MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

[Dr. Gamera]

I don't think it is a meaningful clue [...]

These two sentences alone make it a possibly meaningful clue:

Oh hey! I knew a guy who was like you once!

Whom would Qarr be likely to have once known that fits all the other attributes of the MitD, especially those demonstrated in the Hunters' scene?

For completeness, I should also mention that April is the MitD's month, and so he is the focus of that month's selection from the calendar's "pieces of all-new art". I don't see any meaningful clues there, though, but maybe sharper minds than mine can make something of that depiction. I understand that some people manage to not read the whole calendar at once as soon as they receive it, so for them, here's a spoiler tag:

Spoiler

Show

The MitD is playing a fighting video game in which his character is O-Chul. He's on his way to winning without taking any damage. He's got peanut butter on his controller. He's somehow holding the controller. Some peanut butter has dripped or been placed on vegetables that look like fresh Swiss chard in a bowl in front of the MitD.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Whom would Qarr be likely to have once known that fits all the other attributes of the MitD, especially those demonstrated in the Hunters' scene?

I believe that as demonic entity, Qarr is either extremely long-lived, or even immortal. He also moonlights as a wizard's familiar, so he has spent more time in the material plane than would otherwise be expected of an average demon. There is therefore no telling how many creatures he might have had contact with over his lifespan. Other than reinforcing that MitD is not unique (which we knew from the "one of these" comment from the SBGH), I'm not sure we can read anything from Qarr's comment.

I'll come back to you with my thoughts on MitD's calendar page in April, I suppose.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

Its a candidate we've already got listed, but I've found a new version of it I've never seen before that solves a significant problem with it. Not the best candidate I've seen, but also not the worst. And its been ages since I posted one, so with no further ado, I present: the Goristro. Its a 3.0 version so needs a little updating, but the link is here http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules....rticle&sid=110

I know what you're thinking. "Its a huge demon with the SLA's of a Dretch. How exactly is that a good candidate?" Glad you asked. You'll see in just a sec. Onto the 7 tests:

1. Escape Scene - Right off the bat we get to the reason I'm presenting this guy. SLA - Teleport without Error, usable once/day crucially omitting the almost always present caveat of "self plus 50 lbs". Score!

2. Tower Scene - 35 STR, plus it auto-sunders any items struck doing extra damage directly to items and as a result is particularly adept at destroying structures. One could argue this might apply to the tower walls. On the downside, its defenses are kinda mediocre. DR25/+2 turns into 25/magic, I believe, which is underwhelming. It does have Fast Healing and ~210 hp, but its still not great.

3. Circus Act - Eh, not great. Its not as iconically infernal as a pit fiend, and is described as a hulking demon having ursoid and bovine characteristics. Also, it can create a 60' radius Gloom effect, but I have no idea what that means. 5 CHR makes it weird someone would consider it beautiful. So, not terrible but not good either.

4. Demons aren't an impossible category.

5. Stat block dates from 10/2001, so its old enough.

6. Its awfully big, but not bigger than Huge. While most are over 20' tall (and some are as tall as 40'), its only "most". Its entirely possible MitD is a short one.

7. Its vulnerable to mind-affecting effects

Other Pros and Cons:
Pros
- As an infernal would be familiar with the Astral Plane
- CR22 (though that seems unreasonably high to me. Personally, I'd put it at more like 16ish)
- Unclear how it communicates, though one speaking Common would probably be surprising
- Not very dexterous (10 DEX)

Cons
- Always Chaotic Evil
- Dumb as a stump, 7 INT, 7 WIS isn't really a good fit for someone to learn Go very quickly
- "Obeys orders with a single minded devotion that would make a hierarch modron envious" which doesn't really sound like MitD

[rweird]

The Teleport Without Error thing is a good find, and its strong, although IMO, size is a problem, I also don't think that

It was updated to 3.5 in 2006 (Fiendish Codex: Hordes of the Abyss), where I believe the teleport was nerfed, at it was taken down to CR 16. DR also got nerfed. Still, Rich might have kept it more in line with the 3.0 version after it was released.

[Humanist Geek]

Its a candidate we've already got listed, but I've found a new version of it I've never seen before that solves a significant problem with it. Not the best candidate I've seen, but also not the worst. And its been ages since I posted one, so with no further ado, I present: the Goristro. Its a 3.0 version so needs a little updating, but the link is here

It gets better: the 3.5 entry includes...

• Stamp: 3/day, "produce a shock wave [...] by stamping on the ground[....] [that] duplicates the effects of an earthquake spell in an 80-foot radius"
• "If something moves and will fit in its mouth, a goristro eats it."
• They breed!
• Language: Abyssal
• Str 34, Dex 8, Con 27, Int 5, Wis 15, Cha 13
• AC 29, touch 7, flat-footed 29; DR 15/cold iron or good; fast healing 5

The illustration in the Fiendish Codex looks like "a building-sized gorilla" with a bull's head and a huge mohawk/mullet mane. "Individual colors vary from dark brown to sickly greenish-yellow to purplish-grey"

Goristros are demons; it's not surprising the Qarr "knew a guy who was like [MitD] once!" Since most goristro are 20 feet tall, it would also make sense for Qarr to comment on MitD's height.

[Bird]

Though I'm aware of the whole monsters-from-previous-editions-got updated thing, the 2E Planescape write-up of the Goristro shows him crouched down on his knuckles, which could help explain the size issue.

[Humanist Geek]

Though I'm aware of the whole monsters-from-previous-editions-got updated thing, the 2E Planescape write-up of the Goristro shows him crouched down on his knuckles, which could help explain the size issue.

Does the 2E version of the goristro have anything that would make it better fit the circus scene?

[Vendanna]

Does the 2E version of the goristro have anything that would make it better fit the circus scene?

Pertinent link to the creature (2nd edition)

Edit: I don't see anything on it being good for the circus scene.

Edit 2, from this other page (scroll down to goristro) but I don't know if its the official one.

Rock Throwing (Ex): A goristro is adept at throwing rocks weighing 60 pounds. The rocks have a range increment of 140 feet.

this one could explain Miko and his hose flying off?

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), scare (DC 13). Caster level 10th. The save DC’s are Charisma based.

Scare would affect people on the public. the goblin family probably grow accustomed to it?

[b_jonas]

On the Goristro demon,

It gets better: the 3.5 entry includes...

• Stamp: 3/day, "produce a shock wave [...] by stamping on the ground[....] [that] duplicates the effects of an earthquake spell in an 80-foot radius"
• "If something moves and will fit in its mouth, a goristro eats it."

Interesting. Where (what book or webpage) is the D&D 3.5 entry from? Can you tell whether the entry predates strip 100, whether Rich was involved writing it? What does that entry say about teleportation?

[Peelee]

On the Goristro demon,

Interesting. Where (what book or webpage) is the D&D 3.5 entry from? Can you tell whether the entry predates strip 100, whether Rich was involved writing it? What does that entry say about teleportation?

Fiendish Codex II: Hordes of the Abyss, i believe. I remember the picture in there.

[Crusher]

It gets better: the 3.5 entry includes...

• Stamp: 3/day, "produce a shock wave [...] by stamping on the ground[....] [that] duplicates the effects of an earthquake spell in an 80-foot radius"
• "If something moves and will fit in its mouth, a goristro eats it."
• They breed!
• Language: Abyssal
• Str 34, Dex 8, Con 27, Int 5, Wis 15, Cha 13
• AC 29, touch 7, flat-footed 29; DR 15/cold iron or good; fast healing 5

The illustration in the Fiendish Codex looks like "a building-sized gorilla" with a bull's head and a huge mohawk/mullet mane. "Individual colors vary from dark brown to sickly greenish-yellow to purplish-grey"

Goristros are demons; it's not surprising the Qarr "knew a guy who was like [MitD] once!" Since most goristro are 20 feet tall, it would also make sense for Qarr to comment on MitD's height.

All true. Unfortunately, while that version picks up the stomp and better defenses, it loses the Teleport. And in Fiendish Codex, Tanar'ri traits don't even include the self + 50 lb version of teleport. It reminds me of the Klurichir, in that you can *perfectly* match the MitD's abilities by cherry picking abilities between two versions of it, but neither version can get over the hump on its own. I spent a lot of time trying to find a third version that combined the two, but to no avail.

[Crusher]

Fiendish Codex II: Hordes of the Abyss, i believe. I remember the picture in there.

Not to quibble, but its Book 1, not II. Page 38. Published in June of 2006, Rich doesn't appear to have been involved.

[littlebum2002]

Its a candidate we've already got listed, but I've found a new version of it I've never seen before that solves a significant problem with it. Not the best candidate I've seen, but also not the worst. And its been ages since I posted one, so with no further ado, I present: the Goristro. Its a 3.0 version so needs a little updating, but the link is here http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules....rticle&sid=110

I know what you're thinking. "Its a huge demon with the SLA's of a Dretch. How exactly is that a good candidate?" Glad you asked. You'll see in just a sec. Onto the 7 tests:

1. Escape Scene - Right off the bat we get to the reason I'm presenting this guy. SLA - Teleport without Error, usable once/day crucially omitting the almost always present caveat of "self plus 50 lbs". Score!

2. Tower Scene - 35 STR, plus it auto-sunders any items struck doing extra damage directly to items and as a result is particularly adept at destroying structures. One could argue this might apply to the tower walls. On the downside, its defenses are kinda mediocre. DR25/+2 turns into 25/magic, I believe, which is underwhelming. It does have Fast Healing and ~210 hp, but its still not great.

3. Circus Act - Eh, not great. Its not as iconically infernal as a pit fiend, and is described as a hulking demon having ursoid and bovine characteristics. Also, it can create a 60' radius Gloom effect, but I have no idea what that means. 5 CHR makes it weird someone would consider it beautiful. So, not terrible but not good either.

4. Demons aren't an impossible category.

5. Stat block dates from 10/2001, so its old enough.

6. Its awfully big, but not bigger than Huge. While most are over 20' tall (and some are as tall as 40'), its only "most". Its entirely possible MitD is a short one.

7. Its vulnerable to mind-affecting effects

Other Pros and Cons:
Pros
- As an infernal would be familiar with the Astral Plane
- CR22 (though that seems unreasonably high to me. Personally, I'd put it at more like 16ish)
- Unclear how it communicates, though one speaking Common would probably be surprising
- Not very dexterous (10 DEX)

Cons
- Always Chaotic Evil
- Dumb as a stump, 7 INT, 7 WIS isn't really a good fit for someone to learn Go very quickly
- "Obeys orders with a single minded devotion that would make a hierarch modron envious" which doesn't really sound like MitD

All true. Unfortunately, while that version picks up the stomp and better defenses, it loses the Teleport. And in Fiendish Codex, Tanar'ri traits don't even include the self + 50 lb version of teleport. It reminds me of the Klurichir, in that you can *perfectly* match the MitD's abilities by cherry picking abilities between two versions of it, but neither version can get over the hump on its own. I spent a lot of time trying to find a third version that combined the two, but to no avail.

I think it's certainly closer than most of the other FBS entries. I mean the main problem with the Goristo is that it can't teleport. Fix that and then you're left with only the size issue, which is the same issue given for 2 FBS creatures.

Goristros are demons; it's not surprising the Qarr "knew a guy who was like [MitD] once!" Since most goristro are 20 feet tall, it would also make sense for Qarr to comment on MitD's height.

Would you mind giving the comic number for these 2 quotes by Qarr? I don't remember them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Would you mind giving the comic number for these 2 quotes by Qarr? I don't remember them.

It's in the 2016 calendar.

GW

[Kish]

What's the Goristro's Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Religion, and Spellcraft?

Does it have anything else that might explain the creature's knowledge of divine-and-arcane rituals?

[Crusher]

What's the Goristro's Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Religion, and Spellcraft?

Does it have anything else that might explain the creature's knowledge of divine-and-arcane rituals?

None whatsoever, I'm afraid. In fact, one would probably have penalties on all those skills.

However, looking at it again, I'm struck by how well suited it is to smashing holes in tower walls. When it hits an opponent, any items that it also happens to strike are both automatically sundered *and* take half the damage inflicted on the target. If you count a wall the Goristro knocks a person back into as an "item" that was also struck, then that wall is going to take a beating.

Additionally, it can throw rocks like a Cloud Giant and inflicts siege damage like a heavy catapult. How many heavy catapult hits would it take to break through a tower wall? Does it affect the damage if the catapult is launching, say, a paladin and/or her horse?

[monomer]

Not to quibble, but its Book 1, not II. Page 38. Published in June of 2006, Rich doesn't appear to have been involved.

Hmmmm, since Rich knew what the MiTD was back in 2004, he may have been using a house-ruled or non-WotC version of the Goristo at the time since nothing had been published yet.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hmmmm, since Rich knew what the MiTD was back in 2004, he may have been using a house-ruled or non-WotC version of the Goristo at the time since nothing had been published yet.

If Rich needed to use house rules, then he would not say it could be deduced.

GW

[Humanist Geek]

Pertinent link to the creature (2nd edition)

According to that website's entries for the goristro and other tanar'ri (lomion.de/cmm/tanarri.php)...

In addition to standard tanar’ri abilities, goristroi have the following spell-like powers, which they can employ one at a time, one per round, at will: detect invisibility, detect magic, fear (as a wand, by gaze), levitation, and spider climb.

Fear as a gaze attack might fit the circus scene, but if it's that effortless then it should be happening all the time. Let's look at the "standard tanar'ri abilities"...

All tanar’ri (even the least) share the spell-like powers darkness, 15’ radius, infravision, and teleport without error. They also can gate in other tanar’ri at will, as defined for each type.

Teleport without error. Goristroi and all other tanar'ri have had it from the start. Darkness is also good, because there are scenes (such as the rope-pulling one) where the MitD is in an umbrella-free shroud of darkness that moves. However, this SLA would make the umbrella unnecessary. Funny, but redundant.

Usually solitary, goristroi are only important among their kin because of their ability to absorb damage and to mete it out. They are stupid and otherwise limited in power, unable even to gate in other tanar’ri. The vast majority of goristroi encountered are in the service of some Abyssal ruler, blindly carrying out the duties assigned to them with complete fanaticism. There is never a question of retreat or morale when dealing with these brutes, though the threat of long falls can induce paralysis on the field of action. In all other respects, they always continue to follow their given commands until completion or death occurs.

An idiot who just does whatever he's told to do. To me, that sounds just like the MitD from before the invasion of Azure City (it also sounds quite non-chaotic).

I think the MitD's growth from total idiot to insightful idiot may reflect the change in goristroi's mental stats between versions: 2e goristroi have "low (5-7)" intelligence, and the 3.0 version has low Int and Wis, but the 3.5e version has decent wisdom and low intelligence. His stupidity, obliviousness, ignorance, and occasionally great insights make it difficult to pin down mental stats.

Maybe he has low Wis and high Int? I'm not sure. Then again, Belkar has a low wisdom score but insightful moments ("Isn't that the reason you losers keep me around? The only thing I'm good at is hurting people." "People don't change who they are in an instant.")

The attack mode of these monsters consists of two clubbing smashes with their long and very powerful arms for 6d4+6 points or damage each. Each is equal to a crushing blow, so material struck must be saved for. In addition, these brutes can make a stamping attack against any 6 feet tall or shorter opponent within 10 feet of them for 5d8 points of damage. They hurl boulders as cloud giants (240 yard range for 2d12 points of damage).

I don't have a sense of scale for 2e damage, but the descriptive text sounds like a match for the tower scene. Goristroi are pretty much living siege engines, and it doesn't sound surprising that one could break walls without trying to do so.

It also has a stamp attack. It's not the 3.5e SLA that perfectly fits the stomp scene, but it's there.

[littlebum2002]

Hmmmm, since Rich knew what the MiTD was back in 2004, he may have been using a house-ruled or non-WotC version of the Goristo at the time since nothing had been published yet.

If Rich needed to use house rules, then he would not say it could be deduced.

GW

From my understanding of this discussion, the Goristo definitely existed in 2004, it just didn't get the ability to teleport until 2006. Well, the MITD didn't use teleportation until well after 2006, so its entirely possible that Rich was using the "official" version of this monster and that the MitD just gained some extra powers in 2006 without us knowing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

From my understanding of this discussion, the Goristo definitely existed in 2004, it just didn't get the ability to teleport until 2006. Well, the MITD didn't use teleportation until well after 2006, so its entirely possible that Rich was using the "official" version of this monster and that the MitD just gained some extra powers in 2006 without us knowing.

We know from strip #1 that updates are obligatory. If Belkar had been able to pick and choose, he would not have accepted the size reduction of his weapons. The main issue with the Goristo, as Crusher pointed out, is that if you could pick and choose which bits of each version, you could end up with an FBS creature. But we can't. Either you pick the one that can teleport, or the one with the defences, or the one with the circus explanation.But you can't pick and choose. Yes, one could argue that MitD was upgraded between SoD and the Escape scene, but I am deeply suspect of that reasoning, because I fully believe that Rich made the decision of what MitD was, and how he would participate in the story (specifically the Escape scene) back in #100. I don't think what MitD is and what he can do has changed since then.

Grey Wolf

[littlebum2002]

We know from strip #1 that updates are obligatory. If Belkar had been able to pick and choose, he would not have accepted the size reduction of his weapons. The main issue with the Goristo, as Crusher pointed out, is that if you could pick and choose which bits of each version, you could end up with an FBS creature. But we can't. Either you pick the one that can teleport, or the one with the defences, or the one with the circus explanation.But you can't pick and choose. Yes, one could argue that MitD was upgraded between SoD and the Escape scene, but I am deeply suspect of that reasoning, because I fully believe that Rich made the decision of what MitD was, and how he would participate in the story (specifically the Escape scene) back in #100. I don't think what MitD is and what he can do has changed since then.

Grey Wolf

Oh, so again to aid in my understanding of this, there is no "official" version of the Goristo that counts as FBS (either the old version or the upgraded version), but if you pick and choose some parts from the old version and some parts from the new version, you get pretty close to an FBS monster.

Is that about correct?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Oh, so again to aid in my understanding of this, there is no "official" version of the Goristo that counts as FBS (either the old version or the upgraded version), but if you pick and choose some parts from the old version and some parts from the new version, you get pretty close to an FBS monster.

Is that about correct?

I'll be honest: I have not done any of the footwork of checking myself. I trust Crusher when he says so here. But yes, that is my understanding of the current situation re: Goristo. I believe there are three versions in contention: 2nd Ed, 3.0 and 3.5. From memory, I think 3.0 has the teleport but not the brains, 3.5 has the defences and the brains but its teleport was nerfed to self+50lb, and 2nd Ed has some kind of neat explanation for the tower?

Crusher, would you mind giving me(/us) a condensed analysis of the differences?

GW

[LordotTrinkets]

Sorry to distract everyone from the talk about Goristros, but I'm wondering if the bonus content of 'Blood Runs in the Family' has been considered. I'm not sure if there is anything of real use there or not, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

Spoiler: MiTD at the Gobotopia Party and some personal speculation

Show

It seems to be confirming that MiTD has at least a decent Wis score, because of how he fast talked the guard (arguably unsuccessfully though).

What is off about this comic is how he casually mentions Kabomani Tapirs. Some rudimentary research shows that Kabomani Tapirs live in the South American forests, but it seems like they can also be sighted in wetlands and plains. I see four things that this could mean. The most likely one is that MiTD just met one while in the rainforest. It could also, however, be hinting at what his normal habitat is or even that he is something specifically from South American legend. Finally and least likely (if not impossible) is that MiTD is smarter than he's letting us on to believe.

I'm not sure if any of that is useful, I just wanted to see if anyone else sees any meaningful data in there.

[Crusher]

I'll be honest: I have not done any of the footwork of checking myself. I trust Crusher when he says so here. But yes, that is my understanding of the current situation re: Goristo. I believe there are three versions in contention: 2nd Ed, 3.0 and 3.5. From memory, I think 3.0 has the teleport but not the brains, 3.5 has the defences and the brains but its teleport was nerfed to self+50lb, and 2nd Ed has some kind of neat explanation for the tower?

Crusher, would you mind giving me(/us) a condensed analysis of the differences?

GW

Certainly. Your description is pretty much spot on, though there are actually 4 versions to potentially discuss, in that there are 2 from 3.5e. There's the Fiendish Codex version and an Enworld version from 2004 (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthr...=1#post1587879).


Boiling them down, the key points relative to the other versions are:

3.5 (Fiendish Codex)
Pros: Good Stomp, Good defenses, Decent WIS, Definitely reproduce
Cons: No teleport at all, Introduced too late

3.5 (Enworld)
Pros: Good Stomp, Good Defenses, Decent WIS, Definitely eats
Cons: Not strong enough (29 STR), Teleport is self+50 only

3.0
Pros: Multiple siege-like abilities, Teleport w/o Error 1/day, Stomp attack but doesn't really match the scene
Cons: Mediocre defenses, Really really stupid

2E
Pros: Siege damage, Teleport w/o Error 1/day, Stomp attack but doesn't really match the scene
Cons: Would have been updated which would wreck its defenses, 2E so stats unknown, Really really stupid

The 2E and 3.0 versions are kinda similar and the 3.5 versions are kinda similar. In a nutshell, going from 2E/3.0 to the 3.5 versions entails a specific trade. You lose the Teleport and specialized siege abilities, but in return you gain good defenses, a stomp that works much like MitD's, and a good WIS.

As a side note, all 4 have some version of a Fear or Scare-like ability which I suppose could explain the Circus Scene. Turns out the "Gloom" ability allows them to make it a little darker in the area around them. Not Darkness, just somewhat darker in a 2E, not super well defined kinda way. Anyway, its not a Circus explanation.

IMO, the questionable defenses of the 2E and 3.0 versions is a problem, but losing the Teleport is a deal-breaker. The Stomp and WIS are nice (the 2E and 3.0 versions also have Stomp attacks, but they're just different melee attacks, whereas the 3.5 version Stomps are Earthquak-y things), but if it can't Teleport other people, its not a serious candidate. So that rules out the 3.5 versions (plus, the Fiendish Codex version isn't old enough, and the Enworld version is probably the weakest candidate of the four anyway, figuratively and literally, thanks to its 29 STR).

The 2E version is problematic because it doesn't have any stats and would have been updated anyway, which how I ended up championing the 3.0 version (more specifically, I didn't think any of the other versions worked for various reasons and then I came across the 3.0 version and said "Hmm, this is interesting...").

[Kish]

In my opinion, the "no reason at all to recognize the ritual" is a deal-breaker for all four versions. I recognize that that conversation with Tsukiko is not officially a BS...er, Big Scene, however.

On an unrelated note, what's the procedure for getting a scene considered for inclusion as a Big Scene here?

[littlebum2002]

Interesting stuff

Yeah, that does present a problem. It sounds like the 3.0 version is closest to what we've seen, and I would even warrant it being an FBS contender, but the forced conversion to 3.5 really does it in.

Man, you got me all excited, too.

In my opinion, the "no reason at all to recognize the ritual" is a deal-breaker for all four versions. I recognize that that conversation with Tsukiko is not officially a BS...er, Big Scene, however.

On an unrelated note, what's the procedure for getting a scene considered for inclusion as a Big Scene here?

This, plus what's the procedure for getting a creature considered for inclusion as a FBS contender?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In my opinion, the "no reason at all to recognize the ritual" is a deal-breaker for all four versions. I recognize that that conversation with Tsukiko is not officially a BS...er, Big Scene, however.

On an unrelated note, what's the procedure for getting a scene considered for inclusion as a Big Scene here?

From section 4a:
"For major reworking of the first post, such as the issue with the definition of FBS, removing or adding whole sections, etc, it will need to be put to general vote. To request the voting to happen, you need the normal +2 votes."

So, get two others to agree that we need an addition to the FBS (I'm sorry, I'm tentatively against it at this time), and I'll set up a general vote.

FWIW, my main concern with adding that to the FBS list is that I'm very fuzzy on what our current explanations for it are right now. Off the top of my head: Telepathy and other mind reading, "high" knowledge(arcane?) (if so, how high?), high INT/WIS? (if so, how high?)

Edit:

[W]hat's the procedure for getting a creature considered for inclusion as a FBS contender?

From Section 4a:
"To add something to the first post needs two positive votes to do so. "Positive votes" means two more people in favour of the idea than against it.

In normal operation, that essentially means convincing me to add it. The original proponent and me make the 2 votes, assuming no-one objects. If I disagree, the proponent will then need two other posters to agree with him/her (assuming no-one else but me disagrees). And so on: if 3 people are opposed, five need to be in favour, etc."

In general, the moment to bring it up is after I've NOT put a creature in the FBS after a refresh - like Crusher did with the other demon we voted on.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

I am formally proposing that the scene where the creature in the darkness recognizes at a glance that Tsukiko has been studying "half a ritual" should be added to the Big Scenes. Criteria being "something that could explain the creature recognizing what Tsukiko was studying as half a ritual"; could be high (edit: "past 30" to mirror the current Strength requirement) Knowledge: Arcana or Knowledge: Religion, could be a spell-like ability, but something that could explain it--neither more nor less vague than the stomping (where the criteria is "massive strength or earthquake-causing ability") or the circus scene.

Anyone else with me here, or am I alone?

[MesiDoomstalker]

I am formally proposing that the scene where the creature in the darkness recognizes at a glance that Tsukiko has been summoning "half a ritual" should be added to the Big Scenes. Criteria being "something that could explain the creature recognizing what Tsukiko was studying as half a ritual"; could be high (edit: "past 30" to mirror the current Strength requirement) Knowledge: Arcana or Knowledge: Religion, could be a spell-like ability, but something that could explain it--neither more nor less vague than the stomping (where the criteria is "massive strength or earthquake-causing ability") or the circus scene.

Anyone else with me here, or am I alone?

I second this motion, on a minor quibble. Identifying the ritual as partial ritual would be a Spellcraft check (if its a skill check), or through the use of the Detect Magic, or (Greater) Arcane Sight spell (SLA, passive ability or likewise).

EDIT: Looking at skill rules, the likely way to ID the ritual would be a DC 30 (or higher) Spellcraft check OR a DC 71 or 91 Spellcraft check. The first is for a "Understand a strange or unique magical effect, such as the effects of a magic stream. Time required varies. No retry." while the second is for the Epic skill usages, where you can ID the basic effects of a Magic Item with a DC 50+CL of the item and to ID all the effects of a Magic Item with a DC 70+CL. This is assuming the ritual has an Epic Caster Level, but no more.