A Good Aligned Con Artist?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Can you think of a way that a character with a good alignment would become a Con Artist?
Mainly I'm looking at making a Bluff heavy character, and Nymph's kiss can help with that but I need to be good for it.
Though a good con artist sounds like a fun concept regardless, I just need to think of how that would actually work.

Side questions that relate to this:

1. Good ways to increase Bluff?
2. I'm thinking of grabbing an item familiar. What are good ways to make it almost impossible to lose the item?

[Rubik]

If you're talking conceptually, "lying" is Chaotic, not Evil. You can lie for good reasons, just like you can lie for bad ones. If you infiltrate Evil Empires™ and work to destroy them from the inside, rather than through massive wars, in order to spare as much life as possible (especially for innocent conscripted troops), you'll be lying your arse off to keep from being found out. That doesn't make you bad. If anything, you're probably better than someone who openly declares war and destroys everything in their path.

[VoxRationis]

You could do the Robin Hood route. A little cliched, perhaps, but not totally invalid, particularly not for a fantasy roleplaying character.
Also, the above. The lying is a method to achieve your goals, and a method that, done right, isn't going to leave anyone hurt besides anyone you were setting out to hurt. Just be wary of how you go about things; a well-played infiltration rogue can obviate much of the rest of the party.
I suppose the easiest way to make the item difficult to steal would be to have it somehow inset into your body. A piercing might work, though it might not be appropriate for the campaign setting.

[A Tad Insane]

Something something Leverage something or lying to people to help them/for their own good something.

[Vhaidara]

Honestly, good people can be con-artists. You just make a point of only conning people who it won't hurt. So successful merchants, evil people, and standoffish nobles rather than Joan and Jeff the commoner couple with 5 copper to their name and 6 screaming children.

[Rubik]

Something something Leverage something or lying to people to help them/for their own good something.

You're a credit to your username.

Also, this probably applies here.

[Gwazi Magnum]

So mainly just scam rich and well off people?

I can see how that's not evil, but wouldn't that land me more in Neutral?
I can imagine something like giving gold back to the people to be good, however...

1) I want the reason he's good to be more interesting than that
2) I hate seeing my gold go away to something non-party beneficial.

[Rubik]

So mainly just scam rich and well off people?

I can see how that's not evil, but wouldn't that land me more in Neutral?
I can imagine something like giving gold back to the people to be good, however...

1) I want the reason he's good to be more interesting than that
2) I hate seeing my gold go away to something non-party beneficial.

It's not so much that you should scam rich people, but that you should lie to and scam people who are doing bad things that you can avert or punish with your own scamming. Doing as Toph started off doing in The Runaway, for instance, where you scam scammers to punish them by taking away their ill-gotten gains would be a good start. Blackmailing people like Lucius Malfoy, and forcing them to do things which counteract their intended aims would be another example.

Basically, choose your targets and what you do to them carefully, so that they receive ironic justice, without bothering with legal recourse.

Your character likely doesn't trust the legal system (either due to corruption of the current system, or because of some past experience that destroyed that trust earlier in life), and it would give you some good references to rely on when determining how to RP other events. WHY does your character not just turn the other party in, and instead tricks, deceives, lies, and steals? Then use the answers to that question to determine how you con others, as well as who those "others" are.

[Gwazi Magnum]

It's not so much that you should scam rich people, but that you should lie to and scam people who are doing bad things that you can avert or punish with your own scamming. Doing as Toph started off doing in The Runaway, for instance, where you scam scammers to punish them by taking away their ill-gotten gains would be a good start. Blackmailing people like Lucius Malfoy, and forcing them to do things which counteract their intended aims would be another example.

Basically, choose your targets and what you do to them carefully, so that they receive ironic justice, without bothering with legal recourse.

Your character likely doesn't trust the legal system (either due to corruption of the current system, or because of some past experience that destroyed that trust earlier in life), and it would give you some good references to rely on when determining how to RP other events. WHY does your character not just turn the other party in, and instead tricks, deceives, lies, and steals? Then use the answers to that question to determine how you con others, as well as who those "others" are.

The current character background I have is basically someone who was a slave for most of their life and has only been free now for a few years. They got free by being able to gain the trust of all the other slaves and leading a successful rebellion against their masters. And I remember my DM mentioning at some point that in the world we're going to play in a good amount of area's have slavery as legal. So perhaps he doesn't trust the law because they allow something like Slavery to happen?

Also, if I'm going Charisma based con-artist I might end up rolling a Hell bred. So in that case I'd need to think of a reason he was damned to hell. My best guess if I had to think of something right now would be that maybe after getting free he sought revenge through more violent means, but this caused him to go bad and when he died go to hell. But having his soul saved at the last moment, vowed to go use more peaceful/humane methods to deal with villainy of the world? Rather than more extreme methods? I'd have to think through a bit more on this second part.

[Vhaidara]

What I like doing with Hellbred is a reversal. The thing they crusade against was their crime before being damned. So, in your case, your character was a slaver, and was damned for that, but repented last second and became a hellbred. Now he fights slavery to cleanse the stain it left on his soul.

[Rubik]

The current character background I have is basically someone who was a slave for most of their life and has only been free now for a few years. They got free by being able to gain the trust of all the other slaves and leading a successful rebellion against their masters. And I remember my DM mentioning at some point that in the world we're going to play in a good amount of area's have slavery as legal. So perhaps he doesn't trust the law because they allow something like Slavery to happen?

Also, if I'm going Charisma based con-artist I might end up rolling a Hell bred. So in that case I'd need to think of a reason he was damned to hell. My best guess if I had to think of something right now would be that maybe after getting free he sought revenge through more violent means, but this caused him to go bad and when he died go to hell. But having his soul saved at the last moment, vowed to go use more peaceful/humane methods to deal with villainy of the world? Rather than more extreme methods? I'd have to think through a bit more on this second part.

Since that's part of your intended background, have you (and your siblings) be sold into slavery as punishment for a crime that your parents committed, or that they were framed for. Basically, you received a horrible, life-long punishment for something you obviously didn't do (and that even the legal adjudicator knew you didn't do, since it was your parents' crime), and so you hold absolutely no regard for legal process, or even the idea of "justice" outside of the justice extracted on a personal level.

[Gwazi Magnum]

What I like doing with Hellbred is a reversal. The thing they crusade against was their crime before being damned. So, in your case, your character was a slaver, and was damned for that, but repented last second and became a hellbred. Now he fights slavery to cleanse the stain it left on his soul.

I like that idea a lot, however I had a friend who helped me a good amount thinking of the character history and such, so I'd feel kind of ****ty if I changed it so he wasn't a slave anymore.
So what I might do is say "He was a Slave, fought his way to freedom and used it to become a slaver himself (Survival of the fittest logic). But after living a life of that he repented and now fights against it. The question is though there, did he repent before death for some reason? Or did he repent out of fear of hell?

Since that's part of your intended background, have you (and your siblings) be sold into slavery as punishment for a crime that your parents committed, or that they were framed for. Basically, you received a horrible, life-long punishment for something you obviously didn't do (and that even the legal adjudicator knew you didn't do, since it was your parents' crime), and so you hold absolutely no regard for legal process, or even the idea of "justice" outside of the justice extracted on a personal level.

His mother was a slave when he was born, so at birth he was already the property of slavers.

[The Insanity]

Hello? A-Team?

[Azoth]

If you don't want to see your funds going to waste, and can spare a feat, look into Landlord.

Get yourself a plot of land and use your wages from being a con man to free slaves and send them to your stronghold. Make it a land share type deal.

Everyone works and has a job to do, and in exchange are given the necessities of life. The harder they work the better off your stronghold is, and the better off their lives are in return.

Make it clear that they can leave whenever they like and take their possessions with them when they do so.

It is basically a refugee camp for former slaves.

[ericgrau]

Chaotic good. Scam evil folks, for example Robin Hood style, but possibly for other reasons.

So ya, there are a million ways to do this.

[Red Fel]

I'd like to point out one small detail.

The OP was asking two questions, not just one. To the first question, as to whether a good person can be a con artist, the answer is yes. Grifters, mooches, escorts, yes-men and sycophants, there are many people who get from one meal to the next by telling people exactly what they want to hear, and it's not always Evil to do so.

But the OP was also asking about Nymph's Kiss. And Nymph's Kiss is an Exalted feat. And being "not Evil" isn't enough. Heck, being "pretty okay" isn't enough, either. Exalted means super-Good. Ultra-Good. Gooder than Good. Exalted borders on stupidly, absurdly, self-cripplingly Good.

Good people can lie. Good people can cheat. Good people do that sort of thing on an almost daily basis. It's a much bigger deal for an Exalted person.

It's part of why letting Exalted feats into a campaign is such a big deal. Not just because so many of them stink on ice. (Looking at you, Vow of Poverty.) It's because, whereas alignment usually isn't a straightjacket, Exalted feats can turn it into one. That's the whole premise.

Tl;dr version: Can a Good person be a con artist? Yes, if you're not hurting innocent people or acting in a purely selfish manner. Can an Exalted person be a con artist? No.

[nedz]

A Bard or Beguiler with Glibness is the easy way to do this mechanically; though a Cleric with access to Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar would also work.

[Sartharina]

Honestly, good people can be con-artists. You just make a point of only conning people who it won't hurt. So successful merchants, evil people, and standoffish nobles rather than Joan and Jeff the commoner couple with 5 copper to their name and 6 screaming children.

On the contrary: "You Have Stolen, Embezzled, Defrauded And Swindled Without Discrimination, Mr Lipvig. You Have Ruined Businesses And Destroyed Jobs. When Banks Fail, It Is Seldom Bankers Who Starve. Your Actions Have Taken Money From Those Who Had Little Enough To Begin With. In A Myriad Small Ways You Have Hastened The Deaths Of Many. You Do Not Know Them. You Did Not See Them Bleed. But You Snatched Bread From Their Mouths And Tore Clothes From Their Backs. For Sport, Mr Lipvig. For Sport. For The Joy Of The Game.”

[nedz]

Well the trick, obviously, is to Steal, Embezzle, Defraud and Swindle With Discrimination.

Alternatively you can use these skills for non-material ends. Deception is a valid tactic to use independent of the means.

[Azoth]

If all you are interested in from Nymph's Kiss is the +2 to Cha skills there is a weaker feat from Oriental Adventures that might work. Requires you to be human for what that's worth.

Karmic Twin, gives +2 to all Cha skills and skill checks.

[otakumick]

A good aligned con artist... makes me think of either Patrick Jayne from the Mentalist or The Great and Powerful Oz.

[Inevitability]

Use the Zealotic Paladin excuse.

Everything that is evil when used against good people is good when used against evil people.

Lying may be evil when used against good people, but if you're using it to destroy evil, no problemo.

[gomipile]

Malconvokers are sometimes a very specific type of this.

[Seharvepernfan]

Tl;dr version: Can a Good person be a con artist? Yes, if you're not hurting innocent people or acting in a purely selfish manner. Can an Exalted person be a con artist? No.

There's no reason for this to be true.

I had a concept for a CG beguiler with vow of peace/pacifism/whatever feats, who never killed or even hurt people (maybe whelmed them or shot them with knockout-poisoned hand crossbow darts, but that's it), and had uber-high bluff/diplomacy. A con artist is someone who takes the resources of someone else through deception. They differ from thieves in general because they do it through lying rather than physical stealth. If they do this to evil folks to help non-evil folks, how does that keep them from being exalted? It's no worse than some paladin stabbing an orc invader, in fact it's probably better, because they're not actually harming anyone.

Evil merchants/politicians/generals/priests/whatever being the main targets here, with the aim of helping the people that these targets oppress and use as cattle. If you're making evil people less powerful and helping non-evil people at the same time, you're good. Period. If you devote yourself to doing this, and do your absolute best to avoid unnecessary harm (up to and including dying rather than committing an evil act), you can be exalted too.

[Ravens_cry]

Moist von Lipwig is both a deconstruction (we see how even a non-violent 'good' con artist can ruin people's lives) and a reconstruction (how he

Spoiler: spoils slightly a really good book

Show

takes down Reacher Guilt

) of the whole non-violent Con Artist shtick.
So, yeah, choose your targets well.

[deuxhero]

Teach people important moral lessons with your cons.

[Ravens_cry]

Teach people important moral lessons with your cons.

Like, "Nobody sells a gold and diamond ring for a lot less than it's worth on street corners." Heck, you're practically doing them a service!

[jedipotter]

So mainly just scam rich and well off people?

I can see how that's not evil, but wouldn't that land me more in Neutral?
I can imagine something like giving gold back to the people to be good, however...

A good person can be a con artist, as long as it is for a good reason. And you don't have to only steal from the rich. Though a good person would not take from the very needy poor.

There is lots of spin here. Such as:

You see your con as a test. Your testing people you encounter to see if they can spot a con or not. If they do, they keep thier coins...if not they loose. You might or might not come to them after and tell them what they did wrong. Or you could pass this along to another person, like telling a wife ''you might want to make sure the books are right''. or such. It is far better for you as a good person to discover that someone has a ''con weak spot'', then for when they fall for an evil persons con.

You see your con as pratice. You need to keep your skills sharp. So you con anyone/everyone you can. So that when you have to do a con vs a big bad evil, you will have some expereince at it.

You can see your con as a challange. It is like arm wrestling. Your seeing who is ''better'', with the ''bet'' whatever the con is about. This makes the con mostly for fun. And just like a freindly sport.

You can see your con as ''wealth redistrubution''. You, as a good person, feel you have the right(moral high ground) to decide how best money should be used. You can't trust ''normal people'' to spend thier own money right. You must do it for them....you know, for their own good. And keeping your pockets full so you can buy magic items and help save the town from a dragon is good.....

If your a good person that places no value on money then cons have a whole diffrent meaning. For example, Srole the Elf, often cons humans and dwarves out of things.....but he is from a communial society where everyone shares. So he see nothing wrong with getting people to share.

[Tarqiup Inua]

There are plenty of movies with this theme. Usually the plot revolves around ripping of someone who has hurt the protagonist in past - the theme of revenge is prevalent in such setting.

[Ravens_cry]

Like The Sting. An awesome film by the way, well worth watching to this day. I won't spoil anything beyond that, but, really, watch it, ya fallah?