still images. Really, it's not hard to spot all the many, many, many shortcuts in even the scenes with the most budget and the utter cheapness of the rest. The still image on a flashing screen was something I noted and hated when cartoons did when I were 5, I haven't gotten less perceptive of it since.

Try comparing the animation in Kill la Kill to really fluid action like the Read or Die ova or a good episode of Cowboy Bebop. Or, for newer material, Kyoukai no Kanata or the fight scenes in Madoka. The latter also stylizes the hell out of the fights and makes them visual highlights in ways that Kill la Kill lacks both the budget and apparent cinematographic skill to approach.

There are standins for the sort of skeevy anime fan who views characters like Ryuko and Satsuki as nothing more than fapbait. These people are portrayed in-show as faceless, pathetic masses not worthy of recognition, and in the newer opening they are literally used as scenery to make Ryuko and Satsuki look even more impressive and to cement their status as the people actually worth giving a **** about. I'm not sure how they could be more blatant with the message here. "People who see you as a sex object are not worth your time. Go on, live your life, and accomplish great things regardless of what other people think."

Which is a horrible message. Most people, male or female, are not superheroes who could easily fend off a gang of them trying to them, just like it puts the burden of not being creeped out on the woman feeling creeped out, not the guy being creepy. For that matter, if this logic were to become ascendant it would mean an end to sexual harassment as a legal category and would make gendered discrimination a far harder case to make. It's a license for men to be as creepy as they feel like and it berates women for feeling uncomfortable about it. In short, it's victim blaming to a ridiculous degree, the onus of not creeping people out by leering and ****ing masturbating in public is on the people who might do so, not the person being creeped out. You also conveniently ignore that Ryuko's adopted family are among those leering, drooling masses, saying that we're not supposed to see them as people rings pretty hollow that way.

Really, the more people try to paint these things as benign, the more harmful, skeevy aspects of them become apparent. So, yes, I have to agree with Tengu, that the fanbase tries its damn hardest to prove all the negative stereotypes of the anime fandom and with the success of the show, it's hard not to agree.

[LaZodiac]

...holy crap I wasn't expecting so much hate for this series

[Kymme]

...holy crap I wasn't expecting so much hate for this series

It's only natural, really. But there is no need to get into a big argument over anything like this. Just live and let live, you know.

Spoiler: What I Mean

Show

[LaZodiac]

Just live and let live, you know.

Or kill and let kill

But yes, I understand, was just observing.

[Dragonus45]

But it's overwhelmingly female characters who get that treatment. Both in the show specifically and in general. The problems with that should be kinda blindingly obvious, but if they're not it suggests that women are somehow more sexual than men or somehow less worthy of having anything else interesting shown about them.

Or, it could just be that your ignoring all the cases of male fanservice ever. Like say in advertising, romance novels, and movies and in manga/anime heck just look at Thor's chest shots his movie in those delightfully low slung jeans, that is fanservice. Plus your discounting the idea that women aren't seen as more sexual than men but that men are seen as less significant. Also you still seem to be saying that seeing people as sexual is damaging.

When you hit people with a mallet or punch their teeth out you don't get people who say that it wasn't really assault or that you actually wanted it or that they had it coming for how they dressed. All of those things happen with rape, just look at cases such as Steubenville. That's the difference.

Or they don't, and I would love to argue that point with you but Stuebenville is most definitely politics and thus not allowed.

*Opens mouth, closes it again, looks confused* Yeah, I got nothing. Have you actually looked at the show? Half the time it's practically stop motion and a lot of the fights are done by having still poses with flashing backgrounds. That's cheap as all hell and barely even counts as animation. If it wasn't for all the fanservice, the show would look more or less like a low-budget kids' show from the 70s. The fights don't even have good pacing in cutting between the still images. Really, it's not hard to spot all the many, many, many shortcuts in even the scenes with the most budget and the utter cheapness of the rest. The still image on a flashing screen was something I noted and hated when cartoons did when I were 5, I haven't gotten less perceptive of it since.

Try comparing the animation in Kill la Kill to really fluid action like the Read or Die ova or a good episode of Cowboy Bebop. Or, for newer material, Kyoukai no Kanata or the fight scenes in Madoka. The latter also stylizes the hell out of the fights and makes them visual highlights in ways that Kill la Kill lacks both the budget and apparent cinematographic skill to approach.

I have a appreciation for the more old school style of anime and fight scenes and it reminds me of such, but that is just a matter of taste.

Which is a horrible message. Most people, male or female, are not superheroes who could easily fend off a gang of them trying to them, just like it puts the burden of not being creeped out on the woman feeling creeped out, not the guy being creepy. For that matter, if this logic were to become ascendant it would mean an end to sexual harassment as a legal category and would make gendered discrimination a far harder case to make. It's a license for men to be as creepy as they feel like and it berates women for feeling uncomfortable about it. In short, it's victim blaming to a ridiculous degree, the onus of not creeping people out by leering and ****ing masturbating in public is on the people who might do so, not the person being creeped out. You also conveniently ignore that Ryuko's adopted family are among those leering, drooling masses, saying that we're not supposed to see them as people rings pretty hollow that way.

I take offense at your example there, why is it a guys fault if he comes off a little weird, why are you blaming him for fumbling a social occasion? Why is that person creep ed out, there is so much more to a situation like that but you seem to be simplifying it to man is bad for creeping out woman. Too you his interest in her is harmful and that is offensive in and of itself. For your other example masturbating in public is illegal, and a person who does it is ruined for life and is literally publicly shamed by the society literally for the rest of his life, but clearly no one sees its a problem or bad.

Really, the more people try to paint these things as benign, the more harmful, skeevy aspects of them become apparent. So, yes, I have to agree with Tengu, that the fanbase tries its damn hardest to prove all the negative stereotypes of the anime fandom and with the success of the show, it's hard not to agree.

And more blanked statements shaming the people who do like the show because you disapprove of it and some of them have bothered to defend it.

[Terraoblivion]

It's only natural, really. But there is no need to get into a big argument over anything like this. Just live and let live, you know.

Spoiler: What I Mean

Show

That's easy to say when you're speaking from a position of privilege. If Kill la Kill had merely been the cheaply made, poorly written mess of a show it is without all the sexual skeeviness, it's exactly what I'd be doing. But it's not. It's saying that I have a moral obligation to just ignore when people make cat calls at me in the streets, leer at me, masturbate to my picture and whatever and that I have to, I dunno, hope none of those people happen to be in a position of authority over me. Kill la Kill is a show which has strong, explicitly anti-feminist and anti-woman messages and a fandom that revels in them and tries to spread the show and those messages.

In short, if the show was simply bad, then I'd ignore it, but the show is toxic as all hell and if the fandom gets its way in having it hugely successful and influential, the anime fandom as a whole will be a far, far worse place for women to be. Living and letting live in this case means acting in direct contradiction to both my own interests and the interests of a lot of other women. Beyond that, I'd prefer that a medium I enjoy quite a bit doesn't get too marked by skeevy **** aimed at all the worst stereotypes of nerds out there, both to avoid getting that stigma myself and to keep getting media I like. Hell, to keep some of the creators who don't do this bull**** employed.

[Devonix]

1. Too much in-your-face fanservice. It's juvenile and unappealing.
2. Rape and sexual harassment are constantly presented as harmless and/or played for comedy.
3. Annoying rabid fanbase that claims this show is single-handedly saving anime from the wave of moe ****, and goes "oh boo hoo hoo, you hate this show because you're a tumblr social justice warrior/prude who can't tolerate fanservice" if you don't like it.
4. Ridiculous nudist message. The show thinks clothes are evil, or in other words: fanservice is good, non-fanservice is bad.
5. The animation is cheap and has no dynamic to it. The sole saving grace of this show could've been the fight scenes (look at this team's portfolio - they made some amazing fight scenes!), but that simply didn't happen.

Kill la Kill is probably the most sexist and offensive anime of this decade, and aside from some hentai, maybe even ever. It's the kind of thing that gives anime watchers a reputation for being sleazy, unwashed neckbeards who only think of girls as objects to fap to.
And if you leave all this objectionable content out, then you're just left with a cheap, badly written show that fails as a story, as a comedy, and as a spectacle.

If I want a goofball comedy with great action scenes, ridiculously weird and crazy plot and sex-based jokes, then I will watch FLCL, thank you very much.

Sorry but I really see this as insulting. I have never found this show even very sexual. Hell the bath scene with Satsuki and her mom was one of the most uncomfortable and disturbing things I've seen animated. And we were supposed to feel that. It wasn't in any way presented as sexy when they could.

[Dragonus45]

That's easy to say when you're speaking from a position of privilege. If Kill la Kill had merely been the cheaply made, poorly written mess of a show it is without all the sexual skeeviness, it's exactly what I'd be doing. But it's not. It's saying that I have a moral obligation to just ignore when people make cat calls at me in the streets, leer at me, masturbate to my picture and whatever and that I have to, I dunno, hope none of those people happen to be in a position of authority over me. Kill la Kill is a show which has strong, explicitly anti-feminist and anti-woman messages and a fandom that revels in them and tries to spread the show and those messages.

In short, if the show was simply bad, then I'd ignore it, but the show is toxic as all hell and if the fandom gets its way in having it hugely successful and influential, the anime fandom as a whole will be a far, far worse place for women to be. Living and letting live in this case means acting in direct contradiction to both my own interests and the interests of a lot of other women. Beyond that, I'd prefer that a medium I enjoy quite a bit doesn't get too marked by skeevy **** aimed at all the worst stereotypes of nerds out there, both to avoid getting that stigma myself and to keep getting media I like. Hell, to keep some of the creators who don't do this bull**** employed.

How about this, instead of charging into a thread for a how you dont like and tossing around terms like privileged while shaming people because the show they like conflicts with your views on a few things you let the people who do like the show talk about it in peace. Also you seem to be confusing anti-feminist and anti-woman they aren't the same thing.

[Tengu_temp]

In short, if the show was simply bad, then I'd ignore it, but the show is toxic as all hell and if the fandom gets its way in having it hugely successful and influential, the anime fandom as a whole will be a far, far worse place for women to be.

Yeah, somehow I don't see that happening. This will remain a niche show, just like PS&G did.
(I never saw PS&G, but I suspect that while not brilliant, it's better than KlK.)

Sorry but I really see this as insulting. I have never found this show even very sexual. Hell the bath scene with Satsuki and her mom was one of the most uncomfortable and disturbing things I've seen animated. And we were supposed to feel that. It wasn't in any way presented as sexy when they could.

If you don't think thousands of sweaty otaku didn't touch themselves while watching that scene regardless, then you have more blind faith in humanity than I do.

How about this, instead of charging into a thread for a how you dont like and tossing around terms like privileged while shaming people because the show they like conflicts with your views on a few things you let the people who do like the show talk about it in peace. Also you seem to be confusing anti-feminist and anti-woman they aren't the same thing.

People are allowed not to like something and discuss about how they don't like it. Especially if it's something that offends them on a personal level. Deal with it.

And no, anti-feminist and anti-woman is the same thing. If you think differently it just shows you don't know what feminism means, probably because you let tumblr social justice warriors color your perception of the movement.
Feminism is a movement that wants women and men to be treated equally by society and law. Simple as that. The only way to be anti-feminist and not anti-women is if you want women to be treated better than men.

---

Disclaimer: in the end, I really don't care if people like Kill la Kill or not. People are allowed to like bad or problematic shows. I like a lot of bad or problematic shows. But, just because you like something, doesn't mean you should be all defensive about it and stay purposely blind to its faults.

[Dragonus45]

People are allowed not to like something and discuss about how they don't like it. Especially if it's something that offends them on a personal level. Deal with it.

And no, anti-feminist and anti-woman is the same thing. If you think differently it just shows you don't know what feminism means, probably because you let tumblr social justice warriors color your perception of the movement.
Feminism is a movement that wants women and men to be treated equally by society and law. Simple as that.
\

People are allowed to talk about things they don't like, but they aren't allowed to shame people for liking it because they see the show itself as a social issue. Its insulting to the people who like the show, and i will deal with it, by doing what I'm doing now defending the show.

[Terraoblivion]

How about this, instead of charging into a thread for a how you dont like and tossing around terms like privileged while shaming people because the show they like conflicts with your views on a few things you let the people who do like the show talk about it in peace. Also you seem to be confusing anti-feminist and anti-woman they aren't the same thing.

No, they pretty much are to anybody who actually knows why feminism is and what feminist is. Because all feminist ultimately means is seeing gender equality as a good thing and worth striving for. So anybody who wants to see women have equal opportunities with men are supporting feminist goals, ideals and the core of the ideology, even if they don't really know what feminism is. And if you support equality between genders, you'd see letting women get sexually harassed for being female as being anti-women. So I'm forced to assume you either don't know what feminism is or openly ascribe to an ideology such as complementarianism or ancient Greek subjugation of women to reach that statement.

Also, quite frankly, given how often people feel a moral right to call me a pedophiliac for liking K-On, an almost entirely chaste show about teenagers, or just generally try to browbeat people into compliance over pure matters of taste, I find the idea that politeness means not pointing out genuinely toxic matters hilarious.

For your previous post...Men matters less? I presume that's why roughly 80% of all people who appear on screen in Hollywood movies, from the leads to the random extras in the street, are men and why men overwhelmingly dominate all leadership positions in essentially all major political, economical, scientific and cultural institutions in the world. I can see how those facts coincide with mattering less. As for male fanservice...If it was that endemic, you'd think the internet wouldn't lose its **** when Free! was released, given how it's far tamer than a whole host of male-oriented fanservice shows. And by a whole host, I mean more or less every single one ever.

Also, I love how you can say nobody ever says women have rape coming based on what they wear and where they go a week after this became a major scandal in India. It was big enough that the story got all the way to mainstream Danish news. Also, I'd love to hear how you'd explain Steubenville without any victim blaming or attempts at explaining the rape away. Given, you know, that the kids, their friends and most of the town seemed to think it wasn't rape.

And, yes, if you leer at people or make cat calls, then it is your fault. Learning to show basic respect for people regardless of gender is generally considered a part of properly growing up. And in general, people staring at you is considered both creepy and disrespectful.

[Sigh]

What I've seen from people that don't like KLK so far in this thread: Sweeping generalizations about other people they don't know, insults aimed at the people that do like the show (regardless of whether or not they're in this thread or not), and many many claims that the show perpetrates harmful stereotypes with either no concrete examples to back it up or by using examples that only have half-true information in them.

What I've seen from people in this thread that do like KLK: Specific responses to the people they're talking to, without bringing anyone they don't know into the conflict, specific retorts to pretty much every issue raised with the show thus far, and use of actual examples from the show to highlight their points, without taking things out of context or minimizing the themes that the show itself clearly spells out for the audience.

On an unrelated note, I find it hilarious that (from what I've seen thus far both here and elsewhere) the people who focus the most on the BOOBS aspect of KLK are the people who don't want it to be there.

[Tengu_temp]

I saw both sweeping generalizations and specific responses from both sides. Although only one of them did a lot of knee-jerk defensiveness. Can you guess which one?

People are allowed to talk about things they don't like, but they aren't allowed to shame people for liking it because they see the show itself as a social issue. Its insulting to the people who like the show, and i will deal with it, by doing what I'm doing now defending the show. I let the people who started pulling fire alarms up in Canada, or the people who taught my womens studies class color my opinion of feminism.

If you feel offended by people saying a show you like sucks, that means you're too attached to it. It's not healthy.

[Terraoblivion]

What I've seen from people that don't like KLK so far in this thread: Sweeping generalizations about other people they don't know, insults aimed at the people that do like the show (regardless of whether or not they're in this thread or not), and many many claims that the show perpetrates harmful stereotypes with either no concrete examples to back it up or by using examples that only have half-true information in them.

What I've seen from people in this thread that do like KLK: Specific responses to the people they're talking to, without bringing anyone they don't know into the conflict, specific retorts to pretty much every issue raised with the show thus far, and use of actual examples from the show to highlight their points, without taking things out of context or minimizing the themes that the show itself clearly spells out for the audience.

On an unrelated note, I find it hilarious that (from what I've seen thus far both here and elsewhere) the people who focus the most on the BOOBS aspect of KLK are the people who don't want it to be there.

So the rape isn't an actual example? Or the show flat out saying that people peeping on you in the shower is just a sign of affection and you shouldn't feel uncomfortable about it? Or the random kids in the beginning being portrayed as harmless scamps when they're discussing molesting Ryuko? Or the guys jacking off in the background in episode two? Or how individual shots are framed for maximum tits and ass? I could go on. But maybe those are all half-truths because they don't fit with your interpretation and as such don't need to be addressed.

Also, I'm calling the people who defend the show creepy because the defenses they mount creepy. Act creepy and people will expect you to be creepy. And saying that getting leered at, having people try to sneak shots at you and kids considering molesting you is just background noise women shouldn't mind is creepy. So is saying that what happened in episode 16 wasn't rape, which has been the dominant interpretation wherever I've looked, or that female bodies are inherently sexual and so there is nothing wrong with portraying them as such to a naked degree.

There are people who like this show who aren't creepy, a lot of the people in the anime thread on rpg.net for example, but a lot of the fandom is openly saying creepy things and that makes them creepy. It's that simple. Just don't say creepy things and you won't be called a creep.

[Dragonus45]

No, they pretty much are to anybody who actually knows why feminism is and what feminist is. Because all feminist ultimately means is seeing gender equality as a good thing and worth striving for. So anybody who wants to see women have equal opportunities with men are supporting feminist goals, ideals and the core of the ideology, even if they don't really know what feminism is. And if you support equality between genders, you'd see letting women get sexually harassed for being female as being anti-women. So I'm forced to assume you either don't know what feminism is or openly ascribe to an ideology such as complementarianism or ancient Greek subjugation of women to reach that statement.

Also, quite frankly, given how often people feel a moral right to call me a pedophiliac for liking K-On, an almost entirely chaste show about teenagers, or just generally try to browbeat people into compliance over pure matters of taste, I find the idea that politeness means not pointing out genuinely toxic matters hilarious.

For your previous post...Men matters less? I presume that's why roughly 80% of all people who appear on screen in Hollywood movies, from the leads to the random extras in the street, are men and why men overwhelmingly dominate all leadership positions in essentially all major political, economical, scientific and cultural institutions in the world. I can see how those facts coincide with mattering less. As for male fanservice...If it was that endemic, you'd think the internet wouldn't lose its **** when Free! was released, given how it's far tamer than a whole host of male-oriented fanservice shows. And by a whole host, I mean more or less every single one ever.

Also, I love how you can say nobody ever says women have rape coming based on what they wear and where they go a week after this became a major scandal in India. It was big enough that the story got all the way to mainstream Danish news. Also, I'd love to hear how you'd explain Steubenville without any victim blaming or attempts at explaining the rape away. Given, you know, that the kids, their friends and most of the town seemed to think it wasn't rape.

And, yes, if you leer at people or make cat calls, then it is your fault. Learning to show basic respect for people regardless of gender is generally considered a part of properly growing up. And in general, people staring at you is considered both creepy and disrespectful.

I find it funny that you see that because you see it as "Toxic" you have the right to do what bothers you when people get onto you, and you know i had a much much longer post here but then I realized that this argument will never end, you clearly are viewing this through the lens of "The Patriarchy" and as long as you do this conversation will never go anywhere. One last note on the catcalls thing, you still seem to be implying that male sexuality is inherently bad an hurtful which is both insulting and objectifying.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yeah, um, if you want to watch a show with fanservice, that's fine. I for one like fanservice. But this show turns "sexual themes" all the way up to maximum obviousness and lewdness and then doesn't think of realistic consequences, instead handwaving it with some explanation of how the hero will lose her power if she doesn't just accept it. That isn't parody, that isn't deconstruction. That's just a stupid pastiche.

[Terraoblivion]

I find it funny that you see that because you see it as "Toxic" you have the right to do what bothers you when people get onto you, and you know i had a much much longer post here but then I realized that this argument will never end, you clearly are viewing this through the lens of "Da Patriarchy" and as long as you do this conversation will never go anywhere. One last note on the catcalls thing, you still seem to be implying that male sexuality is inherently bad an hurtful which is both insulting and objectifying.

No, I'm implying that unwanted expressions of male sexuality are inherently bad. Just like unwanted expressions of female, queer and androgynous sexuality. Basically, don't leer at people or make cat calls, no matter your gender or that of the target. It just happens to mostly be men doing it to women. So unless you're going to claim that being sexually suggestive towards women without any kind of prior invitation or consent is an inherent part of male sexuality, I haven't said anything about male sexuality being bad. I prefer thinking that men are capable of more self-control than that and that they have just as diverse and complex sexuality as women. But if you want to insult your own gender by implying you're all lust zombies with self-control issues, that's your business, I guess.

[Mewtarthio]

I have to agree. Watching Kill la Kill doesn't make you a bad person, but acting like it's empowering to women is frankly absurd. It's... not. At all.

Yeah, somehow I don't see that happening. This will remain a niche show, just like PS&G did.
(I never saw PS&G, but I suspect that while not brilliant, it's better than KlK.)

Panty Stocking was really fanservicey (of course), but I'd say KlK is way worse. The Anarchy sisters are constantly sexualized because that's how they want to be seen. Ryuko is sexualized despite how she wants to be seen.

[Soras Teva Gee]

If it's purely about money they're doing something wrong.

Ahh good thing that's not the case. I'm glad to see your agreement with my points there then.

All the fanservice makes sure Kill la Kill will never, ever get a primetime showing or be something you'll show to people who aren't otaku.

And that would be averted while still having naked or nearly naked people. Pardon me but since I characterize this issue as always a kneejerk first, rationalize second situation I don't particularly think nuance is exactly going to be communicated.

(Though given One Piece is no stranger to fanservice and rauchy jokes, Japan clearly has some tolerance... course for anime its at low end of the spectrum so might just be my American talking...)

In any case, if an appealing character design to you has to be inherently sexual, does that mean that you've never seen a male character you thought looked cool?

Wait I don't find the cool guy designs sexual? I mean cripes just because I'm hetero-normative doesn't mean I don't recognize a phallic symbol when I see one. And most of them do have some nice chests.

Though on average while they do go topless more the outfits do show less skin. For that and the whole hetero-male thing I tend to not like looking at them as much.

Actually my fave designs (and series) of the moment is Magi Labyrinth of Magic which about equally revealing for men and women but has more pretty pretty men then women in the story. There's probably an obvious explanation for that....

Though it does all make me think I should work out more.

There is also the very obvious fact that people tend to favor female nudity which would essentially mean that people would consider women to be inherently sexual, regardless of the context. That has quite a number of well-documented negative effects in terms of employment equality and similar.

Sexulaity in men has placed less emphasis on appearence (though I can't recall a non-handsome prince/knight/etc) and more on other areas where men are expect to go out and physically perform. Which they are more capable at on the whole, and more expendable for that matter, which is a matter of biology.

Seeing as post-industrial era technology is rendering this effectively irrelevant for a great many fields my expectation this will fade and we will see appearance rise in importance for men as the proverbial breadwinning is ceasing to be a gendered role thus be less of a way to distinguish yourself.

Oh, and Free! has shown that male nudity sells quite well, given its financial success. So does the success of BL which tends to get rather explicit, for that matter.

Yes one of the signs I've noted in recent years. What's the level of success? Hottest new show would have been Attack on Titan after all, how does Free! compare?

Doing well is alright, but doesn't change the general shape of things on the whole. You need either some kind of watershed moment of overwhelming success and/or a string of strong successes to actually change the status quo.

Things are changing but seems to be a slow tide rather then a sudden flood.

[Tengu_temp]

One last note on the catcalls thing, you still seem to be implying that male sexuality is inherently bad an hurtful which is both insulting and objectifying.

Dude, your implication that you can't be a very sexually active guy without being a catcalling objectifying prick is rather worrying.