The Pub: Off-topic chat for forum gamers

[Logic]

I will admit that Flea is far more clever than I am. He saw my custom 3-way town game and made the right call on adding true opponents to his version. I am still trying to figure out how to do the setup I have.

[Ramsus]

Bold is a pain for QT? How is <b> and </b> harder than ----- ALL CAPS? I mean, in my case I wouldn't be picky as long as the player is doing something noticeable, but whatever works for the narrator is usually the best plan.

[Count Dingdong]

If you've looked at all at my games, you'll notice that there are like 50-60 different roles, each with a night action (or at least, most have them). I accept PMd night actions, but I realize that the PM limit is horribly, well... limiting. I very much prefer QTs and create them for everyone, so QTs are definitely the way to go. But it is a lot of QTs; I end up with a lot of tabs open when I do end-of-night updates.

A suggestion I'd have to keep everything together: have a narrator QT. At the first night action I receive, I make a post in the narrator QT with a list of night actions. As I receive more and more night actions, I just edit them into that post. That way, you don't have to search through QTs for anything; they're all in one handy dandy notebook! ...I mean QT.

For an example (from Careless Citadel, so I'm not spoiling anything from the current game ):
"Night action records - Night 24
Lex-Kat: AUTO-BANE Penguinator, unless noted
Zar Peter: Careless Kill sparky9042
sparky9042: Careless Kill ef87 <- well. That's rather important.
sparky9042: Recruit Kalrany (150) <- intercepted, which means Kalrany doesn't get any info? Well, it wouldn't change anything...
Gray Mage: Recruitment-Block sparky9042 <- works!
HedgehogRanger: Careful Day-bane sparky9042 <- doesn't matter since he dies :P
Chessgeek: Careful Kill ef87 <- doesn't change much, but makes fewer deaths?
usourselves&we: Unrecruit bladescape <- fails...
Penguinator: Abstain
bladescape: Recruit Kalrany (400) <- fails...
bladescape: Full Scry Chessgeek -> returns "The Brawn", Neutral Night-Killer <- what's with blade and scrying the neutrals..."

I'd give an entire post, but there's some behind-the-scenes stuff in all of these posts that I don't want to get into.

Of course, Careless only has, what, 15 or so people alive at the most that I've had to worry about, but I'd be able to handle them all even if, say, everyone was in the game from the beginning. It would be a hassle, and a WHOLE lot of night actions to resolve, but since I'm recording them as they happen and keeping track of how they interact (and there have been some weird power interactions... >.>), it's not horribly difficult.

Also, bolding isn't horribly difficult on QTs. You just need to remember to do angle brackets (<>) instead of square brackets ([]) around the b and /b.

((...and people have already ninja'd me with some of this stuff. Still, a narrator QT is a good way to go to keep track of everything. ))

[Askthepizzaguy]

Bold is a pain for QT? How is <b> and </b> harder than ----- ALL CAPS? I mean, in my case I wouldn't be picky as long as the player is doing something noticeable, but whatever works for the narrator is usually the best plan.

I use my own annoyance gauge as an indicator- I have a fairly easy time typing things, especially things that I use repetitively, yet after all my years of being on quicktopic, I still miss the keys necessary to do that particular code, so I have to stop typing and look at the keyboard, and sometimes I forget if it's slash or backslash.

On the other hand, the caps lock key is easy to find, and on most keyboards, you can type a dash by simply hitting the minus sign on the number pad.

----------HEYEHEYEHEXAMPLE TEXT

versus <b>heyeyeyehexample text</b>

Just typing out both of those, it took me five times longer to do the latter, and I had to look at the keyboard.

That is irritating as heck, to me... and I am aware my typing speed is much better than the average person, and I'm trying to keep their needs in mind. One of my closest friends in particular has trouble typing but is an otherwise really brilliant mafia player, and keyboard craziness and bb code really is a stumbling block for some.

I would accept either, but for those that use quicktopic bold often, it will be harder for me to find their orders if they use bold elsewhere in their posts.

Anyway, it's a minor, minor thing, but I absolutely loathe the way quicktopic uses code. If there were buttons, like there is for forum posts, it would be a different matter entirely, but I wouldn't ask my players to shell out money for the professional version of quicktopic, and it feels like a real pain for certain players to be forced to type QT's code to bold their orders.

This is a lot more words than is probably warranted for such a minor issue... brevity is not my strong point.

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Also, bolding isn't horribly difficult on QTs. You just need to remember to do angle brackets (<>) instead of square brackets ([]) around the b and /b.

et tu, Count?

Am I the only one who is more than mildly irritated by qt's code?

[Count Dingdong]

Well, I'm a coder, and it's just html, so... it's not horrible for me. But there are some things that I have to play around with to see how they work and mess around with things. For example, I found out that you can even do fonts in QT! Woo! ...but I do realize that it's a pain for people who aren't used to it. That's why I don't require it! Or anything special! I just keep notes in my narrator's QT, so everything's all together and not scattered across QTs.

I figure that if you require players to do something, there will come a time when they forget to follow whatever fancy rules you give them. I might <b>bold</b> an action in QT instead of doing the -----ALLCAPS, since it's a bit more automatic for me. Maybe I'm just odd, but it seems like the narrator should always have some way of keeping things straight. Even elsewhere where I run games through PM, I keep a notebook of all the moves and make sure that everything's correct. Looking through PMs for actions is probably about as much of a hassle to me as looking through QTs. If that's your only problem, just compile the actions elsewhere.

((also, as a reference, I type out this forum's code instead of using the buttons, anyway... so not having buttons doesn't annoy me. What does annoy me is table code... >.>))

[Internet Flea]

I will admit that Flea is far more clever than I am. He saw my custom 3-way town game and made the right call on adding true opponents to his version. I am still trying to figure out how to do the setup I have.

A lot of that is because I saw the many-sided-mirror-match long before in Magic 4, where the lynch just went around in a big circle because everyone was always outnumbered.

Am I the only one who is more than mildly irritated by qt's code?

I post over at TwentySided a lot, which uses the same code, so I'd be more irritated trying to get the number of dashes right. If I -----BANE on Night 1 and then I ------BANE on Night 2 it'll bother me until I die..
Although I'm still on break so I probably wouldn't be playing anyway.

[Legato Endless]

I use my own annoyance gauge as an indicator- I have a fairly easy time typing things, especially things that I use repetitively, yet after all my years of being on quicktopic, I still miss the keys necessary to do that particular code, so I have to stop typing and look at the keyboard, and sometimes I forget if it's slash or backslash.

On the other hand, the caps lock key is easy to find, and on most keyboards, you can type a dash by simply hitting the minus sign on the number pad.

----------HEYEHEYEHEXAMPLE TEXT

versus <b>heyeyeyehexample text</b>

Just typing out both of those, it took me five times longer to do the latter, and I had to look at the keyboard.

That is irritating as heck, to me... and I am aware my typing speed is much better than the average person, and I'm trying to keep their needs in mind. One of my closest friends in particular has trouble typing but is an otherwise really brilliant mafia player, and keyboard craziness and bb code really is a stumbling block for some.

I would accept either, but for those that use quicktopic bold often, it will be harder for me to find their orders if they use bold elsewhere in their posts.

Anyway, it's a minor, minor thing, but I absolutely loathe the way quicktopic uses code. If there were buttons, like there is for forum posts, it would be a different matter entirely, but I wouldn't ask my players to shell out money for the professional version of quicktopic, and it feels like a real pain for certain players to be forced to type QT's code to bold their orders.

This is a lot more words than is probably warranted for such a minor issue... brevity is not my strong point.

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et tu, Count?

Am I the only one who is more than mildly irritated by qt's code?

I find it tedious. Enough that I would appreciate the freedom to caplock. But I don't code, and remain slightly below average in the demographic of nerdy twenty somethings in terms of tech saavy.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I escaped from being a twenty-something a year and a half ago.

[Legato Endless]

Huh, I had you pegged around 36. Though I do feel slightly strange when I hear about a forum user being 15, there's an odd tonal disconnect. Which is strange because I don't feel that when interacting with teens in real life, but that might be me showing my age.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Some people may experience the physical trappings of immaturity, but their minds are more developed. In such a case, they appear to be well-adjusted and fully capable adults online, where all you can see is their avatar, and all you hear are their thoughts.

I was like that as a teen, and now as an adult, I sometimes seem older than I am.

I look young, though. I could pass for 23.


<-------Not my avatar, though. He can't even pass for good or neutral-aligned.

Say hello to Belpatine, everyone. I made this avatar myself.

[Duck999]

Say hello to Belpatine, everyone. I made this avatar myself.

Nice.

The thing about a forum is that people act different when talking to someone directly versus over the internet. I act much differently in real life than on the internet. In real life, I probably would never have talked to anyone here (due to me not liking being social with people I don't know well).

[Askthepizzaguy]

Online I am the super-active super-aggressive talk to everyone network with everyone kind of guy. In mafia I am two-faced when necessary, and lie easily.

IRL I don't do a whole lot, I'm very not aggressive, I'm not comfortable meeting new people and maintaining friendships is tough, and I keep my network down to one or two people, tops. I'm quiet, never raise my voice at people, and am thoroughly anti-violent and trust and honor are both extremely important to me. I'm TERRIBLY shy.

My online persona is everything my real life is not.

[Saposhiente]

On the other hand, the caps lock key is easy to find

I disabled my caps lock key. It's been funny--I've seen games interpret it as crazy things like left click or the mysterious "none" key--I suppose it's the opposite of the "any" key.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You disabled your caps lock key? On the internets?

How are you going to shout with narcissistic rage at people who are stupid and must be shouted at? This is like leaving home to go buy some ice cream without carrying an uzi- utterly unthinkable.

this is not how I really feel. This is satire, or irony, or somesuch.

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this is not how I really feel. This is satire, or irony, or somesuch.

Wait... how did that get there?

[Zack]

A suggestion I'd have to keep everything together: have a narrator QT. At the first night action I receive, I make a post in the narrator QT with a list of night actions. As I receive more and more night actions, I just edit them into that post. That way, you don't have to search through QTs for anything; they're all in one handy dandy notebook! ...I mean QT.

Why not just use a spreadsheet? Any host should have one with the game's setup anyways.

[Count Dingdong]

Why not just use a spreadsheet? Any host should have one with the game's setup anyways.

Eh. I don't like spreadsheets. I like it better on a night-by-night basis. Especially when I've got people dying and coming back as different roles and whatnot. I've got other areas where I keep track of who's alive, what roles are left/living/dead/won/etc, and what fonts people have. If it works for you, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Spreadsheets aren't my thing.

But yeah, whatever works for you, do it. I figure that a narrator QT will help, especially as pizza's got a co-narrator. That's why I started one for my first game, and I liked it enough that I kept making one for notes for future games.

[Zack]

I don't see how any of those things are easier with a QT than a spreadsheet (I would actually think the opposite).

[Count Dingdong]

Oh, I only do night actions with the QT. Everything else is color-coded or in a list on a separate document. It may be weird or unwieldy, but it's how I do it. A spreadsheet could work, but I never really like the looks of them.

Though, when you sometimes have people doing 2-5 actions per night (most actions in a night so far was 20, with four people doing 3 actions each), it's sometimes more difficult to fit everything into a spreadsheet, especially when many things are one-use. And sometimes I just need my notes to go along with the night due to odd interactions. I don't like putting notes in spreadsheets. Especially when it's, say, an explanation of how redirects and voids interact with each other when they occur at the "same" time. At times, there just ends up being more than the two axes for a spreadsheet, and I'm not sure how I'd fit everything in... >.>

[Peebles]

I've hosted a a game on a forum with a 10PM limit before - safe to say that causes some problems.

I like spreadsheets myself. Tables of statistics are fun, though I imagine they don't work for every game type. As for a method of highlighting actions or votes, I doubt it really matters as long as it's obvious to everyone. I'm not a fan of ALLCAPS though - it's ugly and shouty.

I think most online personas are somewhat different from reality. I, for example, am not a hyperactive four year old jacked up on sugar in real life.

[Alarra]

Another option is having pms sent to your email. Then just clear out your pm box often and use the emails to remember/see who sent what. But I'm fond of spreadsheets.

[Tris]

I've never run a game, but as a player, for complicated games like the Careless ones, having a QT is an useful way to refer to everything that's happened without having to search through pms.

[Askthepizzaguy]

QT-based hosting technology assimilated. We are pizzaguy, your cultural distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futon.

[Peebles]

I had a new idea for my first WW here, in part because Adventure Time felt too tough to balance, and part because I've been trawling ancient threads on this subforum and though World Espionage looked interesting. Plus, Discworld is an excellent setting. Any Discworld fans on here?

I've structured the game for twenty players, but could pretty easily go up or down in blocks of four players by adding or removing factions. There are plenty more Ankh-Morpork societies and groups I can call on, after all.

The idea isn't fully fleshed out yet, but some feedback on the mechanics would be useful.

Guild Wars Ankh-Morpork WW

Story Synopsis
Lord Vetinari has gone missing, and Ankh-Morpork is going to hell in a hand-basket without him! Guilds and factions across the city are arguing over the silliest of things, and famous and infamous locations alike are falling into chaos on both sides of the Ankh. Which Guild will come out on top?

Rules
This WW game is for 20 players, split into five Guilds of four players:

- Assassins Guild
- The Watch
- Faculty of the Unseen University
- Thieves Guild
- The Grand Trunk Semaphore Company

Each Guild has two named roles with special powers, and two generic roles with no special powers.

At the beginning of the game four locations in Ankh-Morpork are open, and each player chooses their starting location before the game begins:

- Unseen University
- The Shades
- The Mended Drum
- The Dysk Theatre

Factions do not start the game knowing each other.

Locations will be closed as the game goes on. Three locations will be available when twelve players remain, and two locations will be available when we get down to the last six players.

Day phases and night phases will both last approximately 48 hours.

Players will be autolynched after two days of day phase inactivity, whether they have submitted night actions or not.

PM's are allowed.

Day Phase
During the day players vote to lynch someone – if they’re in the same location as their target their lynch vote counts double.

When a player is lynched, their role, faction, and location at time of death will be revealed.

Night Phase
During the night phase, all players can utilise one of the following actions:

Kill - Name a target to try and kill. The kill action will only work if both killer and target are in the same location at the beginning of the night phase.
Spy - Spy on a target to learn their faction, location or role.
Travel - Travel to a location that you are not currently in.
Lie Low - Rebuff the first kill attempt that would otherwise succeed for this night phase.

Some named roles have extra powers as specified, which they can use instead of the standard actions listed above.

Roles

Assassins Guild

Lord Downey
Can kill his target no matter their location.
Jocasta Wiggs
Alternative Night Action: Clueless Spy - A Spy action, where all Assassins except Jocasta get the result.

The Watch

Blackboard Monitor Vimes
Alternative Night Action: Arrest - Vimes can prevent one target from taking any actions in this night phase, no matter their location.
Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson
No-one can Lie Low to avoid the justice of Captain Carrot!

Unseen University

Archchancellor Mustrum Ridcully
Day vote counts as three if either Ridcully or his target is located in the Unseen University.
Ponder Stibbons
When Spying, Ponder receives two facts about the target rather than one.

Thieves Guild

Josiah Boggis
Can Spy and Lie Low in the same night phase.
Bengy ‘Lightfoot’ Boggis
When someone tries to Spy on Bengy to find out his role or faction, he always appears to be a generic role from the Spy's faction.

The Grand Trunk Semaphore Company

Adora Belle Dearheart
Her day vote always counts double, whether her target is in her location or not.
Of The Twilight The Darkness
Can Travel and Lie Low in the same night phase.

Game End
The last Guild standing wins!

[Ramsus]

Well I love Discworld and those rules certainly seem more fun than the previous version of that game type I've played. I do have to ask though, is there a specific reason for half the players to not have special abilities? It seems like it would be more fun for people to have something special, even if it's something rather minor, than nothing.

[reaverb]

I think that Discworld ruleset has the same "fractions have little incentive to act differently than each other, there is no overall goal for Day chat" problem the Rock/Paper/Scissors rules had.

A much more mild glitch I found humorous: Optimal play for Jocasta Wiggs is to use Clueless Spy on themselves and network their fraction N1.

[Peebles]

Well I love Discworld and those rules certainly seem more fun than the previous version of that game type I've played. I do have to ask though, is there a specific reason for half the players to not have special abilities? It seems like it would be more fun for people to have something special, even if it's something rather minor, than nothing.

Discworld just gives a narrator creativity in spades. I'm already thinking the game could be ste even better in Lancre, where you could have the young and old witches, the wee free men, the fey, and others standing off against each other.

No specific reason - I could always come up with more minor buffs for other characters. I'd have difficulty naming four characters from the Thieves Guild though, so it may necessitate a change of faction.

I think that Discworld ruleset has the same "fractions have little incentive to act differently than each other, there is no overall goal for Day chat" problem the Rock/Paper/Scissors rules had.

Would specific win conditions for each faction help the first problem? The Assassins Guild could be tasked with taking out a list of named characters, The Watch would need to take out all Thieves and Assassins etc. If that would solve it, I don't think I'd have much issue in coming up with a balanced set of win conditions.

As for the second, there's no more or less incentive to post during the day as any other WW game, is there? There is still a lynch vote, and whilst there'll be a load of night actions flying about, the lynch is still a useful tool. I'll take a closer look at the RPS WW conversation and try and resolve I guess.

A much more mild glitch I found humorous: Optimal play for Jocasta Wiggs is to use Clueless Spy on themselves and network their fraction N1.

Okay, so a note that Spy actions cannot be self-targetted would stop this, pretty obvious now I look at it.

I guess I should also have mentioned that the players who have traveled during the night phase will be announced at the start of the day phase, as will any roles (not players) that make a successful kill. Give players a little information to go on outside of their night actions.

Does anyone think that Lord Downey is a bit too potent? His kill is only blockable by the Lie Low action, and in hindsight this seems a bit much.

[Ramsus]

Yeah, that ability might be a bit much.

I also think the lynch thing wasn't clear, as iirc that wasn't a part of previous games of this type. Even with that difference though, there'd still not be a lot of reason for people to talk publicly whether or not you give the factions themselves goals. I believe you'd need some other kind of mechanic not related to the factions to encourage talking during the day. This could be in the form of events or larger secondary factions or other such things. Though of course that adds some serious changes to the game itself that need to be carefully considered for balance.

[Peebles]

Hmmm, yeah, I'll put Lord Downey on the 'to be reviewed' list.

Ah, from that, and reading reaver's comments on Logic's WW game, I now fully understand the day phase concern. With no specific wolf team, day phases lack direction, as each faction just wants to avoid hitting their own side. Too much stuff happening in the night phase and behind the scenes, whilst the day phase is a bit of a wash.

Not really sure what to do about that to be honest, as a multi-faction game by definition removes the 'obvious bad guy' group that gives true WW structure to day phase discussions. Secondary factions would complicate matters exponentially, and quite honestly I don't think I'm capable of either balancing or running such a set-up. Daily events however could be an option to keep some investment in the day phase, and there's any number of things I could pinch from Discworld for material.

The issue with that is,even though it encourages participation in the day phase, and I can give some in-game benefit for doing so in terms of extra night actions or unique powers, it doesn't give a traditional tactical focus to the day phase, which is what I think reaverb is looking for.

[Ramsus]

Well you could have the events deal with some kind of secondary win conditions for individuals or something. People tend to be active when "more winning" is involved.

[Legato Endless]

Ah, from that, and reading reaver's comments on Logic's WW game, I now fully understand the day phase concern. With no specific wolf team, day phases lack direction, as each faction just wants to avoid hitting their own side. Too much stuff happening in the night phase and behind the scenes, whilst the day phase is a bit of a wash.

Not really sure what to do about that to be honest, as a multi-faction game by definition removes the 'obvious bad guy' group that gives true WW structure to day phase discussions. Secondary factions would complicate matters exponentially, and quite honestly I don't think I'm capable of either balancing or running such a set-up. Daily events however could be an option to keep some investment in the day phase, and there's any number of things I could pinch from Discworld for material.

The issue with that is,even though it encourages participation in the day phase, and I can give some in-game benefit for doing so in terms of extra night actions or unique powers, it doesn't give a traditional tactical focus to the day phase, which is what I think reaverb is looking for.

What you're probably either going to need to do is to scrap the lynch entirely and replace it with a different mechanic people will jockey for, since without a wolf faction it's doesn't really gel with most set ups. A genuine battle royal doesn't play nice with majority rules execution. Or there's the more traditional alternative of having multiple factions but the vast majority of them want to get rid of a mutually belligerent scum faction, regardless of whatever other aims they have. Then have the factions given divergent enough goals to function somewhat differently.