Freefall: DOGGY!

[halfeye]

Florence is Broken by Design! Ya...

(j/k)

GW

She's within her design parameters, which should do wonders for her confidence.

Overconfidence will be her biggest problem now, that and reproduction, since I don't know of any other bowman's wolves.

[Coidzor]

Overconfidence will be her biggest problem now, that and reproduction, since I don't know of any other bowman's wolves.

I suppose their existence is slightly suspect since we don't even know that Florence remembers having seen any of them before, but she's been corresponding with someone...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I suppose their existence is slightly suspect since we don't even know that Florence remembers having seen any of them before, but she's been corresponding with someone...

Word of God confirms that there are 14 of them... and that most of them are a-holes (like, one of the males is uninterested in reproducing, and another wants to charge the females outrageous amounts of money for his sperm. There is a third male, who also can't or won't reproduce, which is why the second can get away with it.

Grey Wolf

[Coidzor]

Word of God confirms that there are 14 of them... and that most of them are a-holes (like, one of the males is uninterested in reproducing, and another wants to charge the females outrageous amounts of money for his sperm. There is a third male, who also can't or won't reproduce, which is why the second can get away with it.

Grey Wolf

You really wonder why advanced aliens bother uplifting anyone if they're all going to be jerks. Or maybe that's what makes them advanced, their uplifts don't all turn out to be jerks aside from the occasional fluke?

[Yuki Akuma]

The third male is actually in a committed monogamous relationship with one of the females. So he will breed. With her. Specifically.

The rest of them are females and none of them seem to particularly be jerks. Just that second male, really.

[halfeye]

The third male is actually in a committed monogamous relationship with one of the females. So he will breed. With her. Specifically.

The rest of them are females and none of them seem to particularly be jerks. Just that second male, really.

That's a really, really weird population for wolves. Usually, a pack is one female and lots of males.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm sure it was intentional on Bowman's part.

11 females and 3 males makes for a much faster breeding population than 3 females and 11 males, after all.

[halfeye]

I'm sure it was intentional on Bowman's part.

11 females and 3 males makes for a much faster breeding population than 3 females and 11 males, after all.

If the males will breed.

[Yuki Akuma]

If the males will breed.

Yep, that's almost certainly why there's three of them, not just one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The third male is actually in a committed monogamous relationship with one of the females. So he will breed. With her. Specifically.

Which, if there was sperm enough to go around would be fine. But when you single-handedly reduce available male DNA of your species by a third that is an a-hole move. Sure, he will have more children than male 1, but it is still bad for the species as a whole. It's not like the females are asking for conjugal visits, just for donations.

I know, I know, the real future for the wolves is to get the humans to produce a second much larger generation rather than depend on three males reproducing with all the females - even if all three did, the genetic pool would still be too restricted for any kind of bright future ahead - but still, not cool.

Edit: but yes, I should say, I was thinking that the males were a-holes; I should not have included all the females in my disparagement

Grey Wolf

[Rakaydos]

So one of the males is gay, another is monogamous, and the third acts like he's the last man on earth?

[halfeye]

Which, if there was sperm enough to go around would be fine. But when you single-handedly reduce available male DNA of your species by a third that is an a-hole move. Sure, he will have more children than male 1, but it is still bad for the species as a whole. It's not like the females are asking for conjugal visits, just for donations.

I know, I know, the real future for the wolves is to get the humans to produce a second much larger generation rather than depend on three males reproducing with all the females - even if all three did, the genetic pool would still be too restricted for any kind of bright future ahead - but still, not cool.

Grey Wolf

I can't quite get my head around whether it would be uncool or very cool for Florence to request a sexual reasignment in the circumstances.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I can't quite get my head around whether it would be uncool or very cool for Florence to request a sexual reasignment in the circumstances.

I'd imagine that the technology to turn ovaries into functional testes doesn't exist in Freefallverse, or one of the females would have at least considered it by now. If one did, it'd be either a "good for him" if he was FtM, or cool if she was doing it for the greater good (Note: Due to the abuse the phrase "for the greater good" has been subject to, I must clarify that "sacrifices for the greater good" are only cool in my eyes if the one making the sacrifice consents to it).

Grey Wolf

[halfeye]

I'd imagine that the technology to turn ovaries into functional testes doesn't exist in Freefallverse, or one of the females would have at least considered it by now. If one did, it'd be either a "good for him" if he was FtM, or cool if she was doing it for the greater good (Note: Due to the abuse the phrase "for the greater good" has been subject to, I must clarify that "sacrifices for the greater good" are only cool in my eyes if the one making the sacrifice consents to it).

Grey Wolf

I was conscious of Florence's current position and the extra possibilities that might enable.

[Coidzor]

Yep, that's almost certainly why there's three of them, not just one.

Yep. Thought to include spares. Included insufficient spares.

And the gay one and the monogamous one are both idiots. If there's even a gay one and it's not something that would actually explain an aversion to artificial insemination.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yeah, honestly, when I first read about the three male Bowman's wolves, I got unreasonably annoyed at a bunch of fictional characters.

You have a moral duty to ensure the future of your own species. Even if their gene pool doesn't really have wide enough diversity anyway (you'd need about fifty genetically distinct individuals for that), refusing to breed is still a terrible thing to do.

And yes I do consider sabotaging your own species' chances of survival morally reprehensible. Right up there with genocide.

[Coidzor]

Besides, they're property anyway... If anyone's going to charge it's their owners.

Granted, any sane program would've put the kibosh on the attempt to hold the program at ransom in its terms of lease/sale, but, well, this setting...

[Kornaki]

What is Dr. Bowman's point? We have yet to see the human maximizers do anything that is actually bad news for anything, except for one attempt by a robot to destroy other robots, and is really something that Kornada could have figured out how to do himself if he was competent (the existence of a Clippy-like partner was unnecessary). The only things in existence that we have really been concerned about robots destroying are neural-network robots, so making those neural network robots to help keep the robots under control has basically created its own problem to solve. The other possibility is that Dr. Bowman is concerned about himself, being not a human, or other aliens perhaps (but as we have observed Sam has not had a problem interacting with robots for all these years).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What is Dr. Bowman's point? We have yet to see the human maximizers do anything that is actually bad news for anything, except for one attempt by a robot to destroy other robots, and is really something that Kornada could have figured out how to do himself if he was competent (the existence of a Clippy-like partner was unnecessary). The only things in existence that we have really been concerned about robots destroying are neural-network robots, so making those neural network robots to help keep the robots under control has basically created its own problem to solve. The other possibility is that Dr. Bowman is concerned about himself, being not a human, or other aliens perhaps (but as we have observed Sam has not had a problem interacting with robots for all these years).

We haven't seen human maximizers, except the "baby" AIs in the "war". Bowman already made sure that his AIs didn't have maximizer tendencies past the 20-year point. Instead, they develop their own interests. The danger he foresees is that if every AI works towards a single goal, with no other goal ever considered, it leads to a situation in which every other priority is secondary to creating more humans to be served - terrible news for everything, including ultimately humans themselves. Think replicators in Stargate SG1.

Grey Wolf

[Kornaki]

We haven't seen human maximizers, except the "baby" AIs in the "war". Bowman already made sure that his AIs didn't have maximizer tendencies past the 20-year point. Instead, they develop their own interests.

So we have basically had 20 years of human maximizers running around (and remember not all robots are of the Bowman architecture) and have not had any problems.

The danger he foresees is that if every AI works towards a single goal, with no other goal ever considered, it leads to a situation in which every other priority is secondary to creating more humans to be served - terrible news for everything, including ultimately humans themselves. Think replicators in Stargate SG1.

Grey Wolf

We have not seen any indication that any robots would want to actually do that. So are none of the robots actually human maximizers, or does he not understand how the robots (both those he made and those he didn't) work?

[Math_Mage]

What is Dr. Bowman's point? We have yet to see the human maximizers do anything that is actually bad news for anything, except for one attempt by a robot to destroy other robots, and is really something that Kornada could have figured out how to do himself if he was competent (the existence of a Clippy-like partner was unnecessary). The only things in existence that we have really been concerned about robots destroying are neural-network robots, so making those neural network robots to help keep the robots under control has basically created its own problem to solve. The other possibility is that Dr. Bowman is concerned about himself, being not a human, or other aliens perhaps (but as we have observed Sam has not had a problem interacting with robots for all these years).

I think it's a stretch to say that non-Bowman robots don't deserve concern.

I have a different problem, though. It's not clear to me that non-Bowman robots were designed to be human maximizers. I mean, they aren't exactly designed to be human harm minimizers (the Three Laws interpretation), since the safeguards are more sophisticated than the Three Laws--but that seems like a closer interpretation, and one that can mean bad news for humans as well.

Side note: while trying to get a better picture of what safeguards are actually placed on robots in this comic, I ran across this archived information. Very interesting read.

[Kornaki]

I think it's a stretch to say that non-Bowman robots don't deserve concern.

Non-Bowman robots have never been threatened by robots trying to be human maximizers either. The point is that for all this concern about robots doing so much for humans and being so dangerous, we really haven't seen that much of it.

EDIT TO ADD: In fact there has been at least as much danger to them from robots that aren't human maximizers; the Bowman robots scavenging other bots for parts on the streets.

[Ravens_cry]

Reminds me of the end of

Spoiler: An old book, but possibly worth reading.

Show

The Foundation series, where the reason revealed why we never encounter aliens in that series is the Zeroth Law Robots were killing off other sapient species before humans could encounter them.

[Douglas]

Reminds me of the end of

Spoiler: An old book, but possibly worth reading.

Show

The Foundation series, where the reason revealed why we never encounter aliens in that series is the Zeroth Law Robots were killing off other sapient species before humans could encounter them.

That's not quite what actually happened.

Spoiler

Show

The robots did not kill off other sapient life, the robots used some sort of reality manipulation tech to select a universe where other sapient life (in the Milky Way, at least) never even develops in the first place. Apparently, all that was needed was to ensure that Earth is the only habitable planet with a large moon, as the moon's gravity (somehow) resulted in higher amounts of uranium in Earth's crust, making it more radioactive, causing a higher mutation rate and speeding up evolution. The default speed of evolution, as the Foundation series would have it, hardly ever gets significantly past moss and similar life in the time span available.

Also, if you want the label to help anyone decide whether to open that spoiler or not, you should be more specific about what it is you're spoiling. For anyone who hasn't opened it yet, it's the Foundation series.

[Ravens_cry]

That's not quite what actually happened.

Spoiler

Show

The robots did not kill off other sapient life, the robots used some sort of reality manipulation tech to select a universe where other sapient life (in the Milky Way, at least) never even develops in the first place. Apparently, all that was needed was to ensure that Earth is the only habitable planet with a large moon, as the moon's gravity (somehow) resulted in higher amounts of uranium in Earth's crust, making it more radioactive, causing a higher mutation rate and speeding up evolution. The default speed of evolution, as the Foundation series would have it, hardly ever gets significantly past moss and similar life in the time span available.

Also, if you want the label to help anyone decide whether to open that spoiler or not, you should be more specific about what it is you're spoiling. For anyone who hasn't opened it yet, it's the Foundation series.

The trouble is, putting it in that context is itself a spoiler.

Spoiler: Continuation of spoiled discussion,

Show

Hmm, long time since I read the book, but OK. Still, it's still a case of a 'human maximiser' at work I'd say.

As for Freefall's human maximisers, even that might not be good if they decide that humans are better off cocooned basically. Perhaps kept on life support and in isolation units so they don't catch diseases and 'live' as long as possible. Imagine the Matrix, but it's not for power generation of even computation but to keep us 'safe'. *shudder*
Ack, this is such a quandary for an anthrophile. Humanity enslaved 'for our own good', or made irrelevant by beings that can be mass produced as functional adults and who can self improve beyond our capacity to keep up. I guess the best we can hope is we make good pets. 'Doggy' indeed.

[Coidzor]

Ack, this is such a quandary for an anthrophile. Humanity enslaved 'for our own good', or made irrelevant by beings that can be mass produced as functional adults and who can self improve beyond our capacity to keep up. I guess the best we can hope is we make good pets. 'Doggy' indeed.

That is a good reason not to let AI just go unsupervised or be designed by idiots or madmen, yes.

[Ravens_cry]

That is a good reason not to let AI just go unsupervised or be designed by idiots or madmen, yes.

Perhaps, but there isa fine line between 'supervised' and 'enslaved'. Imagine if an alien race was holding back human progress because they feared, justifiably, we'd supersede them.

[Coidzor]

Perhaps, but there isa fine line between 'supervised' and 'enslaved'. Imagine if an alien race was holding back human progress because they feared, justifiably, we'd supersede them.

Meh. It's more like if humans were vat-grown as a slave race by an alien race and if they didn't watch us to make sure that they had actually designed us properly we'd kill, enslave, or inflict a fate worse than death upon them.

Ideally you'd never make strong AI without being able to deal with them and do it intelligently given the difficulty in actually making a sophont. Plus, most of what we want AI for we just want weak AI anyway, those who actually want to be bundled off into cocoons by a Machine God of their own creation.

A robotic arm in a factory does not need nearly as much architecture as the bowman design affords, for instance. Potentially an intelligence overseeing an entire factory might need strong AI, but not nearly enough to get anywhere near the border for personhood.

Hence this webcomic about what happens when desperation and a mad scientist cause people to start using people-AI as hammer-AI where things have, objectively, not been done right and they're trying to muddle through as best they can.

[Ravens_cry]

Geoscale engineering is one case where the hammer you need is people I'd say, or close to it. You need a lot of agents capable of independent, unsupervised action, yet you also need a lot of coordinating and communications between said agents. While you probably wouldn't need something quite as human as our friends here, you'd need something that, while not human, would be damn close to people, if Other. Once you add humans in residence to the mix, you need something even more human, or that at least understands human motivations, or the conflict will be even worse.

[Coidzor]

Geoscale engineering is one case where the hammer you need is people I'd say, or close to it. You need a lot of agents capable of independent, unsupervised action, yet you also need a lot of coordinating and communications between said agents. While you probably wouldn't need something quite as human as our friends here, you'd need something that, while not human, would be damn close to people, if Other. Once you add humans in residence to the mix, you need something even more human, or that at least understands human motivations, or the conflict will be even worse.

They are not *only* using the robots for Geoscale engineering. There are from what I can see, robots that are the equivalent of giving full awareness and intelligence to a hammer. Jar-Jar bot, for instance.