Numenera: General Discussion.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Cyphers are fun. You kinda just need to go with it as a GM. The players will use them to screw up any planing you did but you just need to run with it i guess. The defiantly have a way of making encounters more interesting which is good.

Oh, yeah. I just remembered one of my crowning moments of terrible judgement in the Numenara campaign I played in.

I threw the singularity grenade (I don't know what it's actually called, but it's a Cypher that makes a black hole) into an extradimensional passage.



I think I did a very good job of driving the GM batty with that one action.

[Raimun]

I don't think it's necessarily the bit with the most mechanical definition. The fact that my character was able to slowly pass through walls? Pretty definitive. Existing halfway in this world and another world was also incredibly definitive when it came to the shape of the story.

Let's see what Glaive (Ie. Type) offers you (not listing stuff everyone gets):
- Starting stats: Might 11, Speed 10, Int 7. Add 6 points how you want to.
- Might & Speed Edges of 1, Int-Edge 0
- Maximum of Two cyphers you can carry
- Practiced in armor
- Practiced in all weapons
- Skill Training in one of the following: balancing, climbing, jumping, swimming
- Equipment: Two weapons, (or one weapon and shield), light or medium armor, explorer's pack and two cyphers and an oddity
- Two fighting moves (which are lame)

Compare this to descriptors which add something like:
- 2 to 4 points of bonus to one stat
- Skill Training or two
(- Inability, basically a Minus-Skill, not all descriptors get this)
(- One additional piece of equipment, not all descriptors get this)
(- Special bonus, rare, only few descriptors get this)
- Initial Link to the Starting Adventure (Okay, this is neat but it's only one individual event in the character's life.)

Focus adds the following:
- Connection (generally means your power works in a funny way near another PC for additional slapstick )
(- Additional piece of equipment, if the focus requires tools, many do not require them)
- Minor and Major effect suggestions (Critical hit effects, eg. On crit, lightning-dude's sword sparks with electricity)
- Tier 1 Special power. (Most often this is like a spell)

The fighter/rogue/mage triad is just a foundation to build the rest of the character around, and the main difference it makes is: what your optimum stat is, whether you get innate special powers, and how many skills you have. Mix that with cyphers, and I found that in practice, it really isn't all that much of a bugaboo.

See i didn't even think of the game as having classes. The character type, which is what you referring too, is just a way determining your characters preference. Be it Martial combat, skills, or "magic".

So, if I make a Glaive (or Nano or Jack), over 50% of my character's capabilities have already been decided. This is what I mean when I say "mechanical definition". When I design a character, I keep a close eye to what I want the character to excel in and how to accomplish this.

For example, what if I wanted to make a really smart character ("Ancient technology? Int sounds good.") and just took your advice (along the lines of: play what you want)? What if I wanted to be a Glaive ("All the others made Nanos and Jacks and I have this idea...")? I'd have to put all my six ability points to Int, pick a descriptor that adds +2 to Int (Strong willed is +4 but the Inabilities give penalties to Int-skills) and I'd get either one Knowledge or Numenera skill.

By doing all I can to go against the Type (heh), I would still only have 15 Int, my Int-Edge would still be 0 and I would have something like 1 Int-skill. As a result, any Nano could out-think my "Smart Glaive"... and he would be the worst Glaive ever with minimum Might and Speed. The maximum number of Esoteries (spells) would be about two (Mystical-desription+right Focus) and he couldn't use them as often as any random Nano (because of no Int-Edge and low Int-pool).

Of course, the reverse is also true. No Nano could ever out-fight or out-muscle a Glaive in the long run, no matter how hard he tried. So, if you want to be athletic or warrior-like, you need to be a Glaive. If you want to be intellectual or wizard-like, you need to be a Nano. If you want to mix these a bit, you need to be a Jack or you can't do anything well. Do note that I have no problem with this. It just means that the Type is exactly like Class in DnD. It defines your character's mechanical abilities more than any other factor, ie. no Fighter can really be known as a loremaster if there's a decent Wizard in the party.

In short, I think that in RPGs a character is defined by the "sum" of their abilities and they should be in line with the backstory and personality you came up with. So, in Numenera, if I decided that my character should be, among other things, really intelligent, making a Glaive would be right out. Doubly so if I wanted him to be a numenera-expert.

In a nutshell: Make no mistake, Numenera is your basic class based RPG, with a few twists here and there.

[Kaun]

Spoiler

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So, if I make a Glaive (or Nano or Jack), over 50% of my character's capabilities have already been decided. This is what I mean when I say "mechanical definition". When I design a character, I keep a close eye to what I want the character to excel in and how to accomplish this.

For example, what if I wanted to make a really smart character ("Ancient technology? Int sounds good.") and just took your advice (along the lines of: play what you want)? What if I wanted to be a Glaive ("All the others made Nanos and Jacks and I have this idea...")? I'd have to put all my six ability points to Int, pick a descriptor that adds +2 to Int (Strong willed is +4 but the Inabilities give penalties to Int-skills) and I'd get either one Knowledge or Numenera skill.

By doing all I can to go against the Type (heh), I would still only have 15 Int, my Int-Edge would still be 0 and I would have something like 1 Int-skill. As a result, any Nano could out-think my "Smart Glaive"... and he would be the worst Glaive ever with minimum Might and Speed. The maximum number of Esoteries (spells) would be about two (Mystical-desription+right Focus) and he couldn't use them as often as any random Nano (because of no Int-Edge and low Int-pool).

Of course, the reverse is also true. No Nano could ever out-fight or out-muscle a Glaive in the long run, no matter how hard he tried. So, if you want to be athletic or warrior-like, you need to be a Glaive. If you want to be intellectual or wizard-like, you need to be a Nano. If you want to mix these a bit, you need to be a Jack or you can't do anything well. Do note that I have no problem with this. It just means that the Type is exactly like Class in DnD. It defines your character's mechanical abilities more than any other factor, ie. no Fighter can really be known as a loremaster if there's a decent Wizard in the party.

In short, I think that in RPGs a character is defined by the "sum" of their abilities and they should be in line with the backstory and personality you came up with. So, in Numenera, if I decided that my character should be, among other things, really intelligent, making a Glaive would be right out. Doubly so if I wanted him to be a numenera-expert.

In a nutshell: Make no mistake, Numenera is your basic class based RPG, with a few twists here and there.

Wow hold up...

I'm not sure how to argue this...

Firstly making a really "smart" character does not require you putting any additional points into your intellect pool. Your intellect pool is more of a mental endurance stat rather then a direct indication of your characters IQ.

Firstly lets take your example; A Glaive who is smart and good with Numenera (see ancient technology.)

You are correct that the Glaive part of your character wont give you much in the way to aid the smart part of your concept.

But if you pick the descriptor;

Intelligent;

+2 to intellect pool
Knowledge skill (lets pick Numenera because of your concept).
Skill: trained in all actions that involve remembering or memorizing things.

Or alternatively you could go with Learned;
+2 to to intellect pool
trained in three knowledge skills. So Numenera and two others)
Inability: - to social interaction
Eaxtra gear: Two books on topics of your choosing, (lets make one of these on Numenera or we could make them both on more specific types of Numenera.)

So with ether of those descriptors you are Trained with dealing with ancient technology.

If you picked Learned and had time to make use of your books you could remove and additional difficulty level from tasks involving knowledge of Numenera.

Then if you wanted to go deeper into your knowledge of Numenera we can look at the Focus.

You could go with something like "Talks to Machines"

Which would give you;
Machine affinity:You are trained in all tasks
involving electrical machines. Enabler.

Distant Activation (1 int): You can activate or deactivate any machine you can see
within short range, even if normally you would have
to touch or manually operate the device. To use
this ability, you must understand the function of
the machine, it must be your size or smaller, and
it can’t be connected to another intelligence (or be
intelligent itself). Action.

Or the focus Crafts Unique Objects which at tier one gives you;

Master Identifier: You are trained in identifying the
function of any kind of device. Enabler.

You are over estimating the importance of Int pool and edge.

Having a larger pool and a higher edge simply means you are able to apply effort to a task more times with out resting. It does not mean you are by definition more intelligent. So theoretically a Nano at creation would be able to perform more Knowledge Numenera rolls with expended effort per day then a starting Glaive. But in saying that, Nanos require their int pool for other things like casting estories where as a Glavie could devote there entire pool to knowledge tasks and utilize their might and speed for combat.

Would your Glaive be the strongest Glaive in combat - unlikely.


So how about some examples:

Tier one Knowledgeable Glaive who Crafts Unique Objects.

VS a L5 Numenera Base TN 15

Skill bonus - Knowledge Numenera
Skill Bonus - Master Identifier
Item bonus - Book
Effort level 1 - Cost 3 int

Final task Difficulty: 1 - TN 3

Now lets look at a T1 Knowledgeable Nano who Crafts Unique Objects.

Skill bonus - Knowledge Numenera
Skill Bonus - Master Identifier
Item bonus - Book
Effort level 1 - Cost 2 int

Final task Difficulty: 1 - TN 3

They look pretty damn similar. The only major difference is that the Nano likely has a bigger int pool and a higher int edge so she could likely expend effort on a task such as this more times per day.
In saying that the Nano has a lot more need for her int pool where as the Glaive not so much.

I could break it down further but i dont have the time right now.

TLDR:

In short, I think that in RPGs a character is defined by the "sum" of their abilities and they should be in line with the backstory and personality you came up with. So, in Numenera, if I decided that my character should be, among other things, really intelligent, making a Glaive would be right out. Doubly so if I wanted him to be a numenera-expert.

With all due respect i find your above statement to be false.

[Raimun]

Few things:

1) Mental endurance (Pool+Edge) is important if you want your character to be smart. Sure, you could just keep the pool as "mental HP" but the game kind of requires you to use the pool to overcome challenges. Starting "Smart Glaive" could do this at the most 5 times a day. Most Nanos could easily double this. They'd also reach the critical Int-Edge of 3 faster.

2) I'm not too sure you can add two skills together like that. I think there was once an issue like that and GM ruled against it. The skill system is so vague that results may vary.

3) "Smart Glaive" would be so use-impaired it wouldn't be funny. He might try to keep up with the party's nano but would fall always behind. Granted, you proved that he could make rolls as well as a Nano, if not as often. Still, in combat he would not have much to do and would fall apart pretty quickly. If Glaive does his best to boost Int-Edge and Pool (not to mention picking Desciptor and Focus) to keep up with Nanos, he would not be able to use Fighting Moves or boost attack/defense rolls that much, unless he wants to get killed by two or three good hits. He wouldn't even have the best defense Nanos have, Ie. a Glaive to hide behind.

With all respect, I find that my statement is correct and Numenera is a class based game, even if the term "class" is not used even once.

[Kaun]

Few things:

1) Mental endurance (Pool+Edge) is important if you want your character to be smart. Sure, you could just keep the pool as "mental HP" but the game kind of requires you to use the pool to overcome challenges. Starting "Smart Glaive" could do this at the most 5 times a day. Most Nanos could easily double this. They'd also reach the critical Int-Edge of 3 faster.

It is useful yes, but not critical. Its only sort of required for Difficulty level 7 and above tasks. Yes the Nano will be able to exert effort in Int tasks more times a day. In some situations that may be a considerable benefits but that all comes down to how often the Glaive will need to use effort in int tasks with out time for a decent rest period.

Yes nano's can reach max Int-edge before Glaive's

Nanos can hit it at Tier 2.25 where Glaive's can it it at Tier 3.25

Whether or not reaching Int Edge 3 is deemed necessary for the Glaive comes down to the player.

2) I'm not too sure you can add two skills together like that. I think there was once an issue like that and GM ruled against it. The skill system is so vague that results may vary.

This can be a grey zone yes. As you state the skill system is vague. There seems is a general consensuses that if you receive a general skill in character creation that over laps a specific skill, then the specific skill counts as specialized. Seeing as it is closer to a house rule rather then RAW it seems fair to ignore the specialist skill bonus for my previous example.

3) "Smart Glaive" would be so use-impaired it wouldn't be funny. He might try to keep up with the party's nano but would fall always behind. Granted, you proved that he could make rolls as well as a Nano, if not as often. Still, in combat he would not have much to do and would fall apart pretty quickly. If Glaive does his best to boost Int-Edge and Pool (not to mention picking Desciptor and Focus) to keep up with Nanos, he would not be able to use Fighting Moves or boost attack/defense rolls that much, unless he wants to get killed by two or three good hits. He wouldn't even have the best defense Nanos have, Ie. a Glaive to hide behind.

The Glaive would still be a competent combatant. He would still be gaining training in weapons and fighting moves.

If i was intending to play a Numenera lore focused Glaive i wouldn't sink to much into Int pool and edge anyway because i don't believe it would be needed. Honestly i probably wouldn't use my Focus on it either unless i particularly liked the concept.

At Tier 1.25 i could specialize in Numenera if i had chosen the Smart or Learned descriptor. With a starting Int pool of 10 (1 from the 6 to spread, 2 from Descriptor added to the base of 7) i could make three effort rolls from my int pool a day (give or take depending on rest time) and i could add to my int pool/edge later if i felt it were necessary.

That would leave me the Focus to bolster my character as a saw fit.

If anything i would say characters in Numenera benefit more from having a variety of abilities and skills to call on rather then just focusing on one or two key areas.

With all respect, I find that my statement is correct and Numenera is a class based game, even if the term "class" is not used even once.

Call it as you see it i guess.

[Gamgee]

New Numenera adventure. 22 pages. "Beyond All Worlds". Recommended for tier 2 or higher characters. Only available at monte cooks site, though I would assume it would be on drivethru soon.