MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As for titans, I'd like to say two things. Firstly, if they have this alternate name "Empyrean", then you might want to mention that in the first posts next to Titan to make it easier to search.

I may add empyrean as it's own, actually, and just mention that it is a 5E creature and thus too late to be MitD. From what was said in the first mention, it seems that their whole origin story was changed, so it is not really comparable to the 3.5 version.

GW

[Brumagris]

Link to the 3.5 version of the Titan


No, they are not. They are about the size of Large characters (Ogre), not Huge (Titan).


But we have no indication that MitD is well known.


Not at all? Rich did kill all the Greek Gods.


No, titans cannot cast wish anymore than they can cast teleport.

Grey Wolf

I am sorry if I did not put the right word about the eyes. I am not familiar with the sizes in D&D, yet the eyes in the MITD are bigger than human.

We have indication that the MiTD gotta be recognized by readers that are not that much into D&D once unveiled. That, as exposed before, narrows the search to mytological creatures and some other well known entries from the monsters manual.

I don´t understand your comment about the Greek gods. in the comic they were killed by the Snarl, true, but... does that make them any less gods? Does that diminish the powers of the titans as almost god like? Honestly, I don´t think so. As we saw with the Snarl and reading D&D based fantasy books, being a God doesn´t mean being unbeatable or even inmortal. Yet they are still powerful enough to create universes.


I edit, after reading the 3.5 version description: it can shapeshift into smaller creatures without losing his attack, plus he can cast portal and reverse portal, about the teleport, that is the point that requires an out of the box approach...

Could that be an alternate use of the portal spell?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

We have indication that the MiTD gotta be recognized by readers that are not that much into D&D once unveiled. That, as exposed before, narrows the search to mytological creatures and some other well known entries from the monsters manual.

We do not actually. Some people believe that this is the case, but it is by no means necessary.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I am sorry if I did not put the right word about the eyes. I am not familiar with the sizes in D&D, yet the eyes in the MITD are bigger than human.

But not as big as a Titan's.

We have indication that the MiTD gotta be recognized by readers that are not that much into D&D once unveiled. That, as exposed before, narrows the search to mytological creatures and some other well known entries from the monsters manual.

No, we don't. There is no reason to believe MitD is recognisable or famous and Rich has never hinted at all in that direction. Saying that he expects someone to figure it out actually suggests he doesn't expect everyone to do so - hinting that, if anything, it will be a very obscure creature.

I don´t understand your comment about the Greek gods.

You said that "God likes in classic Greek culture" (which is not a real sentence, but I took to mean the author had a likeness for Greek gods), and I countered such assertion by pointing out that if he liked them that much, he would not have slaughtered them in flashback. Nothing more, nothing less. Defending a Greek mythological creature with "Rich likes greek mythology" requires significant evidence back-up.

Edit: Come to think of it, it seems you meant god-like. In which case, I misunderstood your point. Feel free to ignore this - I answer your points about titans being god-like below.

in the comic they were killed by the Snarl, true, but... does that make them any less gods?

Yes, a dead god is less than a living god.

Does that diminish the powers of the titans as almost god like?

Titans in 3.5 are not godlike. They are, as per the link I gave you, CR 21 which is a significant challenge, but they are not deities, they don't grant spells and they don't have access to wish.

Honestly, I don´t think so. As we saw with the Snarl and reading D&D based fantasy books, being a God doesn´t mean being unbeatable or even inmortal. Yet they are still powerful enough to create universes.

So? They are also immune to mind control, so no deity can be MitD anyway.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

Let me try another experiment on how well another copyrighted monster matches the MitD. This time, it's Tomator, supreme ruler of Crouton, from Lost Vikings, the platformer video game on SNES and other systems.

In the game, Tomator cannot be harmed by Baelog's sword and arrow attacks, which are the main method the player uses to defeat monsters in this game. This shows that Tomator has good defence to ordinary weapon attacks, which explains why Miko and Belkar didn't harm him. Tomator is hurt by Baelog's fire arrow attack (which kills most monsters in one shot) when his shield is off. When he's hit by a fire arrow this way, his facial expression shows pain, but he cannot be killed by this alone. Tomator is pushed back by Eric's charge headbutt attack (which deals damage to most monsters), but he also cannot be killed that way. The heroes harm Tomator by pushing him into laser beams (fatal to most monsters), at which point he teleports aways. We can't tell for sure whether the laser beams could kill Tomator, but they certainly seem to hurt him.

Tomator teleports himself in the boss level four times, but he doesn't seem to have an unlimited teleportation ability, because he cannot teleport back to the ship when he is finally defeated. Perhaps he can teleport only a limited number of times, or his teleport ability is plot-related. It's possibly though that the teleportation isn't an intrinsic ability to him, nor coming from a technological item he has, but is tied to the spaceship instead. Tomator seems to be teleporting the heroes on the Arena level twice, but this too could be coming from the spaceship or the level. It would be best if Tomator had a teleport ability that he can use for only plot-significant causes, for that would explain the Escape scene, but that's probably too much to hope for.

Tomator's appearance is a large blue-skinned orc with pointy ears wearing a red vest, necktie, sandals, and holding a large gun. This is bad news of course, because it means he wouldn't look unrecognizable for a circus audience, though at least he might be too large for an orc. He might have a nose and no fangs, but more likely those are just differences in the illustration style and would not carry over to the OotS world. When he's pushed out the airlock, you get to see him in portrait (the graphics may differ slightly between the ports). At that point you can clearly see he has two eyes and some teeth in his mouth. Tomator is about two and a half times a high as the three human heroes, which means he is probably large size in DnD terms, so he could fit under the umbrella.

Tomator's arms seem to have lots of muscle, which may indicate that he's very strong. Although in the game he is attacking the heroes with his gun, I imagine he could hit hard bare-handed if he needed to. Punching a horse through a stone wall and making a horse-shaped hole is probably an exaggeration for almost any monster, but still, I wouldn't dare to have a fist-fight with him. As for the earthquake, the spaceship shakes occasionally, but that's probably because of explosions, not because of Tomator stomping.

(Update.) Tomator comes from a two-dimensional game that contains a few block-pushing puzzles so the heroes can push boxes the same size as they are, but they can't pull them (except using large magnetic crane machines). If this is a property of the world, it could explain why the MitD says he's a lot better in pushing than pulling.

The game says “Tomator, the evil Croutonian ruler, is collecting unique life forms to display in his gallery.” That is why he's collected the heroes at the start of the game with his spaceship. Tomator himself says “Silly Vikings, don't you know that all evil space aliens need innocent prisoners!” (The dialog is in all capitals, so that could be “Evil”.)

Tomator is defeated when the heroes push him out of the spaceship to space. They win the game this way, but Tomator might not be dead, given that the heroes have spent the game traveling to different worlds through time and space by jumping into windows to space and magically falling to a different galaxy. If the MitD was Tomator, then I would like to assume that Tomator fell to the world of Order of the Stick long before the start of the story, but during the fall he has suffered hypoxia and amnesia, which is why he doesn't recall his previous identity as the ruler of Crouton. Note that the first time the heroes have left Tomator's spaceship, they fell to a jungle, and the MitD was also found in a jungle. The sequel game Lost Vikings 2 (released in 1997) shows that Tomator has survived, but I consider the sequel as not canon for the purpose of this discussion (because it's a worse game than the original).

Tomator appears in a video game first released in 1993 by Blizzard, so he's existed before strip #100 and wasn't invented by Rich. However, he is unlikely to appear in OotS due to coming from a copyrighted source.

[Brumagris]

But not as big as a Titan's.


No, we don't. There is no reason to believe MitD is recognisable or famous and Rich has never hinted at all in that direction. Saying that he expects someone to figure it out actually suggests he doesn't expect everyone to do so - hinting that, if anything, it will be a very obscure creature.


You said that "God likes in classic Greek culture" (which is not a real sentence, but I took to mean the author had a likeness for Greek gods), and I countered such assertion by pointing out that if he liked them that much, he would not have slaughtered them in flashback. Nothing more, nothing less. Defending a Greek mythological creature with "Rich likes greek mythology" requires significant evidence back-up.

Edit: Come to think of it, it seems you meant god-like. In which case, I misunderstood your point. Feel free to ignore this - I answer your points about titans being god-like below.


Yes, a dead god is less than a living god.


Titans in 3.5 are not godlike. They are, as per the link I gave you, CR 21 which is a significant challenge, but they are not deities, they don't grant spells and they don't have access to wish.


So? They are also immune to mind control, so no deity can be MitD anyway.

Grey Wolf

Agreed on the titans not being godlikes, thank you for reminding me about the mind control. This would fit then with the titan description better, a powerful creature yet controllable.
Would you be kind enough to detail the meaning of CR 21? It would be like a lvl 21 pj?

As per the eyes, we still have the possibility of a titan shifted into a large size creature.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Agreed on the titans not being godlikes, thank you for reminding me about the mind control. This would fit then with the titan description better, a powerful creature yet controllable.
Would you be kind enough to detail the meaning of CR 21? It would be like a lvl 21 pj?

As per the eyes, we still have the possibility of a titan shifted into a large size creature.

CR stands for challenge rating. A CR of 21 means that it is (theoretically) a good match for a party with an average level of around that same number.

[b_jonas]

On a different note, today's strip #971 features Crystal who can punch someone in a way that he flies a large distance. She's similar to the MitD in this. We'll probably find out how Crystal is modified very soon, eg. he could be an undead or construct, or raised and living but magically altered. We can then wildly speculate on what this could mean about the MitD.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On a different note, today's strip #971 features Crystal who can punch someone in a way that he flies a large distance. She's similar to the MitD in this. We'll probably find out how Crystal is modified very soon, eg. he could be an undead or construct, or raised and living but magically altered. We can then wildly speculate on what this could mean about the MitD.

It is hardly exclusive to Crystal, undead, or constructs. Roy has done it, and so has a cat when decked with a +4 (possibly +6) belt of giant strength.

GW

[Qwertystop]

At most, that's one more thing to add to the list of reasons we can't assume the knockback was meaningful (though the distance was).

[Ron Miel]

You said that "God likes in classic Greek culture" (which is not a real sentence, but I took to mean the author had a likeness for Greek gods), and I countered such assertion by pointing out that if he liked them that much, he would not have slaughtered them in flashback. Nothing more, nothing less. Defending a Greek mythological creature with "Rich likes greek mythology" requires significant evidence back-up.

I think that should have said "God-like in classic Greek culture" meaning: "the ancient Greeks considered it to be a type of god." Nothing to do with what the author likes or dislikes.

[littlebum2002]

OK, I have an idea. I was reading War and XP's, and noticed a quote from Rich about the MitD. He says he left a clue about him in the war scene, which I have heard on the forum (not sure if it has been confirmed by Rich or not) is in the "set-up" scene, where O-Chul's counterpart on Team Evil is the MitD.

Now, this COULD just be hinting at their friendship later, or it COULD be giving maybe a hint as to the identity of the MitD?

[Timy]

OK, I have an idea. I was reading War and XP's, and noticed a quote from Rich about the MitD. He says he left a clue about him in the war scene, which I have heard on the forum (not sure if it has been confirmed by Rich or not) is in the "set-up" scene, where O-Chul's counterpart on Team Evil is the MitD.

Now, this COULD just be hinting at their friendship later, or it COULD be giving maybe a hint as to the identity of the MitD?

Which would be an anti-paladin ? :D

[GreenSerpent]

OK, I have an idea. I was reading War and XP's, and noticed a quote from Rich about the MitD. He says he left a clue about him in the war scene, which I have heard on the forum (not sure if it has been confirmed by Rich or not) is in the "set-up" scene, where O-Chul's counterpart on Team Evil is the MitD.

Now, this COULD just be hinting at their friendship later, or it COULD be giving maybe a hint as to the identity of the MitD?

I'd wager you could assume from that MITD has a really high CON score. But as he's likely an epic monster anyway that draws no new conclusions.

[falsedot]

Not sure if this has been discussed (it's not mentioned in the complete list of mitd appearanced) but in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html the mitd recognises the spells cast by the huecuva as divine. Pretty impresive for a monster that still thinks that xykon has brothers.

That would be a spellcraft check, right?

[Emanick]

Not sure if this has been discussed (it's not mentioned in the complete list of mitd appearanced) but in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html the mitd recognises the spells cast by the huecuva as divine. Pretty impresive for a monster that still thinks that xykon has brothers.

That would be a spellcraft check, right?

The panel's also a fantastic textbook example of what high Intelligence and low Wisdom looks like, if that part of the MitD's supposed stats needs any further support.

[littlebum2002]

Not sure if this has been discussed (it's not mentioned in the complete list of mitd appearanced) but in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html the mitd recognises the spells cast by the huecuva as divine. Pretty impresive for a monster that still thinks that xykon has brothers.

That would be a spellcraft check, right?

You make a valid point, but I'd like to point out that it's probably not too hard to recognize a spell called "Divine Power" as being a Devine spell.

[Keltest]

You make a valid point, but I'd like to point out that it's probably not too hard to recognize a spell called "Divine Power" as being a Devine spell.

this IS the MITD we're talking about.

[Bird]

FWIW, naspratt's kickstarter backer reward shows us another example of the MitD holding things--in this case, playing cards. As usual, it's not clear how he's holding them, but if he had a normal hand, I figure that's how he'd do it.

[Codyage]

I checked in my book today at the illusion sequence to see if the one dream would have any hints to the MitD. The scene shows the Order, the Sapphire Guard, and the MitD all holding cups.

[rweird]

I checked in my book today at the illusion sequence to see if the one dream would have any hints to the MitD. The scene shows the Order, the Sapphire Guard, and the MitD all holding cups.

I don't believe that the illusions of a group of characters who don't know what the MitD is (which is intended to be their dream come true, despite including things that will never happen), is a good thing to base our understanding of the MitD off of.

[SirKazum]

In any event, I thought the fact that the MitD can hold stuff was pretty well-established, so I guess it's moot.

[Lombard]

This may or may not be a clue but I've got a few minutes to burn so why not.

Panel 12. Lol check out this description from rainbowbrite.net. Remind you of anyone?

Lurky is Murky Dismal's awkward, bumbling assistant. He is much larger than Murky, is usually found hovering over him, and is always getting in the way. Lurky does a good job at being bad, but somehow it just isn't in him. He dutifully helps his boss with all sorts of dastardly doings because he doesn't know any better. Murky Dismal tries to keep a little gray cloud over Lurky's head to keep him unhappy. But sometimes, when Lurky moves too fast (which isn't very often), the cloud can't keep up with him, and he becomes vulnerable. He finds himself fascinated by Rainbow Brite's colors or getting caught up in the Sprites' cheerful attitudes. But soon Murky Dismal finds him or the gray cloud catches up with him, and then he is once again transformed into the (almost lovable) gloomy gus that seems to be his lot in life.

So, for the sake of argument let's say that there was something to that panel beyond The Giant just being funny by bringing up Rainbow Brite of all things. If so we might infer that MiTD is analogous in some way to Lurky. Perhaps the description is simply apt. Perhaps MiTD looks like Lurky. Perhaps MiTD is Lurky in a gross copyright violation that doesn't jibe with the powers.

At the same time MiTD does refer to Lurky in the 3rd person and MiTD in the dark all the time... In the show the villains were often capturing the color-centric rainbow crew by inflicting darkness and/or stealing their colors. Continuing 'for the sake of argument', then perhaps the MiTD is something very colorful! That probably includes a fair number of things (half-prismatic dragon?) but not everything.

[LordotTrinkets]

Ok, I'd like to put my two-bits into this by analyzing what height MiTD is. First up, I'm going to ignore the size of his eyes as I see ambiguity there (i.e. might be a medium size creature with dough-eyes, to play up to his childish nature)

Let's start with tracks, I see four kinds of tracks out there worth considering: Slither (snake track), bipedal, quadrupedal, and wheel (I'm going to outright ignore this, since that would automatically qualify him as a construct). exceptions about, but most would fit As has been previously stated, we're sticking with medium and large, so I'm going to pair these sizes with different tracks and see if there are any contradictions.

Slither: I don't find this one not likely if impossible from previous data. I'm no expert with wildlife, but the most common slither track out there is from a snake, and aside from width, snake tracks are rather indestinct (rendering an "I can't recognize them" remark poorly worded and misleading at best). And strictly speaking, a creature that slithers as its primary mode of movement can't 'stomp' the ground. It could 'slap' or 'slam' the ground, but not 'stomp'. MiTD could of course, have hairy tail, but that would nonetheless narrow the search.

Bipedal: Long story short, this would almost certainly limit things to medium. The way that a large, bipedal creature would stand under the umbrella/box would require him to crouch constantly, which would result in him having serious back-problems. We've never heard any complaints about his back hurting or even the confines being cramped, so I think we can rule Large out here for even creatures with irregular backs. More about irregular backs, even if MiTD's back were more tentacle-like, there would still be complaints of discomfort.

Quadrupedal: Medium possible, but not likely. A creature like a centaur (Large) would stand about where MiTD's eyes are, but I have doubts about a medium creature of such. Using boars as a reference point, I don't think that there's many if any creatures that have these two criteria that CAN have eyes up there (barring something like a tauric boar-orc [I hereby dub this a 'Boark'] or another such templated creature).

Edit: So in short, MitD can be a Medium Biped, or more likely a Large quadruped than Medium.

That's pretty much all I have to say right now, and I really feel like Vaarsuvius now.

[b_jonas]

the most common slither track out there is from a snake, and aside from width, snake tracks are rather indestinct (rendering an "I can't recognize them" remark poorly worded and misleading at best)

There are still lots of fantasy monsters out there with unusual modes of transport that I'm not sure your categorization counts anywhere. We can probably discount moving plants and oozes because of the mind control, but there are giant spiders and centipedes and wurms with hundreds of legs, giant brains and tentacled horrors, walking trees, monsters that burrow and swim inside the ground including sandworms, monsters that just quickly slide forward in the desert with breakneck speeds like sandworms when they don't dare to burrow under the sand because their riders are keeping an open wound on its back, and monsters that look like a tree stump with a bunny on top. For many monsters, we don't even know how they move. If you count these in the "slither", then most of them don't have snake-like tracks. Most likely you just forgot to count them anywhere.

If you want a concrete example, take the Earthquaker. We know that they leave unrecognizable tracks on the ground, but we don't know its mode of transport or body shape, and I don't think we can even be sure it doesn't have legs. (It's also not a good match for the MitD because of the escape scene.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Edit: So in short, MitD can be a Medium Biped, or more likely a Large quadruped than Medium.

Your analysis does not follow. Primarily because you based it on the fact that Belkar could not recognise the tracks. Since you did not include in your analysis that, at the time, MitD was dragging a table an a bunch of stuffed toys (and possibly a stunned paladin), the logic about tracks falls apart.

snake tracks are rather indestinct

No, they are not. They are distinct as any other set of tracks, if you know about snakes: you can easily obtain size and speed, and frequently a good idea of the species. Just like any other set of tracks.

The way that a large, bipedal creature would stand under the umbrella/box would require him to crouch constantly, which would result in him having serious back-problems.

Wrong. Many bipedal large creatures (troll come to mind) naturally crouch.

A creature like a centaur (Large) would stand about where MiTD's eyes are, but I have doubts about a medium creature of such.

What about eyestalks? Long necks? An the infinite other variations? In short, this does not follow.

Grey Wolf

[LordotTrinkets]

All noted. Like I said, I'm no expert on wildlife nor aberrant life at that.

[DavidBV]

After just re-reading the whole books, a couple ideas came to mind, related with the MITD species recognition by Team Evil.

Quoting 1i:

Spoiler: Show

Show

Why wasn't MitD suspected for the escape beyond the demon roaches? RC, the resident know-it-all and most likely to connect the dots was not present for the escape - he used Word of Recall and only returned once the action was over. We also do not know how much Xykon knows about MitD. We only have MitD's word that Xykon knows what he is, and even then, given Xykon's attitude towards book knowledge, he probably only knows MitD's species name and the fact that he is strong, and thus powerful (power is all Xykon cares about). If so, Xykon would not know MitD can teleport, and likely thinks him too incompetent (and too asleep) to be responsible. All in all, the scene seems carefully orchestrated so that MitD could save O-Chul and V without giving himself away.

But would RC, knowing what a thorough overthinker/planifier he is, completely disregard such capabilities being there? Having around a caged monster that can randomly teleport people ... or maybe cast Wish, is a large risk. Not to mention ignoring such abilities is a waste of resources unseemingly of someone as efficient as RC. It's even more of a waste when we consider MITD has a huge innate spellcraft (or some other way to be able to recognize the ritual by a mere glance, while Tsukiko couldn't even with study).

So either for some reason they're completely careless about the above or... maybe RC (and Xykon) think they know what it is, but they actually they don't exactly know. Maybe it's a creature type very similar to another, and is being mistaken by it. Or it's a subtype, or a special individual which has gained special powers of which Team Evil is not aware of. Such circumstance could have fooled even the big game hunters.

In any case, just pointing out that there's IMHO a big chance the "creature type" description will not explain some of the powers mentioned above, and maybe that's making people discard very good candidates that could be the actual solution.

And in a way, what I am saying is already being applied in the matter of speech. Right now people is looking for a monster that normally can't speak, but satisfies ALL the other features. I believe some other of his powers should be categorized similarly as speech, i.e., probably not part of the core characteristics. It's obvious that appearance, strenght, DR, etc. are those of a certain creature, but Teleport/Wish, ot High spellcraft, I believe should be considered "suspect" of being unique characteristics of this particular individual.

[Throknor]

Simplest explanation is two-fold: Xykon doesn't fully know his capabilities, and Redcloak assumed the wizard got them out. The MITD is shown to be sleeping after and Xykon was was no mood to answer questions. So Redcloak didn't immediately know that Varsuvius couldn't possiblely have done it.

It may be now that the MITD let slip he was worried about O-Chul Redcloak will piece it together, but up until that point he simply didn't stop to wonder. Up until now the MITD has been completely passive and apparently didn't know his own abilities so it might simply not have occurred to Redcloak that he did it. Redcloak wasn't around when the MITD wondered out load why wanting something really hard hadn't worked, a clue to us that he might have known he had the ability but only Tsusiko heard it in story.

[rweird]

Redcloak used Word of Recall and was in the basement when the escape happened. Xykon didn't seem to know about it, although he probably assumed that Vaarsuvius had some trick to teleport away, or at least bought that the MitD was asleep at the time. As RC just lost an eye, and was trying to mobilize the hobgoblins, might not have been thinking to much about exactly how, and didn't want to antagonize Xykon, who was already pissed off, for details. He was told they vanished, but Xykon wanted to get his Phylactery back, which was a more pressing matter. I think Redcloak probably wouldn't want to bring that incident up again for a play-by-play rundown of what transpired.

As the MitD doesn't seem to have knowledge of its powers, RC very well figures that trying to teach him to use them would be more trouble than it is worth (and if it is Wish, the MitD creating some problem with a poorly worded wish if he used his powers seems quite possible).

The escape seems to be just as useful a demonstration of his powers as DR or regeneration (various magic items, feats, magical locations can provide that), high strength (we've seen a cat with a belt of giant's strength punch a wolf through a wall in this comic), or strange appearance (illusions, magic items, spells, form changing abilities, grafts all can do that, as can disfiguring injuries). What determines what traits we believe it has from its creature type, and what from other things?