Bleach IX: This isn't even my final thread!

[Codyage]

New Chapter!:

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All hail Kenpachi, omnipotent Soul Reaper. He survives being surrounded in a bubble of Outer Space, survives being Death Star Exploded, and then...then...

Okay, here is my read on what happened Gremmy tried to imagine himself as stronger then Kenpachi. This is LITERALLY an impossibility, something so impossible taht simply trying to imagine it BLEW GREMMY UP. And thus he dies like a punk as expected.

Also, Kubo what the CHRIST is wrong with you. When did you start looking at super dark metal album covers for art inspiration. This is the second dude to have rps and bones and guts spilling out of him.

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I interpreted more as, he wanted to imagine himself stronger then Kenpachi, by imagining himself as a stronger Kenpachi, but because he imagined himself as Kenpachi, he killed himself, because Kenpachi wanted to beat Gremmy.

That, or because he called Kenpachi a monster, he imagined him as one, and because he wanted to be a stronger monster, he became a monster, and the monster killed him.

I think he may still be alive though, until we see Bach get a power up or comment on it, Gremmy is probably still around.

[ben-zayb]

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*sighs* Anyone who's incompetent enough to waste such amazing power and had even some trouble with something of Kenpachi's power set deserves to get their ass kicked like this. (Of course, this is Kubo so that's just par for the course)


The good news is we're moving on. Whether that means last resort resurrection or next battle, it's ok just to stay away from this disgusting fight.

[danzibr]

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I actually really liked this chapter.

But right... Gremmy dying and Bach getting that power back... that'll be scary for Ichigo to fight.

[Fjolnir]

I already said earlier anyone who utilizes imagination as a superpower immediately loses the second the concept of failure comes into his head, no matter how fleeting.

[Rater202]

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The translation I read said something about Gremmy imagining that he was stronger than Kenpachi.

It also said that this is the first time since he was born that he wanted to win.

So, he want's to win sobadly that he isn't thinking strait when he imagins himself stronger than Kenpachi, or maybe just didn't realise just how strong that would be.

Going from Child Sized to Kenpachi tall with comparable Musclemass torn his body in pieces, and raising his spiritual power higher than Kenpachi's meant it was too strong for him to control, so when he realized his mistake he couldn't imagine himself in one piece again and died

[Hadrian_Emrys]

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*snort* Lil G pulled a 'Scar' on his dumb self. I got an eye-roll and a laugh from this chapter. Moving on.

[Olinser]

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The translation I read said something about Gremmy imagining that he was stronger than Kenpachi.

It also said that this is the first time since he was born that he wanted to win.

So, he want's to win sobadly that he isn't thinking strait when he imagins himself stronger than Kenpachi, or maybe just didn't realise just how strong that would be.

Going from Child Sized to Kenpachi tall with comparable Musclemass torn his body in pieces, and raising his spiritual power higher than Kenpachi's meant it was too strong for him to control, so when he realized his mistake he couldn't imagine himself in one piece again and died

I think it's more like what started to happen earlier in the fight.

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His power is imagination based. It seems like he imagined something like, "what if I actually lose this fight and he kills me?" Which is why Zaraki called him an idiot.

On the whole, I was not particularly impressed with Gremy. Arguably the most broken power in the entire verse, and its given to somebody too stupid and unimaginative (heh heh ) to properly take advantage of it.

[danzibr]

On the whole, I was not particularly impressed with Gremy. Arguably the most broken power in the entire verse, and its given to somebody too stupid and unimaginative (heh heh ) to properly take advantage of it.

I'm sure Yhwach will be much more frightening with it (assuming Kubo doesn't forget he has it).

[Olinser]

I'm sure Yhwach will be much more frightening with it (assuming Kubo doesn't forget he has it).

There has been considerable debate about whether he actually will have their abilities.

The argument stems from the translation of his statement that 'he will reabsorb their powers'.

The question is whether he means powers as in their strength, or their powers, as in, their actual abilities.

Not knowing Japanese myself, I can't comment how the original language reads.

[KnightDisciple]

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I'm generally interpreting the gory bit as Gremmy trying to imagine a way to be physically and spiritually stronger than Kenpachi, coming up with the vague idea of "He's some kind of monster!", and then being unable to consistently visualize what he wants to become. This causes random, out-of-control growth to start, at which point his mind panics and the whole thing spirals out of control.

I'm still not totally sold on how Kenpachi's sword looks, but I can't say it doesn't look like something he'd swing around. Now I'm left wondering if his Bankai is a sword as big as a skyscraper, or if it pulls a Compression like Ichigo does, and to a lesser degree Rukia and Renji do.

[Olinser]

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I'm generally interpreting the gory bit as Gremmy trying to imagine a way to be physically and spiritually stronger than Kenpachi, coming up with the vague idea of "He's some kind of monster!", and then being unable to consistently visualize what he wants to become. This causes random, out-of-control growth to start, at which point his mind panics and the whole thing spirals out of control.

I'm still not totally sold on how Kenpachi's sword looks, but I can't say it doesn't look like something he'd swing around. Now I'm left wondering if his Bankai is a sword as big as a skyscraper, or if it pulls a Compression like Ichigo does, and to a lesser degree Rukia and Renji do.

For his Bankai, Zaraki is going to pull a Fighter from 8-Bit Theatre.

SWORD-CHUCKS, YO

[Rakaydos]

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I totally buy the idea that his sword looks like Ichigo's did when they fought because he absorbed it's power.

[Morph Bark]

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I totally buy the idea that his sword looks like Ichigo's did when they fought because he absorbed it's power.

With that tip it also resembles Ikkaku's bankai somewhat, at least in style. Who are the guys Kenpachi has fought the most/wanted to fight the most? Right.

[ben-zayb]

With that tip it also resembles Ikkaku's bankai somewhat, at least in style. Who are the guys Kenpachi has fought the most/wanted to fight the most? Right.

I think it's a deliberate attempt to stick a Badass BFS on Kenpachi, since the Ikkaku fight was probably the most fun and exciting low-tier battle in HM arc and Kubo wants to recapture that raw, blood-sporty, badass normal feel.

[chainer1216]

oh ikkaku, how i miss you and your ****ty zanpakuto.

[Infernally Clay]

Actually, regarding Zaraki's Shikai... A long time ago, Isshin commented that Shinigami Captains consciously control the size of their Zanpakuto so as to prevent them all walking around with swords the size of skyscrapers. So my theory is that what we're seeing is Zaraki's Zanpakuto given the knowledge that his control over his own reiatsu kinda sucks, so he can't or won't consciously limit its size. It would probably be a lot bigger than it is if it wasn't for that eye patch of his absorbing so much of his reiatsu.

[Rater202]

Actually, regarding Zaraki's Shikai... A long time ago, Isshin commented that Shinigami Captains consciously control the size of their Zanpakuto so as to prevent them all walking around with swords the size of skyscrapers. So my theory is that what we're seeing is Zaraki's Zanpakuto given the knowledge that his control over his own reiatsu kinda sucks, so he can't or won't consciously limit its size. It would probably be a lot bigger than it is if it wasn't for that eye patch of his absorbing so much of his reiatsu.

That only applies to sealed blades(Like Ichigo's first Zanpakuto)

Shikai are more or less set in stone unless the Shinigami gains better under standing of them selves or experiances a radical evolution of powers.

I'm still thinking partiall power copy plus Shapshifting into watever best fits the job(Shapeshifting has to apply, Zaraki is always in shikai. He jsut wan't able to use it's power until now)

[Rakaydos]

(Shapeshifting has to apply, Zaraki is always in shikai. He jsut wan't able to use it's power until now)

I disagree. Whenever someone releases their zampakto to Shikai, it's always "(Verb),(Name of sword)" And then the blade looks different and has cool powers.

"Swallow, Nozarashi."

[Rater202]

I disagree. Whenever someone releases their zampakto to Shikai, it's always "(Verb),(Name of sword)" And then the blade looks different and has cool powers.

"Swallow, Nozarashi."

We got confirmation that Nozarashi was a Constant Release type when Kenpachi was first introduced. He said that his sword didn't get stronger, and later it was used as an example of Constant Release types.

Also, Nit Pick, but one of Urahara's Zanpakuto is released with the Comand "Scream Benihime" but it's energy attack is activated with a Cry of "Sing Benihime"(Note, I might have those comands backwards)

So a Zanpakuto with a secondary release comand to activate one of it's abillities is far from impossible.

[chainer1216]

why should anything zaraki said back then be taken as truth? he's kind of a moron. to him a sword is a sword, his didn't have a name, or a power, it was just a sword, and as far as he cared it didn't have any other forms, also why are you assuming shikai is a zanpacuto's true form? thats pretty odd, why not bankai? but no, thats still wrong we KNOW what a swords true form is, its a person, we learned this not that long ago.

[Rater202]

why should anything zaraki said back then be taken as truth? he's kind of a moron. to him a sword is a sword, his didn't have a name, or a power, it was just a sword, and as far as he cared it didn't have any other forms, also why are you assuming shikai is a zanpacuto's true form? thats pretty odd, why not bankai? but no, thats still wrong we KNOW what a swords true form is, its a person, we learned this not that long ago.

The fact that Zaraki's sword was used as an example when Yorouichi(Spelling?) explained what a Constant Release type was is pretty solid evidence that Zaraki's sword was in Shikai, even before he knew it's name.

Now, please tell me exactly when I refered to Shikai as the true form of a Zanpakuto. I don't remember doing so, and I can't seem to finds a place where I did.

I said that the "If Captain Class Shinigami couldn't control their Reiatsu, then they'd be swinging around Skyscrapers" thing only appies to a sealed blade(This is further, though unnecessary, evidence of Zaraki being a Constant Release type)

Remember how Ichigo's Zanpakuto was way too big before he Learned it's name, and was consequentially a very soft metal becasue it wasn't focued.

And how the soft metal thing went away after he used his (possibly false) Shikai?

That was becasue is uncontrolled power bloated the blade

[chainer1216]

right, but you did say "We got confirmation that Nozarashi was a Constant Release type when Kenpachi was first introduced. He said that his sword didn't get stronger" which was referring to, as posted earlier in this thread, the last time this was brought up, when kenchan said "there is no other form, this is the true form of my zanpakuto" and in order for that statement to back up your opinion, it needs to mean that a shikai is a zanpakuto's true form.

also:
"And how the soft metal thing went away after he used his (possibly false) Shikai?"

no, no it didn't, zaraki stabbed ichigo, in the chest, right through that sword, and then gave a speech about how ichigo needs to not let his reiatsu relax.

[Mato]

We got confirmation that Nozarashi was a Constant Release type when Kenpachi was first introduced. Prior to the dozens of story recons Tite has performed over the years so it may not hold up.

Also, Nit Pick, but one of Urahara's Zanpakuto is released with the Comand "Scream Benihime" but it's energy attack is activated with a Cry of "Sing Benihime"(Note, I might have those comands backwards)

Rater rater rater, /e sigh.

Benihime's command is Awaken. "Sing Benihime" is the name of the red wave of energy attack which the English dub refers to as "Scream Benihime". A simple google search glance will confirm this with little effort. The wiki further states "Kamisori (razor), Benihime", "Tsuppane (spurning), Benihime", and "Shibari (binding), Benihime" are the name of his other off screen entry attacks.

[Rater202]

Rater rater rater, /e sigh.

Benihime's command is Awaken. "Sing Benihime" is the name of the red wave of energy attack which the English dub refers to as "Scream Benihime". A simple google search glance will confirm this with little effort. The wiki further states "Kamisori (razor), Benihime", "Tsuppane (spurning), Benihime", and "Shibari (binding), Benihime" are the name of his other off screen entry attacks.

You word that as though my Error in any way invalidates the point I was making.

[Mato]

You word that as though my Error in any way invalidates the point I was making.

I word that in a way to remind you what was said seven years ago in a material full of recons may or may not be fractal.

Ichigo and Kenpachi were both claimed to be "constant release" types. However in the recent arc things have changed. Ichigo wasn't using a "normal" Zanbakto or his true Shiki and Kenpachi by sheer definition and recent events never had access to his Shiki until now. Now take this claim

The fact that Zaraki's sword was used as an example when Yorouichi(Spelling?) explained what a Constant Release type was is pretty solid evidence that Zaraki's sword was in Shikai, even before he knew it's name.

And glance at the Chapter 573.

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His sword remains identical to his introduction, same hilt, guard, chipped blade style. Except we know for a fact Kenpachi has access to and is not using his Shiki.

"Constant Release" at this point does not refer to using your Shiki, maybe you can call it improperly sealing it in a standardized near-katana form. But every non-NPC sealed Zanbakto is different. The hilts, wrapping, guards greatly very between each. Some don't even appear as a katana such as Sui-Feng's short sword or Shunsui's Daisho set. The real question to ask, is "constant release" a common and widely applicable term, or a depreciated to the point of being a meaningless term these days? Either way, please read the manga before arguing in these threads.

[danzibr]

I get the feeling Kubo just messed up.

Ichigo (let's pretend he had his real Zanpakutou all along) had a constant release Shikai, but it really was his Shikai. He did Getsuga Tenshou, his Shikai ability, while in its usual, constant release form.

But not so for Kenpachi. He went Shikai, and his sword totally changed. Unless it's secretly his Bankai.

The problem is... Ichigo's sword details are all messed up. Do we have a third example of a Zanpakutou stated to be constant release?

[Rater202]

From Bleach Wiki(Mato uses it as a source, so I get to as well)

Shikai: Its release command is Drink (呑め, nome).[161] Even before Kenpachi knew its name, Nozarashi was constantly in its released state, due instead to Kenpachi's overwhelming reiatsu forcing the release.[162] He obtained this state while still a child.[163] The blade is much longer than a standard Zanpakutō's, roughly the size of a nodachi, with a guard which extends inward from its center, similar to a shinai. The hilt is white, though most of it is wrapped in bandages, as is his sword's sheath. Despite constantly being in Shikai, Kenpachi's Zanpakutō does not grant him any additional abilities, due to their lack of communication.[164] Their disharmony leaves his Zanpakutō with little spiritual energy and lets it become easier to damage, ironically making its appearance a reflection of Kenpachi's own practice of weakening himself to fight others on an even level; it is a chipped and seemingly worn-down blade. Despite its appearance, it can easily cut through most objects: with it, Kenpachi stabs straight through Ichigo's Zanpakutō, and later slices a building in half with no apparent effort after releasing his full power. However, upon Kenpachi calling out its release command, Nozarashi transforms into a huge axe with a long, cloth-wrapped handle and a tassel attached to the top. In this form, it is powerful enough to destroy a huge meteorite with a single blow.[165]

Emphasis mine.

I'd like to point out that we have an example of a Zanpakuto having Abillities that require it's name to be said while it's already in Shikai(Benihime)

We also have an Example of a Zanpakuto being much weaker when it's Shikai is activated withthe Wrong Name(Yummichika's Shikai)

Now, what's more Llikely, that Kenpachi was seeled the whole time, somehow didn't have a Skyscraper Sized blade despite his crappy control and imense power, and that an expert Shinigami was Mistaken about it being a Constant Release type, Or that Zaraki has Always been in Shikai, but couldn't use it's abillities becasue he didn't know his blades name?

Two Options

1: Nozarashi either posses Shapeshifitng Abillities, and "Drink*" is the comand to activate them(Like "Verb* Benihime" is used to Activate Benihime's Shikai abilities)

Or

2: Not Knowing it's name led to Nozarashii having a "False shikai", Like Yumichika's blade, and since Zaraki is in a Constant Relase, he forces Nazaroshi back into that Falsh Shikai state becasue Nozarashi's true Shikai is too damn Big to hall around all the time(This would be, functionally Identical to havind a Seeled State, but the distinction is important)

[Infernally Clay]

I get the feeling Kubo just messed up.

Ichigo (let's pretend he had his real Zanpakutou all along) had a constant release Shikai, but it really was his Shikai. He did Getsuga Tenshou, his Shikai ability, while in its usual, constant release form.

But not so for Kenpachi. He went Shikai, and his sword totally changed. Unless it's secretly his Bankai.

The problem is... Ichigo's sword details are all messed up. Do we have a third example of a Zanpakutou stated to be constant release?

My interpretation is that Ichigo's Shikai and Zaraki's Shikai are the same - constant released due to their overwhelming reiatsu yet affording them no special abilities because they do not have any connection to their Zanpakuto Spirit. In Zaraki's case, he never tried to talk to his Zanpakuto Spirit for obvious reasons while Ichigo never got to connect with Zangetsu because the manifestation of his Quincy powers intentionally stopped him from doing that.

We already know Getsuga Tensho isn't Ichigo's Shikai ability since Isshin could use it with his sealed Zanpakuto and the Final Getsuga Tensho is a thing. That implies that Getsuga Tensho is a Shiba technique rather than something unique to Ichigo. So with the revelation that the manifestation we thought was Zangetsu actually wasn't, it seems Ichigo and Zaraki were in the same boat - their reiatsu and lack of control meant their Zanpakuto were always in Shikai form but they never received any power from it.

Ichigo always knew Zangetsu's name yet, due to his Quincy powers, his Shikai never did anything and even his Bankai never really did anything special. Increased speed is great an' all but considering what Bankai usually do it was kinda rubbish. Zaraki never knew Nozarashi's name, though, because he never tried talking to his Zanpakuto Spirit. He was oblivious to that aspect of his power because, of course, he was never interested in becoming stronger.

So even due to their differing situations, Zaraki and Ichigo were in the same boat all along - and now they both awoke their true Zanpakuto. The only difference is that Ichigo already knows Bankai and is presumably a lot stronger than Zaraki to boot.

edit ;; Although the interesting thing is that Zaraki's Zanpakuto is no longer constantly released. What was his incomplete Shikai is now his Zanpakuto's sealed form, whereas Ichigo's Zanpakuto is still constantly released yet has a new form. That either reinforces Ichigo's uniqueness or implies his reiatsu control still isn't good enough to seal his Zanpakuto's powers away (whereas Zaraki's obviously is).

[Rakaydos]

You're bending over backward to try and force his weapon to fit an offhand remark back in the 2nd story arc. As you said, it's for all intents and purposes a regular blade that now has a Shikai form. There's no need to go any furthur than that. Things change. this is one of them

[Rater202]

My interpretation is that Ichigo's Shikai and Zaraki's Shikai are the same - constant released due to their overwhelming reiatsu yet affording them no special abilities because they do not have any connection to their Zanpakuto Spirit. In Zaraki's case, he never tried to talk to his Zanpakuto Spirit for obvious reasons while Ichigo never got to connect with Zangetsu because the manifestation of his Quincy powers intentionally stopped him from doing that.

We already know Getsuga Tensho isn't Ichigo's Shikai ability since Isshin could use it with his sealed Zanpakuto and the Final Getsuga Tensho is a thing. That implies that Getsuga Tensho is a Shiba technique rather than something unique to Ichigo. So with the revelation that the manifestation we thought was Zangetsu actually wasn't, it seems Ichigo and Zaraki were in the same boat - their reiatsu and lack of control meant their Zanpakuto were always in Shikai form but they never received any power from it.

Ichigo always knew Zangetsu's name yet, due to his Quincy powers, his Shikai never did anything and even his Bankai never really did anything special. Increased speed is great an' all but considering what Bankai usually do it was kinda rubbish. Zaraki never knew Nozarashi's name, though, because he never tried talking to his Zanpakuto Spirit. He was oblivious to that aspect of his power because, of course, he was never interested in becoming stronger.

So even due to their differing situations, Zaraki and Ichigo were in the same boat all along - and now they both awoke their true Zanpakuto. The only difference is that Ichigo already knows Bankai and is presumably a lot stronger than Zaraki to boot.

Getsuga Tensho being a Shiba Technique doesn't make sense when one considers that at least two members of The Shiba Clan have become high Ranking Shinigami, somebody probably should have been questioning that once he actually used it and Called it by name.

IIRC, when Byakuya first heard the Name, he comented on it being an arrogant name(Heaven Pircing Moon Fang, if memeory serves), not saying "Impossible, how could a human posses the Techniques of the Shiba clan?" or somethin to that effect.

Since being a Shinigami is something that can be inherited, it might be possible that certain powers themselves can be inherited.

Also, nitpick, but The Old Man's exact words were that he was supressing Zangetsu and Channeling Ichigo's Shinigami Power through himself, So Ichigo's Fake Zanpakuto was probably a "real" Shikai and Bankai, just not Ichigo's True Shikai and Bankai