Smash Brothers 4 General

[Zevox]

Such effort takes time and time takes money.

I'll much rather prefer that Nintendo is paying the designers to come up with cool and shiny new ideas for SSB than trying to super-fine tune balance in particular since, as you just pointed out, most of the players wouldn't even notice the second one.

And the players who did notice it would still complain, because heck if Blazblue gets flak for balance issues, then I don't see how Sakurai could fare any better while keeping SSB's much greater character and move variety.

It's entirely possible to do both. BlazBlue does - each game has had a massive story mode beyond what any other fighting game series does as well as numerous extraneous modes that have little to nothing to do with tournament-style play, and even boss-style deliberately overpowered versions of each character - and Arc System Works is a far smaller company than Nintendo. NetherRealm Studios has in their most recent games (Mortal Kombat 9, Injustice) as well, though the results in that particular case are much less to my personal tastes.

[TheSummoner]

I would like to see Ganondorf dual wielding in the vein of Wind Waker and Hyrule Warriors, though the latter is probably too recent to have impacted development.

Roy was put in Melee to promote Fire Emblem: Sword of Seals (Marth too for that matter). I wouldn't be surprised if they did something similar with Ganondorf's design, ESPECIALLY when he didn't actually appear in the most recent Zelda game and thus they can't use his design from that.

[Zevox]

Roy was put in Melee to promote Fire Emblem: Sword of Seals (Marth too for that matter). I wouldn't be surprised if they did something similar with Ganondorf's design, ESPECIALLY when he didn't actually appear in the most recent Zelda game and thus they can't use his design from that.

I hope so, but do note that they're not using Link or Zelda's design from Skyward Sword either.

[deuterio12]

It's entirely possible to do both. BlazBlue does - each game has had a massive story mode beyond what any other fighting game series does as well as numerous extraneous modes that have little to nothing to do with tournament-style play, and even boss-style deliberately overpowered versions of each character - and Arc System Works is a far smaller company than Nintendo. NetherRealm Studios has in their most recent games (Mortal Kombat 9, Injustice) as well, though the results in that particular case are much less to my personal tastes.

Blazblue is a great game.

But it doesn't spend any effort with 3D graphics, that take a lot more work than 2D.
Or arenas full of dynamic effects.
Or spawnable items that any character can use.
Or allows you more than 2 players on battle at a time.
Or a bunch of other features SSB has and Blazblue just doesn't.

Plus Arc System may be smaller than Nintendo, but they also have less games to worry about.

[Drascin]

Blazblue is a great game.

But it doesn't spend any effort with 3D graphics, that take a lot more work than 2D.
Or arenas full of dynamic effects.
Or spawnable items that any character can use.
Or allows you more than 2 players on battle at a time.
Or a bunch of other features SSB has and Blazblue just doesn't.

Plus Arc System may be smaller than Nintendo, but they also have less games to worry about.

To that add that the content differences between the iterations of Arc games are really rather minimal compared to the huge jumps of content that every Smash iteration represents, that most Arc games traditionally go through a heavy round of patching in the arcades before hitting consoles, that Blazblue is enormously more traditional (to the point that someone who has played any of Arc's other games can probably get his bearings within minutes of trying BlazBlue, since it's so similar to previous offerings in a lot of ways) and therefore has years upon years of balancing conclusions from a dozen similar games to draw on while Smash is more or less unique in the market, that Arc may have less people but they have many more people that have years of experience working primarily on fighting games of all stripes, that the control of space in the Smash formula is way less tight which makes it a serious pain to theorycraft...

And even with all that, BlazBlue still gets balance complaints.

[Rodin]

I only ever played the first BlazBlue, but what I remember of the story mode was a visual novel style affair with talking character portraits instead of full cinematics, and the fights were just, well, fights, instead of a sidescrolling platformer that's as big as other entire platform games.

The question is whether we want them to spend less time on that and more time on balance. And...I dunno. I do want better balance, but I loved the single-player stuff from Brawl. I'm just not sure how much I'm willing to trade.

[deuterio12]

And that reminds me that even the very basic formula of SSB is quite different from other fighting games (must throw opponent out of arena, the more damage you take the farther away you go), while Blazblue can rely on decades of previous experience of countless fighting games where your objective is to deplete the opponent's life bar to zero.

Every SSB character has their unique double jumps and special recoveries (and then Yoshi has no recovery move for the lulz), and that alone is a pain in the ass to balance, but it adds great variety. Then there's other related details like some characters are thrown further away than others.

[Zevox]

But it doesn't spend any effort with 3D graphics, that take a lot more work than 2D.

Really? I've heard that reverse - that the kind of high-quality 2D visuals BlazBlue uses are actually more work than typical 3D ones. Which is part of why even games that play in 2D started using 3D visuals.

Also, the new Guilty Gear is actually using 3D graphics, but designed in such a way that when viewed during a normal match they look like 2D ones. I'm half expecting that to become a standard for ArcSys' future games.

Or arenas full of dynamic effects.
Or spawnable items that any character can use.
Or allows you more than 2 players on battle at a time.
Or a bunch of other features SSB has and Blazblue just doesn't.

And BlazBlue has a bunch of features SSB doesn't, such as the aforementioned massive story modes, or Abyss mode, or Challenge mode, or Unlimited characters. The two are different games with different features, yes. My point was that your assertion that putting real effort into balancing the game and paying attention to advanced levels of play for it somehow means not having a wide array of features is wrong, and to provide examples of series that do just that.

Plus Arc System may be smaller than Nintendo, but they also have less games to worry about.

Which is because they can't make as many games when they're smaller. Doesn't negate my point at all.

And that reminds me that even the very basic formula of SSB is quite different from other fighting games (must throw opponent out of arena, the more damage you take the farther away you go), while Blazblue can rely on decades of previous experience of countless fighting games where your objective is to deplete the opponent's life bar to zero.

Every SSB character has their unique double jumps and special recoveries (and then Yoshi has no recovery move for the lulz), and that alone is a pain in the ass to balance, but it adds great variety. Then there's other related details like some characters are thrown further away than others.

Smash Brothers is 15 years old now - not that much younger than more traditional fighting games. While there have been fewer games using its formula, there have been some others, and there's several iterations of the series itself to draw upon. At this point, I don't think the "it's just too different" argument holds much water. If you wanted to find people who understand how Smash-style fighting works well enough to be a significant help balancing it, you certainly could by now. Hell, there are fans who have done a mod for Brawl for just such purposes, and while I've not played it I've heard nothing but good things about that.

[Gnoman]

Really? I've heard that reverse - that the kind of high-quality 2D visuals BlazBlue uses are actually more work than typical 3D ones. Which is part of why even games that play in 2D started using 3D visuals.

When it comes to character graphics, 3D is several orders of magnitude easier to work with than 2D, unless you're using motion capture (about double the work of non-capture 3D or working from a 3D model (in which case it only takes 20-30% more work). The only situations where 2D is even a little bit easier to work with involve processing capaility (the reason why games like the Donkey Kong Country series turned 3D models into sprites, as the SNES wasn't powerful enough to use them directly) and large areas of background where 2d requires merely making one large painting, but 3d would need many, many models to look half as good.)

[Knaight]

When it comes to character graphics, 3D is several orders of magnitude easier to work with than 2D, unless you're using motion capture (about double the work of non-capture 3D or working from a 3D model (in which case it only takes 20-30% more work). The only situations where 2D is even a little bit easier to work with involve processing capaility (the reason why games like the Donkey Kong Country series turned 3D models into sprites, as the SNES wasn't powerful enough to use them directly) and large areas of background where 2d requires merely making one large painting, but 3d would need many, many models to look half as good.)

2d is also a lot easier when working with fewer pixels, particularly if you're using relatively few frames in animation. This isn't applicable to BazBlue, which has lots and lots of pixels and plenty of frames, but it is pretty relevant to just about any game where characters are on the order of 30 pixels tall.

Which generally means not fighting games.

[OracleofWuffing]

So, now there's video footage of Bowser Jr. making the rounds.

[Zevox]

So, now there's video footage of Bowser Jr. making the rounds.

And Ganondorf, apparently. And yes, he's still a clone. Which sucks so damn much. There's really no excuse for it. Frankly, at this point I suspect we're going to need someone new to take over from Sakurai to ever get a proper Ganondorf into the series.

The videos also seem to prove that the big leak recently is real. Which I'm actually largely okay with, except for a couple of choices that utterly baffle me. Removing the Ice Climbers, Wolf, and Lucas being one; and adding Doctor Mario and Dark Pit as clones being the other. Dark Pit is especially disappointing to me, since he could have been a very unique character, using some of the umpteen million weapons from Uprising that Pit isn't using, which I would actually have been genuinely happy for. But making him a clone? Ugh, what a waste.

I only hope that the other leak that this one lines up with also turns out to be true. That would mean we also get Dixie, Ridley, and Mewtwo. I'd be pretty happy to see Mewtwo back, and I know there's a lot of people who would be made happy by Ridley. Probably some who would be happy with Dixie, too, I suppose.

[Dienekes]

Honestly, what bothers me more is that it looks like even freaking Bowser is faster and more agile than Ganon.

[SKarious]

Some opinions:
I don't think we'll see a playable Ridley. Sakurai hinted at him being a stage hazard (like Yellow Devil).
I really hope Mewtwo is back. He's one of the most iconic non-cute pokemon and every attack he had was full of style.
How do you know Dark Pit plays as a clone? And even if he is, it's justified and his specials probably will have different properties - Kid Icarus allows for a lot of variations on the same weapons.

And, as long as we're throwing character ideas:
I've always thought Ganondorf's attack and style in Smash could suit Hawke (from my favorite series Advance Wars), maybe with a life draining aura as a Final Smash. What do you think? Would anyone else like to see him in Smash?

[Rising Phoenix]

Shulk and bowser jr. are confirmed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo11qTTDUUw

[OracleofWuffing]

I've always thought Ganondorf's attack and style in Smash could suit Hawke (from my favorite series Advance Wars), maybe with a life draining aura as a Final Smash. What do you think? Would anyone else like to see him in Smash?

I don't know, I think Max would be the most combat-capable CO from there, even if Andy/Nell are probably more iconic to that series. I mean, he could summon a tank for a final sma... Oh, wait.

[Hytheter]

There's also a whole album of images, uploaded by the same guy as the videos
So that's all visual leaks basically confirmed. But we probably haven't seen all characters just yet; in the leaks, All-Star mode is locked which indicates unlocked character.

Spoiler

Show

This leak matches a much older leak that also claims Dixie, Ridley, Chorus Men and Mewtwo.

Meanwhile on 4chan, someone (supposedly the original leaker) claims Mewtwo, Ridley, Dixie, Impa, Mach Rider, posted with an otherwise unseen screen shot. (although he also admits to lying about stuff before, like the DLC stuff so take with a grain of salt...)

That puts Ridley, Mewtwo and Dixie Kong in two separate links, so here's hoping.

Also, idk if you guys remember the palutena leak from way back, but the 4chan guy I just mentioned reportedly faked that.

[Zevox]

I don't think we'll see a playable Ridley. Sakurai hinted at him being a stage hazard (like Yellow Devil).

Maybe, but he's also avoided actually confirming that outright for some reason. That part is the most questionable, since it's just another text-only leak that happens to line up perfectly with the recent one, but it would be quite a coincidence for a fake leak to get so much perfectly right when some of it - like the cuts and the clones - was very unpredictable.

How do you know Dark Pit plays as a clone?

The leaker providing those images and videos said as much.

And even if he is, it's justified and his specials probably will have different properties

Doesn't matter. I still consider it a disappointing waste of potential to make a character that could be unique and interesting into a clone - and just generally disappointing to have any clones whatsoever, really.

[Xondoure]

Maybe, but he's also avoided actually confirming that outright for some reason. That part is the most questionable, since it's just another text-only leak that happens to line up perfectly with the recent one, but it would be quite a coincidence for a fake leak to get so much perfectly right when some of it - like the cuts and the clones - was very unpredictable.


The leaker providing those images and videos said as much.


Doesn't matter. I still consider it a disappointing waste of potential to make a character that could be unique and interesting into a clone - and just generally disappointing to have any clones whatsoever, really.

Then again, the leak that included Rosalina got a lot of things right and a few things wrong. It's not unlikely that could happen again.

[Tectonic Robot]

We don't know if any of this is true or not yet, guys. Video can be faked, y'know.

[Zevox]

We don't know if any of this is true or not yet, guys. Video can be faked, y'know.

Multiple videos - which were removed on the same day due to copyright claims, I might add - and a bunch of screenshots would require a hell of a lot of work to fake. Occam's Razor dictates that the most logical explanation here is that this is a genuine leak.

[Mando Knight]

If the leaker is who he says he is, then I have to question whether the "15 minutes of fame" is worth potentially losing his job and getting blacklisted. I'm pretty sure people employed by the ESRB are required to sign NDAs regarding the games they preview...

[Zevox]

If the leaker is who he says he is, then I have to question whether the "15 minutes of fame" is worth potentially losing his job and getting blacklisted. I'm pretty sure people employed by the ESRB are required to sign NDAs regarding the games they preview...

Supposedly, someone who knows him has actually passed along that he wasn't an ESRB employee, but a Nintendo of America one. Who has today been identified by NOA and fired - and is going to be sued, I would presume over breach of an NDA. So yeah, that might very well have already happened.

[Pie Guy]

I play melee as a sport, but I don't see what problems people have with clones. Even minor alterations to a character can make it completely different to play.

[Zevox]

I play melee as a sport, but I don't see what problems people have with clones. Even minor alterations to a character can make it completely different to play.

Not for most people.

Really, there's two different reactions I have to clones, neither of them positive. If it's a character I wasn't interested in being in the game, it comes across as a lazy way to pad out the roster - take an old character, throw a new skin on them, make a couple of minor mechanical tweaks, call it a new character. If it's a character I would be interested in, it's very disappointing that they just get stuck with someone else's moves instead of having an entirely unique set of abilities to themselves. Either way, I'd be far happier if the character were unique, rather than mostly or entirely a copy of another. They'd bring far more to the game that way.

[Rising Phoenix]

Given that Mario Kart 8 is to receive DLC support do you folks thinks Smash will get it as well? Seems very, very likely imo.

[Zevox]

Given that Mario Kart 8 is to receive DLC support do you folks thinks Smash will get it as well? Seems very, very likely imo.

I hope so. That would be a good way to get characters that might not otherwise make it into the game, like Mewtwo (depending on if that other leak is accurate) and Isaac.

[Mando Knight]

It's quite probable. Nintendo's still figuring out the whole DLC thing, but I'm sure they realize that Smash is one of the most DLC-able games they have. Alternate skins, extra characters, new stages, there's plenty they could do with DLC. And Amiibo. Don't forget their new little figurines that they'll be selling for Smash.

[huttj509]

Don't forget their new little figurines that they'll be selling for Smash.

And Mario Kart, and other games. It's not a smash-only accessory.

[Hytheter]

Speaking of Mario Kart 8, if the leaks are true then we have this weird situation where Bowser Jr is in Smash Bros but not Mario Mart.
Meanwhile, Link and and the Villager are in Mario Kart.