MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

[Quartz]

One of the reasons we've excluded the MitD from being divine is that he gets Charmed, and deities are supposed to be immune to that. However, can an Epic Charm override that immunity?

[Windscion]

If you're going to posit a creature that reverses expectations, you might as well (legal issue aside) posit the Heart of Gold's infinite improbability drive, since it could explain anything. (And the umbrella is actually projecting a SEP field.)

Actually, didn't someone already suggest that?

[rweird]

One of the reasons we've excluded the MitD from being divine is that he gets Charmed, and deities are supposed to be immune to that. However, can an Epic Charm override that immunity?

Not without Ad Hoc modifiers. The only given way to overcome immunity, is for a higher DvR deity to cast the spell.

[ablair]

Not without Ad Hoc modifiers. The only given way to overcome immunity, is for a higher DvR deity to cast the spell.

What if it wasn't a whole god? Wasn't there a 3rd edition module called Dead Gods that had people running around as an aspect of Orcus? Not Orcus, but they had bits and pieces of his power and abilities. A divine aspect of a god, demon lord or prince, or heck even a dead (greek/roman) god, would be satisfyingly obscure, and explain the mixed bag of powers and weaknesses that you see. Knows about the Astral from memory, but can't remember ever going there or how they got there if they had, Greater Teleport without levels or intelligence, and maybe when s/he hit Miyako and sent her flying it wasn't a natural ability, but rather a weapon. We've got a list of dead ends, so this might open up a few more possibilities.

[rweird]

Well, Orcus is a demon prince, not a god. Still, it'd probably violate the "can be figured out" clause unless there are specific rules for creating one of those (although that'd fall under the problem with templates). Wikipedia also says that Dead Gods is a 2nd edition module, so it'd have to be updated (unless it was officially like Tomb of Horrors).

If you want to research this more closely, go ahead, you might find something good, although its probable that no-one else will if you don't.

[Myou]

Well, Orcus is a demon prince, not a god. Still, it'd probably violate the "can be figured out" clause unless there are specific rules for creating one of those (although that'd fall under the problem with templates). Wikipedia also says that Dead Gods is a 2nd edition module, so it'd have to be updated (unless it was officially like Tomb of Horrors).

If you want to research this more closely, go ahead, you might find something good, although its probable that no-one else will if you don't.

Why would it need to be updated?
I don't think there's any real chance that MitD is the Butt of Orcus or something like that, but I don't see why he needs to be something statted out for 3.5 in any case.

[rweird]

It wouldn't necessarily need to be updated, although if it isn't, the MitD should always fail will saves, and it'd bring up the question of why the Talisman of Dourkon didn't bring it to the room of outdated monsters.

I mean that it'd have to be updated to function in 3.5 rules in a way that makes sense. THAC0 vs. 3.5 AC means that the "better" your AC is in one addition, the easier it is for the other edition to hit you. Not having a will save could explain its susceptibility to charm effects.

Still, I'd be surprised if Dead Gods had a monster that can throw horses through walls.

[Myou]

It wouldn't necessarily need to be updated, although if it isn't, the MitD should always fail will saves, and it'd bring up the question of why the Talisman of Dourkon didn't bring it to the room of outdated monsters.

I mean that it'd have to be updated to function in 3.5 rules in a way that makes sense. THAC0 vs. 3.5 AC means that the "better" your AC is in one addition, the easier it is for the other edition to hit you. Not having a will save could explain its susceptibility to charm effects.

Still, I'd be surprised if Dead Gods had a monster that can throw horses through walls.

I don't think Rich has ever said that the MitD would obey the rules of the system in which it was first printed. After all, to take a common sugegstion, Godzilla, he has no stats at all - so technically he can't do aynthing! But Rich would presumably have given him stats suitable to 3.5 if he were being used.

[rweird]

That is my point, if it doesn't have stats in D&D 3.5, it would have to be updated (if it had stats in a previous edition), or given stats (if not).

By "updated," I meant "given rules in D&D 3.5." I feel like you are arguing the same point as I am.

[Myou]

That is my point, if it doesn't have stats in D&D 3.5, it would have to be updated (if it had stats in a previous edition), or given stats (if not).

By "updated," I meant "given rules in D&D 3.5." I feel like you are arguing the same point as I am.

I think we are.
Whn I said it wouldn't need to be updated, I meant officially - Rich would need to update it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Rich would need to update it.

No. That would go against canon. Creatures that were not updated stayed not updated, and were eventually trapped by Dorukan's amulet.

Now, I don't know what this quasi-divine thing is (although it sounds very much like DvR 0), but if Rich is not breaking his own rules for this game (he didn't make it up) and he is staying within the confines of what has been established in the comic ("canon"), then either the rules are the ones printed, or, if they exist, the 3.5 version thereof.

Since all this seems extremely theoretical and I don't even have a link to follow to see for myself, for now I'll just wait for someone else to do the legwork.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

No. That would go against canon. Creatures that were not updated stayed not updated, and were eventually trapped by Dorukan's amulet.

Now, I don't know what this quasi-divine thing is (although it sounds very much like DvR 0), but if Rich is not breaking his own rules for this game (he didn't make it up) and he is staying within the confines of what has been established in the comic ("canon"), then either the rules are the ones printed, or, if they exist, the 3.5 version thereof.

Since all this seems extremely theoretical and I don't even have a link to follow to see for myself, for now I'll just wait for someone else to do the legwork.

Grey Wolf

Well, Dead Gods is 2E and has some funky stuff in it. How exactly does one stat a god/demon prince that dies and comes back? Or something that's *part* of a god? I could certainly see them being updated to being somewhere on the Divinity scale, but I could also see them being stated via some other system (which therefore may or may not confer immunity to mind control).

The biggest problem is two-fold:

- Its aimed at maybe level 8-9 characters, and I don't think it contains anything that's likely a fit
- AFAIK it hasn't been updated for 3.5e. As has been noted, no, its not impossible for a non-updated 2e monsters to be MitD, but as GW_c has noted, its *really* hard. Among other, unstated issues, in 2E the *absolute* cap on stats was, iirc, 25. Like, Odin has a STR of 25. Since we have pegged the absolute floor for MitD's STR at about 30, its going to be hard to make that work out.

[rweird]

Well, Dead Gods is 2E and has some funky stuff in it. How exactly does one stat a god/demon prince that dies and comes back? Or something that's *part* of a god? I could certainly see them being updated to being somewhere on the Divinity scale, but I could also see them being stated via some other system (which therefore may or may not confer immunity to mind control).

The biggest problem is two-fold:

- Its aimed at maybe level 8-9 characters, and I don't think it contains anything that's likely a fit
- AFAIK it hasn't been updated for 3.5e. As has been noted, no, its not impossible for a non-updated 2e monsters to be MitD, but as GW_c has noted, its *really* hard. Among other, unstated issues, in 2E the *absolute* cap on stats was, iirc, 25. Like, Odin has a STR of 25. Since we have pegged the absolute floor for MitD's STR at about 30, its going to be hard to make that work out.

Str 25 was a lot stronger in 2nd though, Titans in 2nd had Str 25 too (but have 43 in 3.5), Odin is Str 32 in 3.5. I could see a 2nd edition creature with a strength of 25 throwing someone through a wall.

[ablair]

Str 25 was a lot stronger in 2nd though, Titans in 2nd had Str 25 too (but have 43 in 3.5), Odin is Str 32 in 3.5. I could see a 2nd edition creature with a strength of 25 throwing someone through a wall.

My thinking was to look for some other alternatives that can explain the hit on Miyako: everyone assumes that the monster is healthy (a child or low intelligence, as opposed to broken or insane) and that it was a bare knuckle shot (as opposed to a weapon that is also obscured by the shadow). Also, I have a brain worm about this being a remnant of the Greek/Roman gods. Tenebrous/Orcus was a prince of the undead which keeps him in on the theme of Team Evil, has 35 strength and awesome blow as a feat, has greater teleport as an ability (although it's self and 50 lbs, so prolly not), and has been established as being able to survive his own death by fragmenting himself, although that is a narrative power as opposed to expressed in the rules. However, there are bunches of reasons that it falls through, like his auras, the death touch, and his wand is intelligent even if he isn't so it would tell him what to do and who he is. But a powerful creature witha powerful weapon would be more likely to hammer someone a mile.

I'm a little long in the tooth to be in suspense.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Xykon casts a mind-controlling spell on the Monster in Start of Darkness. It's unlikely that it's a god or demigod, because they're usually immune to those effects.

[Crusher]

Str 25 was a lot stronger in 2nd though, Titans in 2nd had Str 25 too (but have 43 in 3.5), Odin is Str 32 in 3.5. I could see a 2nd edition creature with a strength of 25 throwing someone through a wall.

Which is exactly why an update to 3.5 is so important. There isn't a direct stat translation. A 2e monster with a 24 STR might seem strong enough, but we know the Order operates in a 3.5e world so we have to figure out what its 3.5e STR would be. If we do find a 2e monster that seems like a good candidate, but hasn't been updated anywhere, we're in danger of running afoul of the "It isn't something I just created" caveat since Rich would have had to do the updating himself. If a 24 gets turned into a 40 STR, then great, but if its a 29, then its not. And if Rich is the only one to have done an update, how would be we know?

Of course, until we find a specific candidate its an academic discussion.

[Olinser]

Xykon casts a mind-controlling spell on the Monster in Start of Darkness. It's unlikely that it's a god or demigod, because they're usually immune to those effects.

That's not actually true. The only person to even attempt a mind-affecting spell on MitD was Xykon.

Demigods are vulnerable to mind affecting spells from anybody with an equal or higher deity rank.

So logically, if MitD is Deity Rank 0, and Xykon were revealed to also be Deity Rank 0, then MitD would not be immune to his mind-affecting spells.

I acknowledge that it would be a pretty big asspull for Xykon to be Deity Rank 0, but not impossible.

There is also the possibility that Xykon, knowing The Dark One was backing Redcloak, crafted Xykon's Ring of Deity Immunity Piercing, in case he ever had to fight The Dark One.

[rodneyAnonymous]

What part of that is not true?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's not actually true. The only person to even attempt a mind-affecting spell on MitD was Xykon.

Demigods are vulnerable to mind affecting spells from anybody with an equal or higher deity rank.

So logically, if MitD is Deity Rank 0, and Xykon were revealed to also be Deity Rank 0, then MitD would not be immune to his mind-affecting spells.

I acknowledge that it would be a pretty big asspull for Xykon to be Deity Rank 0, but not impossible.

There is also the possibility that Xykon, knowing The Dark One was backing Redcloak, crafted Xykon's Ring of Deity Immunity Piercing, in case he ever had to fight The Dark One.

How would he honestly expect someone to figure MitD out if it involves an unstated, divine Xykon or a custom item that has never been referenced?

GW

[rweird]

To my knowledge, there also aren't any DvR 0 creatures already created that'd fit (I think it has stats for Valkyries and various other servants of deities, but nothing which has casting). While that could work with DvR 0 (although I doubt that Xykon is secretly a quasi-deity), it is DvR 1 which gives access to all the cool deity abilities that could explain stuff about the MitD. DvR 0 gives you some immunities, SR, DR, increases your move speed, maximizes HD, and makes you immortal (the DR is the only thing it gives that we know the MitD has).

[ablair]

To my knowledge, there also aren't any DvR 0 creatures already created that'd fit (I think it has stats for Valkyries and various other servants of deities, but nothing which has casting). While that could work with DvR 0 (although I doubt that Xykon is secretly a quasi-deity), it is DvR 1 which gives access to all the cool deity abilities that could explain stuff about the MitD. DvR 0 gives you some immunities, SR, DR, increases your move speed, maximizes HD, and makes you immortal (the DR is the only thing it gives that we know the MitD has).

Well, that closes divine creatures for the most part. Oh well.

[Olinser]

How would he honestly expect someone to figure MitD out if it involves an unstated, divine Xykon or a custom item that has never been referenced?

GW

Xykon already explicitly spends 8 hours a day crafting items and has already pulled out 2 extraordinarily high level items in the middle of fights that had no hinting beforehand (immunity to meteor swarm against V and immunity to positive energy when Right-Eye was going to attack him). It really wouldn't be a shock to see some kind of announcement 'oh yeah I crafted this ring that lets me penetrate mind control immunity/spell immunity' when we see him next.

Especially since Redcloak explicitly has the backing of the Dark One, and Xykon clearly has no interest in helping the goblins, I have to believe that Xykon's ultimate plan includes some way to deal with the Dark One when he doesn't need Redcloak anymore. If Xykon has to deal with the Dark One he would obviously need items and spells appropriate to killing/neutralizing said deity - the fact that they helped him against MitD would just be a bonus.

[rweird]

While it is possible, D&D doesn't have many things to pierce mind-effecting stuff (Song of the Dead metamagic feat allows you to do it on undead, although I can't think of much else). No pre-existing item in D&D gives that power. If we learn he has such a thing, then we can consider things immune to mind-effecting (assuming he made it before meeting the MitD).

We do however, work with the information we have, and currently that is unannounced fiat (and a bunch of other things can be fiated too).

We acknowledge that our knowledge of the MitD is incomplete, although we act upon our current information. If in the next strip, Thor says "I made this [something] accidentally punch a paladin and her horse through a wall when I was drunk", then we'd stop looking for creatures that can punch horses through walls.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Xykon already explicitly spends 8 hours a day crafting items and has already pulled out 2 extraordinarily high level items in the middle of fights that had no hinting beforehand (immunity to meteor swarm against V and immunity to positive energy when Right-Eye was going to attack him). It really wouldn't be a shock to see some kind of announcement 'oh yeah I crafted this ring that lets me penetrate mind control immunity/spell immunity' when we see him next.

If and when Xykon produces said item, then we can reconsider. But Xykon pulling it out is a fight against a goblin is not the same as an item being required to figure MITD out that has not been presented, referenced or lampshaded. Rich is on the record as telling us he is playing a guessing game and that he is giving us clues. Xykon using magical items that Rich needs to invent on the spot to produce a magical effect seems a really convoluted way of throwing out a false clue.

Grey Wolf

[Qwertystop]

Also, though I don't know about immunity to positive energy, immunity to fire damage isn't actually that big. Average damage on the four explosions from a Meteor Swarms is 84. Max damage is 144. Energy resistance gets counted for each burst separately, so Fire Resist 36 would be enough for immunity. A Greater Ring of Energy Resistance gives fire resist 30, for 44,000 gp. Divide that in half since he's made it himself. For comparison, a Bag of Holding costs 2,500 to 10,000, depending on size, and I'm pretty sure Haley has several. For that matter, a basic Crystal Ball costs 42,000 (Xykon had one at the start), and Roy's belt costs either a little bit less or quite a lot more (I forget if it was +4 or +6). In short... near-immunity to his Meteor Swarms is quite easily achievable at that level of power and wealth, and something just a little bit stronger would probably be as well.

[Olinser]

Also, though I don't know about immunity to positive energy, immunity to fire damage isn't actually that big. Average damage on the four explosions from a Meteor Swarms is 84. Max damage is 144. Energy resistance gets counted for each burst separately, so Fire Resist 36 would be enough for immunity. A Greater Ring of Energy Resistance gives fire resist 30, for 44,000 gp. Divide that in half since he's made it himself. For comparison, a Bag of Holding costs 2,500 to 10,000, depending on size, and I'm pretty sure Haley has several. For that matter, a basic Crystal Ball costs 42,000 (Xykon had one at the start), and Roy's belt costs either a little bit less or quite a lot more (I forget if it was +4 or +6). In short... near-immunity to his Meteor Swarms is quite easily achievable at that level of power and wealth, and something just a little bit stronger would probably be as well.

Xykon didn't say 'near-immunity'. He stated explicitly he was IMMUNE to the damage. That makes it at a minimum a Ring of Energy Immunity (Fire) - which is a 240,000g epic ring.

[Qwertystop]

Xykon didn't say 'near-immunity'. He stated explicitly he was IMMUNE to the damage. That makes it at a minimum a Ring of Energy Immunity (Fire) - which is a 240,000g epic ring.

Alternately, a custom item providing Fire Resistance 6 higher than that provided by a Greater Ring of Energy Resistance. I don't think there's a formula to cover it directly, since Resist Energy stops scaling at that point, but it seems plausible as a custom item, and as the point was immunity to Meteor Swarms it would be enough.

Of course, even if it is the full Fire Immunity one... that just means that the item which provides a massive boost to his main combat tactic cost more than pocket change.

[~Corvus~]

So my housemate and I were picking through this thread, and we didn't complete it but...What if the MiTD was a God that had its memory wiped? It uses a Hello Kitty parasol, so why not the 13th Zodiac? What if it's CAT, and just lost its memory?

A memory-wiped God would be epically strong
Would have Epic DR (likely)
It is beyond mortal comprehension, counting for lack of recognition AND causes feelings of unease or horror.
Has powers it may not remember / know about, due to horrible memory loss.
The 13th Zodiac is an established thing, not necessarily always Canon, and a Created God can come out of D&D books under God creating suggestions. Memory erasure is also not a new concept.

[rweird]

Typical problems with deities are still present:
1) Immune to mind-effecting
2) As gods are omni-lingual, would not be surprising to be able to speak common.
3) As gods are unique and individual creatures, the MitD wouldn't be a "one of those."
4) Unclear whether it would have had parents.
5) Would be something made explicitly for OoTSverse, and probably violates the "can be figured out" clause.
6) Redcloak wouldn't want other gods to interfere with the Dark One's plan. Xykon probably wouldn't like such a loose cannon either.
7) While a God easily could do the escape scene (either from the Alter Reality SDA, having Wish/Miracle as an SLA, being a spellcaster), it would not be difficult for a god to animate the dead, or need 5 levels of cleric to do it.
8) If a cat, going by the appearance of the other zodiac gods, it would look much like an ordinary cat (although be larger), but still would lack paws capable of fine manipulation of objects.
9) In D&D, gods aren't normally beyond comprehension. The Twelve Gods appear in the sky when Milko falls, but no-one demonstrates such a reaction. Admittedly, the MitD's divine aura could explain it, although the MitD didn't intentionally do anything, and as an emission, darkness wouldn't block the aura's Line of Effect, so people should have had that reaction before seeing the MitD as well.

Overall, it faces the weaknesses every deity suggested faces, and additional ones, as it would be more made up for the story than various other deities, and while deities can pretty much do anything the MitD has done so far, they can do a number of things the MitD can't.

[Strill]

Grue: Can challenge any lone adventurer, has insatiable appetite and sparse descriptions mention it being horrible. However, it wouldn't desire to be lighted as MitD does, and it is not known to have magic (e.g. teleportation). Note that MitD has been in the light before joining team evil, both in the jungle and specially in the circus, and has never shown any discomfort from being in the light.

But Grues ARE known to have magic! They teleport all the damn time! You shut yourself in a dark closet and wait and a grue will appear out of nowhere and eat you.