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2014-04-09, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
Straw argument. The only known templates with variable LA are Multiheaded and Mirage Mullah. The first have it for obvious reason, the second is dysfunctional
Actually, Hades have two types of petitioners, not just Larvae... And equaling Mane to Petitioner (Abyss) doesn't work, because in D&D template often not reflect to well creature which it supposed to model. Anyway, Mane is race, petitioner is template. Different rules. Like for half-fiend and cambion.
Einherjar - you get it wrong. It's not give 10 levels for free, you need to be 10th level to get it. And at 10th level, Div. rank 0 is not too impressive, unless you fight gods
Asgardian Giant is not a template at all, just variant
Wendigo have LA +4
and Yellow Musk Zombie is mindless and live about one month
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2014-04-09, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
...why?
Larvae and Manes are the ones with no planar commitment, though, and thus the ones that the stats are for.
No, I got it right, since that was precisely what I said.
Considering that it's something Dragons can only get with 12 levels of an otherwise useless prestige class, the rules seem to disagree with you.
A variant that, according to you, does not have any extra LA.
Just the sample one.
Which is why they should have LA --. But according to you, they have LA +0.Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
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2014-04-09, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
Why should it be la-? The template doesn't say they change the la of the base creature , so there's no rules reason it should take you from la:something to la - (as per rules quoted earlier). I agree, it's stupid as heck (given how being a musk zombie is shooting yourself in the foot with a grenade launcher), but it is what it is. And just to point out precedence for things that can't take class levels being playable, the hairy spider is outright mindless, but had an la of +0.
Avatar by TinyMushroom.
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2014-04-09, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
Should not in the mathematical sense, but in the playability sense. In order to have a level adjustment system that is playable in all cases, Yellow Musk Zombie should have LA --. Thus any interpretation that gives Yellow Musk Zombie LA +0 is unusable and should not be suggested in threads where people are asking for advice for actual games.
Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
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2014-04-09, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
from the srd
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statisticsNo spoilers in this signature.
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2014-04-09, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
Because of Oasis Dependent. What's the point to have playable LA, if you can't abandon the Fey Oasis without being dead or crippled for life (-1 to Str, Con, and Cha? Ouch!..) And, even if you survive it, you lose the template. The only apparent uses of this template for PC is if: 1) Whole adventure happened withing the very same oasis, or 2) Mirage Mullah carry the Fey Oasis around with him
Please, check the Tier System for PrC. How many Bad and Catastrophic tiers? So one more bad PrC is nothing to be surprised. (And Draconomicon PrCs intended-for-thrue-dragons are infamous for their low quality. Even those of them whith actually decent CFs, have crippling prerequisites. Maybe, there is some exception or two, bt still...) And abilities from DvR 0 are hardly game-shattering at level 10. What's it can give, which you can't get from party's buffer or good old Christmas Tree effect? Only immunity to certain SDAs...
A variant of creature is still a creature, so rules for template not applicable
You suggest Wendigo is LA +0, and +4 is from somewhere else? Come on, name me non-templated non-outsider with LA +4 and without racial HD
Maybe it's planned for rare cases when PC actually afflicted with YMC? If party's druid still doesn't high-level enough to cast Heal, he can cast Command Plants...Last edited by ShurikVch; 2014-04-09 at 03:59 PM.
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2014-04-09, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
Here's the thing: by your logic, Petitioners have LA +0 regardless of whether they have Planar Commitment. So you don't actually think this is dysfunctional, and your attempts to reject it as an example are disingenuous and can be ignored for the purposes of this discussion.
DR anything/epic is dysfunctional ten levels before anyone gets epic weapons, no matter how low the actual DR number. Similarly, SR 32 is not exactly trivial for a 10th level character.
I'll concede this one, as long as you concede it also applies to Sovereign Archetypes.
Since the Mirage Mullah example still stands, we can consider that. Or the fact that example characters are not rules text. But regardless,
At which point the player is no longer playing the PC. I don't think a situation in which one is not played makes one suitable to be played.Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
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2014-04-09, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
Yes. However, there's a difference between adding a template with la- (not suitable) and not stated, thanks to this:
Originally Posted by SRD
Not la +0, la as base creature. What's wrong with having yellow musk zombies being playable? They aren't mindless (int2, not -), though one of their traits copies the main downside of such. However, dragonborn would get rid of that trait, allowing them to continue on using their class levels, feats, and skills. Sure, it would suck for anyone, but its possible. Heck, even free them of that annoying tree creeper loyalty.Avatar by TinyMushroom.
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2014-04-09, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
you are reading the improving monsters with templates. You need to read the monsters as races where it says:
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics.
Ill quote the texts since you only bother to quote parts of it.
Starting Level of a Monster PC
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Humanoids and Class Levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.
Reading A Template
A template’s description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature. The changes that a template might cause to each line of a creature’s statistics block are discussed below. Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature."No spoilers in this signature.
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2014-04-09, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Bellona
Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
The argument that templates without a listed LA are always LA +0 is so dang suspect, I find it hard to believe people actually argue it with a straight face. It's a combination of poor editing and improper conversion between 3.0 and 3.5; old templates that lacked an LA because they were not intended as player options weren't always assigned "LA --" in the update booklets, which were notoriously rushed and incomplete. If the default assumption was to consider any templates without a listed LA as LA +0, then what would be the point of having LA +0 in the first place? Why would templates bother listing it at all?
But instead of taking the remotely reasonable thought that an unlisted LA puts a template in that grey "ask your DM" category, there are constantly people who try to argue it as legitimate. Never mind the fact that most of what is suggested is way out of line compared to other expressly kosher LA +0 templates, like amphibious or primordial giant. Taking an editing mistake and holding it up as holy writ makes about as much sense to me as insisting that the Vigilante class gets 33 third level spells per day.Last edited by Piggy Knowles; 2014-04-09 at 06:40 PM.
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2014-04-13, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
Oasis is rather restricted space. Plane can be more than infinite (because it composed of multiple layers, some of which are infinite). Nothing wrong to have a whole adventure path "1to20" at the same Outer Plane.
Force Bow. Axe of Molydeus. Mantle of Pure Spite. All of this allow to flat out ignore any DR, period. Also, at level 10 in melee DR 10 is barely a speed bump. And SR... Come on! Who in their right mind rely on SR? If 1st level character can overcome SR ∞, than what's the point to complain about PC with it?
It's RAW. Say, most of templates don't list speed. Does it mean templated creature have "Speed: -"
Underdark is a 3.5 book. Arachnoid Creature is a template without listed LA. Deal with it! Indeed! If the default assumption was to consider any templates without a listed LA as "LA --", then what would be the point of having "LA --" in the first place? Why would templates bother listing it at all?
Isn't it supposed to be ask DM about any and all templates, races, feats, classes and spells?
Well known fact: some templates are strait better then other of the same LA value. For LA +1 it's Half-Minotaur, Lolth-Touched and Mineral Warrior. For +2 it's Saint and Phrenic Creature. Why the +0 can't have it's one undiscovered gems?
Oh, editing mistakes... OK, let's start. Vampire's LA +8 is clearly an editing mistake - sample vampire have only +5. Do I need to continue?..
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2014-04-13, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-04-13, 03:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Sovereign State of Denial
Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
Well, yellow musk zombies are unplayable because they're under the control of a creeper, not because of their LA.
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2014-04-13, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
A dragonborn musk zombie would lose the trait that puts it under control of the creeper.
Also, voidmind creatures are similarly under the control of a trio of illithids, but are actually given an la of +3 (though technically, their immune to it due to immune to mind-effecting.)Avatar by TinyMushroom.
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2014-04-13, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
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2014-04-13, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
The thing is, that is in direct contradiction to what the rules say. But the rules includes Drown Healing.
I'm not saying you're wrong, that it should be LA--, but it often comes up where the system writers mastery is not what it should be (Ride by attack?) and they forget what they are actually writing; look at how poorly written Lycantrhopy is for example as well.
I'm not a fan of saying 'ah well, rule zero will sort it out' but in this instance, it applies especially. Similar to preventing Pun Pun and Droan Healing.
@Necroticplague the problem with dragonborn is its fluff prereqs which are fairly hefty for something lacking the free will to dedicate itself to it.Last edited by Vaz; 2014-04-13 at 05:18 PM.
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2014-04-13, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
Avatar by TinyMushroom.
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2014-04-13, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
Or indeed, in the same Oasis. But anyway, this was a silly argument to get into, since the dysfunction in location has nothing to do with why the LA varies, and the template also lists a (different) CR so it's not just a misprint. Variable LA is clearly within the design space.
And are thus irrelevant, since they would apply the same way to DR 10/-.
Likewise.
Every defense can be overcome. That doesn't mean that good defenses are meaningless.
Text before table, dahlink. If you want to be Curmudgeonesquely RAW-anal, you have to talk the talk.Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
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2014-04-13, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
Yellow musk zombies always act to protect and nurture the yellow musk creeper that created them
And again;
Same as the base creature, except that the yellow musk zombie has an Intelligence of 2
I'd posit; No.
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2014-04-13, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
Because those two goals don't have to conflict. You can destroy the spawn of Tiamat in order to protect the vine. If an area is rife with such spawn whose goals appear that of the creeper's, having some spawn devoted to such would even be sensible.
Yes, given that faith is not represented by intelligence. Given the precedence set by classes that actually ask their god for power, like clerics and paladins, have the power of faith being a combination of charisma and wisdom, which go conviniently left at human levels.Avatar by TinyMushroom.
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2014-04-13, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
It's animal intelligence though. YMZ's have Int 2.
An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has scores of at least 3.
I'm fairly sure as well that its considered unplayable if Int is <3, although I cannot remember where that quote is.
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2014-04-14, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
Well, the quote about having enough intelligence to be playable comes from the template rules itself, if thats what you're looking for.
Originally Posted by srdAvatar by TinyMushroom.
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2014-04-14, 05:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
The ritual takes 48 hours IIRC to complete; and you live for an average of 60 hours post freedom. Before then, you are limited to looking after your mother plant; and dedicating yourself to a fight against a Deity when you have no concept of what that deity is/what a deity is, is not going to haopen.
So you have 12 hours average to travel far enough and earn enough experience to gain between 1 and 4 HD that you will increase in intelligence natively, and then understand the concept of what Tiamat is and why it is you who must answer Bahamuts calling and become a Dragonborn, then craft your egg and begin the 2 day ritual.
If that is what you call "playable", and "dragonborn qualifiable" feel free.
One of the many things people forget are the Fluff restrictions within the text. It is why Paragnostic Assembly doesn't help with Truenaming Checks in the optimization idea for example.Last edited by Vaz; 2014-04-14 at 05:38 AM.
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2014-04-14, 05:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession
Avatar by TinyMushroom.