Will Save World For Gold. (Thread Mark III)

[Metahuman1]

Yeah, as much as we all like to hate Ardon, Odi is in the wrong. And he deserves to get his ass kicked here, both for attacking Ardon like that and doing it without his daily/encounter powers refreshed.

Actually, now that Ardon Admits he knew EXACTLY what he was playing at and just didn't give a ($@!, no, no he isn't in the wrong to beat the **** out of him.


Also, I call BS if Ardon doesn't either get totaled, have the fight interrupted, or have to use the nightmare power to bale himself out. There is no way a leader/controller multyclass should be able to take a straight class striker in a one on one.





Unless all that stuff about 4E being balanced was junk when it was being the corner stone of why I should stop playing the previous edition and spend couple of hundred bucks on new books.

[Seerow]

Actually, now that Ardon Admits he knew EXACTLY what he was playing at and just didn't give a ($@!, no, no he isn't in the wrong to beat the **** out of him.

Ardon knows exactly what he did... but what he did wasn't actually wrong. Ell was not committed to Odivallous in any way. Odivallous and Ardon aren't even friends to the point where you could say some sort of bro code of not going after the girl your bro likes applies. Two single people had sex with each other, a third single person is deciding he wants to beat the hell out of him for this. If you took the overall characterization away and explained the situation to anybody, what you have sounds like an obsessive stalker acting like his object of affection belongs to him alone and has no free will or capability to make decisions for herself.

Also, I call BS if Ardon doesn't either get totaled, have the fight interrupted, or have to use the nightmare power to bale himself out. There is no way a leader/controller multyclass should be able to take a straight class striker in a one on one.

Why not? Ardon can self heal far more effectively and has higher defense (uses a shield and actual armor), while Odi is running on fumes (no dailies and he just blew at least one of his encounter powers). Unless Odivallous can pull out a one round burst kill (which he can't, see: no daily powers), it makes perfect sense that Ardon can outlast him. And that's completely ignoring the advantage of Ardon being able to blow his own daily powers on Odi.

Oh and let's not forget that at the start of this whole solo-quest storyline, we determined that Ell/Ardon are higher level than Odivallous, which is what started the whole thing. Since level ups have been demonstrated to kick in at the end of a long rest in comic, Odivallous is still lower level than Ardon, on top of his other disadvantages.

The scenario works out that Ardon is most likely to win this fight if it resolves by anything resembling the mechanics.

Unless all that stuff about 4E being balanced was junk when it was being the corner stone of why I should stop playing the previous edition and spend couple of hundred bucks on new books.

4e was never balanced for PVP combat, and even if it was I find it extremely dubious that a lower level striker with low resources should always beat somebody for daring to play a non-DPS class.

[Douglas]

Ardon knows exactly what he did... but what he did wasn't actually wrong.

I'm not so sure. It depends a bit on whether Ardon just now figured it out, or if he knew about Odi's feelings all along. If the latter, then Ardon's interruptions were all intentional, and that was a very underhanded thing to do.

[The Mormegil]

I'm not so sure. It depends a bit on whether Ardon just now figured it out, or if he knew about Odi's feelings all along. If the latter, then Ardon's interruptions were all intentional, and that was a very underhanded thing to do.

Maybe. Still doesn't warrant beating him with your magic powers. What Ardon did wasn't wrong, especially because there is another person involved - Ell - with her own mind and her own ideas. Odi REALLY is in the wrong here, no matter how you slice it.

Also, PvP in 4E sucks, it's not built to support it (the whole point of the edition is to split monster and PC mechanics so that you can balance encounters more effectively and ensure cooperation - think how MMORPGs handle PvE and PvP, they split the "required" builds and equipment so as to balance them separately, since they have very different needs). And if this goes by mechanics, Ardon is going to kick Odi's ass so much. Leaders are overpowered in 1v1 situations due to their monopoly on efficient healing, and Odi can't burst with Dailies and Action Points so he doesn't stand a chance really.

[Zyzzyva]

Grrrrar. I'm torn between the fact that Ardon hasn't done anything wrong - Ell's an adult woman who can consent to things on her own, and she doesn't "owe" Odivallus anything - and the fact that Ardon's an asshat who has needed a thumping for basically the entire run of the comic.

[The Mormegil]

Grrrrar. I'm torn between the fact that Ardon hasn't done anything wrong - Ell's an adult woman who can consent to things on her own, and she doesn't "owe" Odivallus anything - and the fact that Ardon's an asshat who has needed a thumping for basically the entire run of the comic.

So you want his thumping to be entirely for the wrong reasons, anticlimatic and definitely not cathartic?

[Draconi Redfir]

So you want his thumping to be entirely for the wrong reasons, anticlimatic and definitely not cathartic?

Oh he got thumped last night alright

i couldn't resist... most likely he was the one doing the thumping though. idk.

[stsasser]

It seems improbable that Ardon would sleep with Ell. Wouldn't he see mating with a human as degrading to the Lord of Owlbears?

[Lizard Lord]

Yea okay. Odie has lost it.

[Zyzzyva]

It seems improbable that Ardon would sleep with Ell. Wouldn't he see mating with a human as degrading to the Lord of Owlbears?

Yes. I am almost certain there was no sex and this is a Three's Company Plot Mixup; that doesn't mean Ardon shouldn't get reamed.

[Metahuman1]

I'm not so sure. It depends a bit on whether Ardon just now figured it out, or if he knew about Odi's feelings all along. If the latter, then Ardon's interruptions were all intentional, and that was a very underhanded thing to do.

Precisely.


Also, yeah, that line about MMO's? Funny thing. Mimicking MMO's was a design goal form day 1 of 4E. Guess who rules MMO PVP? That's Right, The DPS classes. The Strikers.


So, no, actually, by that logic Ardon does NOT have any business winning this fight with out outside help. But thanks for clarifying that yeah, that whole "It's PERFECTLY balanced!" thing was bunk.

As for not having had sex with her. Bull. If he had any legitimate claim to that, the time to say that was before you decided "Yeah, just gonna decapitate you for the equivalent of punching me in the nose." . Oh, and if the excuse given is "He's higher level." Congrats, nothing you ever do will make you anything that even remotely approaches sympathetic again. Ever. Period. You are now officially nothing more then a school yard bully whom I look forward to seeing murdered horribly.

[Ibrinar]

Geez… you are aware that Odi is the one who not just initiated but still wants to fight, right?

[Metahuman1]

And? What, should Odi just decide "Yeah, doesn't matter, here, cut my spine out while your at it would you old buddy?".



Ardon's gone rock bottom before, but this breaks even his own rules over his knee just to do it.


Also, again, I submit cop on flash. If he's not 100% in the wrong, then guess what, now that we know Ardon 100% knew precisely what he was doing and just gave precisely 0 *#(!'s about doing it cause he wanted too and that's the only thing that will ever matter to him, Odi's not anymore in the wrong then he was. (And don't tell me that if multiple people hadn't jumped on flash cop he would still have stopped at the one swing.)


Oh, and I just remembered. No, they don't only level after a long rest. Case in Point, Odi, Ardon and Ell leveled as they were exiting a dungeon not too far from the time they finished that dragon off awhile back.

[Ibrinar]

Why do you think your flash cop is in any way relevant? This isn't a discussion about flash, even if people did find it justifiable and even if the situations were analogous, why should what some people said about it a few weeks ago and presumably not in this thread have any bearing on this discussion?

Anyway could you please state what you think Ardon did wrong and why you think it's wrong?

[Lizard Lord]

Anyway could you please state what you think Ardon did wrong and why you think it's wrong?

Hold one give me a bit. I have a lot of archive trawling to do in order to give you a complete list.


Edit: In chronological order: He held Odivallus hostage in order to escape justice from the guards. It is wrong because he brought in a bystander into his own mess in order to escape the consequences of his actions.
He kicked a human child in the face three or four times because he thought it was a gnomish child. It is wrong because it is child abuse and also his excuse was racist.
He tried to pull a random South Crossing citizen into an old man’s basement for the purpose of falsely accusing him of breaking and entering so that he could assault him with a deadly weapon for the purpose of getting XP. It is wrong because it is kidnapping, attempted assault, and lying.
He allowed the old man mentioned above the rap for the above mentioned kidnapping and attempted assault. It is wrong because Ardon is allowing someone else suffer the consequences of actions that Ardon commted.
He threw a plate at Peanut in order to prove a point about small sized races. It is wrong because it is assault and racist.
He disemboweled a gnome and chucked him off a rooftop and into the middle of a group of school children in order to intimidate other adventurers away from the quest him and Odie wanted to go on. It is wrong because it is murder as well as a likely cause of traumatization to the mentioned children.

Can I stop now? If not I can pick it up after some sleep and while this wasn't that deep into the archives it is late for me.

[The Mormegil]

Odi is pretty clearly not beating up Ardon because of all that stuff. He didn't before. The only reason he's doing it now is that he had set with Ell. Which is none of his business.

Fortunately now Ell will probably beat both of them senseless.

[Lizard Lord]

Odi is pretty clearly not beating up Ardon because of all that stuff. He didn't before. The only reason he's doing it now is that he had set with Ell. Which is none of his business.

Fortunately now Ell will probably beat both of them senseless.

Odie said he would kill Ardon if he had proof of that last one. Maybe sleeping with Ell proves it somehow.


In all seriousness I do think Odie is, at best, over reacting. Which sucks because I want to see him give Ardon a deserved beating.

[Douglas]

Odi is pretty clearly not beating up Ardon because of all that stuff. He didn't before. The only reason he's doing it now is that he had set with Ell. Which is none of his business.

Fortunately now Ell will probably beat both of them senseless.

Assuming both that everything is as it seems and that Ardon knew all along, the far more pertinent thing Ardon did is this:

He intentionally actively prevented a competitor for a woman's attention from making his interest known, thus denying her highly relevant information in order to manipulate her into sleeping with him instead of the competitor.

If Odi had successfully expressed his feelings, as he attempted to do several times but was stopped by Ardon each time, and Ell chose in spite of that knowledge to ignore him and sleep with Ardon, then Odi would unambiguously be in the wrong here and Ardon in the right. If Odi had voluntarily kept his feelings hidden, this would also be true. Either way he'd still be pissed off, but I would side definitively with Ardon.

The fact that Odi was shut out by a deliberate information concealment campaign is what makes this morally ambiguous.

[Ibrinar]

Hold one give me a bit. I have a lot of archive trawling to do in order to give you a complete list.

Heh, I thought "In this case" was implied by context.^^

[Zyzzyva]

Congrats, nothing you ever do will make you anything that even remotely approaches sympathetic again. Ever. Period.

...This is an opinion on Ardon you're only just forming now?

[The Mormegil]

Assuming both that everything is as it seems and that Ardon knew all along, the far more pertinent thing Ardon did is this:

He intentionally actively prevented a competitor for a woman's attention from making his interest known, thus denying her highly relevant information in order to manipulate her into sleeping with him instead of the competitor.

If Odi had successfully expressed his feelings, as he attempted to do several times but was stopped by Ardon each time, and Ell chose in spite of that knowledge to ignore him and sleep with Ardon, then Odi would unambiguously be in the wrong here and Ardon in the right. If Odi had voluntarily kept his feelings hidden, this would also be true. Either way he'd still be pissed off, but I would side definitively with Ardon.

The fact that Odi was shut out by a deliberate information concealment campaign is what makes this morally ambiguous.

I fail to see how that is really relevant. I don't think Ell has been manipulated into anything. I don't think she'd have slept with Odie in this situation. I don't even believe Ardon sees her as a romantic interest. Was Ardon a douchebag for stopping Odie? Yes. Is that in any way even remotely deserving of a beating? No. Is sleeping with Ell deserving of a beating? No. Is anything involving Odi's and Ardon's relations with Ell deserving of a beating? No.

Assuming Ardon actually is interested in Ell (which I don't buy), and that his interference was voluntary (which I don't buy; or rather, my headcanon is that Ardon doesn't want Odi and Ell to get together because it would distract them from their work as adventurers - in his case it's different because he doesn't really care, and Ell doesn't care either). That still doesn't justify Odi. He is trying very hard to injure and seriously hurt Ardon for a totally wrong reason. And he's getting his ass handed to himself, because he's Odi and as usual he doesn't know which end of his spear to use if Ardon doesn't spell it out for him.

Prediction on how this is going to end: Ell is going to beat them both, then explain to Odi that casual sex is none of his business, and that if he had a shot before now she's pissed off at his overreaction and disappointed. And when Ardon tries to be a smartass she's going to shut him down too.

[Douglas]

I don't even believe Ardon sees her as a romantic interest.

Neither do I, and that makes his manipulation rather a lot more deplorable, because he was intentionally blocking a genuine romantic suitor in favor of his own casual pleasure.

[Metahuman1]

Assuming both that everything is as it seems and that Ardon knew all along, the far more pertinent thing Ardon did is this:

He intentionally actively prevented a competitor for a woman's attention from making his interest known, thus denying her highly relevant information in order to manipulate her into sleeping with him instead of the competitor.

If Odi had successfully expressed his feelings, as he attempted to do several times but was stopped by Ardon each time, and Ell chose in spite of that knowledge to ignore him and sleep with Ardon, then Odi would unambiguously be in the wrong here and Ardon in the right. If Odi had voluntarily kept his feelings hidden, this would also be true. Either way he'd still be pissed off, but I would side definitively with Ardon.

The fact that Odi was shut out by a deliberate information concealment campaign is what makes this morally ambiguous.

Actually, not quite. It just means Ardon's 100% in the wrong. The rest is spot on however.

And the fact that he's winning with out having to pull out some sort of outside interference or the nightmare spirit even though he's multyclassing and thus should be lower level in both classes and less powerful at both things then Odi, and should quite frankly be loosing this fight quite handily, just makes me feel "Yup, it's official, he's become a Mary Sue.".


So, yeah, this web comic is DANGEROUSLY close to loosing me as a reader for good.

[The Glyphstone]

That seems to happen every few months (being on the verge of quitting)...during the nightmare arc, during the warlock arc...you'd think if you hated it that much, you would already have given up. You've had a rather maniacal loathing for Ardon and everything related to him pretty much from the start.

Also, you don't appear to understand how multiclassing works in 4E. It's not a matter of levels, you spend a feat to get some abilities/powers from your 'second' class.

[Zaydos]

I'm going to note that in 4e you just take a feat to multiclass. So he's a full level warlord with a feat that gives him a minor feature from another class.

Also Sorcerer is all about multitarget damage and not good 1 v 1 from my (limited) experience.

[Metahuman1]

Not how I recall it, or how they explained in in comic when it first came up that Ardon was doing it.


Here's the thing with a character like Ardon. He needs to loose. Often. Or, he needs to cut back on Crap like this to a serious degree. Or else he becomes insufferable. He basically never looses, particularly in any way that ends up mattering, and he's not cutting the crap as needed. And, yeah, they've come close before and managed to bounce back at the last second. Damn if In know how they even might have a chance to bounce back form this one though. About the only things I can think of are that Elf Ranger or Ardon's dad's minions getting involved and shutting down Ardon's position rather mercilessly just for there own personal reasons. And since I'm kinda not betting on it, dangerously close to me bailing out.



Hell, he could have maybe salvaged this by going on defense and just saying "Wow, hey, wait a minute, you mean you? Well crap, look, um, dude, didn't realize, can we just talk?"

Instead, he goes straight for being a condescending prick on grounds of "I can because plot armor." (Which, again, is the reason he's not getting pasted in this fight.)



Edit: I thought Wizard was the multy-target damage one and Sorc was ranged single target damage? That's what the books said they were suppose to be back when I was experimenting with the system.

[The Glyphstone]

So the fact that Odi spent all his daily/encounter powers, and action points, fighting the demon clowns is 'plot armor'?

I guess that's true for a very, very loose definition of plot armor, in the sense of 'there was plot that resulted in this situation happening'?

Frankly, the plot armor is being given to Odivallus. Ardon is Chaotic Evil, and will straight-up murder someone who attacked him out of the blue, party member or not. The only reason Odi is going to live through this incredibly stupid decision is Ell coming to break up the fight. Even your tunnel-vision loathing of Ardon should still let you see that.

[Lizard Lord]

Something has occurred to me. How would Odivallus's small tribal society treat the idea of casual sex? That may help in understanding his mindset here. Or it could be that this is just the straw that broke the camel's back.

I also want to say that it amuses me that no NPC has freaked out about the talking skull.

[Ibrinar]

So Ell interfered as expected, the real question is why does her questioning him surprise Odi, there is no reason for her to take his side in this since he was the attacker. (Okay probably because angry Odi isn't all that rational.)

[The Mormegil]

So Ell interfered as expected, the real question is why does her questioning him surprise Odi, there is no reason for her to take his side in this since he was the attacker. (Okay probably because angry Odi isn't all that rational.)

I have no idea what Odi is thinking right now. I'm pretty curious.