The Index of the Giant's Comments III - We've Left a Banana In Charge

[DaggerPen]

Maybe a "themes and message" section?

[ti'esar]

Maybe a "themes and message" section?

I like that as a title.

[Gwynfrid]

That's a good point. A category about what points Rich wants to make with the comic?

Yes. Here are a couple of examples:
- This one is in the Alignment section, it's got nothing to do with alignment and a lot to do with the Giant's intent. It includes the point "fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism", which I've seen people refer to quite a few times, either to approve it or to protest against it.
- This one is in "storytelling mistakes", for reasons that are beyond me.

I'm sure I could find more if I go comb everything.

"Themes and messages" is not bad as a title if we agree to create such a section, but I'd suggest something like "The author's intent regarding the real world".

[137beth]

Maybe a "themes and message" section?

"themes and messages".
But yea, I like it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

And, another new quote.

[137beth]

How about "everything the characters say is attributable to the author" as a summary?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

How about "everything the characters say is attributable to the author" as a summary?

That looks good, but perhaps we could broaden it to (as the Giant says) every aspect of the comic?

[Jasdoif]

So far, people have said that the four quotes can be added in as a "see also" to existing entries.

Hmm. I think it's a little tenuous to claim "all four" was implied by those posts.

Maybe a "themes and message" section?

Yes. Here are a couple of examples:
- This one is in the Alignment section, it's got nothing to do with alignment and a lot to do with the Giant's intent. It includes the point "fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism", which I've seen people refer to quite a few times, either to approve it or to protest against it.
- This one is in "storytelling mistakes", for reasons that are beyond me.

I'm sure I could find more if I go comb everything.

Well, those both look like "closest fit to an existing section" categorization....Guess when I have the time I'll go through every entry, see if I can find enough to warrant adding a new section. In the meantime...feel free to comb away!

Actually wait...the "petty escapism" quote is a see also? OK, pretty sure that one deserves its own entry, let me work something up....

---

Now then, this is where I think we're at for entries with new quotes:

LGBT Characters Why there aren't more in the comic. Also see this, and what the Giant is doing about it now.	#882	04/08/2013
Authorship and Responsibility "Every aspect of the comic is under my direct control, so the only person who should be judged regarding the appropriateness of the language is me...." Also see this.	#959	07/27/2014
The Importance Of Messages in Stories "The author should not leave out his or her message so as not to disrupt the delicate story."	#959	07/25/2014
The Purpose of Fiction "Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism." See also here.	#835	02/14/2012

Still not sure how to most effectively cite the tweet(s?), since without the articles/rules it doesn't make much sense.

[Zherog]

Make the tweets effectively one entry. In that entry, also link to the article and include a sentence about how the 5e rules are more open about gender, gender identity, etc. Something like, "For reference, here is the article Rich was commenting on, and the discussion is about how the rules in 5th Edition take into account gender, gender identity, and sexuality." (And make "here is the article" a link; I'm too lazy. ;) )

[Jasdoif]

Yes. Here are a couple of examples:
- This one is in the Alignment section, it's got nothing to do with alignment and a lot to do with the Giant's intent. It includes the point "fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism", which I've seen people refer to quite a few times, either to approve it or to protest against it.
- This one is in "storytelling mistakes", for reasons that are beyond me.

I'm sure I could find more if I go comb everything.

"Themes and messages" is not bad as a title if we agree to create such a section, but I'd suggest something like "The author's intent regarding the real world".

Well, those both look like "closest fit to an existing section" categorization....Guess when I have the time I'll go through every entry, see if I can find enough to warrant adding a new section. In the meantime...feel free to comb away!

OK, here's what I ended up with for our current entries that could fit with such a section:

Real World Intent
On Distasteful Jokes in OOTS "I simply have no interest in doing so anymore because I have grown the **** up since then...."	#935	12/20/2013
Tarquin's Internal and External Evil About the message that the Giant developed Tarquin's character in part to convey.	#934	12/08/2013
On the story taking a more moral stance Two reasons from the author.	#931	11/19/2013
Stereotypes and Characters More thoughts on stereotypes, including race, weight, and vocation.	#931	11/19/2013
Slut-shaming in OOTS Rich apologizes for Haley's slut-shaming in the comic, and gives further thoughts.	#931	11/18/2013
Challenging Storytelling Conventions "[There are] people who need to have their strict views on storytelling challenged. Much like Tarquin does."	#930	11/13/2013
Art Should Challenge Preconceptions	#891	06/07/2013
LGBT Characters Why there aren't more in the comic. Also see this.	#882	04/08/2013
D&D, Alignment, and Morality Rich on the comic's criticism of the way D&D has been played for over three decades. "D&D cannot and should not begin and end at black-and-white, and indeed already doesn't, if everyone would just learn to look at things a little more complexly." See also here (D&D "racism" and alignment) and here (the real world applicability of Redcloak's story).	#835	02/14/2012

That half of its entries are currently in some of the larger tables ("Storytelling Mistakes?" and "Writing Process and Story Development") is a nice bonus. What's everyone think?

---

Make the tweets effectively one entry. In that entry, also link to the article and include a sentence about how the 5e rules are more open about gender, gender identity, etc. Something like, "For reference, here is the article Rich was commenting on, and the discussion is about how the rules in 5th Edition take into account gender, gender identity, and sexuality." (And make "here is the article" a link; I'm too lazy. ;) )

So....Something like this?

The Giant Applauding 5E D&D's Acknowledgement of Diversity Specifically, how the core rules take into account gender, gender identity, and sexuality; as referred to the article here.

#958

07/24/2014

[Jaxzan Proditor]

OK, here's what I ended up with for our current entries that could fit with such a section:

Real World Intent
On Distasteful Jokes in OOTS "I simply have no interest in doing so anymore because I have grown the **** up since then...."	#935	12/20/2013
Tarquin's Internal and External Evil About the message that the Giant developed Tarquin's character in part to convey.	#934	12/08/2013
On the story taking a more moral stance Two reasons from the author.	#931	11/19/2013
Stereotypes and Characters More thoughts on stereotypes, including race, weight, and vocation.	#931	11/19/2013
Slut-shaming in OOTS Rich apologizes for Haley's slut-shaming in the comic, and gives further thoughts.	#931	11/18/2013
Challenging Storytelling Conventions "[There are] people who need to have their strict views on storytelling challenged. Much like Tarquin does."	#930	11/13/2013
Art Should Challenge Preconceptions	#891	06/07/2013
LGBT Characters Why there aren't more in the comic. Also see this.	#882	04/08/2013
D&D, Alignment, and Morality Rich on the comic's criticism of the way D&D has been played for over three decades. "D&D cannot and should not begin and end at black-and-white, and indeed already doesn't, if everyone would just learn to look at things a little more complexly." See also here (D&D "racism" and alignment) and here (the real world applicability of Redcloak's story).	#835	02/14/2012

That half of its entries are currently in some of the larger tables ("Storytelling Mistakes?" and "Writing Process and Story Development") is a nice bonus. What's everyone think?

I like the look of it, and how it will reduce the size of some of our larger tables.

[Gwynfrid]

Great stuff, Jasdoif. I like the title of the new section, too. Did you look at the entire Index to fish those quotes? I wanted to do it, but lacked the time. I think this change is going to make the whole thing look much better organized overall. Some sections were getting too big, with too varied content to remain useful. This is way better.

[Brookshw]

Yay there's new quotes to discuss!

It certainly seems to tie into an existing entry in the Index:

LGBT Characters Why there aren't more in the comic. Also see this.

#882

04/08/2013

I guess the question is if the new one would work better as another "see also", or if the entry should be rewritten to use this new quote as the main point and make the others "see also"s.

The optimizers must love that quote

I think trying to not offend people is a worthwhile goal. Unless they get offended by less-than-optimum D&D tactics, in which case to hell with them.

[Jasdoif]

Did you look at the entire Index to fish those quotes? I wanted to do it, but lacked the time.

I got woken up about an hour early this morning, so I looked through the entries in the Index for ones that looked like (or that I remembered would) fit with this proposed category. I didn't check every linked quote, so it's certainly possible I missed some.

I think this change is going to make the whole thing look much better organized overall. Some sections were getting too big, with too varied content to remain useful. This is way better.

I sure hope so....In any case, unless there's sufficient objections forthcoming, I plan to get to this reorganization sometime today/tonight.

The optimizers must love that quote

I think trying to not offend people is a worthwhile goal. Unless they get offended by less-than-optimum D&D tactics, in which case to hell with them.

I gather they could relate well to that quote, yes. Someone being offended by an optimizer's character decisions would be as frustrating as someone being offended by the Giant's character decisions, I imagine.

[Jasdoif]

In any case, unless there's sufficient objections forthcoming, I plan to get to this reorganization sometime today/tonight.

"No objections" clearly falls short of "sufficient objections" I've added the new "Real World Intent" table into the "Story, Plot, and Characters" section....And I just realized that means the "Story, Plot, and Characters" section has 13 tables now, while the second-most section in that regard is Art with...4 tables. That can't be convenient....

OK, so if we add a "Writing" section...I think I could move "Storytelling Mistakes?", "Plot Holes", "Writing Process and Story Development", the new "Real World Intent", "Character Names" (probably calling it Character Naming since that's slightly more accurate for the quotes there) and "The Story as a D&D Spoof" to it. Giving us a 7 and a 6...which is still higher than the 4, but should be more manageable to look through than the 13 there is now.

Anyone have comments/suggestions/disdain for this idea?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

OK, so if we add a "Writing" section...I think I could move "Storytelling Mistakes?", "Plot Holes", "Writing Process and Story Development", the new "Real World Intent", "Character Names" (probably calling it Character Naming since that's slightly more accurate for the quotes there) and "The Story as a D&D Spoof" to it. Giving us a 7 and a 6...which is still higher than the 4, but should be more manageable to look through than the 13 there is now.

Anyone have comments/suggestions/disdain for this idea?

I like the sound of that. Hopefully it will make the Index even easier to search through.

[Gwynfrid]

"No objections" clearly falls short of "sufficient objections" I've added the new "Real World Intent" table into the "Story, Plot, and Characters" section....And I just realized that means the "Story, Plot, and Characters" section has 13 tables now, while the second-most section in that regard is Art with...4 tables. That can't be convenient....

OK, so if we add a "Writing" section...I think I could move "Storytelling Mistakes?", "Plot Holes", "Writing Process and Story Development", the new "Real World Intent", "Character Names" (probably calling it Character Naming since that's slightly more accurate for the quotes there) and "The Story as a D&D Spoof" to it. Giving us a 7 and a 6...which is still higher than the 4, but should be more manageable to look through than the 13 there is now.

Anyone have comments/suggestions/disdain for this idea?

Right. "Story, Plot and Characters" is too wide a category anyway and was bound to explode. Separating "Writing" is a good way to do it cleanly. We leave the explanations of the characters' development etc, and we get a new section with the author's intent IRL. At the present rate, that section will grow (the recent quotes spurred by #959 commentary are coming). If it goes on in the same vein, we may have to revise further but we aren't there yet.

[pendell]

Hinjo is colorblind .

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jasdoif]

Hinjo is colorblind.

Aha, I did miss a post here earlier! Though I prefer Gwynfrid's summary; Focusing on the Hinjo portion strikes me as missing the tropical forest for the banana trees.

The comic is a tool to express Rich's ideas and it has evolved to better reflect his view of the world. (And by the way, Hinjo is color-blind).

(Note to self: posts getting missed by self because they're near the bottom of the page still sucks when it happens to posters other than self)


Actually...it it'd be a great accompaniment to this quote, wouldn't it?

---

So that would put us at....

LGBT Characters Why there aren't more in the comic. Also see this, and what the Giant is doing about it now.	#882	04/08/2013
Authorship and Responsibility "Every aspect of the comic is under my direct control, so the only person who should be judged regarding the appropriateness of the language is me...." Also see this.	#959	07/27/2014
The Importance Of Messages in Stories "The author should not leave out his or her message so as not to disrupt the delicate story." See also here.	#959	07/25/2014
The Purpose of Fiction "Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism." See also here.	#835	02/14/2012
The Giant Applauding 5E D&D's Acknowledgement of Diversity Specifically, how the core rules take into account gender, gender identity, and sexuality; as referred to the article here.	#958	07/24/2014

Incidentally....Is it my banan-imagination, or have we had an unusually low amount of discussion on this latest batch of quotes?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Incidentally....Is it my banan-imagination, or have we had an unusually low amount of discussion on this latest batch of quotes?

If you mean discussion about their inclusion, then I think that's right. I guess we all agree that the quotes fit the rules.

[Gwynfrid]

If you mean discussion about their inclusion, then I think that's right. I guess we all agree that the quotes fit the rules.

Yes, I think that much is obvious.

Now of course if you're referring to discussion of the quotes' contents, then it's another story altogether - off-topic for this thread, I hasten to say

[137beth]

Yes, I think that much is obvious.

Now of course if you're referring to discussion of the quotes' contents, then it's another story altogether - off-topic for this thread, I hasten to say

There's also been a bit more discussion about how best to summarize and organize the latest quotes. But yea, no disagreement about whether to include them.
Fitting, since they are quotes about inclusion

[DaggerPen]

Aha, I did miss a post here earlier! Though I prefer Gwynfrid's summary; Focusing on the Hinjo portion strikes me as missing the tropical forest for the banana trees.(Note to self: posts getting missed by self because they're near the bottom of the page still sucks when it happens to posters other than self)


Actually...it it'd be a great accompaniment to this quote, wouldn't it?

---

So that would put us at....

LGBT Characters Why there aren't more in the comic. Also see this, and what the Giant is doing about it now.	#882	04/08/2013
Authorship and Responsibility "Every aspect of the comic is under my direct control, so the only person who should be judged regarding the appropriateness of the language is me...." Also see this.	#959	07/27/2014
The Importance Of Messages in Stories "The author should not leave out his or her message so as not to disrupt the delicate story." See also here.	#959	07/25/2014
The Purpose of Fiction "Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism." See also here.	#835	02/14/2012
The Giant Applauding 5E D&D's Acknowledgement of Diversity Specifically, how the core rules take into account gender, gender identity, and sexuality; as referred to the article here.	#958	07/24/2014

Incidentally....Is it my banan-imagination, or have we had an unusually low amount of discussion on this latest batch of quotes?

I'd actually like to chime in for that quote getting its own entry, just because I know that when I go hunting for it, at least, I'm going to be looking for the "(also, Hinjo is colorblind)" addition as its identifying feature distinct from his other discussions.

[Gwynfrid]

I'd actually like to chime in for that quote getting its own entry, just because I know that when I go hunting for it, at least, I'm going to be looking for the "(also, Hinjo is colorblind)" addition as its identifying feature distinct from his other discussions.

The two really address one and the same subject, so I'd rather not separate them. On the other hand, Hinjo's color-blindness is important as a signpost, because it's memorable. I'm proposing a compromise:

LGBT Characters Why there aren't more in the comic. Also see this, and what the Giant is doing about it now.	#882	04/08/2013
Authorship and Responsibility "Every aspect of the comic is under my direct control, so the only person who should be judged regarding the appropriateness of the language is me...." Also see this.	#959	07/27/2014
The Importance Of Messages in Stories "The author should not leave out his or her message so as not to disrupt the delicate story." See also here: "The story is a tool for getting my ideas across, nothing more." On a totally related note: Hinjo is color-blind.	#959	07/25/2014
The Purpose of Fiction "Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism." See also here.	#835	02/14/2012
The Giant Applauding 5E D&D's Acknowledgement of Diversity Specifically, how the core rules take into account gender, gender identity, and sexuality; as referred to the article here.	#958	07/24/2014

[DaggerPen]

That looks good to me.

[oppyu]

New post, though I'm not sure if it covers much new ground aside from people appreciate #959.

[Porthos]

New post, though I'm not sure if it covers much new ground aside from people appreciate #959.

I don't think that one's very necessary, IMO. Really doesn't address anything beyond fan politics. And I say this as a person who usually errs fairly heavily on inclusion.

[Ceaon]

LGBT Characters Why there aren't more in the comic. Also see this, and what the Giant is doing about it now.

#882

04/08/2013

Incidentally....Is it my banan-imagination, or have we had an unusually low amount of discussion on this latest batch of quotes?

Here's some discussion then I'd prefer it if we refrain from using the word "now" in this entry and change it to "as of # (comic number)" or "as of (date of linked post)".

[Bird]

I don't think that one's very necessary, IMO. Really doesn't address anything beyond fan politics. And I say this as a person who usually errs fairly heavily on inclusion.

I agree. It seems more cathartic than informational.

[Gwynfrid]

I agree with Porthos and Bird. No need to include that one.