Smash Brothers 4 General

[Surrealistik]

Got back into smash recently; loving Megaman and Sanic.

Find myself having to use custom specials for the former; Crash Bomb is basically ass compared to Danger Wrap that can be best described as a moving up-smash in a bubble which is also useful as a close range shotgun; love comboing it with uair and usmash to airblock. Beat is amazing recovery; definitely worth the loss of speed since Rush Coil's hitstun cancel was removed; allows you to take much more risk when it comes to ledge cockblocks and even allows you to fly under several stages to emerge on the other side with ease. All of MM's down Bs are solid and my choice here depends on the opponent. Plant Barrier while your opponent is off-stage or you're flying high with Beat to compensate for its start up lag then using it to facilitate grabs/edge guards is a favourite. Metal Blade seems to be the best neutral B by far.

[Zevox]

Shortly? I think they're out now.

Looks like, yeah. I was just trying to buy Lucas, but kept getting a server error, so I'll try again later.

I am surprised that Roy and Ryu came out right now, but of course we knew they were likely coming since people found their sound clips in Mewtwo's update. I definitely won't be getting Roy myself - I don't see any reason to get yet another Marth clone who would've been better off as a costume - but I'm not sure if I'll get Ryu. Maybe if he ends up looking fun, but I have my doubts that he will. Even when I play Street Fighter I don't use him much (I mostly play Sakura, with some Juri, Makoto, and a couple of others to lesser degrees). And for some reason he costs more than the other DLC characters.

Their sudden release does make me hope we get other future DLC announced during E3, though. I was just expecting their announcement and release dates there, but if they're getting put out right now, maybe they'll have something else to show to make us look forward to.

[Mando Knight]

I think Roy fans would've been upset if they didn't get their "Ph1r3" by making him a straight-up Marth costume.

Ryu costs more because he comes with a stage as well. He also looks like he could be the most technical of the characters in Sm4sh, with all of the move variations and the inclusion of the Street Fighter inputs for more power.

[Zevox]

I think Roy fans would've been upset if they didn't get their "Ph1r3" by making him a straight-up Marth costume.

The fire is purely cosmetic, no reason it couldn't be included in a costume.

Ryu costs more because he comes with a stage as well.

Okay I guess. Still, as I said, I'm unsure if I'm particularly interested in him anyway.

[Sith_Happens]

Metal Blade seems to be the best neutral B by far.

In other news, water is wet.

[Dienekes]

Looks like, yeah. I was just trying to buy Lucas, but kept getting a server error, so I'll try again later.

I am surprised that Roy and Ryu came out right now, but of course we knew they were likely coming since people found their sound clips in Mewtwo's update. I definitely won't be getting Roy myself - I don't see any reason to get yet another Marth clone who would've been better off as a costume - but I'm not sure if I'll get Ryu. Maybe if he ends up looking fun, but I have my doubts that he will. Even when I play Street Fighter I don't use him much (I mostly play Sakura, with some Juri, Makoto, and a couple of others to lesser degrees). And for some reason he costs more than the other DLC characters.

Their sudden release does make me hope we get other future DLC announced during E3, though. I was just expecting their announcement and release dates there, but if they're getting put out right now, maybe they'll have something else to show to make us look forward to.

I'm curious, who is the first Marth clone? None of the other swordsman play anything like Marth.
Wait, forgot about Lucina. I'm an idiot. I blame not having the game for the last 5 months.

[Surrealistik]

In other news, water is wet.

Hey man, I literally just started playing this game (well playing again after a long hiatus, but still). :p

[Zevox]

I'm curious, who is the first Marth clone? None of the other swordsman play anything like Marth.

Lucina, of course. She's even more of a Marth clone than Roy ever was, actually, with the only differences between them being the removal of the sweet-spot mechanic and her being slightly shorter. Roy at least does (or did in Melee, and I'm assuming still does in Smash 4) have some different properties on some of his moves and different weight/movement speed, even if completely recycling all of Marth's animations still means he's essentially a clone.

[Dienekes]

Lucina, of course. She's even more of a Marth clone than Roy ever was, actually, with the only differences between them being the removal of the sweet-spot mechanic and her being slightly shorter. Roy at least does (or did in Melee, and I'm assuming still does in Smash 4) have some different properties on some of his moves and different weight/movement speed, even if completely recycling all of Marth's animations still means he's essentially a clone.

Yeah, I edited my first post as soon as I remembered Lucina.

I do have news that they apparently changed Roy's moves a bit further away from Marth's. A bunch of newer animations (which honestly don't matter to me much), and only 1 move being really changed, his down air.

[Zevox]

Yeah, I edited my first post as soon as I remembered Lucina.

I do have news that they apparently changed Roy's moves a bit further away from Marth's. A bunch of newer animations (which honestly don't matter to me much), and only 1 move being really changed, his down air.

Interesting. Guess I'll see what those are like if/when I face him online.

Got Lucas myself, and took him into training mode. First impressions: he's much as I remember, though perhaps a bit better. Short-hop nair seems to have some serious potential, with no landing recovery whatsoever making it a potentially strong pressure option. Down-throw combos are a go: the old d-throw to u-tilt works, but I'm pretty sure that at least d-throw to nair and uair are both true combos as well (though it's of course hard to be certain in Smash 4's crappy training mode), perhaps at higher percentages than d-throw to u-tilt is possible. D-tilt does not seem to cause tripping, the way Ness' can - or if it does I got crazy unlucky to never have it happen during my tests. Bair can still spike, but is still difficult to do so with - has some awkward spacing requirement or something, I was never clear on it.

The order of killing power on his smash attacks seems to be U-smash > D-smash > F-smash. U-smash being best was obvious of course, but I'm surprised by D-smash being stronger than F-smash. It's an almost 15% difference in how early it kills, in fact (tested on Wii Fit Trainer, who is the closest to an exactly middle-weight among the cast, from what I recall). Also, PK Thunder Missile seems to be a weaker kill move than I recall, though perhaps that's just because I've grown used to Ness' version since Lucas hasn't been around in Smash 4.

I'll certainly be taking him online later. Should be fun getting back into action with old Brawl main in a Smash game whose online is actually decent.

[Geno9999]

Yeah, I edited my first post as soon as I remembered Lucina.

I do have news that they apparently changed Roy's moves a bit further away from Marth's. A bunch of newer animations (which honestly don't matter to me much), and only 1 move being really changed, his down air.

They also changed Roy's Jab. He doesn't have any jab combos with it, he just does a back-handed slash with it. His Neutral B is the same as it is in Melee, though it seems to take longer for it to charge. Since Marth's Neutral was changed to a stab, Roy's Neutral B feels like the inbetween of Marth and Ike's. His Up B allows for a little more horizontal recovery, since he can't use his neutral to carry him like Lucina/Marth.

[John Cribati]

I've already taken Lucas online, and it might be due to matchup unfamiliarity (and the other guys using new characters, too) on their part, but I've lost 1 out of 7 so far. Also his PK Thunder ball looks like it kind of has a windbox property.

[Zevox]

Wow, I think I might want to stay off Smash's online for a few days until the novelty of the DLC characters wears off. I am already so damn sick of fighting Roy. He easily made up the vast majority of my matches tonight. Seriously, other than him I got a small handful of Ryu, one or two Lucas, and one ROB who unfortunately had some stuttery lag issues that made me leave him after one match. Other than that, no variety whatsoever, just Roy after Roy after Roy.

On the up side, yeah, he is clearly less of a clone now - which is a surprise since Doctor Mario and Mewtwo were pretty unchanged as far as their moves go. Unfortunately, he's still mostly a clone. He's kind of a Toon Link sort of clone now: still a lot of his original's moves, but a few of his own, and different weight class. Though I think Toon Link still has more claim to being his own thing than Roy at this point - the weight class difference is far more significant between him and Link than between Roy and Marth, and more of his moves have important, noticeable property differences, and the big height difference between the two changes a lot. On the practical side though, I've gotta say, he seems annoyingly hard to punish. Aside from a totally whiffed u-smash none of his smashes nor even his neutral special seem to have much recovery, and even his fair I couldn't punish with a shield grab once (though maybe that's because of Lucas' tether grab being slower than a normal grab?). And speaking of his u-smash, damn, it's got some frightening horizontal range on it for some reason.

In any event, I'm having some serious issues playing Lucas. It feels very hard to approach people: run up grab is punishable due to being a tether (and possibly the shortest-reach tether in the game at that), dash attack and short hop fair are punishable, and short hop nair only works if they stand still and just try to block (otherwise they hit you out of it or dodge and probably put themselves at an advantageous position, since Lucas' tilts and jab have poor range). Annoyingly, I have to say that PK Thunder Missile is useless except for recovery now: I once hit one of those Roys with it dead on, and he fell out of it after the first couple of hits and I just wound up flying off the stage to my own doom. Yeah, if it's not even a stable carry on a clean hit, there's no way it's worth the risk of using. Also, just using PK Thunder in general seems pretty bad, as his recovery from it is awful, which combines poorly with the thunder being slow-moving: if they get past it or you accidentally run it into the ground, they get a free hit. Oh, and his bair is throwing me off big time: so many times I'll go for that after an aerial exchange puts me in a position where most other characters could use theirs, but because Lucas' takes forever to come out and starts above him even when it does I keep landing before it comes out, and often get hit because of it. Kinda makes the move feel really bad, since I just can't seem to find situations where I want to use it.

On the up side, Lucas' up-smash has a kind of built-in defense against counters: it apparently consists of two hits now, and the first is just a light blow, so counter catches that instead of the second, brutal hit. Had that happen a couple of times tonight, much to my pleasant surprise.

[Mando Knight]

Yeah, Roy is basically Marth's Luigi now (with Lucina taking the Dr. Marth slot, though with the Doc also having a few move differences from the prime now it's not quite a perfect comparison).

[Zevox]

Yeah, Roy is basically Marth's Luigi now (with Lucina taking the Dr. Marth slot, though with the Doc also having a few move differences from the prime now it's not quite a perfect comparison).

Nah, Luigi is much more different from Mario than Roy is from Marth.

Thinking about it, if I were to put the clone characters on a continuum of similarity to the original versus difference, it'd go:

Most Similar
Lucina, Dark Pit
Doctor Mario, Roy (Melee), Falco (Melee) [Pichu & Young Link? It's been too long since I played Melee for me to be sure on those two.]
Roy (SSB4)
Toon Link, Ganondorf
Luigi, Falco (Brawl/SSB4)
Least Similar

If you count them, Lucas and Wolf are even less similar than Luigi/Falco, since they share only special moves, and even those often have significant differences. They're different to the point where I don't even count them as clones myself, though, just characters with a few moves obviously inspired by another's.

[Suichimo]

Roy is seemingly a better character than Marth now, it's weird. And yeah, Roy got the Luigification he needed.

[danzibr]

Time to shell out some more money to Nintendo.

Regarding Lucas' US, I played some good Lucases and got owned with it. Unexpected timing (at least the first few times).

[Sith_Happens]

Hey man, I literally just started playing this game (well playing again after a long hiatus, but still). :p

Actually I meant that Metal Blade is ridiculously overpowered in Megaman's own games so of course it's one of his best moves in Smash.

[Qwertystop]

I won't have a chance to test for a while but am curious - if you set the second stick to do tilts instead of smashes, is there any way to choose which of Ryu's tilts you use?

[Sylthia]

With all the new DLC characters, I think the time has come for Dark Baby Waluigi to be added to the roster.