Smash Brothers 4 General

[BeerMug Paladin]

Pokèmon don't have any other options, since the entire focus of the franchise is on the monsters, while the humans have almost no characterization, and don't do anything that could be used for Smash besides use the monsters.

Pokemon Trainer. Any gym master.

That's the thing - most of those possibilities aren't really good ones when you stop to think about it. They're minor characters, ones nobody likes, or just generic enemies. That's why I narrowed the list of options you gave down to Ridley and Kraid: they're the only really logical choices in the bunch.

Whether a possibility is good or bad is a matter of perspective. Personally, I think Chozo Warrior is probably the best option out of those I listed, but I think Adam Malkovich would be more likely. Samus out of her power armor seems like a joke to me, but they added that and came up with something decent for it. Despite that reference being from a minor part of one game that (I heard) everyone hated playing through. But she's a hot chick. (Now with sexy high heels!)

Of those you cited, only Mario and Luigi and Fox and Melee-version Falco are actually very similar. Mario and Luigi deliberately so, since Luigi's whole thing is that he's Mario's more awkward brother, so that we're kind of stuck with. Falco was very similar to Fox in Melee, but got a number of his moves changed in Brawl, so he's now better differentiated (though they could certainly still do more, as the two do still share some moves). Wolf and Lucas only ever shared a few special moves and their Final Smash with Fox and Ness, and were otherwise wholly different. Lucario and Mewtwo are even more so, sharing only one similar move, Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball, and otherwise having nothing in common at all.

I'm a filthy casual player, not a pro player. I found their movesets to be broadly similar enough for me to effectively use very similar strategies while playing as them.

I actually do like the idea of playing as one of the mobile Chozo statues, as impractical as it may be as an actual Smash fighter, though.

Living chozo did look very similar to their statues, supposedly. Making it a chozo warrior robot would be pretty neat too. The idea of playing as one is what makes me enjoy the idea.

Hey, don't be so jaded about Nintendo and them having Zero Suit Samus! They're miles ahead of other companies when it comes to female characters! Give 'em some respect!

Nintendo's not particularly bad about this or particularly good about this. It just seems obvious to me why they depicted the normally sexless character in a sexy way.

I want to be clear, there's nothing wrong with fanservice. I just consider it worthwhile to notice when it's taking place.

[Qwertystop]

Uh, what? Are you sure that's new?

It was always possible with Fox's Landmaster. Not every single platform was close enough, but you could definitely blast them off the top of Battlefield, for instance.

Um, that's not new. All three could do that in Brawl.


It's less that everyone would be a full clone than that everyone would be similar enough for someone to call them that. Broadly speaking, most characters' attacks of the same type serve similar overall functions - jabs are fast forward attacks that can be repeated for three or more hits, down smashes have lower hitboxes and hit on both sides of the character, bairs are fast attacks with strong horizontal knockback, so on and so forth. It's part of the game's basic design, keeping things simple to make the game more accessible.

Huh. Didn't he have a height-cap? I definitely remember trying to fly up and stopping far too low to actually KO.

[Zevox]

Pokemon Trainer. Any gym master.

"[...]and [the humans in Pokèmon] don't do anything that could be used for Smash besides use the monsters." - Me, at the end of the line you quoted before that statement.

Whether a possibility is good or bad is a matter of perspective. Personally, I think Chozo Warrior is probably the best option out of those I listed, but I think Adam Malkovich would be more likely.

I sincerely doubt either would ever even be considered for playability, much less actually made playable, for the reasons I've mentioned before. Especially Adam, given the reception of him and his game. Ridley though seems a perfectly sensible option, one of the very few the series actually has.

I'm a filthy casual player, not a pro player. I found their movesets to be broadly similar enough for me to effectively use very similar strategies while playing as them.

I'm no pro either, but I can certainly pay attention to what their moves are and notice which ones are similar and which ones are different. And for almost all of them, they're just different.

[BeerMug Paladin]

"[...]and [the humans in Pokèmon] don't do anything that could be used for Smash besides use the monsters." - Me, at the end of the line you quoted before that statement.

Doesn't change the fact that they did put Pokemon Trainer in Brawl. And did exactly that with him. They could have easily handled all pokemon this way. Instead they decided to put the non-unique characters in there as selectable choices, despite the fact they are animals and not unique characters.

That was probably a good decision. (Yoshi isn't unique either, come to think of it. They could have made him a powerup.) Smash doesn't follow any kind of sensible in-universe rules for any franchise it pulls from. And it's made better for that reason.

I sincerely doubt either would ever even be considered for playability, much less actually made playable, for the reasons I've mentioned before. Especially Adam, given the reception of him and his game. Ridley though seems a perfectly sensible option, one of the very few the series actually has.

What does popularity beforehand have to do with playability? All that matters is the creativity of the creators. And for the series, they've been doing an excellent job so far.

[Dienekes]

It's less that everyone would be a full clone than that everyone would be similar enough for someone to call them that. Broadly speaking, most characters' attacks of the same type serve similar overall functions - jabs are fast forward attacks that can be repeated for three or more hits, down smashes have lower hitboxes and hit on both sides of the character, bairs are fast attacks with strong horizontal knockback, so on and so forth. It's part of the game's basic design, keeping things simple to make the game more accessible.

Serving the same mechanical function does not mean they're the same. For instance Kirby's areal down smash and Ganons both do the same thing(hurt guy below you as you fall) but the moves are different. One has to be appropriately timed as it's a quick smack, the other increases your weight and is continuous. Links however is similar though he bounces and can get stuck in the ground and whatnot.

To me, those differences in mechanics are far more important than if they both happened to involve a foot. You may disagree, but I find the mechanics are more important to get a distinctive feel for a character and may explain why some find Lucario and Mewtwo similar despite cosmetic differences. Of course it might not, honestly I didn't really play either of them. I'm not a Pokemon guy. I don't know how similar their moves will end up being.

[DaOldeWolf]

That was probably a good decision. (Yoshi isn't unique either, come to think of it. They could have made him a powerup.) Smash doesn't follow any kind of sensible in-universe rules for any franchise it pulls from. And it's made better for that reason.

But the Yoshi are the star in their own spin off games ((the island games)). That should count for something besides being treated as a glorified mount in Mario series.
Right? After all, they have their own icon in smash.

[Rodin]

I think they took Pokemon Trainer out after they realized he was a bad idea. You're naturally going to be best at one of the three Pokemon he summons, and try to stick with that for most of the time. But, there's a mechanic in there that says sticking with one Pokemon will make you progressively worse, which really sucks. If you remove that requirement, well now you just have a 3-in-1 character with no downside other than the lack of a Down B.

It just didn't work very well, from my personal experience at least. Half the game I was stuck playing as a Pokemon I didn't want to play as, instead of rocking it as Charizard. The only complaint I can see with his removal is that only one of the three Pokemon made it back in, but since that one is Charizard I personally ain't complaining.

In terms of franchise selection, it's never really bothered me. I realized that the choices weren't decided very seriously after they put Pichu in Melee just to troll all the players who were butthurt about the heavy Pikachu nerfs*.


*No, I don't have any evidence for this, but by Jove I want it to be true.

[DaOldeWolf]

@Rodin

Actually pokemon trainer and transformations were taken out ((with ice climbers)) due to the 3DS system and also because of balancing issues.

[Zevox]

Doesn't change the fact that they did put Pokemon Trainer in Brawl.

...and all he did was sit in the background while Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard were the actual playable characters. Yes, I'm well aware of this - it's part of why I added that remark to my statement in the first place. You seem to be missing the part where this lines up perfectly with what I said anyway, so you're not making any point here.

What does popularity beforehand have to do with playability?

A lot. Haven't you noticed that there tends to be a strong correlation between which characters are popular from or important within their series and who becomes playable? Aside from the retro characters that get thrown in on the developers' whims, and the odd clone that leaves everyone scratching their heads (i.e. Doctor Mario, Dark Pit, Pichu, etc), that sort of thing is a pretty good predictor of who is likely to be put into the game. Why do you think Pikachu was the first Pokèmon representative? Or Charizard was the only one of the Pokèmon Trainer's trio who was kept around for the new game? Or Fire Emblem added Ike and Robin but cut Roy? Or how about Sonic and Mega Man getting into the game at all?

By and large, the developers do seem to care what fans want and what will please most people. Why they ignore this in select cases (clones, mostly) I don't understand, but there's a pretty clear pattern for most of the roster selection in this regard.

[Sith_Happens]

Samus out of her power armor seems like a joke to me, but they added that and came up with something decent for it. Despite that reference being from a minor part of one game that (I heard) everyone hated playing through. But she's a hot chick. (Now with sexy high heels!)

The Zero Suit is originally from Metroid: Zero Mission, the expanded GBA remake of the first game.

[BeerMug Paladin]

The Zero Suit is originally from Metroid: Zero Mission, the expanded GBA remake of the first game.

That's what I was referring to. Everyone I knew who played it said they hated the part of the game with it. I have no idea if that's the general sentiment of the fandom, though.

[Knaight]

That's what I was referring to. Everyone I knew who played it said they hated the part of the game with it. I have no idea if that's the general sentiment of the fandom, though.

I quite enjoyed that portion, but it seems out of place in brawl, particularly as the entire point of the suit is to make Samus better at combat. Plus, they changed the aesthetic a bit, such as the addition of high heels (which are just dumb) and some general physiological changes that have more than a whiff of fanservice to them.

[Tolvan]

I quite enjoyed that portion, but it seems out of place in brawl, particularly as the entire point of the suit is to make Samus better at combat. Plus, they changed the aesthetic a bit, such as the addition of high heels (which are just dumb) and some general physiological changes that have more than a whiff of fanservice to them.

Those 'high heels' are rocket shoes. Your argument is invalid.

Just kidding, I see your point. Still, rocket shoes.

[huttj509]

That's what I was referring to. Everyone I knew who played it said they hated the part of the game with it. I have no idea if that's the general sentiment of the fandom, though.

Personally, I loved that part of the game. Lacks replay value once you know where to dodge, but was a fun change-up from normal gameplay, which didn't last too long before getting back to standard.

[Vaynor]

The demo is live in the US for the 3DS!

[Rodin]

Wow, it's harder to get used to playing with DS controls than I thought it would be. Weirdest thing is using throws - for some reason it just isn't as intuitive as with the Gamecube controller, I have to shift my left hand to do it.

In terms of actual gameplay, everybody seems heavier than Brawl. Could be my imagination though, since I haven't played Brawl in ages. Still, getting kills definitely seems harder than before, and everybody's recovery moves seem to have been buffed.

Megaman is pretty interesting, but I hate the villager. I just can't wrap my head around him. Not a character I was looking forward to anyway, so no big loss there.

[Vaynor]

I'm liking Villager a lot more than Megaman. I don't like that Megaman's neutral air is shooting his gun, it's not very effective especially compared to most neutral airs. Villager's f-air and b-air are his slingshot, which is about the same, but if the opponent is close it does a pretty decent amount of knockback and damage, it seems. Most of Megaman's special attacks seem mostly useless, too. I hit myself with the sticky bomb more than my opponent, and leaf shield does basically nothing and takes too long to use. Metal blade seems to have some situational uses. Both characters seem to lack any good options for kill moves, though. All of their moves with good knockback seem to be charged attacks. From my limited experience, Villager seems to be a bit more versatile and supports a more aggressive playstyle, which I favor in general, while Megaman is more about taking your time and racking up damage then punishing mistakes. It's hard for me to get used to Megaman especially since the matches are limited to 2 minute games in the demo.

[Xondoure]

I'm liking Villager a lot more than Megaman. I don't like that Megaman's neutral air is shooting his gun, it's not very effective especially compared to most neutral airs. Villager's f-air and b-air are his slingshot, which is about the same, but if the opponent is close it does a pretty decent amount of knockback and damage, it seems. Most of Megaman's special attacks seem mostly useless, too. I hit myself with the sticky bomb more than my opponent, and leaf shield does basically nothing and takes too long to use. Metal blade seems to have some situational uses. Both characters seem to lack any good options for kill moves, though. All of their moves with good knockback seem to be charged attacks. From my limited experience, Villager seems to be a bit more versatile and supports a more aggressive playstyle, which I favor in general, while Megaman is more about taking your time and racking up damage then punishing mistakes. It's hard for me to get used to Megaman especially since the matches are limited to 2 minute games in the demo.

Villager has the advantage that while his side smash is technically chargeable, even from zero charge it has a decent amount of knockback to send people flying.

[Vaynor]

It still has pretty long startup lag and a very short range, though. I'm finding uses for it, but it's hard to pull off.

[Rodin]

Megaman's charged forward smash is pretty awesome in a 4-player match - it's basically Samus's Charge Beam with a shorter range and charge time, and it's pretty easy to land on a pair of players that are brawling.

One of my big concerns about the 3DS version was keeping focus on a small screen. That's proven to be totally unfounded, it plays great.

I notice that coins are being generated for playing. I wonder if those will transfer over to the main game when it comes out? Probably not, sadly...

Edit: It looks like you can bypass the "30 uses" bit by just leaving the game running and sticking the system in Sleep mode.

[Dumbledore lives]

I'm really enjoying Link, moreso than in any other Smash I think. I really like his dash, though is down-air seems a little worse than it was before. That and once the full thing is out there will be Fierce Diety Link who looks super sweet. Otherwise I don't like Megaman that much, but Villager is pretty awesome.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I agree Megaman is hard to use, but I haven't played him as much as Villager, who also handles kind of strangly. I'm amused that Villager's up-b is a direct reference to Balloon Fight.

It looks like Pikachu's down-b has had its knockback power reduced. And I do think launching power has generally been reduced a little overall.

It's going to be a while before I really have much more to say about it than that.

[Zevox]

Played a pretty good amount of the demo today, mostly with Mega Man. I like him, but I don't think he's very good compared to the rest of the cast (though Villager may be in the same boat - didn't use him much, though, so it's harder to judge). He suffers from too many moves of... lets say questionable usefulness, plus a low number of good kill moves. Also, he seems to be designed as a projectile-heavy character, but all of his projectiles have range limits, usually rather bad ones. Even his special moves do, and plenty of characters have projectile specials without range limits.

Thoughts on his moveset:

Spoiler

Show

Mega Buster (jab, f-tilt, nair): Has more hitstun than I thought, which makes it a little better than I was expecting in one way. But much worse than I was expecting due to the range limit. That combined with them covering so little space makes the move pretty questionable. It is at least fast though, and has enough hitstun to interrupt enemy attacks and combo into itself when fired as fast as possible, so it may have a little utility. Overall pretty bad, though.

D-tilt (slide): A decent mid-range move. You don't want to do it point-blank, because it'll be easily punished on block, but from closer to its maximum distance it seems like it should be fine. Also allows a quick combo into fair due to the popup.

U-tilt (Mega Uppercut): It's pretty true to its origins as a shoryuken move. Very fast, high damage for a single hit, but also unable to do anything afterward until you hit the ground again. Depending on the priority, might be a good move for the sorts of things shoryukens normally get used for, but it's always at risk of getting punished.

Dash attack (Top Spin): Somewhat useful. Good damage, okay knockback, multiple hits means it's somewhat good for depleting shields when blocked. But it's punishable on whiff or dodge (though it will catch rolls away from it), and I'm guessing can probably at least be grabbed on block.

F-Smash (charge shot): I'm a bit surprised how decent this is even uncharged - I thought from the invitational tournament that it was rather weak uncharged. Now it seems like one of Mega Man's best kill moves. And the fact that it grows in size and range when charged does make charging it significantly better than most smash attacks. Probably one of Mega's better moves overall.

D-Smash (flamethrowers): This move has two problems: one, it covers very little horizontal distance, making it too easy to whiff it. Two, it has a lot of recovery, making it extremely easy to punish on whiff or block. It is one of Mega Man's best moves for killing on hit, but it's risky to throw it out at all.

U-Smash (spark shock): A decent move. Good for building damage, but surprisingly bad for killing (I wasn't getting kills with it at ~150%). Could use a bigger horizontal hitbox, too. Basically an anti-air move and a way to set up u-air shenanigans.

F-air (flame sword): Good move, one of Mega Man's better ones in neutral. Covers a lot of space, fast startup, decent damage, one of his few non-projectile attacks without a serious drawback. Sadly not a great short-hop move due to landing recovery, however.

B-air (slash claw): One of Mega Man's best moves. Fast, strong, multi-hit, good hitbox, good killing potential. It seems to have a little less landing recovery than the flame sword, which might make it better for short hopping, but I did notice it whiffing when I tried to short-hop it against Pikachu, so short characters might screw with that.
Edit: Checked in more detail on the short-hopping. It whiffs on Pikachu and Mario, connects on Link, Mega Man, and Villager. But when it connects, it's only one or two of the hits, so it's not very good even then. Quite a shame, Mega Man could really use a good short hop move.

D-air (hard knuckle): Very disappointing. The startup is slow - slow enough that it's easy to not get the move out at all before you hit the ground, since doing d-airs without also activating fast fall is impossible, and it has a lot of landing lag if that happens. And on top of that, it has a range limit, and not a particularly long one. Yeah, it can spike, but with it being a fairly small projectile with slow startup, good luck making that work consistently.

U-air (air shot): Surprisingly fairly good. Its main issue is being a fairly small projectile, which can make avoiding it easy, but it's fast, does multiple hits to build a little damage, and knocks the opponent very high into the air. It's actually a reasonable kill move after you've knocked the opponent up with a throw or u-smash, just a tricky one to land. It's also perhaps his only projectile without a range limit (that I've noticed).

Throws: Bad. None of them seem to have kill potential at reasonable percentages, nor do any of them lead to combos. Even the down throw can't seem to get a basic combo into an aerial. Nothing special here.
Edit: After some more testing, at very low percentages (under 20%), you can combo d-throw into u-tilt (Mega Uppercut). That's not bad - Mega Uppercut is a lot of damage for one move. But it's the only thing I've seen that makes Mega's throws any good.

Neutral special (Metal Blade): A meh projectile. Seems to be potentially two hits when it connects, almost no knockback (doesn't even have the slightest chance to kill in sudden death), little hitstun, just some damage. Being able to fire it in all eight directions is nice, if a bit hard to get used to, but between the fairly small size of the blades, range limit, and minimal actual benefits to hitting with them, I don't actually find myself using these that often. Very disappointing.

Down special (Leaf Shield): This move sucks, pure and simple. Long startup, the only thing you can do once it's out is move or throw it, and it doesn't actually do much. It does beat projectiles, so it may have some small utility in projectile wars with certain characters, but other than that, it's useless.

Side special (Crash Bomb): Unreliable. This would be potentially good if you couldn't transfer it like the sticky bomb item, but since you can, it's a risk. To make sure it goes off on them you have to play runaway until it detonates, denying you the chance to take advantage of the detonation forcing them block or dodge.

Up special (Rush Coil): Sonic-esque recovery, minus the ability to do a little damage by dropping the spring on your opponent. Good recovery move, but that's it.

Final Smash (Black Hole Bomb + Mega Man firing squad): This is actually a really good final smash. The Black Hole Bomb covers a lot of space, stays out for a while, and has a suction effect, so it's actually pretty hard to avoid. And the damage and knockback on hit are of course quite strong. Too bad final smashes are items.

Wow, it's harder to get used to playing with DS controls than I thought it would be. Weirdest thing is using throws - for some reason it just isn't as intuitive as with the Gamecube controller, I have to shift my left hand to do it.

I'm finding the controls much easier today than when I tried my friend's early version. Grabbing isn't an issue for me since I got used to doing shield + attack to grab when playing Brawl (used the Wiimote + nunchuks). I do want to change the left shoulder button to block/dodge and turn off tap jump, though.

In terms of actual gameplay, everybody seems heavier than Brawl. Could be my imagination though, since I haven't played Brawl in ages. Still, getting kills definitely seems harder than before, and everybody's recovery moves seem to have been buffed.

Really? I found Link feels lighter and faster than before, personally, and the others seem unchanged (though I've played very little Pikachu, not just in the demo but in the other games as well, so I have little frame of reference for him). Recovery strikes me as about what it was in Brawl - everybody falls so slowly that only the characters with the worst recovery won't be able to make it back to the stage if they aren't killed outright. Recovery moves don't seem any different to me.

[Qwertystop]

I've noticed a bunch of items that feel like auto-kills. Not sure what one of them was because the 3DS screen is tiny and I didn't pause to zoom and look til it was too late, but the other was the Galaga "boss." Both items seemed to just drag the opponent off the top (the other was a thrown item that did it on hitting, I think), and if it's escapable the AI didn't know how. Any idea?

Also, do we have info on the custom movesets?

[Vaynor]

The other was likely the beetle thing from LoZ: The Skyward Sword.

[Zevox]

Also, do we have info on the custom movesets?

I saw a couple of links to someone who was doing full write-ups of everyone's options (there are two per move besides the normal versions), but he only had a few characters done at the time, and I have no idea how to find them now.

I remember that Ness has several of Lucas' moves as options: PK Freeze and his versions of PSI Magnet and PK Thunder. Strangely, not his PK Fire, which was the one that differed the most from Ness' version. I remember that he also has a version of PK Flash that is quicker but strictly vertical, and a PSI Magnet variant that sucks in enemies and causes a small explosion around him instead of absorbing projectiles. Don't remember the other variant of PK Thunder or Fire.

Fox I remember has Wolf's version of his side-B for one of his. He also has a charge shot version of his blaster, and a variant of his up-B that the poster nicknamed "Barrel Roll." That's all I recall for him.

Mega Man's customs are largely similar to his base moves I recall. He had a shuriken that can replace Metal Blade, Skull and Plant shields that can replace Leaf, Beat as an up-B option instead of Rush, and I forget the rest.

He had done a couple of other characters when I saw these, including Dark Pit, but I don't remember any more details.

[Qwertystop]

Actually, I just googled it. Very incomplete info, but there's a short description for a lot of them.

Mega's actually seem pretty different - an arcing bomb or returning shot instead of Metal Blade, a reflecting-but-no-contact-damage shield or more durable shield (frankly, I think that's more differences than there were between the original shields)...

Finding the site brings up another question, though - it mentions that Robin can have two different swords but doesn't say how you get the better one, and that your specials set your current tome but not what that does (plus that tomes have limited uses, but not how to get more tomes).

[Dienekes]

Actually, I just googled it. Very incomplete info, but there's a short description for a lot of them.

Mega's actually seem pretty different - an arcing bomb or returning shot instead of Metal Blade, a reflecting-but-no-contact-damage shield or more durable shield (frankly, I think that's more differences than there were between the original shields)...

Finding the site brings up another question, though - it mentions that Robin can have two different swords but doesn't say how you get the better one, and that your specials set your current tome but not what that does (plus that tomes have limited uses, but not how to get more tomes).

On a positive note, apparently, Ganondorf can finally use his sword. Unfortunately, somehow using a weapon does less damage than not using a weapon. Longer reach though.

[Zevox]

Finding the site brings up another question, though - it mentions that Robin can have two different swords but doesn't say how you get the better one, and that your specials set your current tome but not what that does (plus that tomes have limited uses, but not how to get more tomes).

That was all explained in pics-of-the-day shortly after Robin was announced. His (or her) normal attacks use the Bronze Sword, while smash attacks use the Levin Sword. Both the Levin Sword and your Tomes can break when used enough, but regenerate over time. When broken, smash attacks will be weaker and use the Bronze Sword, specials probably won't work at all but I don't think I've seen that confirmed for certain. I've heard that the Levin Sword at least both breaks and regenerates pretty quickly, not sure if the tomes are the same.

[Rodin]

I've noticed a bunch of items that feel like auto-kills. Not sure what one of them was because the 3DS screen is tiny and I didn't pause to zoom and look til it was too late, but the other was the Galaga "boss." Both items seemed to just drag the opponent off the top (the other was a thrown item that did it on hitting, I think), and if it's escapable the AI didn't know how. Any idea?

I've seen the Galaga boss escaped, but I don't think it was deliberately. 4-man Brawl and the fight continued around the Galaga boss - I think someone hit the boss or hit the player trapped in the tractor beam.

The item weighting has been making it so that I see a few items a heckuva lot (like the Beam Sword, Star Rod, Smoke bombs), while others I have only seen once in all my time spent playing so far (Fire sword, that freaky sword with the eye in it, a laser gun that fired different bullets than either the Super Scope or the standard green blaster from previous games), and others like the beetle I just flat haven't seen. Kinda neat to have that level of variety, but I think one of the first things I do when the game comes out is to lower the rate on some of the more "popular" items.

Really? I found Link feels lighter and faster than before, personally, and the others seem unchanged (though I've played very little Pikachu, not just in the demo but in the other games as well, so I have little frame of reference for him). Recovery strikes me as about what it was in Brawl - everybody falls so slowly that only the characters with the worst recovery won't be able to make it back to the stage if they aren't killed outright. Recovery moves don't seem any different to me.

Like I said, I haven't played Brawl in freaking ages. Played some with Link today and realized I was definitely over-estimating the recoveries. I was incredibly surprised when in a Sudden Death though - hit Link with Link's up-special while on the ground - a full hit that I would normally consider decent value on a kill, and automatic death at 300%. He not only didn't hit the side of the screen, he made it back to the stage with room to spare.

Still, I'm quite prepared to admit that I'm wrong here. I'm going based on how it feels on a game I haven't played in several years. My memories are also "tainted" since all I've been watching in the meantime is Melee and that's all that gets streamed.