MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

[Keltest]

Localised on what? On the MitD even if he moves? Or on a specific zone? I know the second one is possible, I'm not sure about the first one.

The fact that shadows are not drawned into the comic except if plot requires it makes me thinks that MitD can conceal in regular shadows. Or turn regular shadows in magical darkness (not sure it would explain why the light archons hiting him would remove the darkness in any case though. Would there be enough light?).

We see MitD at roughly the same position than RC/Xykon/roaches or goblins in the Dungeon of Dorukan (until the escape tunnel) and in Xykon's tower.

Localized on whatever. It doesn't even have to be magical darkness, just an unlit room. The MITD stays in the darkness because Xykon and Redcloak tell it to, not because of any physical restriction on its movement or vulnerability to light.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Localised on what? Or on a specific zone? I know the second one is possible, I'm not sure about the first one.

On a specific zone. I don't want to list every shadow MitD has ever hidden in, so to keep it simple: the one in the throne room is definitely magical (RC said as much), while the in the tower (curtain scene) seems to be just regular shadows.

We see MitD at roughly the same position than RC/Xykon/roaches or goblins in the Dungeon of Dorukan (until the escape tunnel) and in Xykon's tower.

He is behind the throne, in a lower elevation (floor level, whilst the throne is on a podium).

Grey Wolf

[littlebum2002]

Wouldn't that also require it to have a mouth on what would be the side of its head if its neck was not crooked? When drinking the stew here, the stew is going beneath the eyes, similar to where a mouth would be located on a human face relative to their eyes. An Aboleth with a crooked neck would not have a mouth positioned there.

An incredibly complex and completely unnecessary funnel.

[Keltest]

An incredibly complex and completely unnecessary funnel.

I think it would be more like a straw. And because this is MITD, it would be a crazy straw.

[littlebum2002]

I think it would be more like a straw. And because this is MITD, it would be a crazy straw.

Also, it's blue. I hope Grey Wolf is adding all this to the main post.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, it's blue. I hope Grey Wolf is adding all this to the main post.

Not yet. I only update at the end of pages divisible by ten with no reminder. But I will keep it in mind.

Grey Wolf

[Ron Miel]

Not yet. I only update at the end of pages divisible by ten with no reminder. But I will keep it in mind.

Grey Wolf

How many posts is that? (the number of posts per page can be changed)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How many posts is that? (the number of posts per page can be changed)

300. While the number of posts per page can be changed, the mods would prefer it if we didn't. In my specific case, it also makes figuring out when we are close to page 50 a hassle, which can lead to the thread being locked before I've started the new one.

EDIT: Disclaimer: I tell you this not to tell you to change your number of posts (perish the thought!), but to explain why I use number of pages rather than number of posts as indicators of progress.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

So other than acknowledging that it is magical darkness of some kind, it has little effect on this thread except insofar as all such darkness gives, IIRC, 50% chance of missing any attack.

I still find the darkness to be possibly relevant to me.

If the MitD was an Earthquaker, he could remain in the darkness because Redcloak asks him to do that, the darkness could cause him to be docile and sleepy, while still very dangerous and scary when he steps out of the light. Of course, you argued that we've only really seen the MitD sleep twice, so he might not really be sleepy. And it's still hard to explain how an Earthquaker could teleport O-Chul and Vaarsuvius to safety.

All taken together, the Earthquaker isn't a very good candidate, but it still makes me think all the time that the darkness could be relevant somehow, even though in reality its purpose is probably only hiding the identity of the MitD from the characters and the readers.

[littlebum2002]

I personally would be extremely disappointed if the MitD was an obscure creature from an obscure fairy tale from 130 years ago.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I personally would be extremely disappointed if the MitD was an obscure creature from an obscure fairy tale from 130 years ago.

Fair enough, I can understand that, but lets not go down the road of judging proposals based on our disappointment levels. I can't quantify that.

Re: Earthquaker, I'll take another look at him tonight, if I can. I don't think that the canon supports that there is any reason for MitD to be in the darkness other than Xykon's drama sense, but I do like the subtlety of that explanation for the Earthquaker.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

Considering the "cons" for most of them, I have troubles to understand how they fit more than some of the other ideas.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry, I know that may come across as rude, and I don't really intend it as such. Its just that you're *severely* underestimating the difficulty of finding monsters that can even be argued to fit the major categories. As Littlebum points out, there are so many monsters out there, from so many sources, that it seems like finding one with just the right combination of attributes would be a snap, yet this has turned out to not be the case. Which isn't to say that we've searched everything and have no answer. I've checked as many sources as anyone, and as a result of getting back into D&D after a long hiatus (A few weeks ago I DM'ed my first adventure in ~25 years) I've started regularly coming across old sourcebooks I had no idea existed (nothing worth proposing yet). There are *SO MANY* sources for monsters, many of which are obscure or out of print, that I will never be satisfied we've checked every potential source.

As GW notes, the lack of viable candidates ends up being the problem with the Earthquake scene. How exactly does MitD generate the earthquake? First, it is an earthquake, right? Second, the list of monsters which can generate an actual earthquake other than via spell is startlingly small (deciding this might be an interesting way of directing a search for candidates is what led to finding Crystalle, who is a very good, but not great, candidate), and mostly includes either earth elemental-type creatures or creatures that are absolutely gigantic (both of which end up being problematic for various reasons). And while it seems in theory like anything big and strong enough could create its own earthquakes, it ends up being a horrible gray area because of lack of structure. Unlike throwing something through something else, where we have at least the item toughness rules as a guideline, there are, afaik, no rules for creating earthquakes other than via spell. It doesn't seem like it would be that onerous to add "can create an earthquake" as a criteria, it ends up meaning we'd have a list of zero candidates which is a stretch too far.

PS - As an aside, its been a few months, so I'm going to remind everyone to reconsider the Glabrezu for consideration on the FBS list when its time to do such considerations.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

PS - As an aside, its been a few months, so I'm going to remind everyone to reconsider the Glabrezu for consideration on the FBS list when its time to do such considerations.

Isn't he bigger than Huge, though? I'll try to take a look at him tonight as well.

GW

[Keltest]

Isn't he bigger than Huge, though? I'll try to take a look at him tonight as well.

GW

Remind me, whats the basis for not wanting it to be bigger than Huge?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Remind me, whats the basis for not wanting it to be bigger than Huge?

Consensus vote. A size limit was voted upon ("No bigger than large" and "No bigger than Huge", IIRC), and the second got enough support to become part of the FBS requirements. A couple other requirements were voted in at the same time.

GW

[Keltest]

Consensus vote. A size limit was voted upon ("No bigger than large" and "No bigger than Huge", IIRC), and the second got enough support to become part of the FBS requirements. A couple other requirements were voted in at the same time.

GW

Huh, interesting. Without seeing the basis for the vote that seems sort of arbitrary to me, but im sure there was some logic involved somewhere.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Huh, interesting. Without seeing the basis for the vote that seems sort of arbitrary to me, but im sure there was some logic involved somewhere.

It is arbitrary, I'll grant you, but there is a logic to it too. Size, specifically, was "fits under the umbrella" or "fits in the box". I called the vote because (mostly due to Crusher's unending stream of good candidates), we got to a point were we had, IIRC, 14 FBS candidates. I think that the ideal number of FBS candidates is somewhere between 5 and 12: too few, and it makes them seem like the thread has narrowed it down to finalists; too many, and it ceases to be a showcase. So I asked for (and suggested) a few ways to narrow it down. We voted, and the new requirements (5, 6, & 7) were added. Size was the biggest cull: some of the oldest FBS members were finally moved to proposed because of it, including the decapitated Dread Linnorm.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

It is arbitrary, I'll grant you, but there is a logic to it too. Size, specifically, was "fits under the umbrella" or "fits in the box". I called the vote because (mostly due to Crusher's unending stream of good candidates), we got to a point were we had, IIRC, 14 FBS candidates. I think that the ideal number of FBS candidates is somewhere between 5 and 12: too few, and it makes them seem like the thread has narrowed it down to finalists; too many, and it ceases to be a showcase. So I asked for (and suggested) a few ways to narrow it down. We voted, and the new requirements (5, 6, & 7) were added. Size was the biggest cull: some of the oldest FBS members were finally moved to proposed because of it, including the decapitated Dread Linnorm.

Grey Wolf

I see. I assume the fact that the MITD is at the very least smaller than his father was brought up during the vote.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I see. I assume the fact that the MITD is at the very least smaller than his father was brought up during the vote.

Not specifically, but the idea that he is a juvenile of his species is an accepted explanation for the larger creatures. That said, the younger you make the child, the more you struggle to explain the tower scene. I am always willing to consider exceptions - e.g a Huge species with 70 STR, for example, could be argued to have Large children with 30 STR. We haven't had one of those yet, but by all means propose it. But on the other hand, children can only be so small compared to the parent: a colossal parent isn't going to have Large children (babies, maybe, but MItD isn't that bad), and strength quickly is reduced - a human child has less than half the strength of a grown-up.

Grey Wolf

[littlebum2002]

I mean, to be fair, Huge is a bit of a stretch on its own. The smallest a Huge creature can be is 16', and most of what we've seen, the MitD is barely taller than most Normal creatures. I guess you could say he's squatting or something, and that's probably why Huge is allowed, but I don't see any way he could be Gargantuan.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I mean, to be fair, Huge is a bit of a stretch on its own. The smallest a Huge creature can be is 16', and most of what we've seen, the MitD is barely taller than most Normal creatures. I guess you could say he's squatting or something, and that's probably why Huge is allowed

Squatting, not fully grown, runt of the litter, "dad was larger", maybe a couple other reasons I could drag up from my memory... any of those can help explain the species being larger than MitD himself - but the more of them you rely upon, the worse the STR problem becomes.

That said, in the end we allow Huge because we agreed to allow it.

Grey Wolf

[Mordae]

Inexplicably Large Sized (the opposite of goblins and sylphs)?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Inexplicably Large Sized (the opposite of goblins and sylphs)?

I hesitate to use that one until such time as we see a larger creature made smaller, or a lampshade thereof. Everything that should be bigger than human has, as far as I am aware, been the RAW size.

Grey Wolf

[Mordae]

I concur with your assessment, but threw it out there so we could at least discuss the possibility that the Redcloak/Celia explanation works in both directions.

[Magesmiley]

I've been doing some further research and I'd like to bring back up a previously proposed candidate for the MitD: the Dread Linnorm from Monster Manual 2. More specifically, I think that Rich has created an immature version of one.

In the description, it mentions that no young ones have been sighted for centuries (and the stats in the book are for ancient ones). That would imply that younger ones could potentially exist. It also indicates that no good or lawful ones are known to exist (which doesn't necessarily rule good and lawfule ones out and definitely leaves the door open for neutral ones).

I believe that the feat list has been customized slightly as well. However most of the clues seem to be covered by the creature's abilities.

I think that an immature version of a Dread Linnorm can fully cover the big scenes.

Let's tackle the main points:


1) How did [insert suggestion here] punch Miko and her horse through a wall?

First off, in strip 374, we never see Miko and Windstriker actually punched, merely the effect of the attack. I would pose the possibility that they were picked up and thrown (Grapple check to Snatch, and with Miko letting him hit first it seems likely she declined the AoA for initiating a grapple). The Dread Linnorn has a special use of the Snatch feat that allows it to fling creatures 120 feet. Assuming that we're dealing with Masonry (hardness 8 and 90 hp per 10x10 section), it would take only a quarter (23) of the hp to punch a 5x5 hole for Miko and half (45) for a 5x10 for Windstriker. Being flung by a Dread Linnorn deals 12d6 damage to the target. It seems reasonable to apply the same to the structure. Average for 12d6 is 42. MitD would only have to roll slightly high to break through with Windstriker and enough to punch Miko through should be easy.

2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt [insert suggestion here]?

DR 15/magic should cover this pretty well.

3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize [insert suggestion here]?

The Dread Linnorm in the Monster Manual 2 has 20 HD, which would be a DC 30 Knowledge (arcana) check. Assuming maxed ranks and a high intelligence, even a high-level wizard could fail the roll.

4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing [insert suggestion here]?

One of the spell-like abilities of the Dread Linnorm is the ability to use Antipathy twice per day. Assuming that this is targeted at humans, it could account for the bulk of the reactions (making the save allows creatures to stay in the area but they feel uncomfortable) and also explain why the goblin family (and the one other spectator, who might not be human) aren't affected the same way. It also can use Sympathy twice a day, which very well could explain why the goblin family likes him so well. You'll note that the ringmaster only brings him out daily (and indicates you'd have to come back tomorrow), which could be a clue to the limited uses.

5) How did [insert suggestion here] teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?

The Dread Linnorn in the book casts as an 18th-level sorcerer. Easily able to cast the needed spells (even accounting for this being a young one with less spell ability).


MAJOR SCENES

The Circus Scene
As mentioned above, this could be the effect of the creature's antipathy and sympathy spell-like abilities. It isn't terribly clear how long MitD is on-stage before the curtain opens, so he could have created the effects in advance of the curtain opening (the duration is 2 hours/level).

The Escape
Telport (or some variant) from the sorcerer's casting ability.
Note that weather also might be accounted for this way via Control Weather.

The Tower Scene
As mentioned above, the Snatch/fling ability could account for this. The MM2 stats have a Strength of 40 as well.

MitD's Allignment
The alignment is listed as Always Chaotic Evil. However as mentioned above, the general description for Linnorms leaves a bit of wiggle room (MitD has always struck me as neutral).

MitD's Scores
The stat block has a very high STR, CON, WIS, and CHA. The INT is 15. Again, remembering that I'm proposing an immature version, it could account for a lower Wisdom.

(Not) Seeing the Gates
Personally, I'm subscribing to the rule of funny on this one. However, maybe he sees something different.

Recognising MitD
As noted in my intro, no young linnorms have been spotted for centuries. This could account for the hunters' surprise.
Also, the Dread Linnorn is mentioned as being surly and uncommunicative. The surprise at it talking could be due to this.
The revolting/beautiful reaction can be explained by the antipathy and sympathy abilities.

Suspicion of MitD's involvement in the Escape
The 3.5 updated stat block lists a Dread Linnorm as having a +28 Bluff bonus. Pretty easy to pull off a few whoppers with that.

Meaning of Fine Line
I think that this is a pointer that Rich has introduced a 'young' version of an existing monster.


PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS
Age
Again, as I mentioned previously, I believe this to be a young version. But even a young one could be decades or centuries.

Appearance
I'm going to stand with Antipathy/Sympathy as explaining the different reactions.

Body
The Dread Linnorm has a physical body.

Diet
Not mentioned in the MM2 entry, however it is of the dragon type, so it is reasonable to assume it has a fairly flexible diet.

Gender
Not mentioned, but again, being of the dragon type, it seems implied that both males and females exist.

Head
This is one point that seems a bit weaker. A Dread Linnorm has two heads. It could very well be that only one is being shown at a particular time. This could also account for MitD seeming to switch the direction it is facing though. The Dread Linnorm's heads do have two eyes, mouth/teeth, nose, etc (there is an illustration in the book).

Limbs
The Dread Linnorm is snakelike with a pair of forelegs (no wings or back legs). The stomp could've been accomplished with the tail and the Shockwave feat (from Draconomicon).
The pulling on the rope and the manipulation of objects does not necessarily have to come from its forelimbs. One of the creature's at will spell like abilities is telekinesis.
In addition, the creature moves through a combination of walking with its forelegs and snakelike slithering, which is unlike any other tracks I can think of (which might make them tough for Belkar to ID).

Maturity
Again, I'm arguing Rich has created a young version of the creature.

Personal Odor
It is a type of dragon, which probably have an odor of some sort. He could also have access to the stinking cloud spell via his sorcerer casting abilities. And Rich could just be going for a laugh.

Size
Again, a weaker point here. The full adult version is Colossal. I've argued for a young version, which could easily be much smaller (Red Dragons for example span small up through Colossal).

Sleep
Dragons sleep.

Weight
A linnorm's weight isn't listed. However, a Dread Linnorm has fly as an at will spell-like ability. MitD could very easily have been flying and even helping RC lift the box. Telekinesis (also at will) could also help.


ABILITIES
Attack
As noted above, we don't actually see MitD hitting Miko and Windstriker. The Snatch/Throw ability of the Dread Linnorm can account for this.

Defenses
DR 15/magic can account for this.

Earth Cracking
The Shock Wave feat from Draconomicon can explain this.

Knowledge
The MM2 update lists the creature as having Knowledge (arcana) +25 and Spellcraft +27. Probably enoguh to understand the ritual. An Int of 15 isn't too shabby and should be able to pick up Go.

O'Chul's Escape
A full adult has spells for an 18th level sorcerer. Even a lower level is more than sufficient to pull off the teleport. I ascribe to V's missed Dimensional Anchor as being why MitD didn't teleport too.

Psionics
Not needed to explain everything.

Rain
Again, the high level sorcerer casting can explain the weather.

Raising Undead
Check. Doesn't have that spell.

Sight
Linnorm's see as well as dragon (4x what a human can).

Speech
As noted above, the Dread Linnorm's description indicates that they are usually sullen and uncommunicative. They can talk, but usually don't.

Shout
I think this might actually be an ability. The Dread Linnorm can use Power Word Stun three times per day as a spell-like ability.

Summoning Demon Roaches
Not really an important point.

Swallow Whole
Hiding in the Draconomicon is another interesting feat: Snatch and Swallow. With a little customization, a Dread Linnorm can have this feat and be able to swallow creatures.


OTHER
One other ability needs consideration: Dread Linnorms are immune to enchantment spells. Most (but not all) mind affecting spells are from the Enchantment school. So either Xykon used a spell from another school to affect MitD OR since I'm proposing a young version, it may not have developed the ability yet.


So, in summary, I think that a young version of the Dread Linnorm from MM2 is a pretty good candidate. It does have two weak points as noted above, but it can explain nearly everything else (and even the weak points) if you assume that Rich made a young version with custom feats for MitD. And it only needs 2 books to do it (MM2 and Draconomicon, both of which were in print prior to strip 100).

[b_jonas]

If this Dread Linnorm is so young that he is only large sized, would he still be able to snatch a large sized horse and throw him?

[Werbaer]

I've been doing some further research and I'd like to bring back up a previously proposed candidate for the MitD: the Dread Linnorm from Monster Manual 2. More specifically, I think that Rich has created an immature version of one.

According to http://www.lomion.de/cmm/dragldre.php:
- Even for very young, the stated body size is 25'-42', plus the same for the tail.
- Dreads are immune to enchantment and charm spells
- antipathy-sympathy is only available for Great Wyrm

[Timy]

- antipathy-sympathy is only available for Great Wyrm

So this is a very young great wyrm !

[rweird]

I think a problem is that if it were only large, by size adjustment rules, it'd get -24 strength. Also, the Snatch feat (I assume thats what you refer to for the escape), requires the creature to be huge size or larger.

Lastly, Belkar, I believe has magic daggers, so DR 15/magic wouldn't make Belkar's attacks ignorable.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The game was "hit the lightest". Why would MitD grab the horse and throw him, when he had set the rules for the game?

Other than that, what has been mentioned above: even young is too big, and at its smallest, too weak by far. If you gave him extra feats (unclear from your post), that would require him to be HD above and beyond its adult status, further compounding the size problem.

And of course, the Dread Linnorm has two heads and cannot be mind controlled via enchantment.

Grey Wolf