(3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

[ShurikVch]

That. And by ELH, specific combinations have specific values for LA, which tells you nothing about the general case, especially since example characters are notoriously messed up.

Straw argument. The only known templates with variable LA are Multiheaded and Mirage Mullah. The first have it for obvious reason, the second is dysfunctional

But that's a silly debate to get into in its own right. And let's leave aside the fact that, regardless, Abyssal exceptional petitioners are Manes, which are no longer a template as of FCI, and Hades exceptional petitioners are Larvae, which...actually, doing this sort of thing with a Larva would be kind of cool, but anyway...

Actually, Hades have two types of petitioners, not just Larvae... And equaling Mane to Petitioner (Abyss) doesn't work, because in D&D template often not reflect to well creature which it supposed to model. Anyway, Mane is race, petitioner is template. Different rules. Like for half-fiend and cambion.

Just for fun, let's list a few templates that are LA +0 under your ruling. I'm not going and seeking out especially bad ones, just going through the update booklet and picking everything that didn't get an LA attached:

Einherjar (Divine Rank 0 at level 10 for no additional cost? Yes please!)
Asgardian Giant (If you're already playing a Fire or Frost Giant for some reason, again you get Divine Rank 0 for no extra cost.)
Huecuva
Swordwraith
Wendigo
Yellow Musk Zombie
(A point about those four: some templates in the Fiend Folio list an LA, some do not. If your point of view were plausible, the templates that don't list an LA would be those that are the most power-neutral. If my point of view were plausible, they would be those that are unsuitable for players. Which do you think the four templates above are?)

Those are the easiest ones to find, but there should be plenty more in unupdated 3.0 FR books.

Einherjar - you get it wrong. It's not give 10 levels for free, you need to be 10th level to get it. And at 10th level, Div. rank 0 is not too impressive, unless you fight gods
Asgardian Giant is not a template at all, just variant
Wendigo have LA +4
and Yellow Musk Zombie is mindless and live about one month

[Urpriest]

Straw argument. The only known templates with variable LA are Multiheaded and Mirage Mullah. The first have it for obvious reason, the second is dysfunctional

...why?

Actually, Hades have two types of petitioners, not just Larvae... And equaling Mane to Petitioner (Abyss) doesn't work, because in D&D template often not reflect to well creature which it supposed to model. Anyway, Mane is race, petitioner is template. Different rules. Like for half-fiend and cambion.

Larvae and Manes are the ones with no planar commitment, though, and thus the ones that the stats are for.

Einherjar - you get it wrong. It's not give 10 levels for free, you need to be 10th level to get it.

No, I got it right, since that was precisely what I said.

And at 10th level, Div. rank 0 is not too impressive, unless you fight gods

Considering that it's something Dragons can only get with 12 levels of an otherwise useless prestige class, the rules seem to disagree with you.

Asgardian Giant is not a template at all, just variant

A variant that, according to you, does not have any extra LA.

Wendigo have LA +4

Just the sample one.

and Yellow Musk Zombie is mindless and live about one month

Which is why they should have LA --. But according to you, they have LA +0.

[Necroticplague]

Which is why they should have LA --. But according to you, they have LA +0.

Why should it be la-? The template doesn't say they change the la of the base creature , so there's no rules reason it should take you from la:something to la - (as per rules quoted earlier). I agree, it's stupid as heck (given how being a musk zombie is shooting yourself in the foot with a grenade launcher), but it is what it is. And just to point out precedence for things that can't take class levels being playable, the hairy spider is outright mindless, but had an la of +0.

[Urpriest]

Why should it be la-? The template doesn't say they change the la of the base creature , so there's no rules reason it should take you from la:something to la - (as per rules quoted earlier). I agree, it's stupid as heck (given how being a musk zombie is shooting yourself in the foot with a grenade launcher), but it is what it is. And just to point out precedence for things that can't take class levels being playable, the hairy spider is outright mindless, but had an la of +0.

Should not in the mathematical sense, but in the playability sense. In order to have a level adjustment system that is playable in all cases, Yellow Musk Zombie should have LA --. Thus any interpretation that gives Yellow Musk Zombie LA +0 is unusable and should not be suggested in threads where people are asking for advice for actual games.

[Sewercop]

from the srd
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics

so if a template changes the monster and has no la it is not suitable yes?

[ShurikVch]

...why?

Because of Oasis Dependent. What's the point to have playable LA, if you can't abandon the Fey Oasis without being dead or crippled for life (-1 to Str, Con, and Cha? Ouch!..) And, even if you survive it, you lose the template. The only apparent uses of this template for PC is if: 1) Whole adventure happened withing the very same oasis, or 2) Mirage Mullah carry the Fey Oasis around with him

Considering that it's something Dragons can only get with 12 levels of an otherwise useless prestige class, the rules seem to disagree with you.

Please, check the Tier System for PrC. How many Bad and Catastrophic tiers? So one more bad PrC is nothing to be surprised. (And Draconomicon PrCs intended-for-thrue-dragons are infamous for their low quality. Even those of them whith actually decent CFs, have crippling prerequisites. Maybe, there is some exception or two, bt still...) And abilities from DvR 0 are hardly game-shattering at level 10. What's it can give, which you can't get from party's buffer or good old Christmas Tree effect? Only immunity to certain SDAs...

A variant that, according to you, does not have any extra LA.

A variant of creature is still a creature, so rules for template not applicable

Just the sample one.

You suggest Wendigo is LA +0, and +4 is from somewhere else? Come on, name me non-templated non-outsider with LA +4 and without racial HD

Which is why they should have LA --. But according to you, they have LA +0.

Maybe it's planned for rare cases when PC actually afflicted with YMC? If party's druid still doesn't high-level enough to cast Heal, he can cast Command Plants...

[Urpriest]

Because of Oasis Dependent. What's the point to have playable LA, if you can't abandon the Fey Oasis without being dead or crippled for life (-1 to Str, Con, and Cha? Ouch!..) And, even if you survive it, you lose the template. The only apparent uses of this template for PC is if: 1) Whole adventure happened withing the very same oasis, or 2) Mirage Mullah carry the Fey Oasis around with him

Here's the thing: by your logic, Petitioners have LA +0 regardless of whether they have Planar Commitment. So you don't actually think this is dysfunctional, and your attempts to reject it as an example are disingenuous and can be ignored for the purposes of this discussion.

Please, check the Tier System for PrC. How many Bad and Catastrophic tiers? So one more bad PrC is nothing to be surprised. (And Draconomicon PrCs intended-for-thrue-dragons are infamous for their low quality. Even those of them whith actually decent CFs, have crippling prerequisites. Maybe, there is some exception or two, bt still...) And abilities from DvR 0 are hardly game-shattering at level 10. What's it can give, which you can't get from party's buffer or good old Christmas Tree effect? Only immunity to certain SDAs...

DR anything/epic is dysfunctional ten levels before anyone gets epic weapons, no matter how low the actual DR number. Similarly, SR 32 is not exactly trivial for a 10th level character.

A variant of creature is still a creature, so rules for template not applicable

I'll concede this one, as long as you concede it also applies to Sovereign Archetypes.

You suggest Wendigo is LA +0, and +4 is from somewhere else? Come on, name me non-templated non-outsider with LA +4 and without racial HD

Since the Mirage Mullah example still stands, we can consider that. Or the fact that example characters are not rules text. But regardless,

Maybe it's planned for rare cases when PC actually afflicted with YMC? If party's druid still doesn't high-level enough to cast Heal, he can cast Command Plants...

At which point the player is no longer playing the PC. I don't think a situation in which one is not played makes one suitable to be played.

[Necroticplague]

so if a template changes the monster and has no la it is not suitable yes?

Yes. However, there's a difference between adding a template with la- (not suitable) and not stated, thanks to this:

Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description.

So if the "LA:" entry is missing, it does not change the la of the base creature. So adding such a template does not make a creature unsuitable for play.

Should not in the mathematical sense, but in the playability sense. In order to have a level adjustment system that is playable in all cases, Yellow Musk Zombie should have LA --. Thus any interpretation that gives Yellow Musk Zombie LA +0 is unusable and should not be suggested in threads where people are asking for advice for actual games.

Not la +0, la as base creature. What's wrong with having yellow musk zombies being playable? They aren't mindless (int2, not -), though one of their traits copies the main downside of such. However, dragonborn would get rid of that trait, allowing them to continue on using their class levels, feats, and skills. Sure, it would suck for anyone, but its possible. Heck, even free them of that annoying tree creeper loyalty.

[Sewercop]

you are reading the improving monsters with templates. You need to read the monsters as races where it says:
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics.

Ill quote the texts since you only bother to quote parts of it.

Starting Level of a Monster PC
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Humanoids and Class Levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.

now to what you read under improving monsters

Reading A Template
A template’s description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature. The changes that a template might cause to each line of a creature’s statistics block are discussed below. Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature."

you are going to point out that it says level adjustment lower and thats fine.. so nothing means no la, i agree. Because no la means its not for players. Not la 0

[Piggy Knowles]

The argument that templates without a listed LA are always LA +0 is so dang suspect, I find it hard to believe people actually argue it with a straight face. It's a combination of poor editing and improper conversion between 3.0 and 3.5; old templates that lacked an LA because they were not intended as player options weren't always assigned "LA --" in the update booklets, which were notoriously rushed and incomplete. If the default assumption was to consider any templates without a listed LA as LA +0, then what would be the point of having LA +0 in the first place? Why would templates bother listing it at all?

But instead of taking the remotely reasonable thought that an unlisted LA puts a template in that grey "ask your DM" category, there are constantly people who try to argue it as legitimate. Never mind the fact that most of what is suggested is way out of line compared to other expressly kosher LA +0 templates, like amphibious or primordial giant. Taking an editing mistake and holding it up as holy writ makes about as much sense to me as insisting that the Vigilante class gets 33 third level spells per day.

[ShurikVch]

Here's the thing: by your logic, Petitioners have LA +0 regardless of whether they have Planar Commitment. So you don't actually think this is dysfunctional, and your attempts to reject it as an example are disingenuous and can be ignored for the purposes of this discussion.

Oasis is rather restricted space. Plane can be more than infinite (because it composed of multiple layers, some of which are infinite). Nothing wrong to have a whole adventure path "1to20" at the same Outer Plane.

DR anything/epic is dysfunctional ten levels before anyone gets epic weapons, no matter how low the actual DR number. Similarly, SR 32 is not exactly trivial for a 10th level character.

Force Bow. Axe of Molydeus. Mantle of Pure Spite. All of this allow to flat out ignore any DR, period. Also, at level 10 in melee DR 10 is barely a speed bump. And SR... Come on! Who in their right mind rely on SR? If 1st level character can overcome SR ∞, than what's the point to complain about PC with it?

The argument that templates without a listed LA are always LA +0 is so dang suspect, I find it hard to believe people actually argue it with a straight face.

It's RAW. Say, most of templates don't list speed. Does it mean templated creature have "Speed: -"

It's a combination of poor editing and improper conversion between 3.0 and 3.5; old templates that lacked an LA because they were not intended as player options weren't always assigned "LA --" in the update booklets, which were notoriously rushed and incomplete.

Underdark is a 3.5 book. Arachnoid Creature is a template without listed LA. Deal with it!

If the default assumption was to consider any templates without a listed LA as LA +0, then what would be the point of having LA +0 in the first place? Why would templates bother listing it at all?

Indeed! If the default assumption was to consider any templates without a listed LA as "LA --", then what would be the point of having "LA --" in the first place? Why would templates bother listing it at all?

But instead of taking the remotely reasonable thought that an unlisted LA puts a template in that grey "ask your DM" category

Isn't it supposed to be ask DM about any and all templates, races, feats, classes and spells?

Never mind the fact that most of what is suggested is way out of line compared to other expressly kosher LA +0 templates, like amphibious or primordial giant.

Well known fact: some templates are strait better then other of the same LA value. For LA +1 it's Half-Minotaur, Lolth-Touched and Mineral Warrior. For +2 it's Saint and Phrenic Creature. Why the +0 can't have it's one undiscovered gems?

Taking an editing mistake and holding it up as holy writ makes about as much sense to me as insisting that the Vigilante class gets 33 third level spells per day.

Oh, editing mistakes... OK, let's start. Vampire's LA +8 is clearly an editing mistake - sample vampire have only +5. Do I need to continue?..

[Sewercop]

Oh, editing mistakes... OK, let's start. Vampire's LA +8 is clearly an editing mistake - sample vampire have only +5. Do I need to continue?..

Id like you to continue and answer the post i did before this one.

[atemu1234]

Well, yellow musk zombies are unplayable because they're under the control of a creeper, not because of their LA.

[Necroticplague]

Well, yellow musk zombies are unplayable because they're under the control of a creeper, not because of their LA.

A dragonborn musk zombie would lose the trait that puts it under control of the creeper.

Also, voidmind creatures are similarly under the control of a trio of illithids, but are actually given an la of +3 (though technically, their immune to it due to immune to mind-effecting.)

[atemu1234]

Indeed! If the default assumption was to consider any templates without a listed LA as "LA --", then what would be the point of having "LA --" in the first place? Why would templates bother listing it at all?

The same reason some list feats and skills as "same as base creature"?

[Vaz]

Should not in the mathematical sense, but in the playability sense. In order to have a level adjustment system that is playable in all cases, Yellow Musk Zombie should have LA --. Thus any interpretation that gives Yellow Musk Zombie LA +0 is unusable and should not be suggested in threads where people are asking for advice for actual games.

The thing is, that is in direct contradiction to what the rules say. But the rules includes Drown Healing.

I'm not saying you're wrong, that it should be LA--, but it often comes up where the system writers mastery is not what it should be (Ride by attack?) and they forget what they are actually writing; look at how poorly written Lycantrhopy is for example as well.

I'm not a fan of saying 'ah well, rule zero will sort it out' but in this instance, it applies especially. Similar to preventing Pun Pun and Droan Healing.

@Necroticplague the problem with dragonborn is its fluff prereqs which are fairly hefty for something lacking the free will to dedicate itself to it.

[Necroticplague]

@Necroticplague the problem with dragonborn is its fluff prereqs which are fairly hefty for something lacking the free will to dedicate itself to it.

What lack of free will? The zombies aren't mindless, they can still think on their own (if not very well). Serving its parent plant and a god aren't mutually exclusive, though admitedely, the amnesia makes it difficult.

[Urpriest]

Oasis is rather restricted space. Plane can be more than infinite (because it composed of multiple layers, some of which are infinite). Nothing wrong to have a whole adventure path "1to20" at the same Outer Plane.

Or indeed, in the same Oasis. But anyway, this was a silly argument to get into, since the dysfunction in location has nothing to do with why the LA varies, and the template also lists a (different) CR so it's not just a misprint. Variable LA is clearly within the design space.

Force Bow. Axe of Molydeus. Mantle of Pure Spite. All of this allow to flat out ignore any DR, period.

And are thus irrelevant, since they would apply the same way to DR 10/-.

Also, at level 10 in melee DR 10 is barely a speed bump.

Likewise.

And SR... Come on! Who in their right mind rely on SR? If 1st level character can overcome SR ∞, than what's the point to complain about PC with it?

Every defense can be overcome. That doesn't mean that good defenses are meaningless.

Oh, editing mistakes... OK, let's start. Vampire's LA +8 is clearly an editing mistake - sample vampire have only +5. Do I need to continue?..

Text before table, dahlink. If you want to be Curmudgeonesquely RAW-anal, you have to talk the talk.

[Vaz]

Yellow musk zombies always act to protect and nurture the yellow musk creeper that created them

That's the first bit. ALWAYS. How can you dedicate yourself to fighting Tiamat's schemes that being a Dragonborn requires of you, when you're more dedicated to defending the creeper. And this is about qualification; I understand that once you become a Dragonborn, you'd then lose that requirement, but getting to be a Dragonborn in the first place is the problem.

And again;

Same as the base creature, except that the yellow musk zombie has an Intelligence of 2

When you have the same Intelligence as a dog, can you really dedicate yourself to a concept like the destruction of the goals of Intermediate level deity?

I'd posit; No.

[Necroticplague]

That's the first bit. ALWAYS. How can you dedicate yourself to fighting Tiamat's schemes that being a Dragonborn requires of you, when you're more dedicated to defending the creeper. And this is about qualification; I understand that once you become a Dragonborn, you'd then lose that requirement, but getting to be a Dragonborn in the first place is the problem.

And again;


When you have the same Intelligence as a dog, can you really dedicate yourself to a concept like the destruction of the goals of Intermediate level deity?

I'd posit; No.

Because those two goals don't have to conflict. You can destroy the spawn of Tiamat in order to protect the vine. If an area is rife with such spawn whose goals appear that of the creeper's, having some spawn devoted to such would even be sensible.

Yes, given that faith is not represented by intelligence. Given the precedence set by classes that actually ask their god for power, like clerics and paladins, have the power of faith being a combination of charisma and wisdom, which go conviniently left at human levels.

[Vaz]

It's animal intelligence though. YMZ's have Int 2.

An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has scores of at least 3.

PHB.

I'm fairly sure as well that its considered unplayable if Int is <3, although I cannot remember where that quote is.

[Necroticplague]

It's animal intelligence though. YMZ's have Int 2.


PHB.

I'm fairly sure as well that its considered unplayable if Int is <3, although I cannot remember where that quote is.

Well, the quote about having enough intelligence to be playable comes from the template rules itself, if thats what you're looking for.

Level Adjustment

This entry is a modifier to the base creature’s level adjustment. Any level adjustment is meaningless unless the creature retains a high enough Intelligence (minimum 3) to gain class levels after applying the template.

Of course, the INT problem can be taken care of by simply advancing HD until you get a stat point, than put it into intelligence to raise it up to three. Which makes it a less severe problem than for some templates that are given LA, but can end up with INT2 (mineral warrior) or are mindless (Dustform).

[Vaz]

The ritual takes 48 hours IIRC to complete; and you live for an average of 60 hours post freedom. Before then, you are limited to looking after your mother plant; and dedicating yourself to a fight against a Deity when you have no concept of what that deity is/what a deity is, is not going to haopen.

So you have 12 hours average to travel far enough and earn enough experience to gain between 1 and 4 HD that you will increase in intelligence natively, and then understand the concept of what Tiamat is and why it is you who must answer Bahamuts calling and become a Dragonborn, then craft your egg and begin the 2 day ritual.

If that is what you call "playable", and "dragonborn qualifiable" feel free.

One of the many things people forget are the Fluff restrictions within the text. It is why Paragnostic Assembly doesn't help with Truenaming Checks in the optimization idea for example.

[Necroticplague]

The ritual takes 48 hours IIRC to complete; and you live for an average of 60 hours post freedom. Before then, you are limited to looking after your mother plant; and dedicating yourself to a fight against a Deity when you have no concept of what that deity is/what a deity is, is not going to happen.

So you have 12 hours average to travel far enough and earn enough experience to gain between 1 and 4 HD that you will increase in intelligence natively, and then understand the concept of what Tiamat is and why it is you who must answer Bahamuts calling and become a Dragonborn, then craft your egg and begin the 2 day ritual.

If that is what you call "playable", and "dragonborn qualifiable" feel free.

One of the many things people forget are the Fluff restrictions within the text. It is why Paragnostic Assembly doesn't help with Truenaming Checks in the optimizations ideal by the way as well.

Except you don't have to earn the HD for the INT boost while free. You can do that while you serve your plant. Besides, I never said it was likely, or even a good idea, just that it is theoretically possible.