Will Save World For Gold. (Thread Mark III)

[Metahuman1]

He point blank tells Ardon that "There is no such thing as a Dungeon Inspector. OR a Dungeon Critic. There are only dungeon masters and the fools that intrude on there domains." Emphasis mine.

You will also note on the same page Ardon's Horror at discovering that the Dungeon's he's been handling aren't up to Code and that in fact the mortal plain really DOESN'T have dungeon inspectors, which strongly suggests such is normal in the Fey Wild. Were the fey are shown to have a better grasp on the mechanics governing the universe and be quite modern by our standers, and seem very inclined to be sticklers for things like appropriate CR encounters, appropriate numbers of encounters, appropriate rewards and loot drops, ext. It's by no means a major extrapolation to mean that they were following the rules specifically laid out that the system relies on for things like XP, Treasure, task DC's and Encounter CR's and frequency's and the like. That this may very well have had more then it's fair share of contribution offered to continually screwing the party's advancement over.


Like a DM who's in a 1E or 2E Mindset and has totally failed to evolve with the system he's now running in style, and runs a 4E D&D game in the mind set and style of a 1E or 2E game, even though the systems have nothing in common save a name and doing so is gonna screw the PC's over horribly, because 4E was not designed to allow it, ever, it was designed to operate very much as Ardon runs it, very straight forward by-the-book tactics and math and the like. And that might even be his goal cause in his mind that's how the game works, your either the DM or you get to have the DM lord being the DM over you while your at the mercy of his whims and the whims of the dice.

Heck, it even fits with Ell's parents loosing there daughter and going after him but never quite pinning him down. Of course they didn't, DM gave his pet Plot Armor and would bend, break or ignore rules at the drop of a hat to protect him. And do things to make the party keep fighting this guy even when they had no reason to do so, like have them run off and come back to find there daughter missing, presumed dead.




Mind, I am unfortunately backing Ardon as the somewhat Lesser Evil here, cause anything that doesn't let him and his party get XP for this only helps shore up Ell's parents position and help them justify that they were never in the wrong. And I am by no means convinced just cause they altered there plan this one time that they have even meaningfully contemplated the possibility that they might have been wrong. Further supported by the Bard having to outright lie to Ell to get her to talk to her father going forward, and I'm betting there plan was just to show up, kill the gate Guardian, tell Ell and Odi to sight tight, fly up there and have there big damn confrontation with Dire cause that's all they care about at the end of the day.

Having Ardon and his party take that out form under them would be far preferable then just reenforcing there position atop there high horses.

[The Glyphstone]

...I honestly think you're reading entire encyclopedias' worth too much into this. The line about dungeon inspectors/dungeon masters is just another repetition of the joke with the Feywild being The Modern World Imitated Via Magic. Having deep-seated issues regarding railroad DMs is fine, but extrapolating one comment by a disposable villain into some sort of grand commentary on DM styles, while retrofitting the rest of the plot into evidence of this, is a bit excessive.

[Metahuman1]

And if Ell's parents hadn't turned out to be horrible people who are walking insults to the concepts behind the Paladin class by virtue of there very existence, I'd be more willing to agree with you.



Heck, if they were REALLY giving her the chance to save her party members and it wasn't the Cleric and Bard going behind the Paladin's backs, or if they'd just stayed completely out of it and not shown up and Ell had managed another way inside, I'd be more willing to agree.


But sadly, as it stands, unless something changes, I'm really not likely to give it credence. More so if Ell's parents are allowed to get the XP for beating Dire and/or are allowed to kill him by the end of this Arc. Because then again, it's just more support to there world view that they are right and have done right when by rights there the one's the universe should be contriving itself to make punching bags of.

[The Glyphstone]

You're changing topics. You were complaining about Dire being some sort of straw DM/DMPC, and talking about how the Terrible Paladin Pals were proof and evidence of his DMPCness, as if he was the protagonist and they were his enemies instead of the other way round. Now you're focusing on the TPP and...the fact that they exist?

It's quite obvious that the TPP are meant as a caricature of how not to be a paladin, in direct contrast to Ell's better paladining. It's very likely that they will get the XP for this, not because that means the author somehow supports their worldview, but because it would make the actual PCs miserable, which is funny. Neither of these are remotely related to your position on Dire being more than 'the bad guy they fight'. He's a disposable high-level villain paired against equally disposable high-level 'heroes', whose story has intersected the actual plot. He's nothing more and nothing less.

[Metahuman1]

Less "intersecting" and more "willfully attempting to Hi-Jack" the story.


And what sounds more plausible to you in a D&Dverse. The DM is running the system the wrong way cause he liked running a different system of a similar name that way 20 years ago. Or. The Universe is geared to do nothing but make the PC's miserable by auto-contriving itself so that the hero's always loose cause Funny?



Also, look at the way TPP have operated up to this point. If they end up "Triumphant." or even close too it in there minds, exactly what is gonna be stopping them form running rough shot over the actual party starting one combat round after that triumph, or at most 1 five minute rest from it to spend surges and recover encounter powers? You know, cause "Hey, we can't have been that wrong, our daughter's just overly emotional and poorly trained, obviously, I mean, we actually freaking beat Dire after all and the XP is proof! Now, we've got to impose "Justice" cause it is "Justice" on the Eladrin, and we know it's Justice cause our sheet says Paladin, were higher level then them and we just happen to have beaten the bad guy, not them, cause we got the XP for it, even if it was weird that when we got our first shot at him he only had 1 HP left but whatever, in material!, Anyway, and then were just gonna Drag our daughter and that other friend of her's and the Kobolt along cause we know what's best!"

If they succeed in taking out Dire and get the XP for his demise in place of Ardon, Ell, Odi, Peanut and 45 doing so and getting the XP, there is nothing stopping TPP form doing exactly this, not even there internal logic, which would indeed demand they do it immediately and with out pause.

The fact that Dire is being set up as a straw-man for a certain DMing style and that that style can, in hindsight of that comment and knowledge of what it is, be seen plain as day, is just an aside. An annoying one, but an Aside none the less.

[The Glyphstone]

Less "intersecting" and more "willfully attempting to Hi-Jack" the story.


And what sounds more plausible to you in a D&Dverse. The DM is running the system the wrong way cause he liked running a different system of a similar name that way 20 years ago. Or. The Universe is geared to do nothing but make the PC's miserable by auto-contriving itself so that the hero's always loose cause Funny?

The second, because like in OOtS, there isn't a DM. It is not a D&D game, it's a universe where the laws of physics are replaced by the laws of 4E. And because it is a comedic webcomic and black comedy/slapstick humor is low-hanging fruit, it makes its characters suffer so we the readers can laugh at their suffering.

Also, look at the way TPP have operated up to this point. If they end up "Triumphant." or even close too it in there minds, exactly what is gonna be stopping them form running rough shot over the actual party starting one combat round after that triumph, or at most 1 five minute rest from it to spend surges and recover encounter powers? You know, cause "Hey, we can't have been that wrong, our daughter's just overly emotional and poorly trained, obviously, I mean, we actually freaking beat Dire after all and the XP is proof! Now, we've got to impose "Justice" cause it is "Justice" on the Eladrin, and we know it's Justice cause our sheet says Paladin, were higher level then them and we just happen to have beaten the bad guy, not them, cause we got the XP for it, even if it was weird that when we got our first shot at him he only had 1 HP left but whatever, in material!, Anyway, and then were just gonna Drag our daughter and that other friend of her's and the Kobolt along cause we know what's best!"

If they succeed in taking out Dire and get the XP for his demise in place of Ardon, Ell, Odi, Peanut and 45 doing so and getting the XP, there is nothing stopping TPP form doing exactly this, not even there internal logic, which would indeed demand they do it immediately and with out pause.

They're caricatures of overly duty-focused Paladins, not a squad of Miko clones. There is more than one way to play a bad paladin.

The fact that Dire is being set up as a straw-man for a certain DMing style and that that style can, in hindsight of that comment and knowledge of what it is, be seen plain as day, is just an aside. An annoying one, but an Aside none the less.

No, it can't. You've founded this entirely on one line of dialogue with a much simpler explanation. The only person it's plain as day is to you, and it's actually the middle of the night during a new moon. This story arc is not about Dire, that should be plain as day. The story arc is resolving and advancing Ell's issues with abandonment and her family, Dire is nothing beyond a living breathing(?) plot point to explain why Ell's high-level family is conveniently in the neighborhood at the same time. Remember, this arc has also demonstrated that Ardon and his friends are the ones actually responsible for Ell being an orphan, the TPP have been blaming Dire the entire time for no reason.

[Metahuman1]

Maybe. But for the longest time It's been acting like it does want to be more. Dropping suggestions that it wants to be more.

And OOTS didn't have a villain all but scream "Hi, I'm the dungeon master and that means your screwed!" at a main character that I recall. Though I grant I've not done an OOTS archive binge in some time so I might be forgetting something.



There caricatures of Overly Duty Focused and Generally Bad Paladin's, and your asserting the comics universe will contrive itself to always screw over the party of actual main characters. Why, precisely do these two things not add up too "If TPP get's the XP for Dire's kill, weather they earned it or weather it was All Ardon's work and one of there member's dropped one attack to knock Dire's last single hit point off, One of the very top things to do on there to do list from there is to inflict justice on Ardon for Murder, since in there minds, that's a paladin's duty and he committed it of his own free will, and have stated this to be there position on screen?"



And the TPP still have a chunk of the responsibility as if they'd bothered to behave like responsible parents, this could have been just as easily avoided as if Ardon and his collage buddies hadn't picked that particular road way to ride like bats out of hell on for spring break. But they didn't. From were I'm sitting there at least 50% responsible for that.

That said, I will simply agree to disagree with you on the DM point until more evidence one way or the other is presented. Fair enough?

[The Glyphstone]

Sure, agree to disagree.

We could just always hope LSN is reading the thread again, he posts here occasionally. Literal Word of the Author on what was intended might clear it up.

[LoneStarNorth]

Continue fighting! Your emperor demands it!

*eats a fistful of grapes*

Regarding the Archwarlock representing a bad DM, it's not what I was going for. I just thought of it as a one-off line that worked in character and also meant something funny in D&D terms. But it's an interesting interpretation! I can see where it's coming from.

My take on the paladinhood thing has already been linked to earlier in the thread, as well.

EDIT: I'm posting a new vote incentive every Tuesday and Friday this month, they're in-character lore pages about some of Dire's minions. Be sure to check it out!

[ImperatorV]

Why do I get the feeling this won't end in a way anyone could have predicted?

[Marnath]

Why do I get the feeling this won't end in a way anyone could have predicted?

I imagine it is because you have a basic sense of pattern recognition?

[Metahuman1]

Continue fighting! Your emperor demands it!

*eats a fistful of grapes*

Regarding the Archwarlock representing a bad DM, it's not what I was going for. I just thought of it as a one-off line that worked in character and also meant something funny in D&D terms. But it's an interesting interpretation! I can see where it's coming from.

My take on the paladinhood thing has already been linked to earlier in the thread, as well.

EDIT: I'm posting a new vote incentive every Tuesday and Friday this month, they're in-character lore pages about some of Dire's minions. Be sure to check it out!

Well The Glyphstone, there's nothing else for it then. *Draws sword.*



I'm kidding! Just kidding.

[The Glyphstone]

Well The Glyphstone, there's nothing else for it then. *Draws sword.*



I'm kidding! Just kidding.

Swords? What kind of savage are you, anyways, to be beating your foes over the head with crude lumps of sharpened metal?

Pistols at dawn. That is the way that gentlemen fight.

[Metahuman1]

*Red blinking dot on your shirt followed by a loud bang and a hole a fraction of an inch above were the dot was.*

As you wish, though I am a traditionalist usually, hence the preference for the blade. XD!

[The Glyphstone]

Naught but a flesh wound, good sir. Have at thee!

[Metahuman1]

*Takes out obnoxiously hugh hand gun and blows off an arm.*

"Oh lord, I thank thee for this victory....."

[Anteros]

Alright, break it up you two. Let's get back to bickering about pointless things that are actually on topic!

Who else thinks it's interesting that Ardon was only lvl 1 when he came over? Did we already know that?

[ImperatorV]

Alright, break it up you two. Let's get back to bickering about pointless things that are actually on topic!

Who else thinks it's interesting that Ardon was only lvl 1 when he came over? Did we already know that?

Your answer is here: http://willsaveworldforgold.com/?p=21

[stsasser]

Ha! Like Ardon lists everything he's got on his character sheet.

I like Nighmare trying to help Krackabooom and inevitably screwing himself.

[Macros]

I feel for the archwarlock, though. Having to deal with adventurers is one thing, but this... There's a degree of insanity that no one should have to deal with.

(by the way, if Ardon's real plan is indeed to use the special effects to light a fire - wouldn't be too surprised if it's not that - isn't the assumption that the lightning would fall ON the tower quite unlikely? As far as I know, the buildings they were in while Krackaboom name was mentioned were NOT struck by lightning. I was more of a background event.)

[Metahuman1]

I feel for the archwarlock, though. Having to deal with adventurers is one thing, but this... There's a degree of insanity that no one should have to deal with.

(by the way, if Ardon's real plan is indeed to use the special effects to light a fire - wouldn't be too surprised if it's not that - isn't the assumption that the lightning would fall ON the tower quite unlikely? As far as I know, the buildings they were in while Krackaboom name was mentioned were NOT struck by lightning. I was more of a background event.)

He probably has a lighting rod or something set up to catch the bolt and direct it right were it needs to go.


Edit:

Or barring that, now that he's set things in motion Ell either stumbles into the Int improving stuff and get's Odi up to snuff again and 45 or the goblin explain the plan and Odi just goes "Oh, if all he needs is fire, *Insert power name here.*". to do it, or, barring that, Odi shows up in his current condition and Ardin uses his Warlord powers to make him shoot a suitable blast to trigger his trap after all the way he does Peanut.

And in all of those situations, he wins.

But I have a bad feeling Ell will be made to screw this up and her suck-tactual parents will be made to save them all.

Or it will work and Dire's tower will be destroyed but he'll still be up, then Ell's family will polish him off and they'll be the one's who get the XP for it.

And now these are looking increasingly more likely. I think which way it goes will ultimately depend on who either win's initive or has a readied action they can whip out right now.

I hate that I have to root for Ardon to be the one who get's to act first and fire a shot off via Odi Ala the way he uses Peanut. He actually had almost gotten likeable for a spell there. Why couldn't he have just stayed that way? It would be so much easier to root for him then. *Sigh*.

[Draconi Redfir]

his pants can light fires?

[LoneStarNorth]

his pants can light fires?

Behold my mastery of foreshadowing.

[Draconi Redfir]

ahh i see, well done

[Metahuman1]

This is either gonna go really well, or really badly.



I'm hoping for once, it goes really well.

[Seerow]

This is either gonna go really well, or really badly.



I'm hoping for once, it goes really well.

That actually went WAY better than I expected.

[stsasser]

There is no Damage Score. Why is there no Damage Score?

Was Krackabooom only mildly inconvenienced? Annoyed?

[The Glyphstone]

Or we might just be 'zoomed out' too far to see it. Relative to the normal view, damage numbers would be all of a pixel or two high - since they'd be illegible anyways, they'd be omitted.

[LoneStarNorth]

*checks page*

*facepalms*

I covered the damage value with the Ell's text box by mistake. Should be a -49 in there. I'll fix it now, thanks for pointing it out.

[Seerow]

Oh boy, for a day I thought Ardon had miscalculated, and we weren't going to get to see the whole tower get destroyed, just see Dire get taken out.

Now I see Dire survived (and likely running), but the tower is about to fall apart. I want to follow Ardon for his next victory lap.