Relationship Woes and Advice 25: Now with extra Valentine

[Jon_Dahl]

All right. I deleted it then. Let's move on, please :)

[Aedilred]

You REALLY need to stop the stereotyping and generalizations. I'm starting to kinda think the problem in these failed relationships may be more on your side than is evident in what you're telling us.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that.

I tell you as a woman who has successfully wooed women in the past
You are so wrong it's almost comical

Indeed. To be fair, point (1) isn't entirely wide of the mark, although really that's the sort of thing people should be doing anyway because it's good for them which also incidentally happens to be a good way to meet new people who could conceivably become partners, rather than something to do entirely in hope of scoring a partner.

[Knaight]

That's fine, but I have always told you to the complete and naked truth to the best of my ability. You can think what you want, it's a free world, but it can't be said that I twist the truth or hide something.

Lying and laughably wrong are two different things.

[Jon_Dahl]

You're all right, I was wrong. Can we please drop this?

[Jon_Dahl]

Since I deleted the original post, I would kindly ask you not to quote it anymore, please. How about some woes then?

[LuckyStrike]

Since I deleted the original post, I would kindly ask you not to quote it anymore, please. How about some woes then?

Sorry i missed that. Consider it removed.

Anyway, woes. Anyone here have some do's and dont's about dating someone with a kid? I wouldn't call it a 'woe' but I am very afraid to get this wrong. He is two years old and we have been seeing each other for almost a year. Thats a big part of his life. She is more alright with me taking on a parenting role than I am it seems. Its like she welcomes the support, but I'm really scared to be too tough, or too soft.
In any case its an incentive to learn the language here better because not being able to explain to him why I do certain things, or why certain things he does are wrong... its not helping.
I feel the bond is good, hes happy to see me and sad to see me go, but he definitely doesn't accept me as 'authority' when she is there. And I don't want to force that, but at times.. you just cant have him digging through the fridge like a monkey tossing everything on the floor that isn't his favorite strawberry yogurt. Asking for more support and backup hasn't resulted in anything substantial. I think she doesn't see the potential problems like I do. Or is it a thing with kids who are two and a half? I read as much as I can about it online, but any input here would be greatly appreciated.

[Coidzor]

...Two year olds shouldn't be able to open the fridge, much less expect to open it themselves and not face punishment.

What does she want you to do when the tot misbehaves while she's in the other room and you're watching him? Have you discussed that with her?

[Lissou]

I think you probably need to have a discussion with her about it. See what she would be comfortable with, what you would be comfortable with, and focus on the overlap. I think if I dated someone with a young kid I would want to be involved, but only as much as the parent was fine with. Although if they didn't want me to be involved at all, the relationship might not last too much. Raising a kid is an important part of someone's life and if they shut you out of it, it's a whole part of their life that's closed to you. I don't think I would like that.

Anyway, this is one of those case by case thing. We can't tell you what is and isn't fine. I have to say though that nobody is trained to be a parent. People just learn, and sometimes you will just feel completely lost and like you have no clue what you're doing. There is no reason to believe you would feel that much different if you happened to be the father. So give yourself some slack and just try your best and be open to her comments and criticism, and try and make it easier for her so she can see you support her, since she seem to be fine with you playing a bigger role.

[Aedilred]

From what I understand, two-year-olds (and two-year-olds in particular) are notorious terrors, because they are physically capable enough to have agency but are largely incapable of reason, responding to discipline or understanding the majority of language (including "no"). Managing them therefore becomes a complete nightmare, since while a young child shouldn't expect to be able to trash the fridge without consequences, two-year-olds won't understand that so it becomes irrelevant. Still, you need to make the effort to teach them no matter how unrewarding in the short term, since otherwise they won't learn.

Although apparently I was an angelic two-year-old (albeit an awful baby).

I've never dated anyone with children so I'm off the map a bit here but (again) I gather it is often a bit of a minefield since you have to build a relationship with the child without stepping into loco parentis (at least initially) which can be hard in that context and is presumably even harder if you establish a non-parental relationship and then end up as stepfather and have to take on a parental role. As Lissou says it's probably something you need to discuss with her.

[Crow]

I'm uncomfortable even disciplining my girlfriend's dog.

I guess you will probably need to just talk to your girlfriend and explain that if you guys are going to have a long future together, you are going to need to be a father to some degree. This means having the ability to discipline the child at your discretion (within acceptable bounds of course!).

[Aedilred]

I'm uncomfortable even disciplining my girlfriend's dog.

In the pop-anthropology book Watching the English (worth reading if anyone wants to get a handle on the English psyche) it was noted that making negative comments (etc.) about someone's children was a no-no, but making negative comments about someone's pet was practically a capital offence.

It is pretty much true. At least in England.

[Crow]

I think she doesn't see the potential problems like I do.

This is a very prominent thing these days. I've noticed a tendency lately in young parents in particular, to overlook behaviors that really ought to be dealt with when they arise. I find it perplexing. I think a good way to gauge behavior is to ask her "What would you think if it was a stranger's kid doing this in your fridge? Or even if it was the child of a friend or aquaintance?"

Story time: One of my friend's wives posted a picture of her kid lounging in a chair at a restaurant with his dirty, grungy sneakers kicked up on the table. If had been any other kid she would have been talking about how bad that kid was and how could their parents ever let him do that. Another friend-wife couldn't see any reason why it wasn't ok to let her two year old climb on and stand on the coffee table, because she didn't want to "stifle him" or "be a negative force in his life". Then one day she texted me and told me her kid had broken his arm. How? Fell off the coffee table. I was secretly happy, because I am a horrible person. Some of our friends came over for dinner one time, and while I was outside running the grill the dad allowed his three year old to *disassemble* one of the chairs in our dining room. I came in and found a nut on the floor, so I wondered aloud "What is this from?". The kid's dad just responded "It's from the chair, [child's name] was taking it apart." We don't invite them or their multiple hellspawn over any more.

[LuckyStrike]

...Two year olds shouldn't be able to open the fridge, much less expect to open it themselves and not face punishment.

I know right?

What does she want you to do when the tot misbehaves while she's in the other room and you're watching him? Have you discussed that with her?

Thats the thing, she wants me to step in. Which I do.. but when shes home, even in another room, he doesnt accept it. He will stoically disregard me, or scream. Or both sometimes which is kind of a special feat all in itself when you think about it. When I pick him up like when hes climbing on the counter he will wyrm his way out, all the while screaming for mom. None of this when shes not there, or taking a shower by the way. He is much more receptive of my 'calm and collected but very stern NO.' Which I didnt think I had in me, but what do you know.. :D

I think you probably need to have a discussion with her about it. See what she would be comfortable with, what you would be comfortable with, and focus on the overlap. I think if I dated someone with a young kid I would want to be involved, but only as much as the parent was fine with. Although if they didn't want me to be involved at all, the relationship might not last too much. Raising a kid is an important part of someone's life and if they shut you out of it, it's a whole part of their life that's closed to you. I don't think I would like that.

Yeah we talked about it a lot, especially in the beginning. I made very clear I felt that it is her kid, her rules. But, I also made it very clear that I wanted at least to be able to have an opinion and have it heard or I would likely go insane. Like you say, its what made the relationship possible to start with.

Anyway, this is one of those case by case thing. We can't tell you what is and isn't fine. I have to say though that nobody is trained to be a parent. People just learn, and sometimes you will just feel completely lost and like you have no clue what you're doing. There is no reason to believe you would feel that much different if you happened to be the father. So give yourself some slack and just try your best and be open to her comments and criticism, and try and make it easier for her so she can see you support her, since she seem to be fine with you playing a bigger role.

Thanks that helps somehow, really does.

From what I understand, two-year-olds (and two-year-olds in particular) are notorious terrors, because they are physically capable enough to have agency but are largely incapable of reason, responding to discipline or understanding the majority of language (including "no"). Managing them therefore becomes a complete nightmare, since while a young child shouldn't expect to be able to trash the fridge without consequences, two-year-olds won't understand that so it becomes irrelevant. Still, you need to make the effort to teach them no matter how unrewarding in the short term, since otherwise they won't learn.

Very true, I did however just fix a child safety lock to the bloody fridge ;) Might as well make their agency as small as possible.

Although apparently I was an angelic two-year-old (albeit an awful baby).

I've never dated anyone with children so I'm off the map a bit here but (again) I gather it is often a bit of a minefield since you have to build a relationship with the child without stepping into loco parentis (at least initially) which can be hard in that context and is presumably even harder if you establish a non-parental relationship and then end up as stepfather and have to take on a parental role. As Lissou says it's probably something you need to discuss with her.

See now this, is what I think is what im scared of. If all of us end up living together.. well.. your right, we need to have talked it through some more.

Heh, how is an awful baby even possible?

I'm uncomfortable even disciplining my girlfriend's dog.

I guess you will probably need to just talk to your girlfriend and explain that if you guys are going to have a long future together, you are going to need to be a father to some degree. This means having the ability to discipline the child at your discretion (within acceptable bounds of course!).

But I have the ability, she trusts me to do it. The fact that he doesn't respond to it, when she is there.. I think she doesn't see as a problem because well, shes there.
How do I be 'Like a dad' without being some kind of wannabe failure? (When I put it like this I kind of see why she doesn't have an answer either..)

This is a very prominent thing these days. I've noticed a tendency lately in young parents in particular, to overlook behaviors that really ought to be dealt with when they arise. I find it perplexing. I think a good way to gauge behavior is to ask her "What would you think if it was a stranger's kid doing this in your fridge? Or even if it was the child of a friend or aquaintance?"

Thats great, Im totally going to use that sometime

Story time: One of my friend's wives posted a picture of her kid lounging in a chair at a restaurant with his dirty, grungy sneakers kicked up on the table. If had been any other kid she would have been talking about how bad that kid was and how could their parents ever let him do that. Another friend-wife couldn't see any reason why it wasn't ok to let her two year old climb on and stand on the coffee table, because she didn't want to "stifle him" or "be a negative force in his life". Then one day she texted me and told me her kid had broken his arm. How? Fell off the coffee table. I was secretly happy, because I am a horrible person. Some of our friends came over for dinner one time, and while I was outside running the grill the dad allowed his three year old to *disassemble* one of the chairs in our dining room. I came in and found a nut on the floor, so I wondered aloud "What is this from?". The kid's dad just responded "It's from the chair, [child's name] was taking it apart." We don't invite them or their multiple hellspawn over any more.

Heh so much! I agree, too often parents are scared of disciplining in public. Lets not make a scene here.. All the while not realizing not disciplining makes a much nastier 'scene'. Seriously, anyone ever uncomfortable when a kid gets disciplined in public? Most of the time I think, you go you.. that's an awesome parent. (By disciplining I mean saying no and sticking to it. No matter what).

Well thanks guys, much appreciated. Loads to think about. I'm going to write some things down and talk it over with her. Never imagined just writing stuff down could clarify things, or at least give a change of perspective. Probably be back for more too

[LuckyStrike]

Also Crow, theres a bloodbowl manager cup? How? When? Where?

[Aedilred]

Also Crow, theres a bloodbowl manager cup? How? When? Where?

It's been going for more than two years! The text in his sig is a link to the latest thread, if the colour wasn't a giveaway, although we're between seasons at the moment.

[dehro]

Thats the thing, she wants me to step in. Which I do.. but when shes home, even in another room, he doesnt accept it. He will stoically disregard me, or scream. Or both sometimes which is kind of a special feat all in itself when you think about it. When I pick him up like when hes climbing on the counter he will wyrm his way out, all the while screaming for mom. None of this when shes not there, or taking a shower by the way. He is much more receptive of my 'calm and collected but very stern NO.' Which I didnt think I had in me, but what do you know.. :D
[…]
But I have the ability, she trusts me to do it. The fact that he doesn't respond to it, when she is there.. I think she doesn't see as a problem because well, shes there.
How do I be 'Like a dad' without being some kind of wannabe failure? (When I put it like this I kind of see why she doesn't have an answer either..)

It's perfectly normal for the kid to have an inbuilt authority ranking system and to try to work said system; especially at two which is when they start questioning that authority to see how far they can get away with doing so. We all did this in some measure when daddy denied us ice-cream "...but mommy said I can have it".
That she doesn't see it as a problem is because she's been there from day one and will be even should you, one day, not be... And the kid seems to know this already. You should be happy that he is responsive to your authority at all, as demonstrated when the higher authority figure isn't around. It means he has accepted you as one and is just being a kid. Tackling the issue of your diminished status when the bigger cat is around is something you can do with her help and by sticking with it in a consistent manner. Sometimes a little "do as he says/listen to him" from her part may be all it takes. Over time the difference of status will diminish naturally and finally vanish (depending also on the, to me, unknown quantity represented by the biological father and his eventual/potential role in the kid's life, should there be such a thing... But that's a conversation for you to have another day, when this becomes a thing)

[Knaight]

Heh so much! I agree, too often parents are scared of disciplining in public. Lets not make a scene here.. All the while not realizing not disciplining makes a much nastier 'scene'. Seriously, anyone ever uncomfortable when a kid gets disciplined in public? Most of the time I think, you go you.. that's an awesome parent. (By disciplining I mean saying no and sticking to it. No matter what).

By that definition of disciplining, not so much, though sometimes it's still obvious that preparation could have helped here (yes, the kid is bored because they're in an immobile cart while you look at wine for ten minutes. Bringing a toy could have curtailed that). On the other hand, I've seen plenty of "disciplining" that consists of either yelling angrily at the kid or smacking them, and at that point there are certainly no "awesome parent" reactions on my end.

[Lissou]

*smacks Lissou on the head* Go figure out a time to talk to him, about both the husband thing and the polyamory thing. I don't have any specific advice on doing that, just another voice saying you should.

So right after you posted I decided to go talk with him as he was almost off work and I figured I'd have time to talk with him a bit. He turned out to be busy, so I walked around and then he was gone. I kinda caught him but he was off the door and I only had time to say bye. I felt pretty down about that.

I sent him a couple of Skype messages (one yesterday that was just "hey" and one this morning about a funny thing that happened at work since he wasn't working today) and didn't get any response. I haven't actually added him because I figured I'd confirm it was him first (I thought just adding him would be kind of weird, I wanted to talk first). Now I'm wondering if it's possible to set your settings so that you don't see messages sent by people you don't know, or don't get notifications or something?

Either way, I'm not going to send him more messages at this point, and I'll probably ask him this weekend when I see him but I was curious.

I talked to a close friend (we considered dating at some point but it turned out we had different expectations so we didn't) and he said I should just hang out with him more. I mentioned that he lives in another town so on his days off, he's not around, but my friend said I should just make plans in his town then.

That feels a bit... I don't know, it's only an hour a way and I'd be 100% fine visiting him if we had a relationship of some sort outside of work (be it friendship or romantic or whatever) but just going there like this seems pretty weird to me. I don't want to harass the guy. I'm already feeling way too forceful having sent 2 different messages without waiting for an answer.

[FinnLassie]

Lissou, about the Skype, I didn't know there would be a way to message anyone without having added them as contacts. So, to answer your question, he probably hasn't gotten a single message from you. I'd go with that assumption.

[Lissou]

Ah, thanks. I'm pretty sure I've exchanged messages with people not on my contact list before, but it's been a while. I'll talk with him when I see him to make sure I have the right account (I'm fairly sure this one is him but it could be an old account I guess) then I'll add him.

Thanks :)

[FinnLassie]

Yeah, now that you say it, I think it was a feature yeeears back, because I used to get so much spam like back in 2008 (oh wow I've had skype for 6 years). Definitely ask about the skype.

[Teddy]

Lissou, about the Skype, I didn't know there would be a way to message anyone without having added them as contacts. So, to answer your question, he probably hasn't gotten a single message from you. I'd go with that assumption.

You can enable others to send you messages from people not on your contact list under the Integrity Settings, but it's off by default.

[Xapi]

It's been a while since I've last been active on these forums, but I have a situation that requires... well, it mostly requires me to vent, but I'll take advice if you guys want to give it.

Spoiler: Context about my relationship with my wife

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I've been together with my wife for about 12 years now (since we first started dating). For reference, we've been living together for 6, and we have a 9 month old son.

A topic that has come up throughout our relationship is the need that we each have or had, in different times, to feel attractive to the opposite sex. This feeling was strong enough in both of us to become a reason for us to seriously discuss and even unsuccesfully attempt the swinger lifestyle.

Spoiler: How I met someone else and what happened

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I am/was part of a student political organization that I founded some 10 years ago, and about 6 or 5 years ago, we were heading the "student's guild", and had a pretty good chance to win an election to be a big part of the University's (*) governing body (Spoiler: we did win).

At that time, a women in her early thirties (I was 24/25) was in charge of managing the University's budget. We had a good working relationship with her, we were able to get her to approve us budget for some proyects and we were discussing a future change in the direction the University would go depending on the results of the upcoming elections.

But, what you care about here, is that, for the first time since meeting my wife, and third time in my life, I could tell that this woman was absolutely into me. The way she looked at me, laughed about my bad jokes and found every word I said to be absolutely brilliant (Spoiler again: they weren't). This was noticed by some of my partners as well. For the record, she was an attractive woman, although not "guys turning around to check her out" attractive, and very nice and intelligent too. I however, wouldn't say I developed feelings for her.

This was the extent of our relationship. Although our student 'party' won the election, the graduates and faculty 'parties' she supported lost, and she was removed from her position for being in the loosing side of an internal struggle.

Spoiler: What happens now

Show

Cue to 5 years later, last Sunday we were talking about stuff with a friend from that time, and I commented something about "When we went to talk to [V]". That night, my wife, whose jealousy knowns no bounds, asked "Is that [V] the woman you used to like?". I said "No" and called it a night, went to sleep.

The next day she kept asking me about it, until I finally told her, that No, I did not like her, but she was into me, and that made me feel good. I remainded her of other times when she's done much more questionable things because she needed to feel "wanted", we had a little back and forth and the discussion was over. However, since then she's been acting grumpy around me, I've asked her several times what was going on, she first started saying "nothing" but hte last time she said the dreaded "you know what's going on"...

I know she's upset about this stuff, but I don't understand why. She has trust issues but we've been working through them and thing were a bit better the last several months.

(*) When I say University, I actually mean "School", as in, the Engineering School, one of the divisions of the University, but School might lead to confusion about ages and such.

[Chen]

So wait are you still in contact with this other woman? Or were you just talking about her in the past?

[dehro]

The conclusive argument that she should accept seems, to me, that this is relatively ancient history, the woman was into you and you not into her enough to do something about it and, most importantly, NOTHING HAPPENED. If anything, your wife's attitude shows that you probably weren't meant for the swingers lifestyle... Or simply aren't in the right place to try that.
You hint at past situations where she might have overstepped certain boundaries... It seems that you both might need an open, as in non confrontational, conversation about any lingering feelings left over from past experiences, and maybe come to set or reinforce a few groundrules... Or at least accept that there are a few things that happened that you're both not happy with (whether they sentiment is rational or not) and find ways to get over those things.
Whatever it is that she's brooding on or whatever the sentiment is that has led you to write here, I would suggest that venting is good but otherwise not tackling the issue might set a precedent or, more simply, lay the foundation for future confrontations. You have identified an issue, take advantage of that fact by solving it together... Or maybe you can both agree that you were making a fleeting moment of insecurity into something bigger and brush it off... But you'll know which is the case only by talking things through.

[Knaight]

So wait are you still in contact with this other woman? Or were you just talking about her in the past?

It looks like it was entirely in the past. With that said: Does it matter? Being married doesn't mean that you have to not have friends among the 50% of the population that shares a gender with the person you're married to, and if they ask for that it's a titanic red flag.

[Chen]

It looks like it was entirely in the past. With that said: Does it matter? Being married doesn't mean that you have to not have friends among the 50% of the population that shares a gender with the person you're married to, and if they ask for that it's a titanic red flag.

They mentioned trust issues in the relationship. Clearly whether the interaction with this other woman was solely in the past, or whether they were still going on makes a difference here. There's also a difference between simply being friends with someone and being friends with someone who has a thing for you. It may be perfectly reasonable to still stay in contact with someone in either case, but how you and your spouse deal with each situation will likely be quite different, especially if there are issues in this regards in the past (on either side).

[Knaight]

They mentioned trust issues in the relationship. Clearly whether the interaction with this other woman was solely in the past, or whether they were still going on makes a difference here. There's also a difference between simply being friends with someone and being friends with someone who has a thing for you. It may be perfectly reasonable to still stay in contact with someone in either case, but how you and your spouse deal with each situation will likely be quite different, especially if there are issues in this regards in the past (on either side).

It is perfectly reasonable to stay in contact with someone in either case, and a spouse has two options here.
1) Don't flip out about it and act like a reasonable person.
2) Suck it up and deal.

There are a lot of entirely reasonable compromises that can be asked in a relationship, cutting ties with half of your friends (thereabouts, for some people it's lower, for some people it's higher) is not one of them.

[Xapi]

Absolutely no contact with [V] since shortly after she was laid off.

[Lissou]

I talked to him. He didn't get my message and went to check but still couldn't see them. He also said he mostly uses Hangouts anyways so I gave him my email. Nothing since but he's still going to be at work for a few hours so we'll see what comes out of it in the end.

I wanted to ask him to hang out tomorrow but chickened out >.> I told myself I could just talk to him about that in IMs but he might not add me for a few days. Oh well, I made a move, I should probably just give it time.

Sean things giving my email was probably coming on too strong, but I'm a bit surprised because he also thinks I should have asked him to hang out tomorrow, which I see as stronger and bolder than giving him my email. You mileage may vary I guess.